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Microsoft Raises UK Cloud, Software Prices 22% After Brexit-Fuelled Pound Drop (techweekeurope.co.uk)

Reader Mickeycaskill writes: Microsoft is to substantially increase its prices for software and cloud services prices offered in British pounds in order to accommodate the sharp drop in the currency against the US dollar in recent weeks. Beginning in January 2017 on-premises enterprise software prices will go up by 13 percent and most enterprise cloud prices will increase by 22 percent, bringing them into line with euro prices. Microsoft said it isn't planning to change its prices for consumer software and cloud services. The value of the pound has fallen by about 18 percent since the EU referendum on 23 June.

214 comments

  1. Not just bitcoin by shaitand · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Apparently these things happen even with much larger volume fiat currencies as well.

    1. Re:Not just bitcoin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Wow. That was fast. From Brexit to Fiat Currency in one post. Whew, you guys sure are.... um, well, right there with you useless opinions.
      I know you think gold-based currency is probably the best idea and that somehow the world's current SOPHISTICATED system of value-backed currencies is rigged, or something, but you will just need to get over it.
      K. Thnx. bye.

    2. Re:Not just bitcoin by MightyMartian · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The fact is that metals-based currencies are far more arbitrary in valuation of a currency than a fiat currency. Why should a currency for any nation be entirely unlinked from factors like trade surpluses/deficits, GDP, interest rates and the like? What is it about gold that makes it so great for pegging a currency to? Saying "gold-backed is better" is really just picking an arbitrary element, giving it an arbitrary value, and somehow that is supposed to be a good way to value a currency?

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Not just bitcoin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol, you think gold has utility value that is similar to the value that hoarders assign to it?

      awww... that's cute

      fyi, people who have a lot of gold would really like it if you keep on doing what you are doing, because otherwise they would loose just about as much money as de beers would if everybody figured out how worthless diamonds are (beyond being used for an abrasive)

    4. Re:Not just bitcoin by alvinrod · · Score: 1

      Also, the usual argument that with metal-based currencies inflation is not possible is also false. There are several examples from history, which a primary one being when Mansa Musa passed through Egypt while making a pilgrimage to Mecca, he brought so much gold with him and gave it out so freely that it destabilized the economy. Spain also had similar inflation problems when they began mining silver in the new world. The supply far outstripped the ability to generate equivalent economic ability at the going rate which lead to inflation.

      Gold (and silver) being used as currency has more to do with historical reasons than them being the best solution. It's sufficiently rare that you can't just create a bunch of it on your own, it's easy to work with so minting coins isn't prohibitively difficult, it doesn't corrode or react with most other common elements so it keeps up well, and it's not easy to counterfeit either, at least not since Archimedes. It also helps that they're shiny and you can make jewelry out of them so they are a good status symbol of wealth in and of themselves. Alternatively they'd suck to use for any real weapons so there was not alternative use in the past either outside of dishware and trinkets.

      Fiat currency is perfectly fine. The problems are when the people who control the printing press get out of control. Money is just a commodity by which we easily facilitate trade so that we don't need to barter in all goods. Make more of any commodity and its value decreases according to supply and demand. If the UK wanted to fix the problem they could destroy some of the Pounds taken in as tax dollars. I'm generally surprised that governments don't do this more often, but I imagine it's because they couldn't explain to most people why they decided to "burn" $5 billion dollars instead of giving it to the poor or something like that.

    5. Re:Not just bitcoin by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It does not have an intrinsic value that makes it worth weighting an entire currency on, and it is, in fact, rather vulnerable to price collapses itself. Both gold and silver have been witness to significant depreciation events, such as when the Chinese Empire began bleeding its silver reserves in the 18th and 19th century.

      Metal-based currencies are no panacea, and are highly inflexible, and worst of all, don't do anything to stave off worst case scenarios like recessions and depressions.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    6. Re:Not just bitcoin by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      A similar thing happened to global silver prices due to Quin China's opium trade, at first as silver flowed into China as it exported opium, and then reversed itself when the opium was then shipped back to China.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    7. Re:Not just bitcoin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Going back onto the gold standard in 1925 caused a recession.

    8. Re:Not just bitcoin by Serge_Tomiko · · Score: 2

      All currencies are fiat currencies. I mean seriously - do you not understand how gold standards work? It's not like there is a "free market" for gold. It's called a gold standard because a governing authority agrees to say a particular currency is worth X amount of gold.

      Further, gold standards have nothing to do with internal economics. Gold standard or not, banking, credit creation, sovereign creation, and taxation works the same. A gold standard simply restricts exchange rates so that one country can't competitively devalue.

      Regardless, all money has value because of a government fiat, regardless of what it is.

    9. Re: Not just bitcoin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes there is a free market. Gold is traded daily two times a day in London. There the price of gold per aunce against USD, GBP and EUR is determined due to supply and demand.

    10. Re:Not just bitcoin by shaitand · · Score: 1

      As someone else pointed out, the price of gold actually is set on a free market, if you fixed your currency against a gram of gold that would automatically determine the value vs other currencies.

      But more to the point, wth does bitcoin have to do with gold?

    11. Re:Not just bitcoin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The main reason they don't, is because within reasonable limits, a lower local currency is better for the economy.

      It sucks for people buying stuff from the US via Amazon - but that's the point. A low local currency makes it easier for local goods to compete, and so exports increase and imports drop.

    12. Re:Not just bitcoin by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      It's not like there is a "free market" for gold.

      Yes there is.

      It's called a gold standard because a governing authority agrees to say a particular currency is worth X amount of gold.

      Not a single country in the world does this. Zero. There is no "gold standard".

      The value of the dollar is based on faith that people in power will continue to be competent and prudent.

      The value of gold is based on faith the many people will continue to be greedy and selfish.

      Which is a better bet?

    13. Re:Not just bitcoin by caseih · · Score: 1

      You were misreading the OP's tenses. There once was a gold standard. And he was saying that under the gold standard, when it was in place, everyone agreed to say a particular currency is worth X amount of gold. Under such a system, the value of the gold is not under a free market, or else the currency would be too.

    14. Re: Not just bitcoin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instrinsic or not, for the likes of us it makes no difference. It's way beyond our means to do anything about it.

    15. Re:Not just bitcoin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes that 25% drop over the past year is equivalent due to a massive change to the political and economic structure of the country is equivalent to the daily 20-50% fluxuations of bitcoin.

    16. Re:Not just bitcoin by jareth-0205 · · Score: 1

      But more to the point, wth does bitcoin have to do with gold?

      It's the same idea. People think gold standard is great because it's a relatively fixed amount of mineral to peg your currency against which gives it a fixed volume of currency. Bitcoin has the same property but created mathematically / limited by processing power available.

      One of the problems of course is that having a fixed amount of currency limits the size of your economy, which is a bad thing. But the gold standard is an easy concept to understand, so people like it.

    17. Re:Not just bitcoin by shaitand · · Score: 1

      " People think gold standard is great because it's a relatively fixed amount of mineral to peg your currency against which gives it a fixed volume of currency. Bitcoin has the same property"

      You are correct in saying this is a problem with gold. It is not a problem with bitcoin, yes there is a fixed number of whole bitcoin, but unlike gold bitcoin is digital and you can create more units simply by moving the decimal place and trading smaller units. If bitcoin were used as a global currency for example, whole units of bitcoin would likely be a unit only exchanged between nations or on a balance sheet for the wealthiest individuals.

    18. Re:Not just bitcoin by shaitand · · Score: 1

      On another note.

      Gold derives it's value from being scarce and pretty. Bitcoin derives its value from being extremely easy to transact even at global scale, outside the control of any central body, and being the only potential currency that can't be counterfeited. Having a fixed number of whole units is just something required to make the math work, unlike gold bitcoin is infinitely divisible. Instead of new units being created by a central bank new units go into common use by people in the market deciding to start transacting smaller bits. The word "coin" in bitcoin is unfortunate, it has made any people think of the whole unit as coins when wide adoption of bitcoin always meant the common unit transacted would be a tiny fraction of a "bitcoin"

    19. Re:Not just bitcoin by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Which has little to nothing to do with bitcoin. Gold and Bitcoin are both deflationary but the similarities end there.

    20. Re:Not just bitcoin by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Bitcoin doesn't have a market the size of the pound or the euro. Huge shifts are common in small markets because a single large trader can shift them around.

      While the shifts are a legitimate factor to consider if looking at bitcoin from a speculation standpoint today they aren't really a valid indicator at this point of the viability of the instrument itself. If the equivalent of the US economy were using bitcoin as the currency then I highly doubt you'd see shifts larger than you do with any major currency.

    21. Re:Not just bitcoin by jareth-0205 · · Score: 1

      Bitcoin derives its value from being extremely easy to transact even at global scale,

      I think the scalability problem with the blocksize limit is chipping into that advantage (to say the least). A useful currency transacts within seconds, not hours.

      outside the control of any central body

      But is in the control of the Chinese miners. I for one prefer a local elected body.

      There may well be room for a cryptocurrency in the world, but this one is so seriously flawed I wouldn't touch it.

    22. Re:Not just bitcoin by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "But is in the control of the Chinese miners. I for one prefer a local elected body."

      Elected doesn't mean much with rigged elections like we have in the US. But there is nothing stopping governments and/or major banks from mining investments of the scale they spend on financial networks and infrastructure they build now. That would dramatically speed transaction times and solidly put an end to worries about some upstart being able to get a controlling interest in mining power. Now that the hardware has made all the easy gains it's really the same problem as market volatility, small scale equals a volatile market.

    23. Re:Not just bitcoin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "bitcoin is infinitely divisible"
      false
      0.00000001 is the smallest division of 1 BTC

    24. Re:Not just bitcoin by shaitand · · Score: 1

      False, that is an arbitrary setting in the code not a hard limit.

    25. Re:Not just bitcoin by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "A useful currency transacts within seconds, not hours."

      Last I checked bitcoin transactions take a few minutes and not hours. That is a little slow for local transactions unless you count the time you wait to be able to pay and extremely fast for international transactions. If you count the real time a transaction takes, which includes the time during which it could be reversed by one party it is much faster than CC payments and is generally faster than the time it takes to go to the atm to do a cash transaction.

      If you think transactions take hours you must be waiting for the maximum number of confirmations before counting any transaction. That is completely unnecessary. Unless you a transacting hundreds of thousands of dollars or more three confirmations is plenty of security, if you are engaging in transactions typically under $500 one is generally sufficient since the person paying you has no control over who will validate the transaction.

    26. Re:Not just bitcoin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with that statement was (and is) that agreement does not work. The gold standard, when it functioned made currency X worth Y grams of gold by actually giving Y grams of gold in exchange. Putting your gold where your mouth is, so to say. This broke down not when governments stopped saying their currency was worth Y grams, but already when they stopped honoring that claim.

      Realistically, most mainstream currencies at the moment are pretty stable in worth, as can be seen by price stability and exchange rate stability. Fluctuations in the gold versus currency rate are better explained as changes in the value of gold. The UK pound drop is a major exception, but there is also no doubt about the cause.

  2. How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How long is Britain going to keep saying "This is fine" for?

    1. Re:How long? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      The pound is the most mismanaged currency on the planet.

      Britain fixed it's problem with unfunded civil service pensions by taking them 'off budget', accounting tricks.

      Getting the Pound completely untangled from the Euro makes it an even better currency canary.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    2. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The pound is the most mismanaged currency on the planet.

      Duh. Anything based on the length of a king's schlong is going to be.

      It's time they go metric. And as a bonus, you can buy 2.2 times more stuff with a Kilogram.

    3. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The pound is the most mismanaged currency on the planet.

      Duh. Anything based on the length of a king's schlong is going to be.

      It's time they go metric. And as a bonus, you can buy 2.2 times more stuff with a Kilogram.

      The UK has a queen. Yet her schlong is certainly bigger than yours.

    4. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except for the US dollar. The only reason that's still a legit currency is because oil is priced in it. If that were removed, the entire rotten U.S. currency structure would collapse - and it would be curtains for you.

    5. Re:How long? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      No. Not even close. The last 10+ years has seen a massive increase in accounting tricks on both sides, you can't trust anybody's numbers, but England set new standards in BS.

      The only hope for the Dollar and Euro is that the collapse of the Pound puts 'the fear' into both political bodies and they stop printing.

      The reality will be that capital flight from the Pound will hold up the Euro and Dollar for a few years, then one of them will pop as well. China will also be 'triggered' by the Pound, unless it goes first.

      It's not so much oil trading that supports the Dollar. It's overseas cash reserves. When you live in a 'workers paradise' a mattress full of US dollars (as bad as they are) is still one of the safest stores of value available to you.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    6. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. The cash in mattress reserves will be wiped out in about 5 seconds of trading if oil stops being priced in dollars.

      That's an apocalypse for the US currency. Sterling has a lot of giant boat anchors dragging it down, but no single -event destruct button.

    7. Re:How long? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Nobody has to keep money in dollars to trade in oil. Currency exchange is instant and computerized. Leaving assets in non-local currency is a risky proposition. If nations are leaving money in dollars, they should look to their local currencies problems. Just like the mattresses full of dollars, there is a reason.

      There are many players holding enough Dollar/Euro/Renminbi/Pound debt to crash any of the currencies. But doing that would be blowing their own peckers off. We are in a financial MAD situation.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  3. Something's fishy by halivar · · Score: 1

    Only enterprise software, and not consumer software and cloud services? I think maybe Brexit is a pretense here.

    1. Re:Something's fishy by avandesande · · Score: 1

      Well they were giving Windows 10 away, so it must be worth nothing.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    2. Re:Something's fishy by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Lets arbitrage the fuck out of them. British versions will just need a few extra 'u's 'i's and 'e's deleted after grey market American import.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    3. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Every time a brexiter in denial with "oh they're just using brexit as an excuse".

      No, you dumb bastard - if the GBP is worth 20% less then business either have to absorb a ~20% loss or increase prices. There's no conspiracy here. There's no clever accounting being hidden you by MAINSTREAM MEDIA LIES to make it look like the GBP has not seriously lost value when actually it hasn't. The fact is that the currency is no so useful atm. Just as investment in the UK in general is now not so attractive, not least because of a huge amount of uncertainty that investors hate - all that's really worth doing is buying chunks of UK business on the cheap, like our loss of our best technology asset, ARM.

      It might be worth doing in the consumer sector because 1) they're facing serious competition atm 2) it's a smaller market anyway. But other business can't do this. They either run on much smaller margins, or they don't have huge reserves to release the pain more slowly. Sure, Carney has been making excellent use of public money to buffer things for now - his was the "emergency budget" that took place entirely within the executive sphere - but eventually he is going to run out of other people's money, to quote the old bat, and QE would just devalue the pound further.

      I run a small business, but I'm already way worse off because everything I import costs a fuck-ton more and I can't afford to just bump prices up accordingly when my larger competitors already have huge warehouses of stock and have the power of scale to have negotiated pricing agreements. All the OMG RED TAPE that supposedly comes from Brussels is a myth, and what few anti-small-business legislation exists is hardly likely to be removed by the prevent government, whose ear is deaf to all but the largest enterprises.

      Brexit is mostly a democratic expression of xenophobia that, because of no minimum turnout requirements, means the majority has to suffer heavily thanks to a third of the country being thick.

      Mind you, I could be way worse off. Those northern working class voters who thought this would be to their advantage are going to be in for a hell of a ride.

    4. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      I wonder if you would be protesting the turnout requirements if the vote had gone the other way?

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    5. Re:Something's fishy by unixisc · · Score: 4, Informative

      Okay, your imports cost more, so you should buy British stuff to have it cost the same. As an added bonus, your product will be cheaper than imports, making you more competitive......

    6. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      so you should buy British stuff

      This is the kind of parochial stupidity that got us into this mess. If London broke away, should I "just buy London stuff"? Cornwall? It doesn't exist.

      Each country - depending on its economic development, natual resources, fiscal policy, educational policy, public and private capital availability, public spending policy, workforce skills, geography, etc. - has its own strengths and weaknesses. This is what happens when you have a global market economy but comprising sovereign states, and it's a great thing, with countries specialising. Your computer is built in China using technology developed in America and Israel financed by bankers in London and so on. Ultimately, raw materials come from wherever the mines are, and that usually isn't Britain.

      As to buying locally, I'm happy to buy locally where I benefit from a higher quality product with better support. I'm not even against sanctions against countries that abuse their people. But believing your country can succeed by currency manipulation / artificial barriers rather than by having the better product - do you not see how damn stupid that is? I'll be fucked if we're going to go back to a 17th century "buy from the local village because that's the only option you have available" fantasy England just because our country has failed where e.g. China has succeeded at investment in (and profiting from) infrastructure at home and abroad.

    7. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I am against referendums in principle, because I believe that parliamentary democracy is a hell of a lot better than asking the whole population, "Do you prefer the status quo, or do you prefer anything else?" where "anything else" is then decided by executive order / royal prerogative.

      But if you are going to have one, I'd propose a minimum turnout and supermajority of 2/3 for a constitutional change, similar to US constitutional changes. Not that it matters much, because in legal terms the decision to trigger Art.50 has been an executive one that just happens to have taken notice of an advisory referendum result - the Referendum Act itself described no legally binding consequences.

    8. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I run a small business, but I'm already way worse off because everything I import costs a fuck-ton more and I can't afford to just bump prices up accordingly when my larger competitors already have huge warehouses of stock and have the power of scale to have negotiated pricing agreements. All the OMG RED TAPE that supposedly comes from Brussels is a myth, and what few anti-small-business legislation exists is hardly likely to be removed by the prevent government, whose ear is deaf to all but the largest enterprises.

      Just as a counterpoint, as someone who also runs small businesses, but in my case tech-based ones that import very little but export information products and services, I have almost exactly the opposite experience.

      The pound had been propped up for a long time and a lot of economists were saying it was overvalued long before Brexit was on the radar. Dropping it back to a more realistic level has already caused a big boost for our sales to customers over in continental Europe and beyond. It's dropped further than the necessary correction because of Brexit, but pinning the entire drop on that is unrealistic.

      As for that EU red tape, it has been a significant burden on several occasions over the past few years, from consumer "protection" rules that don't really protect anyone but have substantial compliance costs through to the whole VAT mess where the EU seems to have done exactly the opposite of what it's supposed to do by making us suddenly have to deal with 28 different systems instead of one.

      EU membership has its pros and cons, but in this specific area, it's very clearly not an advantage.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    9. Re:Something's fishy by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      I run a small business, but I'm already way worse off because everything I import costs a fuck-ton more and I can't afford to just bump prices up accordingly when my larger competitors already have huge warehouses of stock and have the power of scale to have negotiated pricing agreements.

      My business is doing a lot better because we export services rather than import.

      All the OMG RED TAPE that supposedly comes from Brussels is a myth

      You have absolutely no idea how much crap like the cookie policy cost massive IT projects.

      and what few anti-small-business legislation exists is hardly likely to be removed by the prevent government, whose ear is deaf to all but the largest enterprises.

      I'm skeptical of claims that the common fisheries policy, the common agriculture policy, the EU Environmental Policies as minor issues which large organisations had methods of working around would be unlikely to be removed considering that they also impact government departments significantly despite the fact the reasoning behind a lot of legislation behind is not beneficial and irregularly changes because of majority voting mechanisms that benefit the majority of countries that wish to exploit resources and enforce specific types of quotas that actually work against the goals of the policy groups.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    10. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you dumb bastard - if the GBP is worth 20% less then business either have to absorb a ~20% loss or increase prices.

      Huh? No educated individual ever claimed anything else did they? According to the IMF, economists, financial analysts and anyone with two brain cells to rub together -- GBP was overvalued before the Brexit vote. To simplify it for you, that is because we were a net importer. The strength of a fiat currency is proportional to exports.

      Brexit is mostly a democratic expression of xenophobia that, because of no minimum turnout requirements, means the majority has to suffer heavily thanks to a third of the country being thick.

      Or more informed than you think? Not that the dysgenic policies of the EU are equally as racist as the eugenic policies of the Nazi's or anything? Rest assured, the slave race of the future will (unfortunately) be bred in Germanistan. "White flight" has already started and I include jews in that statement (even if many do not identify as white).

      Mind you, I could be way worse off. Those northern working class voters who thought this would be to their advantage are going to be in for a hell of a ride.

      I live in the North and work in manufacturing. The cost of imported raw materials has increased along with the export value of our labour. I am proud to be a wealth creator as opposed to a rent-seeking parasite. I have never been busier and I thank you for your concern!

    11. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      xenophobic? the biggest democratic exercise in British history? don't like asking the people? Sorry Mr Jun-il, I see you're playing the "you're a racist for voting brexit" card. jog on you close minded bigot

    12. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I must add that this is an excellent point. Despite higher costs for imported raw materials, the drop in Sterling is working wonders for the UK manufacturing sector. Politicians on the left and right have argued and clamoured for a "rebalancing of the economy", i.e. boosting manufacturing; now they have it. Don't believe me? Read the UK's latest PMI report (https://www.markiteconomics.com/Survey/PressRelease.mvc/f55855e5e87b4e9dadc0e3cbea1c285f). To quote: "The weak sterling exchange rate remained the prime growth engine, driving higher new orders from Asia, Europe, the USA and a number of emerging markets."

      Besides, those of us who read the financial press (as I do) will be well aware the central banks have long complained of needing a currency devaluation and a bit more inflation to help western economies. Britain has, quite inadvertently, achieved precisely this.

      Rule Britannia? :-)

    13. Re:Something's fishy by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Lets arbitrage the fuck out of them.

      This move doesn't create an opportunity for arbitrage. It removes it.

      Here is a free lesson in international marketing:
      Q: How do you price an American product for the British market?
      A: You change the dollar sign to a pound sign.

      This simple rule of thumb has been true for at least 30 years.

    14. Re:Something's fishy by plopez · · Score: 1

      Yes, any time something goes wrong, blame Brexit

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    15. Re:Something's fishy by plopez · · Score: 2

      When Britain joined the EU there were a few "bumps" along the way. A few sacrifices had to be made (e.g. good paying manufacturing jobs), and some "economic realignment" had to occur. The same is true of Brexit. But overall it makes Britain a more affordable destination for labor an manufacturing. Just wait, the leisure industry will also boom.

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    16. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the whole VAT mess

      I had to contend with this 3 times over with different companies -- a complete joke! Does anybody know what to do when you purchase services from a US company with an EU VAT No. but no indication of the tax on the invoice? I've never had an answer from either of the accounting firms (inc. a chartered accountant) that my businesses use.

      VAT was originally introduced in France as an alternative to income tax. It was introduced into the UK as a means to pay off war reparations, these are are now paid off. Why are we still even paying VAT and if the revenue is required, why can we not switch to a sales tax which would be an order of magnitude easier to administer?

      Just to explain the nightmare for those who may not be aware. There are 28 nation states in the EU and many have different rates and all have different rules for the applicability of those rates. For example; In the UK, books are exempt but what are the rules for the other 27 countries? If you sell to a bussiness cross-border within the EU then you may supply under reverse charge so long as you indicate this and record the business customers VAT ID. Without the VAT No, or if your sale is to a consumer then you must charge at the rate in the country of purchase or you are committing a criminal offence. So what is the rate in that country and what are the applicable rules? The EU would collate and publish this information before criminalising businesses for non-compliance right? Wrong!

    17. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      And that's just B2B VAT, which is relatively sane compared to the way B2C works as of last year.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    18. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But believing your country can succeed by currency manipulation / artificial barriers rather than by having the better product - do you not see how damn stupid that is?

      You have your politicians to thank for this. After over a decade of media portrayal of how China artificially devalues its currency and erecting trade barriers, and all the while see China prospering year after year, you say people are stupid to actually believe that would work?

    19. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what matters is the net effect of A minus B. Most sober predictions I've seen are for a significant hit after that is done, not a large recession but a noticeable decline in GDP. One example that matters is that as a result of globalisation, many commodities are simply not made in the UK any more. Some manufacturing may re-start to fill in the gaps, but it would seem to be a risky proposition long-term. Anything else will have to be imported at whatever price that demands, and a statistic that won't change is that the UK has a large population on a small group of islands.

    20. Re:Something's fishy by Malc · · Score: 2

      Oh stop with the Project Fear (TM) already. Just be more positive.

    21. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      Representative democracy has many merits, to be sure. And you can argue that you should require a supermajority for big changes, like leaving the EU would be. That's reasonable, but I disagree that a minimum turnout is needed; if people can't be arsed to get out and vote, then that's too bad if things don't go their way.

      On the other hand, it is also quite interesting how big the disconnect is between most MPs (who were pretty heavily "Remain") and the general populace. Makes you wonder if there's a better way to set up the UK system, since there was a large disconnect.

      Overall, I find it amusing how many Remainers want to redo it because of the relatively narrow margin, but would be screaming bloody murder if the Leave camp had wanted another one if the vote had gone the other way.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    22. Re:Something's fishy by Malc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Have you forgotten the IMF ballout, the Winter of Discontent and later Maggie going begging for a rebate because Britain was the "sick man of Europe"? We were shagged before we joined the EEC, and I hope leaving it's successor doesn't take us back to those dark days.

      Talking of this recent event bringing back manufacturing jobs is bullshit that some politicians -- especially on the left -- like to peddle, but in fact if manufacturing comes back it will more likely be automated. Anyway, this depreciation doesnt allow us to compete with China's labour costs, or any of its competitors now that it is getting too expensive. When the pound dropped after the 2008 financial crises, the relative side of our trade gap didn't shrink... it's not price that's preventing people buying our products.

      If half the international banking industry leaves then we'll end up with a gap in governement finances that will cause them to make cuts more painful than anything George Osbourne did in the last six years, I can guarantee that a boom in exports won't cover this difference. And as the economy contracts the size of the interest payments on the goverment's debts will become the fifth biggest expense... finance industry wins again.

    23. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2

      Those predictions are certainly consistent with what the more informed people I know have been saying. In the short term, it seems almost certain that the UK economy will drop significantly in GDP terms. It's possible that this effect will continue for several years, depending on what if any post-Brexit deal with the EU gets worked out. But the worst of the doom-and-gloom predictions probably aren't realistic, because there are also areas such as those we were discussing before where the EU has been a negative influence even if it's a net benefit overall, and there are some effects like the devaluation of Sterling that may provide some cushioning effect for the economy.

      In the longer term, it seems the jury's out. The UK already trades more with non-EU partners than EU ones, and trade with non-EU partners is growing faster so the gap has been widening. It will surely widen even faster in future if the remaining EU leaders follow through on their scorched earth rhetoric, though at some point it's likely that the adults will step in and prevent that. Meanwhile, the EU has serious economic problems of its own still bubbling under the surface, particularly within the Eurozone. As we've been seeing with TTIP and CETA, claims that the EU is somehow better placed to negotiate new trade deals with foreign partners than an independent UK may be exaggerated. And if the coming elections in places like France and Germany go in favour of eurosceptic/nationalist parties, which is certainly a possibility at the moment, the EU may not exist in its current form within a few years anyway.

      For any of these factors to mean Brexit leaves the UK economically better off, it seems we're talking about 5-10 years at a minimum, though, unless something catastrophic happens within the EU sooner than that. And even a decade from now, if events turn the other way with the EU stabilising but wider global trade suffering for some reason, maybe Brexit will prove to be unhelpful economically even in the longer term. In reality, I doubt anyone has enough information and foresight to make useful predictions that far out.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    24. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is just what seems to be happening in Scotland.

    25. Re:Something's fishy by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Is that the Scotland where Remain won in every district?

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    26. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People voted for MPs

      People voted for Brexit

      MPs and remoaners claim there is no democratic mandate for brexit. If that's true, there's no democratic mandate for MPs either. The vote was clear: out of the EU, the single market, proper border controls and laws made in this country.

      So suck it up. You lost.

      You are going to blame every single thing on Brexit until you find something that sticks... and if nothing sticks you will sabotage something.

    27. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Translation: I get Euro subsidies. WAAAH. Brexit is evil.

    28. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm currently betting on the GBP to fall even lower and have therefore delayed buying a new workstation PC from the UK (used to be too expensive in comparison to countries with traditionally cheap hardware prices like Germany before the pound fell).

      The problem is that it will probably rise again if the UK manages to make good Brexit deals next year, which I believe is possible - nobody wants the UK to really leave all trade partnerships. So I don't know when to buy.

    29. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say there. Did you reply to the wrong comment?

      My previous comment was agreeing with someone else's view that Brexit will almost certainly reduce GDP in the short and possibly medium term, and then noting that there are various ways it might work out better in the longer term but no-one really knows what will happen that far ahead. I didn't say anything about subsidies, nor express any other opinion on Brexit.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    30. Re:Something's fishy by Coisiche · · Score: 2

      You fail to understand Brexiter logic. By suggesting that it is not unquestionably and undeniably certain that the UK will be the best country in the world for leaving the EU you have outed yourself as a remainer. For them, saying "nobody can know what will happen" == "worst doom and gloom prediction".

    31. Re:Something's fishy by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Overall, I find it amusing how many Remainers want to redo it because of the relatively narrow margin, but would be screaming bloody murder if the Leave camp had wanted another one if the vote had gone the other way.

      Do you find this just as amusing? It's Nigel Farage saying that if remain won at 52% he'd want another referendum.

      Amusing?

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    32. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I don't really understand that sort of generalisation, though I've certainly seen it a lot lately. About 16 million people voted to remain and about 17 million to leave. That's a lot of people, the majority of the adult population of the UK, so no doubt there were some delusional extremists and some just plain nasty people in there, but I imagine most of those millions of people probably weren't like that, on either side. Certainly I've talked to plenty of people from both camps who have been reasonable and quite well informed, even if they came down on opposite sides of the debate in the end. I guess I must be living in a different country to the one I keep reading about.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    33. Re:Something's fishy by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Scotland voted to stay in by 62% to 38%.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    34. Re:Something's fishy by Maritz · · Score: 1

      So suck it up. You lost.

      You are going to blame every single thing on Brexit until you find something that sticks... and if nothing sticks you will sabotage something.

      Your position is that none of the shit that goes down over the next 5-10 years is due to Brexit? LOL.

      I just want you racist tossers the fuck out of my country. Hopefully it'll happen soon-ish.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    35. Re:Something's fishy by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Rule Britannia? :-)

      You've still made the most hilarious self-inflicted wound that a democracy has made on itself in the modern era. I'm looking forward to the negotiations with the EU where you think you can have tariff-free trade without labour movement. That's going to be fucking popcorn time.

      Enjoy your blissful, white, foreigner-free country.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    36. Re:Something's fishy by Maritz · · Score: 1

      I will personally be way more positive about it once England and Wales fuck off on their own and Scotland and NI are out of the UK. Once that happens, I honestly couldn't give a fuck what the "UK" does.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    37. Re:Something's fishy by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Nothing bad can ever be attributed to Brexit.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    38. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least you spelled "xenophobic" correctly, I'll give you that.

    39. Re:Something's fishy by Malc · · Score: 1

      As a Londoner, I'd be very happy if Sadiq leads us out with you (and maybe Bristol and Manchester will get the idea too), and let the rest of England fester in their poverty and bigotry.

    40. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, that's a great idea. Except we're an island nation that depleted all our worthwhile resources decades ago, that doesn't have enough landmass to feed ourselves, and that as a result is a net importing nation.

      We can't buy a lot of stuff British due to the very simple physical laws of the universe, it's impossible to buy raw materials on our island that no longer physically exist on our island.

      We didn't turn into a net importer for shits and giggles, we did it because we rely on imports to exist, and short of deporting a third of our population (no xenophobes, migrants don't make up even close to a 3rd of our population, so don't even go there) there's no solution other than to import. We didn't turn to services because Margaret Thatcher's poodle was kicked by a coal miner and she took it out on the industry or whatever the fuck theory people invent for themselves, we did it because it become economically unviable to extract, like most of our raw materials, and because hence services is a thing we can produce and offer without that dependency on dwindling/non-existent raw materials.

      The idea that the British economy can be self-sustaining is absolute fantasy, unless we're willing to drop back to a pre-industrial revolution lifestyle, and even then we're going to have to kill millions of each other as we fight over the internal food production level that is sustainable.

      People need to understand the economics of our country, and why we import, and why we can't always just "buy British", it's an ignorant argument from an ignorant mindset that completely ignores reality. There are countries that could do this - countries like Canada that have a wealth of natural resources relative to their (relatively) tiny population, but countries like Britain, Japan and so forth that have massive populations relative to their landmass, and who have long been industrial nations that have stripped their respective islands dry just cannot physically sustain themselves without outside imports. The best we can try and do is make our exports outweigh our imports, but when our import prices go up our export prices from produced products based on those imports must inherently go up, completely wiping out the benefit of a decreased pound.

      There are of course other issues, just this week manufacturers pointed out that whilst orders are up, the other problem they have other than cost of material imports, is that they can no longer get enough workers with the skills to do the necessary manufacturing to fill those orders anyway. So even if we go down this route of completely trying to change our economy (even though doing so is a fight against the laws of both nature and economics), we still need more migrants now too, which is exactly what Brexiters primarily (or secondarily) voted against.

      Brexiters want to have their cake and eat it too, they're living in fantasy land and their nonsense project is already being shown up to be the farce everyone on the other side always told them it will be. The upside is as someone pointed out further up, the people who primarily voted for Brexit are the ones who will be first to suffer, I hope they appreciate the misery that they voted for. I can weather the economic turmoil, and if the shit hits the fan, there are plenty of other fantastic countries crying out for my skillset and experience. Them? No, they're fucked, and deservedly so, no doubt they'll still blame the politicians though rather than accepting any fucking responsibility for their own actions as usual.

    41. Re:Something's fishy by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      Your position is that none of the shit that goes down over the next 5-10 years is due to Brexit? LOL.

      Of coruse not. It's the immigrants fault. And Brussles (though Belgian immigrants get little if any blame). If anything bad happens after Brexit it's because we didn't Brexit hard enough.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    42. Re:Something's fishy by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      But overall it makes Britain a more affordable destination for labor an manufacturing.

      How? If we start doing well economically then the pound will rise and that will wipe out the saving. The only way to keep economical is to keep doing badly or simply scrap environmental regulations and kill all of our rivers all over again.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    43. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, it is also quite interesting how big the disconnect is between most MPs

      Perhaps that is related to intelligence levels. Surely your average MP is smarter than your average voter (at least I fucking hope that is the case). Also MPs have a much better view of the political and economic impacts of the EU, as it is relevant to their job, so would have a better idea of the impacts. That does lead to the question of why some MPs campaigned to leave. For the case of Farage, it is most likely because he is a horrible racist bastard (he takes care to hide his racism, but its clear if you look closely). And BoJo the clown did it just as a ploy to advance his political career.

      The disconnect is still a real issue that needs to be dealt with, but by MPs listening to and actually doing something about the real problems people face rather than just giving them a brush off, then so many people wouldn't have felt disenfrachised and been so easily convinced that the EU was the cause of their problems.

    44. Re:Something's fishy by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Two examples of why companies can't just "buy British stuff".

      There was a guy who sells bike parts on the radio. Apparently the best parts are made by some Japanese company, but he had to stop selling them because the fall in the Pound wiped out his margins. So now he sells Italian parts. When asked if he could buy British, the answer was no. No such companies exist, and if someone started one it would take years to get the experience and skill together to be competitive, and even if they managed to do that they would still have to import the raw materials because the UK closed most of its steel manufacturing capability and doesn't mine much any more. Plus there are patents, and he needs to sell into Europe anyway because the UK market is only so big. If tariffs come in, he will be forced to raise prices even more than he already has.

      The company I work for makes equipment for the water industry. We have our metal machined in the UK, PCBs made and populated here. Even so, the companies that do all that buy their raw steel and PCB material from China. The parts on the PCBs are made in China, Japan and Europe. I don't know if the UK even has the fabs to produce complex integrated circuits on a large scale.

      The UK market is only 65m people. We couldn't survive if we just sold to the UK. We have to operate globally. Brexit is already costing us contracts and money as companies worry about what it will do to their five year expected support periods.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    45. Re:Something's fishy by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      We haven't seen the shrinkage really get going yet. Next month when Nissan announces that it will be running down Sunderland and moving new production elsewhere will be the first major causality, followed by various banks. The short term boost from the weak Pound won't help when the stuff simply isn't being made here any more.

      Don't forget though that rising inflation counters a lot of that growth. Unless wages are going to start rising much faster than they have been, what little growth there is will only help the wealthy.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    46. Re:Something's fishy by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The loss of well paid manufacturing jobs had little to do with the EU. We transitioned our economy to services, because manufacturing in the far East was getting too good to compete. Who wanted a rust bucket British car with crap electrical system when they could have a much more reliable, cheaper Japanese model?

      These days the only well paid manufacturing jobs are provided for foreign companies like Nissan, who coincidentally are about to leave the UK due to Brexit.

      Tourism may get a boost, but of course it makes it much more expensive for UK citizens to go abroad too. I've lost thousands of Pounds this year on the GBP/JPY exchange rate alone.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    47. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, your imports cost more, so you should buy British stuff to have it cost the same. As an added bonus, your product will be cheaper than imports, making you more competitive......

      How do you know what he buys is available from British manufacturers? If just buying and selling within a country actually worked then we would all be doing it but its been proven time and time again protectionism doesn't work.

    48. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder if you would be protesting the turnout requirements if the vote had gone the other way?

      What kind of nonsense statement is that? If it had gone the other way then nothing would have changed ergo turnout requirement is pointless. FYI Nigel Farage is on record saying that if the result was 48-52 against him that it would be "far from over".

    49. Re:Something's fishy by mjwx · · Score: 1
      This, 1000 times this.

      Every time a brexiter in denial with "oh they're just using brexit as an excuse".

      No, you dumb bastard

      My favourite incorrect justification is "its just a currency fluctuation"

      No it isn't, fluctuations go up and down by a few pence over the dollar, a drop by 20% is a big mother fucking drop, not a fluctuation.

      A 20% drop in the pound is a 20% increase in the cost of everything you buy compounded by the fact that it's now 20% more to transport. The rise in the cost of fuel alone will do that.

      Just as investment in the UK in general is now not so attractive,

      Forget new investment, we're not even going to keep the investment we have. Why would Honda keep making the Civic in Swindon if they have to pay the import tax in the EU... They'll just import them from Thailand where it's cheaper to make them and close the Swindon factory. Same for all other major manufacturers, Ford, Vauxhall (GM), Nissan, Toyota. Even Aston Martin and JLR are foreign owned. The UK car industry has a real chance of being reduced to 5 guys in a shed in Leicestershire in a few years.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    50. Re:Something's fishy by mjwx · · Score: 2

      Okay, your imports cost more, so you should buy British stuff to have it cost the same. As an added bonus, your product will be cheaper than imports, making you more competitive......

      Erm, you should have just wrote "I know nothing about economics" because that is effectively what you said.

      This is my second favourite incorrect argument.

      It is incorrect because new industries do not spring up just because things become more expensive due to the logistics and economies of scale. When you invest in new infrastructure you need a reasonable expectation you will get a return on your investment, selling low margin/high volume items exclusively to an impoverished nation is not conducive to an acceptable ROI.

      Secondly, you wont be able to make most things cheaper than you can import them for because you have to pay for raw materials. If you want to build nails in the UK, you need to import the steel. An entire steel working ecosystem is not going to spring up to support a few nail manufacturers.

      Thirdly, the UK is an advanced nation with high wages, wages will need to increase to maintain the same quality of life. Likely scenario is that the quality of life drops a little whilst wages increase a little. This means higher costs for manufacturing. As the UK is one of the worlds most advanced nations, we cant sell the widgets we make to other, richer countries because there aren't any, so any widgets made in the UK need to be affordable to the people who make them (Paging Henry Ford, Mr Ford to the white courtesy phone please). If it is not feasible to build your widgets in good economic times in the UK, it sure as shit is not feasible to do it in bad economic times.

      So no new industries are going to pop up, things we import will become more expensive whilst fewer people will buy what we export because we've made an enemy of our largest trading partner... Just look at what is happening to Russia. It could be as bad as Russia because we haven't got eastern Europe by the short and curlies with out gas.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    51. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Given that a stay decision could easily be reversed to a leave decision after (say) 5-10 years, but a leave decision might not be reversible for a generation or more (would require every EU member to agree to let the UK rejoin for a start), there is a logical argument for (e.g.) requiring two consecutive leave victories with 5 years in between or a 60% leave vote.

      Brexitters are so gleeful and triumphalist because they know they've locked us into their path indefinitely, so even if 70% of the population thinks it's a total disaster and wants to reverse the decision in 5 years, it's pretty much impossible. If they'd lost, they would have just tried for another referendum every few years until they got their way, at which point they no longer believe in the democratic right of the people to change their minds.

      Also, given that it's their future and they've got much more of a stake in it, 16-17 year olds should have been able to vote as per the Scottish indyref.

      Anyhow, it's a moot point now. We're in a lull before the storm at present. The shit will hit the fan when much of the banking industry and car industry leave and we fail to get any decent trade deals in any reasonable time scale.

      The the brexitters will blame it all on the foreigners and the 'remoaners' for 'talking the country down' (some of them already want us locked up for treason if we say it's going to be a disaster). They will never admit fault no matter how bad things get.

      The UK goverment is split down the middle between hard/soft brexit and will probably collapse in the next two years (even though there's probably no 'soft brexit' available). The opposition is laughably incompentant (and that's being kind). We're all doomed!

    52. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So suck it up. You lost.
      Translation: We got a very narrow victory on one night where the vote went our way. All further debate and democracy on this matter and anything related is now cancelled for ever, even if half the leave voters change their minds.

      You are going to blame every single thing on Brexit until you find something that sticks... and if nothing sticks you will sabotage something.

      Translation: When it all goes to shit the brexshitters will accept no responsibility for what they've done and will blame it all on the imaginary 'sabotage' of the 'remoaners'. Brexshit at its best.

    53. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who wanted a rust bucket British car with crap electrical system when they could have a much more reliable, cheaper Japanese model?

      Feminists and people who care about social justice would. See, the reason Japanese cars (and Japanese goods in general) are associated with quality is because Japan is deeply rooted in patriarchy.

      Being a patriarchy, Japan is fine with assigning strong gender roles, leading to extreme division of labor, with men holding all the "important" positions, like CEOs and engineers and mechanics who run companies that design and make those quality cars and electronics

      Women are expected to focus on other things. If they work at those car companies, they are most likely OLs - office ladies who do "less important" tasks like paperwork and pouring coffee. They could work part time, or take on less "prestigious" jobs, or jobs that require less training/education. Or they just don't work at all and be good obedient housewives. Japanese patriarchy is fine with women staying home while the husband basically lives in the office and only see the kids on Sunday.

      But this strong division of labor means each gender can focus on one set things, and do those things very well.

      Strong gender roles is also one reason Japan and some other foreign companies can still manage to pay their workers well. In a patriarchy, women accept that they will be paid less, so the men can be paid more. This doesn't mean the women will be poor through, as men are expected to take care of his wife and kids. Furthermore, in Japan, one gender role for women/the wife is to control the household's expenses. It's not uncommon that a Japanese husband would hand over all their money to his wife, and the wife controls how the money will be spent, giving an "allowance" back to the husband for his personal spending.

    54. Re:Something's fishy by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Is the EU the UK's only trading partners? Big, yeah, but all? There is still a lot of other countries - US, Canada, Australia, India, South Africa, New Zealand and a whole lot of others. And in India, UK tends to be a lot more economically influential than the US. The fall of the pound sterling would make British goods more price compatible w/ the Indian markets

    55. Re:Something's fishy by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Said the captain of the Titanic as the iceberg punched a hole below the water line. How about you stop with the denial and come to terms with what Brexit is doing.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    56. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not that the dysgenic policies of the EU are equally as racist as the eugenic policies of the Nazi's or anything?

      Christ, it's hard to find an outspoken Brexiter on the Internet who isn't just aching to mention that when it comes down to it they're mad racists who think the EU is involved in some anti-white conspiracy.

      The EU makes relatively few decisions about migration of non-whites to Britain, as they tend not to come from the EU. If you restrict EU migration, you'll just increase proportion of non-white immigrants. Enjoy :D

    57. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want a good laugh, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      Brexit voter is asked for his reasons for voting to leave the EU. Cites not wanting to comply with the "law forced upon us by the EU", but then can't name a single one. Later, blames immigration only to actually say it's mobs of any people, immigrants or not, that he has a problem with.

      Sums up the mentality of a large amount of Brexit voters IMHO.

    58. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We transitioned our economy to services, because manufacturing in the far East was getting too good to compete.

      We 'transitioned' the economy because those in charge refused to accept that the cost of living in the UK had to fall for us to remain globally competitive. I work in manufacturing and have been having these conversations since the '90s.

      As Bartlett said; "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function". Successive Western governments should have been working towards sustainability. Instead they proceeded with economic forecasts based on growth and thereby delivered the current worldwide economic contraction.

    59. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      On the contrary; if you're deciding between two choices, turnout is important whether or not one is the status quo.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    60. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      Yep! Farage is a fountain of amusement. Hypocrisy, especially blatant hypocrisy, is funny to me.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    61. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      It could be; on the other hand, the number of MPs (or US Reps/Senators, for that matter) that have stupid views or promote outdated, false, or misleading statistics is relatively high, so I'm not sure "intelligence" is what separates them from the people. In addition, MPs are supposed to represent the people; they can try to convince people on issues, but should also listen to them to some extent.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    62. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The currency value went down before the ink was dry.

      This is proof that the entire "system" of determining value is corrupt.

    63. Re:Something's fishy by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Britain would have to import materials before it can export, as it has precious little raw materials of its own. The low pound will not help in that regard. Yes, there are other markets, but currently ~45% of all UK exports go to the EU. Unless you can instantly line up comparable trade deals with the non-EU countries as soon as Britain leaves the EU, it will be OK. As that is going to be practically impossible, Britain will spend years without these trade deals, which will be hell for the small businesses trying to import/export. So yeah, if you gloss over the details and focus on a few aspects and ignore the timeframe in which they must come to fruition it can seem positive. Anything else will reveal the stark problems facing British businesses in the years to come. (Do you know how long it takes to negotiate a trade deal? Did you also know that Britain is forbidden from entering into trade talks while it is part of the EU, that no country will want to start trade talks while Britain's future relationship with the EU is unknown (as one can't negotiate when the cards are yet to be written) and so these talks will have to start after Britain has left the EU?)

    64. Re:Something's fishy by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Doesn't Britain's trading with other countries fall under its membership of the EU? Should Britain leave the EU wouldn't it have to forge those trade agreements anew, from a less powerful position? That wouldn't be fun, especially as the British government has repeatedly said it is pitifully low on negotiators...

    65. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Certainly beneficial in the short term. But MINI (i.e. BMW) just moved their SUV production to the Netherlands. On the relevant timescales (~10 years) they apparently prefer to be inside the EU. Unlike fluctuating exchange rates, EU membership is a pretty stable advantage.

    66. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boom headshot.

      Calling someone a racist is the surefire way to signal to everyone that you lost.

      Well done.

      P.S. You can stay in my country. You just have to stop trying to give it away.

    67. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look up the REMAIN voters - hlghlights include - I want to remain because otherwise:

      I can't travel abroad
      the Nazis win
      We'll lose all our human rights
      Muh employment rights (ignoring that they are higher in the UK than the EU)
      World War 3 will start
      The economy will collapse

      or my personal favourites - the ones holding up pro-EU flags and yelling, but don't know who their MEP is when asked.

      Remoaners are a bunch of emotional fuckwits and low information bedwetters. You're opinions are a mixture of terror at the thought of the UK making its own decisions, Stockhold syndrome and straight up fucking Quisling bullshit.

      Unlike you actual pro-EU proto-Nazis, I'm content to have you live in the UK as long as you stop trying to give it away to anti-democratic bastards like the EU/EC

    68. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      EU subsidies.

      Your post, and you personally, stink of them.

    69. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      It's not quite that simple, unfortunately.

      The EU operates what is termed a "single market" or "internal market", which actually includes the EU member states plus a few others via separate international agreements. This is a region in which the "four freedoms" apply: goods, services, labour and capital may be moved freely between the participating states as if within their own country.

      This relatively close relationship is generally seen as good for trade between members of that single market. It means there are no government-imposed tariffs on imports/exports, there are common standards and regulations for what you're allowed to sell throughout the market, and so on. This is why some people in the UK are currently arguing that on leaving the EU as a whole, we should seek an agreement to remain within the single market (a form of "soft Brexit").

      However, membership of that single market isn't necessarily a win in all respects.

      One issue is that the freedom of movement of labour means member states can't limit immigration from other member states. This has been controversial recently for a number of reasons. In the UK specifically, some people argue that immigration is putting an unsustainable burden on our national infrastructure. Others argue that immigrants are both helpful and in some cases necessary to keep our economy running and support that very infrastructure. Some point out that while we receive many immigrants from elsewhere in the single market, many of our own citizens also choose to work or retire abroad, and that travelling within the EU without visas is beneficial. Across the EU more widely, there is an issue at the moment with the number of refugees from elsewhere in the world who are entering member states close to troubled areas but then able to move around within the EU relatively freely. And on top of all of this, there are all the "free movement, but with strings attached" arrangements where the politicians and diplomats have been trying to dance around the problems without giving up the benefits.

      There has probably been more objectively wrong nonsense said about immigration than any other issue around Brexit, but unfortunately it's long been a difficult subject and a certain part of the population in most EU states, including the UK, isn't very nice when it comes to foreigners. And just to throw one more ingredient into the mix, of course the UK also has people moving to and from non-EU states, but our visa and immigration system is overcomplicated, dysfunctional and a huge burden on those people and businesses involved. The natural assumption is that the same currently awful system would apply to those coming from the EU in the event of a "hard Brexit" where we cut ties like single market membership as part of leaving the EU, which some people see as too high a price to pay pragmatically, even if they don't in principle mind immigration from the EU being subject to the same rules as from anywhere else.

      Another issue with the single market is that it is also what is called a "customs union". That means that while trade within the market is free, any member state importing from outside the market is required to impose a certain level of tariffs, regulations, and so on. That is usually seen as bad for trade with partners outside the EU single market, for much the same reasons that trade within the market is good. For the UK specifically, although it does a lot of trade with the EU, it actually does a bit more now with other partners outside the EU, and the external trade is also growing a bit faster. And of course a lot of goods and services are both provided and consumed internally within the UK. As long as the UK is within the scope of the EU arrangements, it therefore has to apply the EU rules even to internal matters and to trade with non-EU partners. Depending on who you ask and what line of business they're in, this is either no big deal or a crippling burden on trade and our national economy.

      Crucially, the UK is also not free to negot

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    70. Re:Something's fishy by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I don't know how you can possibly read anything about EU subsidies into anything I've written here, but if it makes you feel any better, my businesses have never taken any form of EU subsidy. In fact, from the point of view of my own businesses, the EU probably does more harm than good as things stand today, and in isolation we'd be a bit better off without it. But of course we're not operating in isolation, so the interesting questions are really about whether the EU is a net win or net loss in the big picture, and those are much harder to answer (despite the number of people who seem to think it's an easy question and if you voted the other way from them you're obviously some sort of clueless idiot).

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  4. resistance is futile by frovingslosh · · Score: 2, Funny

    That will sure punish the Brits for wanting to preserve their own sovereignty. Any indication that you resist the New World Order must be punished. It would serve them right if they moved to Linux and open source solutions wherever they could and ended up paying Microsoft a lot less rather than a lot more.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
    1. Re:resistance is futile by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What exactly does "sovereignty" mean here? Britain is literally sending out feelers all over the world looking for trade deals that will, now wait for it, limit its sovereignty. That is the nature of treaties.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:resistance is futile by bondsbw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The word "sovereignty" is like "freedom". People throw around those words as if they can do anything they want. Reality says you still have to work with your peers, it's just up to you to judge the best way to do it (and to accept the consequences when things start to suck).

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    3. Re:resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. This proves that the elites aren't really out to screw the common guy and have their interests at heart.

    4. Re:resistance is futile by stephenmac7 · · Score: 0

      With most trade deals, you know what you're getting. With the EU, you have to submit to whatever Brussels mandates. There's a big difference.

      --
      "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." -- Judge Gideon J. Tucker
    5. Re:resistance is futile by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except Brussels itself is a construct of all the EU members, and it is the pooled sovereignty of all EU members that counts. This claim that Brussels is some sort of overlord that controls Europe demonstrates a great ignorance of what the EU is.

      Beyond that, all but the most hardened Brexiteers would love to stay in the Common Market, which was why they kept talking about how Britain could still remain part of the ECC.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    6. Re:resistance is futile by subanark · · Score: 1

      And if they instead lowered the price, would you say "Microsoft is trying to push people to use their services by discounting them and latter increasing them, when everyone is too far invested?"

    7. Re:resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the fuck have you been smoking? -the currency dropped in value by a similar amount. It's a price adjustment because the sterling is worth less now.

      It's not little green men or the evil Zionist network. It's plain old economics.

    8. Re:resistance is futile by OhPlz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The point is that Britain is agreeing to those trade deals. The treaties are not agreed upon by the EU and forced onto Britain. Being able to negotiate your own treaties is part of being sovereign.

    9. Re:resistance is futile by OhPlz · · Score: 2, Informative

      How many times do EU members want to bail out Greece? How many terror attacks must be tolerated that were aided by the EU's freedom of movement between member countries? The Brits had enough of it. That's democracy. France may be next depending on how their upcoming election goes. The ideals of the EU sound great but they aren't working out to every member nation's satisfaction. Once again, Europe has Germany to blame for a lot of what's going on.

    10. Re:resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And Britain forcing its deals on Scotland... turtles all the way down.

    11. Re:resistance is futile by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How many terror attacks can you link to freedom of movement? And the Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone (which is different than the EU) and it is pretty clear Germany wants Greece to remain as well.

      And if the Brits had enough of it, how come so many Brexiteers were hanging on to the hope of remaining in the ECC (which, by the way, would still mean some degree of freedom of movement).

      Frankly, I think Brexit was just an episode of national pique, and I suspect if you reran the referendum now, with at least some of the ramifications becoming clear (such as Norway objecting to continued British membership in the ECC), Remain would have a solid win.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    12. Re:resistance is futile by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Because Microsoft absolutely isn't using Brexit as an excuse to hike prices.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    13. Re:resistance is futile by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      And Scotland had their own "Stay" versus "Leave" vote, and decided to stay.

      Your point, please?

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    14. Re:resistance is futile by OhPlz · · Score: 1

      Which could have Scotland secede. They've been talking about having the vote again post-Brexit. Ultimately, it's up to the governed to decide how they want to be governed. Right?

    15. Re:resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As demonstrated with the Canadian trade deal, they have to be unanimous, so a trade deal at the EU level could only be 'forced' onto the UK if the UK had already agreed to it.

    16. Re:resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Use your brain. Everybody outside the UK could just go there and get Microsoft's service 22% cheaper. That's just not possible.

    17. Re:resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Britain forcing its deals on Scotland... turtles all the way down.

      So you are saying that Britain is a sovereign country (really the UK, but let's not quibble), but that Scotland is not a sovereign country.

      Why, yes, you are absolutely correct.

      Is there any other observations you would like to make? Maybe that Glasgow is not a sovereign country, and that Texas is likewise not a sovereign country?

    18. Re:resistance is futile by unixisc · · Score: 2

      Actually, the drop in the pound sterling is good news for the Brits, bad news for people like the Indians where their jobs are being offshored to. If Britain can get the pound drop to where it equals, say, 10 rupees, they would have the knickers of India in a twist

    19. Re:resistance is futile by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      So you have one of the terrorists in the Bataclan attack, but there were also EU nationals in the Bataclan and Charlie Hebdo attacks.

      As to the period of disruption, with several major banks saying they're pulling out of London, you're looking at the diminishment of the City, which is one of the major economic engines of Britain.

      All I see here is the usual Brexit tripe which amounts to "Migration bad, Europe bad, everything will just be fine!" But if that were the case, then why were the chief Brexiteers yacking on about ECC membership during the referendum campaign, almost as if they knew damned well that Europe was Britain's most significant trading partner, and loss of open access to the Common Market would be enormously damaging.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    20. Re:resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

    21. Re:resistance is futile by unixisc · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The EU was fine as the EEC - European Economic Community. It got ruined when Chancellor Kohl and President Mitterand tried to perfect what was already good enough, and make it into a more political union. The Eurozone sounded like a great idea, except that the Deutschmark was no way the same as the Drachma or the Lira. End result is a currency that is dominated by one member, and that member taking the economic hits of all the populist moves of countries like Greece and Portugal

    22. Re:resistance is futile by frovingslosh · · Score: 2

      Bullshit. Texas is sovereign. A joint-resolution by a country (The United States in this case) does not legitimately allow a country to take over Texas without the consent of its residents. American actions in the American Civil War have resulted in an illegal military occupation of Texas. And Texas is one of a handful of states to pass resolutions to remind Obama that, even if it is a state, we still have that pesky tenth amendment that hasn't quite been destroyed yet.

      --
      I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
    23. Re:resistance is futile by unixisc · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Freedom of movement within the EU is not a bad thing, so long as we are talking about Europeans. Not Muslim migrants from the Middle East or North Africa who want to Islamize the place. It's perfectly fine that someone from Lisbon should be able to go to Kiev w/ little more than some sort of identity proving that he's a citizen of one of the members. It's not fine that the EU mandate its members to take in those Muslims from anywhere, and then make it impossible for them to be checked at border crossings of various member countries.

    24. Re:resistance is futile by Zocalo · · Score: 4, Informative

      Demonstrably bullshit, and exactly the kind of falsehood that the Leave campaign was spouting during the UK's referendum - at least in the way that you are positing. Check out the latest news on the ongoing negotiations over the EU-Canada trade deal that is currently on the rocks because *three* regions of one EU member state (Belgium) are objecting to the deal. Everyone else - all the other 27 members of the EU and Canada want to go ahead, but can't because of those three provinces, and the terms of the deal (5MB PDF) are entirely public knowledge - unlike things like TPP and TTIP where the US is involved and insists on secrecy.

      The real irony of the situation (and the reason for my caveat); the three regions that are blocking the deal are Wallonia, the French speaking region of Flanders... and Brussels itself (albeit as a province of Belgium rather than as the EU).

      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
    25. Re:resistance is futile by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Isn't Scotland something that would be considered a state or province in any other country in the world? Yeah, once upon a time, it was an independent kingdom, but ever since their king became the king of England AND Scotland, it has ceased to be a country. Same for England. And Wales - I can't even begin to figure it out.

    26. Re:resistance is futile by OhPlz · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree. I'd love to live in a world without borders. The trouble is that it's a double-edged sword cutting off heads. I'm not sure how practical it would be to search some at the border and not others if you're trying to be an open border society.

    27. Re:resistance is futile by OhPlz · · Score: 2

      EU nationals by birth, sure, but their lineage is anything but. These aren't long established French or Belgian families who have suddenly decided to become terrorists. They are "migrants" or close to it. The longer this plays out, the more "nationals" they'll have. If they don't win by fighting, they'll win by changing the population from within. The media won't show it, but there's a rise in the acceptance of various nationalist parties throughout Europe. The stage is set for something really nasty to happen. The people are angry, and not without reason.

      We'll have to see how the markets play out. Those banks may change their mind depending on the outcome of the upcoming French election. Either way, the Brits knew what they were getting into.

    28. Re:resistance is futile by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      At least one of the Bataclan terrorists was tied to an individual that entered via Greece disguised as a refugee.

      So you're saying it's okay if the terror attack happened in Athens instead of Paris, and damn that free movement of labour that's exactly why the French are under attack instead of say their foreign policy decision.

      At least there's no terror attacks in the USA thanks to your insane border protection /sarcasm.

    29. Re:resistance is futile by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Yes we have the freedom to re-negotiate the same trade restrictions we had before we gave up the trade restrictions. Because if there's one thing we don't like it's unelected people telling us what to do!

      Happy and glorious
      Long to reign over us
      God save The Queen!

    30. Re:resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Europe should give the UK a price
      After all who cares about the risk of weakening the security and credibility of the whole region in a time were is global turmoil, and risking all the stability of the European economy.
      How dare those Europeans expect the support solidarity and sacrifice of and economy that they helped to stabilize and help grow up to the point of becoming (before brexit) the fourth riches economy
      Of course they should treat the UK special, rules and agreements only apply to others right?
      There wasn't enough trouble was it?, lest bring a Brexit to brighten up the day, besides Europe will survive this, never the less thanks U.K, great timing
      How is that thing about rats and ships
      P.S you can keep all those commonwealth immigrants (after all they share a lot more the values and culture of Britain than those pesky Euro neighbourhoods aren't they?)

    31. Re:resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being able to negotiate your own treaties is part of being sovereign, until China says to Ms May short the Hincley nuclear power station issues or ill be trouble and she does an U turn on her previous decision

      On 8 August 2016, Liu Xiaoming, China's ambassador to Britain, wrote that the UK risked major power shortages by 2025, the Hinkley Point C project is ready to go ahead, the 'UK could not have a better partner than the China General Nuclear Power Corporation', and 'the China-UK relationship is at a crucial historical juncture'.[44]

      In August 2016, it was reported that 'civil servants are looking to see if there is any loophole, clause or issue in contracts yet to be signed that allow the Government to pull back without huge loss and while also saving face',[45] that Beijing 'will resist any compromise on the deal',[46] and that one option under consideration is to approve Hinkley Point C but delay a decision on the Bradwell reactor.[47]
      In September 2016 the UK government announced approval for the scheme with “significant new safeguards”.(China don't fuck us please safeguard)

      Next: see how well the "part of being sovereign" works with the US corporative machine

    32. Re:resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Queen doesn't tell anyone what to do.

    33. Re:resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any indication that you resist the New World Order must be punished.

      They think the same way: https://www.yakimawa.gov/council/

    34. Re:resistance is futile by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We don't really have much choice. We are going to have to do deals with bigger countries and groups like the US and EU, or face economic ruin. If they say jump, we can only ask how high or fall back to WTO rules and suffer the economic consequences.

      Gibraltar is also likely to lose its sovereignty and become jointly run by Spain. There is no other way, short of independence perhaps as part of Scotland (!), that they can save their economy which is entirely reliant on there being an open border. Spain can simply refuse to agree to any kind of UK-EU trade deal unless they get Gibraltar, and the UK government will throw them under the bus.

      Leaving the EU has massively reduced our bargaining power and attractiveness. Watch as companies pull out, starting with Nissan next month. In practical terms we have much less power than we did previously, and what we gained is mostly useless because e.g. what kind of a choice is kicking our Johnny Foreigner vs. economic ruin?

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    35. Re:resistance is futile by Maritz · · Score: 1

      You're blaming the EU for terror attacks. LOL, that is fucking pathetic.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    36. Re:resistance is futile by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2

      Where I come from, we use a special term for the children of immigrants to our country. We call them "Americans".

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    37. Re:resistance is futile by Maritz · · Score: 1

      but it's likely that Britain will emerge stronger for it.

      We'll see. Saying it doesn't make it so.

      If it were JUST britain, I'd be happier about it, and in fact glad to see you go. The whinging of racists takes up too much of my eyeball time as it is.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    38. Re:resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People from Gibraltar would rather nuke the place that become part of Spain...

    39. Re:resistance is futile by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Terrorism is only an issue because (a) the media loves it because it makes them money and (b) the politicians love it because they get to ask for extra powers and smaller civil rights and (c) nationalists and racists love it because it gives them justification for their views.

      In my opinion, none of that makes terrorism a real, existential problem. It should be calmly dealt with as a criminal act.

      The big deal we make out of terrorism makes it stronger. You beat terrorism by taking away its voice, ignoring it and marginalising it. Look at Sarkozy, bigging up IS and wigging out about how big and scary they are.

      A lot of people secretly love terrorism because it justifies their ignorant views.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    40. Re:resistance is futile by Maritz · · Score: 1

      It's a very, very, good thing that that deal is getting blocked. It's fucking rotten to the core.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    41. Re:resistance is futile by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2

      American actions in the American Civil War have resulted in an illegal military occupation of Texas.

      That's what tends to happen when you play at insurrection and lose. Grow up and deal with it.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    42. Re:resistance is futile by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      The UK is basically a mini-empire.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    43. Re:resistance is futile by Xest · · Score: 1

      All trade deals that had any impact on British sovereignty had to be agreed by Britain anyway - see the current CETA debacle as an example, where one tiny little irrelevant region in Europe can crush an entire treaty.

      So your argument is incorrect, there's no difference in the decrease in sovereignty, Britain was always part of negotiations and acceptance anyway, the difference now is we're negotiating from a much weaker starting point - we only have 65million people instead of 580million people. That necessarily means we're going to have to accept more compromise in favour of the larger parties (i.e. US, China, etc.) than we did before because we need the deals more than they do.

      The idea Britain can bully other countries into trade deals that suit us is a naive and ignorant hangover of British imperialism where there's a view that we somehow still control half the world and can somehow still bully other countries to our whim. We can't.

    44. Re:resistance is futile by Maritz · · Score: 1

      and the UK government will throw them under the bus.

      It's getting crowded under that bus, what with Scotland and NI already being there.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    45. Re:resistance is futile by Xest · · Score: 1

      Even some of the most hard-right Brexiteers such as Daniel Hannan who has a massively long history of xenophobia believe that immigration shouldn't see greater control.

      You're right, it really is only the genuinely far right fringes that are pushing that idea such as Jacob Rees Mogg and Nigel Farage. Even the hard-right aren't keen on the idea because they know we're so economically dependent on it.

      Honestly, I suspect Farage admitting the whole NHS £350million was a lie within 2 hours of winning the referendum would've been enough to make people realise what they've done was stupid - the real peak realisation will be next summer when all the chavs realise they can no longer afford to go to Benidorm, but hey-ho, May seems intent on making a point now. I can't tell if she's grossly inept or if she's calling the far-right Brexiteers bluffs by showing them what happens when they get their way. Either way it's a dangerous game.

    46. Re:resistance is futile by Xest · · Score: 1

      The whole point in the EU was to share wealth and bring all countries up to the same level so that the continent could move forward together.

      It was a noble and sane idea, the problem is it's been rushed, which is why the euro has struggled, because as you say they pushed ahead with it long before that cross-continental equalisation of wealth and productivity had occurred.

      So you're somewhat right and somewhat wrong, there was nothing wrong with the idea per-se, just the way it was implemented. I think some naively hoped that pushing it through would somehow speed up the process, but like many processes in economics and nature alike, you just can't rush these things. People are impatient, and that's where it all went horribly wrong.

    47. Re:resistance is futile by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      The treaties are not agreed upon by the EU and forced onto Britain.

      Ok wise guy, name one trade deal forced on to Britain by the EU. You know one we didn't agree to but got anyway. (a clue: it didn't happen because trade deals have to be unanimous).

      Being able to negotiate your own treaties is part of being sovereign.

      We had trade negotiators in the EU. We were part of the negotiations.

      So basically both major parts of your premise are false.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    48. Re:resistance is futile by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Yes, but regardless of that it shows how deeply fucked we are.

      People have said that Germany exports so much to us that of course they want a trade deal. Well I guess they do. But if Wallonia decides it doesn't want the UK to have a trade deal with the EU, then it doesn't matter what Germany wants. Tell me, how much does Wallonia export to the UK?

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    49. Re:resistance is futile by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      You see a giant conspiracy where there is none. There is no plan to displace the "natives" through immigration and breeding. Those guys were living in poverty with few life chances, and others took advantage of that to radicalize them and give their short lives meaning.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    50. Re:resistance is futile by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Of course then we would only have the spending power of the average Indian call centre worker too... For that to be practical things like rent and food prices would have to be slashed to a small fraction of what they are now, and the NHS would have to be shut down.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    51. Re:resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That will sure punish the Brits for wanting to preserve their own sovereignty. Any indication that you resist the New World Order must be punished. It would serve them right if they moved to Linux and open source solutions wherever they could and ended up paying Microsoft a lot less rather than a lot more.

      Hey the UK doesn't want to have EU citizens but continue go gain wealth from the EU why should they keep feeding the UK? TIP life isn't fair. You may have deluded yourself with some grand bulldog vision of superiority but guess what? Johnny Foreigner doesn't give a sh*t and will lookout for themselves.

    52. Re:resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's the Black Knight of empires.

    53. Re:resistance is futile by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      So it's kinda like the US, where you have powerhouse states like Texas and California, and the much poorer states that they are propping up. Except people in the US mostly don't see it that way.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    54. Re:resistance is futile by mjwx · · Score: 1

      How many terror attacks can you link to freedom of movement?

      I believe the last two were attributed to people born in the UK. I think it would be the same with the one they arrested for the London City Airport attack on the 20th given the Rozzers have released him on bail. Flight risks stay in one of Her Majesties finest institutions until trial.

      And if the Brits had enough of it, how come so many Brexiteers were hanging on to the hope of remaining in the ECC

      Exit won by a narrow margin. Much narrower than the Brexiters like to admit. They think that Europe is going to bow down to British demands when it's the other way around. May was quite smart when she put three well known Outers in the three key Brexit positions because they'll take the fall for the brexit failure whilst May can walk away smelling like roses.

      For some people this bubble will never be burst, but for most it already has and there is a huge amount of Bregret at the moment. If a general election was called tomorrow, any party standing on a Brexit platform would be massacred at the polls. Even UKIP has pretty much self destructed, now that there is no collective Europe to hate they've all turned on each other.

      Frankly, I think Brexit was just an episode of national pique, and I suspect if you reran the referendum now, with at least some of the ramifications becoming clear (such as Norway objecting to continued British membership in the ECC), Remain would have a solid win.

      100% correct there. Only 2% of those who voted leave need to have changed their minds.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    55. Re:resistance is futile by houghi · · Score: 1

      Are you trying to start a war? ...Wallonia, the French speaking region of Flanders...and Brussels
      Should have been: ...Wallonia, the French speaking region AND Flanders...
      or ...Wallonia, the Dutch speaking region of Flanders...

      So in fact it is all of Belgium that is against it. as there are only these three entities on that political level. Yes, I live in Flanders and work in Brussels.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    56. Re:resistance is futile by unixisc · · Score: 1

      It's not like the US. Various states became a part of the union over time, but all started from the same place. TX and CA leapfrogged a lot of the others, but there is nothing stopping other states from competing. In fact, for a good while, you had the Midwestern Rust Belt states w/ very strong economies, before Detroit tanked

    57. Re:resistance is futile by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Rushed is not the issue. Issue is that you can't have some countries in the union follow fiscally responsible policies, while other countries follow wildly populist policies that bury them in a hole so deep that they'd emerge from the antipode of their country. That's the case w/ Greece - w/ people retiring at 45. Sounds great, except that Greece is not Saudi Arabia or Libya and doesn't have the cash to pay for such luxuries. By themselves, they'd have collapsed, as a part of the EU, they are left haggling w/ Germany over the terms & conditions of their debt management.

    58. Re:resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With countless of racist attacks, and Drumpf as one of the possible presidents: How's THAT working out for you then?

    59. Re:resistance is futile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As demonstrated with the Dutch referendum, where two-thirds of voters opposed political, trade and defence treaty... in April this year. So almost 200 days ago. AND NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE WITH IT AND ALL THE TREATY WILL JUST GO ON!

      So much for unanimous voting, uh?

    60. Re:resistance is futile by OhPlz · · Score: 1

      Ignorant views. Try telling that to the victims' families. People that wanted a more secure America after 9/11, were they victims of the media or flat-out racists? No, and you're an ass for suggesting as much. I'll let you in on a little known secret.. people want to live. They want their families to live. They want their friends, and coworkers, and neighbors to live. Both the US and Europe as well as nations around the world are seeing attacks waged on them by Islamic extremists, and all the while people like you blame those that don't wish to be victims.

      Securing the borders and controlling immigration are primary responsibilities of our federal government. It's not being done well enough. That's why Trump was nominated, and why he stands a good chance to win. That's a big reason why the Brexit happened, along with a number of other issues. That's why France may Frexit soon. That's why nationalist parties throughout Europe are gaining support, and I'm not a fan of most of them.

      The ignorant views are from the people allowed to stay in modern countries that fail to embrace the opportunities it offers them. Nobody in those countries secretly loves terrorism. You need help if you seriously think that. People hate terrorism and they're starting to hate their governments that don't do enough to prevent it.

    61. Re:resistance is futile by OhPlz · · Score: 1

      "How many terror attacks must be tolerated that were aided by the EU's freedom of movement between member countries?"

      THAT WERE AIDED BY.

      Learn how to read.

    62. Re:resistance is futile by Xest · · Score: 1

      But that was exactly my point - that Greece's economy had not reached an equivalent maturity of France and Germany's, and they rushed through their entrance to the euro regardless of them not being ready. Had they instead waited and said, "You're not ready yet", then Greece would've had an incentive to make it's economy actually ready and join at a later date when it had undergone the necessary changes, hence precisely why it was a rushed state of affairs. They turned a blind eye to Greece's known problems because they just wanted to rush ahead with things.

    63. Re:resistance is futile by dave420 · · Score: 1

      No, they are angry with misguided reasons. It's easy to scapegoat the voiceless refugees - they have no power, no position, nothing. They literally fled with the clothes on their back. You seem to be entirely ignoring the failed policies of France and Belgium when it came to integrating immigrants. You are also confusing "refugee" and "immigrant", which is not surprising for someone posting such hyperbolic nonsense. You talk as if the immigrants/refugees/muslims/brown people you detest are acting as a single organisation, with a single goal of destroying Europe. It's madness. You seem woefully ill-informed and scared. The coward's position is not something one should be proud to hold.

    64. Re:resistance is futile by dave420 · · Score: 1

      I'm blaming the terrorists, not the religion which they share with over a billion peaceful people.

    65. Re:resistance is futile by dave420 · · Score: 1

      And you've yet to show how this is a problem large enough to condemn millions to suffer...

    66. Re:resistance is futile by dave420 · · Score: 1

      It's terrible for British manufacturing, as the necessary raw materials (which largely do not come from the UK) now cost more. It's also terrible for British people who have to import a great deal of their food. But you're right - companies which sell services or which can magic commodities out of thin air will benefit at the expense of everyone else.

  5. YOU US-IANS ARE SO FUCKED! by CajunArson · · Score: 5, Funny

    You stupid USians don't know what's going to hit you when Microsoft finds out that you illegally broke away from the EU 240 years ago!

    --
    AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
    1. Re:YOU US-IANS ARE SO FUCKED! by halivar · · Score: 1

      And thus our 240-year-long plan to intermarry with Native Americans finally pays off! I'm 1/16th Seneca; now give me my reparations!

    2. Re:YOU US-IANS ARE SO FUCKED! by rholtzjr · · Score: 1

      Well we did get the proverbial "got rid of one dictator 3000 miles away to 3000 dictators a couple miles away". Unless we change you may be correct that we are fucked.

    3. Re:YOU US-IANS ARE SO FUCKED! by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Is that when they'll start charging us for the forced automatic Windows 10 updates?

    4. Re:YOU US-IANS ARE SO FUCKED! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know why "USian" isn't catching on more. UKians and PRCies have embraced the term, as well as the FRBies and UMSians, love the shortened names.

      DPRKers don't seem to like theirs for some reason.

      Word verification: perplex

    5. Re:YOU US-IANS ARE SO FUCKED! by unixisc · · Score: 1

      What is FRBies and UMSians?

    6. Re:YOU US-IANS ARE SO FUCKED! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Federative Republic of Brazil and United Mexican States.

    7. Re:YOU US-IANS ARE SO FUCKED! by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      It's because English still lacks a proper translation for estadounidense.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  6. Linux Is Still Free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can I remind any enterprises who are dissatisfied with this 22% price increase that Linux is free.

    22% is a considerable price hike. At what point do you draw the line?

    1. Re: Linux Is Still Free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At what point do you read the article?

    2. Re:Linux Is Still Free by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Man. That's great.

      Where is this free Linux cloud service where I can stand up entire enterprise architectures and applications securely, robustly, with fault tolerance and multi-zone availability? How have I not heard of this service before?

      Oh, because it doesn't exist and you couldn't even be bothered to read through the first 4 words of the god damn title, much less the summary.

      It's like Pavlov and his dogs - the word Microsoft shows up on this site and people just start hitting submit.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    3. Re:Linux Is Still Free by Archtech · · Score: 2

      Where is this free Linux cloud service where I can stand up entire enterprise architectures and applications securely

      You can stop your rant right there. If you want security and to be sure your data and operations will continue predictably, don't use a cloud service at all. Why does it make sense to entrust your crown jewels to a bunch of complete strangers, who use computers you know nothing about in a place that you don't even necessarily know, if you can't run them yourself? Besides, as you know full well, it is FOSS software that is (mostly) free of charge. No one has ever pretended that the necessary hardware and services came free - to do so would be ridiculous. But if you really want to run your software on someone else's equipment, why not go to AWS? Then you'll be using tried and tested FOSS, professionally operated for you. (Although I would never entrust really vital data to any remote service; basic risk analysis will show you why).

      25 years ago I was warning people about the perils of what has come to be known as "hacking", and most of them were completely unaware and unprepared. I told them that the problem had barely even started yet, and wouldn't until serious professional criminals and state actors became aware of the potential and began to exploit it.

      That would be about now, and those who entrust their IT to "the cloud" are simply meeting the black hats half way. They may very well get away with for a long time - just as people get away with leaving their houses unlocked, their windows open, and their cars unlocked with the keys in. But it isn't smart.

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    4. Re:Linux Is Still Free by rholtzjr · · Score: 1

      It did come from an AC, what would you expect?

    5. Re:Linux Is Still Free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      can I remind morons that nothing is free, the most significant cost is not licensing, that ends up being just a couple of percent of the cost and idiots that try to use that as a target for cost saving are why Open Source isn't more wide spread on desktops, the ignorance of not understanding TCO makes you look like an idiot to businesses.

    6. Re: Linux Is Still Free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called OpenStack.

  7. They didn't raise the price by tomhath · · Score: 5, Informative

    All they're doing is following the exchange rate for the British pound.

    1. Re:They didn't raise the price by bloodhawk · · Score: 1

      Yep, you can pretty much expect all companies that haven't already done this to follow. (many already have)

    2. Re:They didn't raise the price by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      All they're doing is following the exchange rate for the British pound.

      And I have some cheap oceanfront property in Nebraska I'm selling at a cheap rate. You don't see Microsoft (or any other company) announcing price cuts when a currency surges in value.

    3. Re:They didn't raise the price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course they raised prices, the reason doesn't much matter.

      Companies love to use the excuse that they're using the natural (or historical) price when the exchange rate is good (to justify not dropping prices),
      but then have no trouble raising prices quickly if the exchange rate moves in the other direction.

    4. Re:They didn't raise the price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And food prices never fall. What is your point?

      Companies are obviously fair and work on universal principles and since Microsoft does not decrease rates with a currency rise this increase that perfectly matches a drop in currency could not possibly have happened because of a drop in currency.

      Please.

    5. Re:They didn't raise the price by bloodhawk · · Score: 1

      Actually yes they do announce price cuts when currency surges in Value. They regularly adjust because of exchange rates, the only thing that makes this one stand out is the size of the adjustment. In Australia we regularly have both price rises and price cuts depending on current exchange rates.

    6. Re:They didn't raise the price by DarkLordBelial · · Score: 1

      Must be nice for all those UK Microsoft employees getting a pay increase now that it is cheaper to pay them.

      Or have Microsoft chosen to 'absorb' that?

    7. Re:They didn't raise the price by Xest · · Score: 1

      Whilst I understand the logic behind your pedantry, I actually disagree with you. Why?

      Because Microsoft never changes prices in the other direction on things like this when following the UK pound - when it was $2 USD to the pound back in about 2007 we sure as hell didn't get an 80% discount on stuff compared to where we are priced now.

      So I actually think it is a price increase, precisely because Microsoft has never followed the pound - following the pound implies that these price changes will fluctuate up and down, but I'd wager this price increase isn't reversed when the pounds fortunes improve.

      I think this price increase is absolutely justified given what we have done to our country and currency, however I also think cuts are justified when the pound is strong, and yet we never get them. In fact, only a couple of years ago the pound was back up to 1.70 - 1.80 USD and yet we never saw a price cut then.

  8. I love when companies do this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But then when the money gains back value, the prices don't drop

  9. They did not raise prices by Trachman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It is the British pound that lost value.

    Notice how companies are quick to raise prices, but are very slow to reduce the prices when currency is strong (hint: Switzerland).

    Not all is negative in this: UK may consider switching to OS software in the long term.

    1. Re:They did not raise prices by unixisc · · Score: 1

      So they can have a British distro of Linux - Brinux. Or, since it starts w/ B, they could start a company in Berkshire (not sure if there is any 'Berkeley' in England), and appropriate the BSD name. Take either FreeBSD/TrueOS or OpenBSD and base a BSD Unix on that, and give it a total UKian (British equivalent of USian) flavour (British for 'flavor')

    2. Re:They did not raise prices by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Of course there is a Berkeley in the UK - it's just north east of Bristol. Your ignorance of Britain is astounding, considering how you want to weigh in on Brexit.

  10. stupid loner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With most trade deals, you know what you're getting.

    You know you're getting Screwed, because loners have no leverage.

    Being in the club means your buddies will have your back and provide leverage.

    1. Re:stupid loner by frovingslosh · · Score: 1

      Yea, "your buddies". Wish that I had mod points to mod this up as "Funny".

      --
      I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
  11. Every cloud has a silver lining by Archtech · · Score: 1

    Yet another practical reason to stop paying Microsoft! There is a plethora of excellent and transparent FOSS, which is growing every day. Because it is open-source and free, instead of continually reinventing the bicycle people can build new and more useful applications on top of infrastructure that already exists and can be freely reused. (As in the Unix software tools philosophy).

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    1. Re:Every cloud has a silver lining by oji-sama · · Score: 1

      Nice. Currently actually paying Amazon, but where do I sign up for the excellent and transparent FOSS cloud? Wouldn't want to reinvent the bicycle.

      --
      It is what it is.
  12. Regarding consequences... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, well, when your "peers" start making unreasonable, unilateral demands, they should expect to be told to go pound sand. The more you tighten your grip, saying that everyone who doesn't follow your moral fashion is reprobate, the more people are going to have nothing to do with the tools looking for social validation.

    Alienate enough people and you're going to find out how many of us make fun of you behind your backs.

  13. And so it starts by OneHundredAndTen · · Score: 1

    Start enjoying your Brexit.

  14. Calling this brexit when it's not even happening.. by Ash-Fox · · Score: 3, Funny

    I don't know, calling this "brexit" when it's not even happening is ridiculous. The are a couple of issues here. One, the pound has been overvalued for quite a while now, the uncertainty brought about recently has only sought to restore the pound to a more accurate valuation (although some economists feel that the valuation is higher than it should be still).

    Unfortunately, the issue with uncertainty isn't brexit, but the result of politicians that aren't actually acting. The government is not doing a good job at showing certainty, article 50 hasn't even been executed by our government, so we and everyone else don't even know if we're even really leaving the EU or not. Brexit is simply leaving the EU and there is no progress since the elections, we're just stuck in limbo while politicians do anything but act. At this point, our politicians need to either start acting and declare we're staying in the EU or leaving, otherwise we're just going to ruin ourselves by staying in this stupid limbo.

    --
    Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  15. NAWBO subsidies... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NAWBO (https://www.nawbo.org/) must have reduced the subsidy it's paying to Microsoft to spy on its customers.

  16. funny by SuperDre · · Score: 1

    This is funny, as more and more is clear the Pro-Brexit campaign was lying their ass off. the first thing they did after they won was break their big promise of spending billions of pounds on care. And now a lot of people who find out the thruth about being lied to by the Pro-brexit people are getting angry.. Funny thing is, they want a new round for voting, but that's being nixed.
    Brexit was never good for anyone, expect the people who ran the campaign..

  17. Re:Calling this brexit when it's not even happenin by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

    In other words the EU was propping us up, and the moment we decided to throw away that crutch the markets started treating us like the sick man of Europe that we are.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  18. Re:Calling this brexit when it's not even happenin by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

    In other words the EU was propping us up

    That's not how over evaluating a currency works, so in a word, no.

    the moment we decided to throw away that crutch the markets started treating us like the sick man of Europe that we are.

    Saying that the markets are treating the UK as a "sick man" of Europe when the markets value the GBP value over USD is pure non-sense. I mean, really, if you want to compare a "sick man of Europe" as you put it, the value of BGN is half a USD.

    --
    Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  19. Re:Calling this brexit when it's not even happenin by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

    You don't seem to understand how currency is valued. The value placed on £1 is based on the net worth of the UK and its future economic prospects. The fact that £1 > $1 is meaningless, the two are not using the same scale.

    The UK's prospects looked much better inside the EU, which kept out currency valued high. The English language, access to Europe and reasonable prospects all contributed. Then the markets noticed that we had thrown most of that away and were in the process of destroying our wealth in an effort to reduce immigration and "get back sovereignty", which they correctly interpreted as making ourselves less able to trade and compete in the world.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  20. Re:Calling this brexit when it's not even happenin by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

    You don't seem to understand how currency is valued.

    I do and it has been over valued for a very long time, which Deutsche Bank analysts even confirmed last year. Even now, the IMF has stated repeatedly that the pound is still overvalued despite the fall and has been hurting the export industry for decades now which head lead to a major loss of business, particularly in the services industry.

    The UK's prospects looked much better inside the EU

    The UK's prospects had a set of certainty for the next few years, they didn't look 'better', the situation is right now unknowable, particularly because politicians are not taking sufficient action to make strides in either direction.

    Then the markets noticed that we had thrown most of that away and were in the process of destroying our wealth in an effort to reduce immigration and "get back sovereignty", which they correctly interpreted as making ourselves less able to trade and compete in the world.

    Honestly, if that was the case, then we wouldn't still be overvalued (which I think is a significant problem in it self), but we are and the over valuation is overall hurting our exports to the point that our imports are overshadowing them.

    --
    Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.