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Canadian Police Are Texting Potential Murder Witnesses (vice.com)
On Thursday, the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) will send text messages to anybody who was in the vicinity of a murder in the hopes that one of them will have information that can help catch the culprit. One of the recipients may even be the killer. Others may wonder how the police obtained their phone number in the first place, or knew where they were on the day in question. From a Motherboard report: The OPP is ramping up its efforts to find the murderer of 65-year-old hitchhiker John Hatch, who was found dead near Erin, Ontario, on December 17, 2015. He was last seen alive the day before, outside Ottawa. Now, the OPP has announced what it's describing as a "new investigative technique" for the force: obtaining the phone numbers of everyone who was in the area where and when Hatch was last seen alive, via a court order, and sending each person a text message directing them to a police website. If they follow those instructions, they'll be asked a series of online questions. According to digital privacy lawyer David Fraser, this technique is known as a "tower dump" -- essentially asking telecom companies for information about everyone who connected to a certain cellphone tower, at a given time. If the police plan on using this technique again, its future uses could have unintended effects, Frasier said.
will they pay for that? even if there are high roaming fees?
Yeah, you know me.
So the killer at least apologized before killing the victim.
I suggest you use it. There is never anything to gain from talking to the police. Ever. The idea of the policeman as keeper of the peace is dead in Canada as one by one rights in the charter are ignored "for the public good".
Fortunately the right to remain silent is still valid.
You don't typically pay for receiving text messages.
You do in England.
Video completely related.
This is going to get messy...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Where? You pay for it in Canada.
um erozon in murica without the unlimited sms paid featur
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/...
"The force will keep the numbers on file until the murder is solved, officers said at a news conference on Wednesday.
Investigators will also consider calling the numbers of people who don't respond voluntarily, but they would be required to obtain another court order to do so."
If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
But the person I murdered doesn't match that description. xthxbye
what a backward country
I mean - seriously - if I would receive any kind of text message from a stranger asking me to visit some web site, it wouldn't take my well-trained neural network more than a split second to classify this as either SPAM or SCAM, discarding the message.
As someone that averages a little over $60 a month in receiving text fees from AT&T, WTF are you talking about? I'm charged 25 cents per message and average about 2,500 received text messages. I've never sent a text message, but my company has monitoring systems that send texts.
Just curious but on what carrier? Last I heard of that was Rogers back in the 00's.
That's crazy! I have a plan with AT&T that costs just over $60 a month and includes unlimited text messaging, both send and receive.
Why do you have a phone plan that doesn't match your needs? And even more, why do you brag about it on the internet?
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
Are we still talking about Canada?
--OR MUCH IMPROVED VERSION --
Are we still talking aboot Canada, eh?
--OR 2.0 VERSION ---
England could mimic "backwards" Canada
News from Wot could go bloody wrong department
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
I thought it was just an American thing. In Australia, Telstra sent everyone on it's network an ad SMS and charged them all for it. That quickly put a stop to the practice here.
No you don't. Never have done (unless you were roaming at the time). The USA is the only country I've heard of that has carriers who charge for receiving messages.
If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
Which provider(s)? All the plans I know of do not require the recipient of a text to pay anything.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
You're all going to jail unless one of you confesses!
Will they pay for the psychological damage of those texts. Consider they are not taking into account the specific psychological health of the people in question, just, meh fuck em, make it easier for us and will get is that promotion. So mentally challenged person, someone was just murdered near you, oh my god, it could have been you and by the by, yes we are watching you, we know were you were and we know where you are. So morons, how much damage do you think that message would do to a mentally ill individually under going therapy. How much damage would it do to normal people just minding their own business. Seriously, what the fuck.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Giving them a heads up would go a long way in cutting down the murder rate.
In my opinion; Canadian police forces are far less deserving of anti-cop, paranoid rhetoric than US or Latin American forces. In this case, the police obtained a court ordered warrant before asking the telecoms for the tower dump info. This is exactly how the law is supposed to work The police are seeking information that they cannot obtain through the usual personal observation or talking to people one on one and one at a time. Traditional foot work just isn't going to produce the leads they need. They came up with a way to essentially canvas a virtual neighbourhood. Obtaining phone numbers and sending an sms message to everyone who was within a certain area and during a certain time seems to me to be the digital equivalent of knocking doors, asking residents if they've seen anything suspicious.
The only aspect that I can see where someone might make a legitimate objection is if the police then also use the list of numbers and names as a way to populate their list of suspects. Being a suspect, even if only a routine "talk to you so they can strike your name off the list" would trouble many people. Thing is, that is entirely within the bounds of normal police work. Using data that was legitimately obtained for further uses within the same case is an accepted and necessary part of police work.
As for myself, I have only two points of concern in this case:
1) I would want to be assured that the police didn't share this list with anyone else. Other investigations must go and obtain their own warrants. That way if a case might be helped by this data, but itself doesn't merit having a judge issue a warrant, it doesn't get that data. It also makes sure that the police or other authorities don't get handed an easy way to build a database of citizens and the numbers associated with them.
2) That the police do not retain this data. That way, if a user found in the current data changes his or her phone number down the road, they don't have the police looking at them for a crime committed by someone else who later got that number.
I need a wheelchair van for my son. Help me get the word out. https://www.gofundme.com/wheelchair-van-for-jj
What's new in this article ?
In France it only takes the police a call (or rather a FAX) to cell operators to get the tower dumps.
Not for large areas or large period of time but it looks rather easy.
AFAIK the police does'nt text after that; maybe this is what make this "new"
I have unlimited data so I can't change my text plan. Yes, the text charges are painful, but it's still cheaper than paying for data. I was commenting to the post that claimed "You don't typically pay for receiving text messages." That isn't usually true.
Depends on your plan, post paid are normally free, pre paid normally extra. Also tablets have phone numbers attached and sometimes get wrong texts for dollar or more each.
Website Just Down For Me? Find out
Which provider(s)? All the plans I know of do not require the recipient of a text to pay anything.
Even in the US there are plenty of legacy plans (including those with unlimited data) that still charge for sending or receiving SMS.
There is no way I'm giving up my Verizon unlimited data and cheap phone plan just because entitled asshole business people want to believe consumers should be happy to receive unsolicited text messages.
Use a Google Voice number
What is the first thing smart criminals, corrupt police, private detectives and the press will do?
Hack it and get the background stories to each person. Create a reason for a face to face interview with real details from the initial police contact.
If they saw something its a great story or information to sell.
The UK tried to keep digital secrets about case work in the past and the files got sold to anyone with cash in real time.
"Journalists caught on tape in police bugging" (21 September 2002 )
https://www.theguardian.com/uk...
"Tabloid journalists were caught on tape by a police surveillance operation obtaining information from a private detective agency which in turn paid corrupt officers for confidential police material."
The access to any witness material in digital form should be air gapped, not networked with telcos. Telco staff with access are just as corrupt or cult members or criminal or have cash flow issues to help with as any other member of the wider public and would sell or give such contact lists.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
I have unlimited data so I can't change my text plan. Yes, the text charges are painful, but it's still cheaper than paying for data. I was commenting to the post that claimed "You don't typically pay for receiving text messages." That isn't usually true.
It is usually true. Your example is the unusual data point.
Donald?
Telstra sent everyone on it's network an ad SMS and charged them all for it...
This happened in New Zealand too, also by the formerly publically owned former monopoly.
okay, but I thought we talking about Canada here
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
All of the major carriers charge. The only carrier I know of that does not charge (for any of their current plans) is Wind Mobile, which covers approximately 0.1% of Canada by land mass. Rogers even still charges (What gave you the idea they don't? Do you have a very expensive plan and thought everyone else does, too?)
Rogers: 30/message for Canadian/U.S. text messages
http://www.rogers.com/web/content/wireless-products/plans?cm_mmc=Redirects-_-Consumer_Wireless_Eng-_-Plans_1009-_-paygoplans#,Tabset1--3,
Bell: Text messages sent and received in Canada: $0.30/message
http://www.bell.ca/Mobility/Cell_phone_plans/Prepaid_plans
Telus: (Click starter 10) $0.30 per message
http://www.telus.com/en/on/mobility/prepaid/plans/
I'd check out Koodo, Virgin and Fido, but they're just owned by RoBellUs. Would there be any point?
All the major providers charge in Canada. Of course, you can choose to pay a lot for your plan and have unlimited. Just because you choose this does not mean everyone else does. With 7500 people in this dragnet, you can be certain many will pay 30 cents for this message.
Just another unsolicited and unwelcome spam text that will earn a well deserved spot on my phone's blocked number list.
if you're too fucking lazy and incompetent to do police work properly when it involves something as serious as a homicide, then you deserve no less than to be dismissed and ignored.
You would think the police would be hopping up and down to get various tower dumps for the time/place the victim was last seen and the (best estimate) time/place the victim was found.
Then search for new potential witnesses and look for phone moving along the route who might potentially belong to individuals involved in the murder.
What is the first thing smart criminals, corrupt police, private detectives and the press will do?
Murder the witness and blame Putin.
to do precisely what people like me fear.
Let's say that instead of texting potential witnesses, they find someone upon whom they can pin the crime.
No leads, no suspects but they find that someone just happened to be in the areas with a criminal record.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
One of the recipients may even be the killer.
Asking if the suspect is guilty by web-form probably won't have the same scare value as "we have police evidence". An experienced lawyer knows how worthless police evidence is, which is why some courts are avoiding expert testimony.
Next the police claim "we have scientific evidence". If they had irrefutable evidence, or even unavoidable evidence, they wouldn't threaten the suspect, they would arrest him. Scientific evidence is less impressive these days because television shows like 'CSI' tell jurors that it can easily prove guilt or innocence.
Have you seen those crime investigations like "48 hours"; which use 2 or 3 unexplained bits of evidence to accuse someone? Ask Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman how useful unexplained evidence was in finding their killer. When the police insisted the evidence belonged to the killer, they helped their only suspect walk away.
Getting good evidence is rare. Which is why the police are using this John Doe warrant to get information about many people: That is more worrying than treating all those people like a criminal.
I was in San Francisco and I was driving up Sloat Boulevard from the beach, once, a few years ago, and I witnessed an auto collision, but didn't stop because I was going the other way and there were plenty of witnesses.
A few weeks later I got a call on my call phone from someone who identified themselves as a detective for the SFPD. He asked me if I had seen the accident and I told him that I had, and what I had seen.
Perhaps I was foolish to assume that he WAS a SFPD detective.
Never heard anything more but obviously this technology has been around and in the hands of police who have been using it without a warrant for five years, at least.
~childo
Only time I've ever been charged for a text was when it was an international text, which was retarded and I complained and got the fees waived.
As for the crime, I think if I was planning on breaking the law I'd want to create an alibi, and I would leave my cell phone wherever I intend to claim that I was, maybe even plant a burner phone somewhere else, call it, and keep the line active for a set time period while I go and bury Nina on the side of a hill between Redwood Regional Park and the Huckleberry Botanic Regional Preserve.
Never seen any plans from any UK provider where you pay to receive an SMS. Often you pay to send them, but never to receive them.
I'm worried as to what you consider "a very expensive plan" since both Bell and Fido have unlimited incoming/outgoing texts on their $15.75/mo plans. Heck, with Fido you can even have a per-day plan that includes unlimited incoming texts, for the princely sum of $1.
Your samosas are fucking up your brain, stop eating that shit.
Bonehead. That's for SENDING not receiving SMS messages.
Canada too. About 15 years ago, with my plan, I could receive 10 SMS for free, after that it was 15 cents each.
Expect a wave of bogus calls claiming to be from the police.
In the UK some criminals pretend to be the police and use the phone system to make their con more believable. People have lost of a lot of money because the "police" told them that criminals had accessed their bank accounts.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
This is why I don't answer any number I don't recognize, even my own area code, until they leave a message proving I actually want them calling me.
Only time I've ever been charged for a text was when it was an international text, which was retarded and I complained and got the fees waived.
That depends on what you mean by "international". If you are abroad and someone sends you a text from your home country there are additional costs involved (in theory). Since your friend has no way to tell if you're abroad it's not fair to pass these costs on to them so you have to foot the bill. The same also used to apply to phone calls: you paid extra for outbound calls and also paid for incoming calls. These days in the EU I understand that the incoming call/text fees have been quashed by an EU directive.
If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
I'm loving how most of the comments are about potential charges (of which there won't likely be any) as opposed to discussing the concept of mass texting by proximity to a crime. I'm sure with some decent big-data analytics they would eventually build a model to predict the culprit based on movements, etc. (For example, which cell phone made a b-line out of the area at the time, if in fact they were carrying a phone to begin with)
this is how
Not true with Australian carriers - receiving text messages when roaming overseas is free. Only sending text message cost money. (Receiving calls when roaming overseas costs money, but receiving calls within Australia is free.)
So you receive an SMS to visit a site "from the police". If visit the site, and your Windows computer *might* get infected with a malware to spy on you. The police also asks your name, and correlates your name *with* your phone, and with your IP address of the next few days or weeks. Seem a pretty wise idea...
I don't know anyone with unlimited text messages. The three companies that have a near monopoly in the US love to charge per text message and refuse to give-up that sweet profit. I approve expenses for my team, and we reimburse for text messages since we send-out about 4k of them per month to members of the team. Every single person out of the nearly three dozen does not have an unlimited text plan. Again, AT&T, Verizon, and Sprint refuse to sell them because charging, in my case, a nickel each is very profitable. Why would they voluntarily stop that massive cash flow? The government needs to get involved because most people I know are spending $50 or more per month on text messages. I spend about twice as much on text messages as I do for unlimited US calling.
Heck, a lot of the providers in Canada not only have free incoming text, but allow free international texts.
Especially if they say they're a government body/authority, given the number of scams posing as the police/RCMP, tax agency, etc.
I get email and phone calls all the time "From" the FBI, the IRS, and the U.S. Marshall's Office telling me I have not paid my taxes or I've been otherwise behaving badly, there is a bench warrant for my arrest, and that I must pay the taxes and/or fines immediately or I will be carted off to jail. "Go to the nearest 7-11 and buy a Moneygram card in the amount of $$$$ and email the card number to our offices at..."
I'd be happy to help actual law enforcement in an investigation, but I'm afraid I will need some authentication. Like, I will look up the phone number of the law enforcement agency who sent the email in the Yellow Pages, and call that number. Number in the email/text/phone call? Yeah, right.
But first, that message would have to get past my "*sigh* yet another spammer/scammer" filter, which is, frankly, set at a high paranoia level.
If actual law enforcement starts doing this sort of thing regularly, the bad guys are going to join the party in a big way. Guaranteed.