Ask Slashdot: What Training Helps Older Programmers Most?

brown.dragon is an older programmer moving to Australia. He writes: I want to start an online solution that other programmers find helpful, and right now I'm wondering if I should go with "learning new technologies" or "getting really good at the basics". Both are targeted towards giving a career boost to older programmers...

Would you like to keep in touch with the latest technologies because that's what makes it easy to get jobs? Or would you like to be really good at answering (Google/Facebook/Amazon) algorithmic interview questions?
He asks programmers looking for an online educational tool, "which of these (if any), would interest you?" So leave your answers in the comments. What training do you think would help older programmers most?

Comments

Write software

[rsilvergun]

that's you're best bet. Just keep writing software. The best way to learn is by doing.

Do older programmers even need help?

[GoodNewsJimDotCom]

Most programmers I know can pick up a new tech in about two weeks and be average at it automatically then gain mastery of it over time. There's no need to have a tutorial because there are plenty out there already.
Personally, I do so much hands on coding and software engineering that I forget the terminology they used in college. I know how to do the stuff, but I forget the definitions they used. Its kinda embarassing in an interview to not know what they're talking about because I forgot the word they use for something super basic. There's webpages for this too. Not to discourage you, but older programmers can train themselves in just a few days if they want to.
Its not like older programmers today haven't been exposed to OO or something game changing. I'd even imagine older coders can pick up new techs faster than kids out of college just because of a lifetime of experience.

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. You and I know it. Just tell it to HR when they find out you're over 50. : (

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[Anonymous Coward]

50? I'm in my mid 30's and have personally seen the aversion from HR folks to the idea of a developer very skilled in several areas being able to pick up a new areas in others.

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[ShanghaiBill]

Just tell it to HR when they find out you're over 50. : (

If you are over 50 and you are trying to get a job by going through HR, then there is something wrong with you.

Someone with decades of experience should have a deep network, and plenty of ex-coworkers to tap for opportunities. If they don't, that is because those co-workers don't want to work with them again. So why should I hire them?

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[johannesg]

They don't. My Powers of Programming have not diminished as I grew older (and by now I have reached the magic age of 45, i.e. I am entitled to tell you all how I was chased by dinosaurs uphill in my youth - at least that's what employers believe anyway).

But the problem is not that you somehow become less capable technically. The problem is that you become less accepting of bullshit. When I was 25, my boss asked me to fix a problem that required me to _stand_ (not sit) in a cooling cell (4 C; 39 F) for a day because there was a program running there that needed debugging. I did it without asking questions. All around me were guys wearing warm clothing who were carrying boxes in and out of the cooling cell, but noone thought to offer me any protection from the cold. When I walked out to warm up a little every once in a while they would in fact comment on my obvious lack of stamina and suggest I work harder to stay warm (again, this was a programming job).

And a few years after that, at a different employer, they hung a computer from a crane and had me stand next to it for a few days because that was the only way we could reach the relevant hardware - although moving it to a desk would only have been a few hours worth of work. I stood right next to a 10m drop for day, without any kind of safety in place - one wrong step and I would have fallen about 3 floors down.

Would I still do these things? No f'ing way! It's not that I _cannot_ stand for a day, or that my body feels the cold more, or that I'm scared of heights now, it's simply that I no longer think of myself as the lowest peon in the organisation - if they want my services, they need to at least marginally accomodate my needs as well. Also, I discovered somewhere along the line that my job is essentially a mercenary position: I rent out my skills for money, but there isn't any loyalty either way beyond the short term. There are in fact things in life I rate higher than spending hours in the office.

Employers very much prefer someone who only cares for proving himself to the big bad world, and is happy to do idiotic jobs without asking any questions - and has those things as the highest priority in life. Those people are generally speaking below 40, so someone over 40 finds it harder to get a job. And no amount of training or online courses will change this.

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[RabidReindeer]

I've seen HR reject because I had experience with similar products from other vendors. I've seen HR reject because my experience was with a newer verson of a product.

HR is brain-dead when it comes to understanding technical qualifications and abilities. And they don't care. There's always someone willing to lie and claim to be a perfect fit despite the fact that HR routinely publishes laundry lists which are statistically unlikely to have anyone on the planet be a point-for-point match.

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[angel'o'sphere]

Some people are not good at networking.

And frankly it goes both ways, asking an ex colleague about job opportunities (when I'm vacant) is probably the least thing I ever would do.

Also, it is probably a culture problem, but in Germany it is often impossible to bypass HR. So a network would not help. And another culture problem is "friendship". My colleagues are not my friends. Regardless of job I had. I never would invite one to my birthday e.g. And for the same reason: I don't see any point to stay in contact with a colleague after he or I leave the company. Sorry, I'm a developer, not a marketing droid or Dilbert like manager who *needs* a network and is nothing without it. I don't nourish colleagues to have a network, for that I have linkedin and Xing.

If that makes me "non hire able" for you ... I wonder what else you miss :D

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[johannesg]

That lack of enthousiasm is not because we have done it for 30 years, it is because we have put in that effort many times in the past, and received nothing in return for it. I've done my share of heroics - and getting a pat on the back was usually already too much. Financial compensation? Never. Bonus for job well done, above and beyond? Never. Time compensation? Only under the direst of circumstances. Additional carreer prospects? Don't make me laugh - they know I'm a lousy manager and an excellent engineer, so they'll never willingly move me out of engineering.

You are getting some grief from the other posters, but in truth there is nothing that separates you from so many other bosses: you think of engineers not as people, but as tools. And in return they think of themselves not as valued members of the team, but as mercenaries.

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[Anonymous Coward]

I, sir, am a bona-fide computer geek. I don't have a deep social network. That would require that I actually be social! Did you want to hire a social person or would you rather hire someone who isn't social, but gets the job done?

And when I get laid off, the entire department scatters to the winds and never contacts each other again.

Re: Do older programmers even need help?

[Anonymous Coward]

From a past job:
Peons like worked very long hours to meet a milestone.
Result:
VP : 100k + bonus
Director: 50k bonus
Peons: hotdog lunch in the parking lot, one hotdog per person only please!

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[GLMDesigns]

Not everyone networks well. You can be a good programmer and a poor networker.

Re: Do older programmers even need help?

[xtal]

If you know who Knuth IS, you're better than 90% of the programmers out there..

They know it already

[tomp]

Older programmers know the basics and they know how to learn new technologies. Matter of fact, that's precisely what they know. Those who don't move into management before they become "older programmers".

There's always a need for better learning tools. But tools for "old programmers" doesn't make any more sense than tools for female coders.

Wrong question

[Snotnose]

You should ask "I've got this bunch of folks with 10-40 years experience. How do I make them most productive?"

I've been around for, jeez, 38 years now. I'm really good at C, C++, Java, RTOS systems, embedded systems, device drivers, talking to hardware in general, and meeting avoidance. I'm not good at "team building", "Agile development", "Synergy", "open office", "ping pong", "free cokes".

Tell me what you want me to do. I'll give you feedback on how reasonable your desires are. I listen to you, you listen to me, you give me a nice quiet place to work, and stuff happens.

Re: Wrong question

[Zontar The Mindless]

And you sound like dead wood. No-one wants to do your work for you while you worry about "fitting in socially".

Give up

[Gussington]

The simple fact is that as we age we become less able to pick up new things easily. This is a biological limitation that no amount wishing is wasn't so will fix.
But what older people are better at is considered thought, strategy and leadership, so your best strategy is to be fresh and dynamic when you're young, and as you age, play to those strengths.

Re:Give up

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

The simple fact is that as we age we become less able to pick up new things easily.

I've yet to see much evidence of that. I see a trend for more experienced people to be less willing to learn lots of new things all the time, but that's partly because they better at recognising potential. They know that a lot of the heavily hyped new things in the tech industry aren't really new at all and/or probably won't last five minutes. They know there will be plenty of time to learn the ones that do have staying power, if and when they need them. In the meantime, they tend to prioritise using and learning those things that will actually help to get the job done or done better. This, grasshopper, is the difference between knowledge and wisdom. :-)

Re:Give up

[arth1]

I find that older people are better at picking up new things. They have a lot more experience and context than someone still wet behind the ears, and if old enough, are also used to figure out things on their own, because there was no training. In fact, they may have a harder time with training than without. Give them a man page, not a teacher.

The main problem I see is letting older people do something new. They tend to be experts at things that requires experience, and which is vital for the business. So they aren't allowed to move away from that.

Re:Give up

[Anonymous Coward]

In my case, I can say that the main issue for me has been having a child. We have children later in life nowadays and I think some of the problems that people associate with older employees may have less to do with age and more to do with family.

When I did not have a child, I was an extremely reliable employee. I could work the whole weekend in an emergency if something needed to get done. If I told you a problem was going to be solved come hell or high water, it would get solved. I could stay up all night trying to fix it. I would also spend a lot of my personal time learning new technical skills, reading about new trends, working in projects etc. I was very punctual and I was pretty much guaranteed to be in the office at the very same time every single day. Life is completely different now and my child is my number one priority. If she is sick, either my wife or I need to stay at home with her. This can happen at a very short notice. If it is time to pick her up at the daycare, I have to drop absolutely everything in the office and rush out the door. I no longer have any free time available to invest in my hobbies and interests (and learn new things as a result).

These are problems that have long impacted women in the work place. They were less likely to be promoted in part because the employers did not know what kind of commitment women would be able to offer after having a child. Nowadays, we live in a more equitable society so the burden of raising children is split equally between parents. I am not saying this is bad thing but the result is that both parents are no longer able to fully commit to their careers after having children.

I love my child but the reality is that I am a shittier employee after she was born. The reality is also that I no longer care that much about my career. I will not make any sacrifices that could impact my family. If I were a manager, I would probably prefer to hire a younger person with no children simply because I believe I would be able to get more out of them (and perhaps for a lower price).

Re:Patience with the yonge ones :-)

[FryingLizard]

Javascript baffles many "older" programmers, usually it's something along the lines of "Why the fuck is this godawful shit-show of a language so widely used?"

Been doing this for 30 years

[EmperorOfCanada]

I am shocked at the number of 20 somethings that are a decade or more out of date. I am not talking about jumping on the latest and greatest, node.go or whatever, but simply aren't using the latest version (often off by years) of their existing tools. I am not talking religious wars such as C++ vs Java, but programmers who aren't using testing, not using any code analysis tools, not using patterns properly, using globals like they were bicyclist in a performance enhancing drug mart, and all the usual bad practices.

Then to make it worse they will use "modern" techniques like they are some magic spell. If you way-over apply the technique, then it will magically make up for the lousy choice in just about everything else. Let's use multi inheritance OOP on our single SQL call to the single table in the single database. Or let's use the factory pattern for what should have been a single function that takes one parameter.

I am not leaving older programmers out of this. Usually there are subtle differences. They don't realize that things have massively changed in the last 10 years. Threads aren't bad, the GPU can do stuff, disk is pretty much free, don't conserve memory in your single purpose server with 32GB and your application is only using 2.

My advice for any programmer, young or old, is to be flexible. A great choice may not really be the great choice, it may be an illusion. So be prepared to change. And experiment. Lots and lots of experiments. Try out new languages. Try out new datastores. Try out new OSs. Try out new IDEs. If you see the cool kids doing something that requires a fundamental new skill that you don't have, then learn the fundamental new skill. With ML you need linear algebra and some calculus to really get to the meat of the subject. So learn the libraries and if they seem like your future, learn the fundamentals.

To be a great programmer you have to be both a specialist and a Renaissance man. So nail something like C++ networking(as just one specialist example), but make sure you can configure a database, set up a server, program in Python, etc.

Then there are the domains of knowledge. This is where it can get tricky. Do you perfect the game industry, or do you jump from games, to banking, to engine control units? We all know that having a diverse experience will really help. I am dead certain that what you learn in games could easily bring some wildly creative approaches to engine control units; yet the HR types are "How many years have you been working with ECUs?" I have successfully leapt more than once from pretty fundamental tech to completely different fundamental tech. Not easy, but very worth it.

When to leave

[penguinoid]

How to recognize when a company quietly labels you an "older programmer" rather than an "experienced programmer".

Let's define old

[hughbar]

I had my 66th birthday, a week ago. So, officially in the UK, I'm retired.

However, I still program and still learn new stuff, at the moment a lot of technology around the Raspberry Pi. I'm also a philosophy undergraduate and, as such, I have to do formal (propositional and predicate) logic, so I'm refreshing my Prolog a little, because we're going to do a workshop for some of the other students.

I don't consider myself to be particularly bright, but I do enjoy technology (and learning, in general) so I'm self-motivated by curiosity. My feeling is that motivation will probably matter more than age, if the person isn't somewhat engaged, they probably are not going to learn. It's one of the big dangers of doing something just because it's well-paid. I've been lucky, working at something I like and it's pretty well-paid as well.

What Training Helps Older Programmers Most?

[MindPrison]

What Training Helps Older Programmers Most?

Here's your answer: Stop thinking of yourself as older!

When we get older, there are several hurdles we need to pass, one of them is our mindset. If we see ourselves as "older" instead of more experienced, we will often display this trough our actions and our talk with others. People will then also perceive us as "older" rather than experienced.

If youre the "go-getter" type that will rater spend time solving tasks and problems than spend time on age related issues, you will soon forget age. Sure, the occasional aging symptoms like back pains and other irritating signs of age will remind you, but if you try to stay healthy and fit - you need not remind yourself of this and others will take no notice of your "age".

Im in my 50s now, and people often remark how young I am, why? Its my attitude. I get things done, I have fun with my coworkers, and I totally forget my age. In my mind Im not a day over 20.

Those companies who miss out just because of ageism - will lose big money on it, not to mention sour up their own work-culture as everyone will be afraid of becoming older rather than embrance this valuable experience. Those companies have a tendency to fail in other areas too.

Your best training - is your mindset.

Re:As an older programmer...

[Big Hairy Ian]

As an older programmer if I need to learn a technology I learn it! The problem I face is the amount of ageism in this industry! Once you're over 40 most firms just don't seem to be interested.

Re:As an older programmer...

[hey!]

Same is true in my experience. It doesn't matter what your record of accomplishment is either -- in fact it's almost a handicap to have an impressive resume when you're older.

One thing I noticed is when it started to get harder to get interviews, when I did get an interview everyone would seem excited about bringing me on ... except the hiring manager. The first time it happened I thought it was a fluke, but after it happened a number of times I realized: nobody wants to supervise someone with more experience than they have.

So my advice to older programmers is: don't put your hopes in gaining even more expertise. It works against you. Start your own business, or get training in some other kind of job.

Re:As an older programmer...

[cayenne8]

So my advice to older programmers is: don't put your hopes in gaining even more expertise. It works against you. Start your own business, or get training in some other kind of job.

Get into contracting, where experience is very much valued.

If you have a clean record, get into GOVERNMENT CONTRACTING....you can make good money there, and contracts are long lasting (years at a time).

Do make sure to incorporate yourself first.