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Why Tesla's New Solar Roof Tiles and Home Battery Are Such a Big Deal (techcrunch.com)
On October 28th, Tesla founder and CEO Elon Musk unveiled the residential "solar roof," consisting of glass roof tiles with integrated solar panels. Not only are they more durable than traditional roof panels, but they offer efficiency that is 98 percent as good as traditional, photovoltaic panels. The company also announced the Powerwall 2, a home battery that can store 14 kWh of energy, with a 5 kW continuous power draw, and 7 kW peak. It's designed to store the energy from the solar roof during day to power your home at night. Darrell Etherington via TechCrunch explains why these solar roof tiles are such a big deal: It's easy to dismiss the aesthetic import of how Tesla's tiles look, but it's actually important, and a real consideration for homeowners looking to build new homes or revamp their existing ones. The appearance of the tiles, which come in four distinct flavors (Textured Glass, Slate Glass, Tuscan Glass and Smooth Glass) is going to be a core consideration for prospective buyers, especially those at the top end of the addressable market with the disposable income available to do everything they can to ensure their home looks as good as it possibly can. As with other kinds of technologies that are looking to make the leap from outlier oddity to mainstream mainstay, solar has a hurdle to leap in terms of customer perception. Existing solar designs, and even so-called attempts to make them more consistent with traditional offerings like the above-mentioned Dow Chemical project, leave a lot to be desired in terms of creating something that can be broadly described as good-looking. Tesla has been referred to as the Apple of the automotive world by more than a few analysts and members of the media, and if there's one thing Apple does well, it's capitalize on the so-called -- halo effect. This is the phenomenon whereby customers of one of its lines of business are likely to become customers of some of the others; iPhone buyers tend to often go on to own a Mac, for instance. For Tesla, this represents an opportunity to jump-start its home solar business (which it'll take on in earnest provided its planned acquisition of SolarCity goes through) through the knock-on effects of its brisk Tesla EV sales, including the tremendous pre-order interest for the Model 3. Tesla's solar tiles claim to be able to power a standard home, and provide spare power via the new Powerwall 2 battery in case of inclement weather or other outages. Musk says that the overall cost will still be less than installing a regular old roof and paying the electric company for power from conventional sources. But Musk's claims about the new benefits of the new solutions don't end there. Tesla's tiles will actually be more resilient than traditional roofing materials, including terra-cotta, clay and slate tiles. Solar roofing, Powerwall and Tesla cars taken together represent a new kind of ecosystem in consumer tech, one that carries a promise of self-sufficiency in addition to ecological benefits. Tesla has already tipped its hand with respect to how it intends to make vehicle ownership a revenue generator for its drivers, rather than a cost center.
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What's up with that? Is Musk creating a new line of solar cash machines? Funny acronym.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
I saw the announcement, and sure, the roofing tiles LOOKED nice, but there was absolutely no mention of their efficiency, or how they would connect to each other. Elon however did go out of his way to demonstrate that there was some kind of "micro-louvre" layer that hides the solar cell from view unless you're looking at it straight on. The people in the crowd clapped, and I just shook my head, because that would actually REDUCE the amount of sunlight it can be exposed to.
Another demonstration was where they dropped a 10lb weight on each of the classic roofing tiles and then a solar tile. While the solar tile didn't shatter into shards like the other tiles did, I bet the underlying pv cell was no longer operational after that. Then you would have to either manually bypass it in the circuit, or replace it. Either way, if you're climbing up on the roof to do that, you might just as well replace it.
My last concern is (as always) how would this system perform in a northern area. I live in Minnesota, where 1/3rd of the year is dark, and roofs are covered with feet of snow. We don't see a whole lot of Tesla automobiles here either. How does the new Powerwall 2 in your garage hold up to -20f degree winters?
It's also easy to overlook the aesthetic impact of proper character encodings!
In a way that is largely irrelevant (impact of a heavy dense object), and entirely ignores the most common roofing material - asphalt shingles.
Asphalt or fiberglass shingles aren't all that tough. In general, the higher the pitch of the roof, the longer they last. On a low pitch roof such as mine, 25 year shingles last 10-15 years. Just how it is. I've had branches come down and damage them. Get enough damage, and you better hope they still make the same color after a few years - uness you don't mind a trashy looking roof. Even the replacements you should buy - I have several bundles sitting in my shed, will look different for a few years. And having replaced my roof shingles twice since I bought my place - they aren't cheap.
Quasi-permanent sounds damn good to me.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
A few things.
First, 5kw is a quarter the normal service normally provided. We have a 20 kw drop; that's normal. It's not about what you use normally, either, it's about the toaster, the vacuum, the frig, the freezer, the AC, etc. all kicking on at once. It happens -- don't think it doesn't. That's why there's a 100 amp main system breaker in your typical breaker box. 100 amps at 240 volts. 5kw is about 25 amps at 240 (yes, you almost certainly have a 240 system... there are two 120v legs, and some stuff in the house is on one, and some stuff is on the other. A few things -- dryers, electric stoves, AC systems, things like that -- are on both legs and actually use 240.)
Second, that battery... that's an expensive component, and one with a decidedly limited lifetime. There's going to be an ongoing maintainance cost there, and you should factor it in if you aren't just going to be compulsively home-swapping. Same with current EV designs, for that matter.
Third, watch out for microinverter-based designs. These place small inverters all over the solar cell system, typically one every panel or every few panels (in this case, it would X number of tiles, if it's a microinverter design.) Every installation that uses them that I've come across thus far is a horrific generator of radio frequency interference. It'll do everything from reduce your wifi and bluetooth ranges to blow out your AM and FM reception and anything else going on that actually uses, you know, radio. A quality installation has a central, single, high-quality, high-power inverter. Those shitty little "we do solar power cheap!" companies... there's a very good reason they're cheaper. Because the stuff they install is crapola.
All you want coming from the roof / panel farm is well-filtered DC. Period.
I would hope, given the size of the energy conversion systems in their vehicles, that they didn't go that way, or, that they broke new ground and built quality systems that are actually RF quiet. But it's something to keep in mind until we know more about these proposed systems.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
I live in Colorado Springs, reported to be the second best place in the country for photovoltaic applications with 320 days of sunshine per year with moderate winter weather. However, we have one problem and that's hail propelled at 40 to 60 MPH (or greater speeds) down on roofs. It's great for the roofing businesses, but for glass roofs, likely not so good. I'm not talking about those little golf ball hail stones but hail stones the size of tennis balls building piles of hail two feet deep. An expensive glass roof should survive such a storm. I want to see the test results for such an event.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
The grid operator/utility doesn't actually do business with the home owner. Home owners are too small for the effort involved. What the grid operator does business with is called an aggregation entity (Solar City etc). This is why the home owner still buys power at silly low rates.
The aggregation entity does all the accounting and sells the energy the homeowner doesn't use or store to the grid operator at rates mandated by regulatory agencies. The sell rate to the home owner NOT regulated in any way, only the sell to the grid.
That same entity is also involved in what are called rate up/rate down events. This is where the entity get's paid for being able to supply energy during peak loads OR more importantly absorbing and storing energy during excess generation periods. This is why the system having storage is important. Also of note, the home owner does NOT participate is revenues derived from rate up/rate down events.
First obvious drawback: solar cells are only useful on south-facing slopes, meaning non-matching tiles on the north-facing slope of the roof. Of course, I want a wedge shaped house where the entire roof is a north-facing slope, so that the southern exposure shines light through high windows then reflects down off the ceiling. In other words, solar ceiling tiles are only good in the situation where you have no other space to put them in -- but then, most new suburban lots are like that.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
>> I live in Minnesota, where 1/3rd of the year is dark
Well that sounds like a perfect place to do solar! In all the places I've lived, it's dark a full half of the year - the locals call often call it "night".
I'm sure they are strong enough to walk on. I have a different worry: on a steep roof, they would be a lot more slippery than asphalt shingles, especially here in the northwest where is rain so much that moss grows on our roofs! Yes, it seems like you would need to pressure wash them several times a year to keep dirt from lowering their efficiency, so you would spend a lot more time cleaning off your roof. Asphalt tile, you basically pay someone $300 to pressure wash the roof every 8 years.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Frankly FROSTY PISS and GNAA is plenty for me, let's not get emojis in the mix as well.
On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
DC filtered from what if there are no inverters?
With small tiles that's a lot of wires even if several panels are connected in series.
There are other benefits of micro-inverters, such as maximizing power generation per-panel and panel health monitoring.
Besides to make a "quiet" powerful inverter it takes a lot of capacitance that is localized in single device. Costly repair?
There are compromises both ways.
4wdloop
"Solar FREAKIN' Roof Tiles!"
"Now With LASERS!"
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
There's no point if its too expensive, or if the durability is 25 years (which destroys the whole payback equation). This is kinda like the power-wall. Great concept, but the technology isn't quite there yet. And it may not be quite there for solar roofing tiles either.
Speaking of which, several companies tried selling solar roofing tiles in the past, and had to give up on lack of sales. It isn't a new technology. The question is... is it good enough to hit the necessary sweet spot? My guess... probably not yet.
-Matt
Great concept, but the technology isn't quite there yet.
Actually, the technology - both photovoltaic and battery - has just gotten there over the last couple years. (Inverters have been there a while but have been improving as well, thanks to Moore's Law.)
It's good to see Musk trying to deploy it commercially.
It's easy to fall into the "It's always 12 (or whatever) years out" fallacy. Sometimes the new inventions DO lead to a practical design and it becomes profitable to actually build and and sell it now, even if it will be obsoleted by an improved version in a couple years.
One of the big drivers of battery (and inverter) technology, by the way, is electric automobiles. Musk has been honing the bleeding edge of that curve for quite a while now. With photovoltaic generation having "crossed over" grid power price-performance - even without subsidies - for much of the potential sites in the continental US, merging it with the new ultra-efficient, ultra-fast battery technologies and high-end, smart, peak-power-tracking/charge control/inverter designs to form a total system makes good business sense.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Shingles get removed from my residence by wind.
What I find interesting about "alternate" roof materials is their failure modes. When a metal roof fails it fails along predictable seams and both maintenance and mitigation are much, much simpler than with a traditional wood/asphalt roof. It also doesn't catch fire when flaming debris falls on it. On that basis alone, asphalt roofs and indeed wooden roof trusses and covering should be illegal. Every building code in the nation, right now. That's an embarrassingly flammable shit-show and we have had the technology to fix the problem for over a century.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Let's face it, given the "Can't work, won't work" attitude that seems to be the majority here, even a person with half the drive of Musk would keep showing up in the headlines.
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
How many house fires start because of the roof catching fire? Seems pretty unlikely for freestanding structures...
How many house fires start because of the roof catching fire? Seems pretty unlikely for freestanding structures...
A massive shitload, actually. It's unusual for it to happen to one house, but it's very common for it to happen to a whole bunch of houses during a general conflagration. During forest fires, it's not unusual for burning debris to be thrown for miles. And let's not forget that propane tanks are more common in wooded areas, that they become bombs in major fires in spite of the cute little pressure relief system, and that they will throw burning debris even further. But even house fires can spread this way; houses sometimes explode in fires even nowhere near a forest.
While it might be reasonable to use asphalt roofs in the desert, it is utterly unconscionable to permit them in wooded regions. And most of us want to live around trees...
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
How many house fires start because of the roof catching fire? Seems pretty unlikely for freestanding structures...
A massive shitload, actually. It's unusual for it to happen to one house, but it's very common for it to happen to a whole bunch of houses during a general conflagration. During forest fires, it's not unusual for burning debris to be thrown for miles
In areas where such things are common (South West US, California, Eastern Washington) I could probably agree. But they are not common in most of the US.
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
By making solar a competitive solution, the US has encouraged a competitive market for solar manufacturers, who are coming up with innovative products. Mass adoption can be trusted to drive down costs due to economies of scale. If you think that solar will eventually be viable, what is the problem with investing in it now?
In the longest term, solar power seems like an inevitable necessity. The Sun supplies too much energy for it not to be a major component of our energy production. From that perspective, insisting on this technology spending another few decades as a laboratory curiosity (like fusion) seems a little shortsighted. Development is going to come faster if there's money to be made doing so. If that's the future we want, and we can afford the subsidy, we should continue to subsidize solar power.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.