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Judge Orders Amazon Refunds for Children's In-app Purchases (reuters.com)

Posted by msmash on from the fix-things dept.

A federal judge has directed Amazon to set up a year-long process to reimburse parents whose children made in-app purchases without permission, but rejected a U.S. regulator's request for a $26.5 million lump-sum payout. Reuters reports:U.S. District Judge John Coughenour, in Amazon's hometown of Seattle, issued his order more than six months after finding the online retailer liable, in a case brought by the Federal Trade Commission. The FTC in July 2014 accused Amazon of making it too easy for children to run up bills while playing games such as "Pet Shop Story" and "Ice Age Village" on mobile devices, resulting in an estimated $86 million of unauthorized charges.

37 of 54 comments (clear)

  1. I blame game developers too by ZorinLynx · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Rather than create complete, cohesive games and charging a single price to play them, they design the games around having to buy stuff constantly to progress.

    I remember when Angry Birds came out; you would buy the game once and that's it. Buy the game, hand the tablet to a kid and they can play all they want without having to buy anything.

    These days those games are the exception rather than the rule.

    1. Re:I blame game developers too by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 3, Informative

      Then you have things like "Lego Dimensions" and "Skylander" which is equally ridiculous. My son wants them and I keep telling him that they're games for idiots. Why buy a game that you have to keep paying more and more to continuously to get new characters. It's a business technique to milk money from naïve people.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    2. Re:I blame game developers too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Blame everybody but the fucking parents, amirite?

      This ruling is very bad for society; people need to learn to take care of their own shit.

    3. Re:I blame game developers too by taustin · · Score: 1

      It's hardly a new idea. Magic: The Gathering was based on the same business model, and Warhammer 40k before that. Most parents would rather spend money for babysitting, even by a toy, than pay attention to their kids.

    4. Re:I blame game developers too by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Two or three times now, our kids have "broken" the Kindle tablet's parental controls and ordered a bunch of stuff (apps, mostly) - so far, all it has ever taken is for us to dig up the (difficult to find) Amazon customer service links, chat with some dude in India for 5 minutes, and everything is refunded within a day or three.

      Hell of a lot more efficient than a lawsuit.

    5. Re:I blame game developers too by JoeMerchant · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Amazon, and all web retailers, need to understand that they cannot enter binding contracts with minors.

      Amazon in particular provides the Kindle tablet hardware with (laughably easy to circumvent) parental controls to prevent children from making purchases without parental permission, and yet, it happens anyway. They have cheerfully refunded all purchases that my children made, but we usually catch these things and start corrective actions within 24 hours or less... maybe it gets stickier if the parents don't notice until later.

      In any event, the legal question- being decided in the lawsuit- is whether or not parents can be held accountable for contracts entered into by their minor children. That answer has always been: no, and the fact that children inadvertantly came to possess access to the parent's credit information without the parents' permission does not change that.

    6. Re:I blame game developers too by zifn4b · · Score: 1

      Rather than create complete, cohesive games and charging a single price to play them, they design the games around having to buy stuff constantly to progress.

      I don't agree the solution is to go back to stand-alone games. I like the new game model where a game is released and additional content is released at a price. These newer game engines allow games to evolve over time. The only reason to release a new stand alone game is if a new game engine is developed that is incompatible with the previous one.

      What you are complaining about is "pay to win" games. Most of those games don't require you to pay for the additional content to enjoy the game. However, if you get hooked by the psychological drive to be competitive with other players then that's your fault. People need to take some personal responsibility for their own behavior. If you don't like this type of game or lack self control (check your ego), don't play it and don't let your kids play it. Simple as that. Don't ruin it for the others.

      --
      We'll make great pets
    7. Re:I blame game developers too by Shane_Optima · · Score: 1

      Amazon, and all web retailers, need to understand that they cannot enter binding contracts with minors.

      Not strictly true. As I recall, minors generally retain the option to reverse any contract, but they are free to enter into contracts and if they choose to not reverse it then it remains binding on both parties. In this case, with the DLC being so easy to "give back" to Amazon, they of course should have been able to reverse the contract for a full refund.

    8. Re:I blame game developers too by omnichad · · Score: 1

      don't require you to pay for the additional content to complete the game

      FTFY. These games are designed to be as frustrating / time-consuming as possible. You will not enjoy it unless you hand over money.

    9. Re:I blame game developers too by brewthatistrue · · Score: 1

      On the Google Play Store I see "Unlock" apps sold all the time that work in conjunction with the free version to upgrade it to the full version.

      e.g.

      sleep as android
      https://play.google.com/store/...

      series guide x
      https://play.google.com/store/...

      Most of the crap games out there don't even have the possibility of a full version purchase.

      e.g. official bust-a-move (aka puzzle bobble) on android https://www.amazon.com/TAITO-C...

    10. Re:I blame game developers too by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      As a parent, I could protect my kid from a lot of things. In case of a direct physical attack by someone competent with violence, I would have been unable to protect him (as opposed to occupy the assailant while he ran away). This would be a case where a sophisticated company would have been doing a direct psychological attack on my son with the intention of getting him to spend money or get really upset. I'm outgunned in that case, and I want help.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    11. Re: I blame game developers too by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and setting that option on an iPhone required going two or three menus deep, and when I checked the menus didn't have very helpful names. I didn't see anything about it in any obvious place. I only looked for it after one of these cases came up. I'm actually pretty intelligent, and it took some poking around. I shouldn't have to do unusual things to defend against an attack.

      So, I should assume that, if I can find a crack through your security, you're OK with me draining your bank account?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    12. Re:I blame game developers too by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Speaking as a parent, sometimes I had the kid around and had to pay attention to something else. If I knew that was going to happen, I could bring a book or toy along with me. If I didn't, letting him play with my phone was better than trying to divide my attention and making nobody happy. You may not have realized this, but parenthood doesn't come with assistance in dealing with all other areas of my life so I can pay attention to the kid 24/7/365.

      MtG (which I spent plenty of money on) was always straightforward: I could spend money on those booster packs, or I could refrain. In-app purchases can be disguised to the child doesn't know what he or she is doing.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    13. Re: I blame game developers too by taustin · · Score: 1

      If the parents don't put the credit card number into the phone (and buy one where they can do that), then they have given their snowflake a credit card, and sent them down to the game shop without supervision.

    14. Re:I blame game developers too by taustin · · Score: 1

      Would you give your kid a credit card to go buy M:tG cards at the local shop without going along? No? Then why would you give your kid a phone with a credit card input into it and let him play games with in-app purchases without supervision? It's the same thing. Yes, it really is.

      If you want the convenience of having your phone babysit your kid, and the convenience of having your credit card stored in the phone and accessible to apps, then you accept the responsibility for your phone being a shitty babysitter.

    15. Re: I blame game developers too by taustin · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and setting that option on an iPhone required going two or three menus deep, and when I checked the menus didn't have very helpful names.

      It's less inconvenience than trying to get charges reversed after Precious Snowflake spends all your money on some game. There's this thing that humans can do, called "foresight" or "planning." Try it sometime. You can look up instructions on Google.

      So, I should assume that, if I can find a crack through your security, you're OK with me draining your bank account?

      That would be a meaningful comparison if we were talking about your kid stealing your phone without your permission, and you filed criminal charges against him for doing so.

    16. Re:I blame game developers too by psithurism · · Score: 1

      I played Magic the Gathering as a Kid. As young as 10 I saved up my allowance to buy physical objects from a store with my physical money. I understood exactly how that transaction worked (even with gift cards), and my parents, though not entirely approving of my choices, understood what was going on.

      Now in my 30s working as an IT professional, I've got my parental controls against purchases maxed out on my own devices because half the time I don't understand whether I'm buying something or not. And my parents? On a good day, they might remember their passwords, they'd be helpless to protect me even if they were still helicoptering.

      Your right that marketing virtual collectable toys to kids isn't new, but the predatory tricks that current companies employ are.

    17. Re:I blame game developers too by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      Most professional game developers I know (who work on PC and console games) also despise the freemium-style games as the exploitive crapware that they are. And it's certainly not relegated to mobile games, but it does seem endemic there, as well as with online-only games (Facebook, MMOs, etc). But unfortunately, that model has proven to be financially successful, and so it continues. People are reluctant to pay up front for a games, which is understandable when there's a lot of garbage out there, but these games thrive on finding and exploiting addictive personalities who often pay enormous amounts of money for ridiculously overpriced in-game items.

      Still, it's not hard to find games you can buy once and play forever, as you claim. Look for games with an up-front cost and no in-app purchases. There are a gazillion of them. Plenty of developers still prefer that nice, straightforward financial model. But unless people support that nice, straightforward financial model, you'll continue to get a lot of freemium play-to-play crap.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    18. Re:I blame game developers too by zifn4b · · Score: 1

      FTFY. These games are designed to be as frustrating / time-consuming as possible.

      Sorry but that's a personal preference. Some people like grind games. Have you played Kittens game or Cookie Clicker?

      --
      We'll make great pets
    19. Re:I blame game developers too by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      I would consider any contract with the option to reverse to be non-binding...

    20. Re:I blame game developers too by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Obviously, I wouldn't give the kid a credit card. I wouldn't give him a phone that could be used for credit card purchases deliberately, either.

      The setting for requiring a password for any transaction is there, but pretty well hidden. The game developers do their best to encourage such purchases. There's no warning. The whole scam depends on parents and children not realizing how doing something in-app spends real money. It's a confidence scheme that works on honest people.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    21. Re: I blame game developers too by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Ever raised a kid? If so, did you do web searches and research projects to find out what to do in all situations? Or did you try making decisions without enough information?

      Also, it isn't hard to contest charges on a credit card bill.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    22. Re:I blame game developers too by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Most professional game developers I know (who work on PC and console games) also despise the freemium-style games as the exploitive crapware that they are. And it's certainly not relegated to mobile games, but it does seem endemic there, as well as with online-only games (Facebook, MMOs, etc). But unfortunately, that model has proven to be financially successful, and so it continues. People are reluctant to pay up front for a games, which is understandable when there's a lot of garbage out there, but these games thrive on finding and exploiting addictive personalities who often pay enormous amounts of money for ridiculously overpriced in-game items.

      Still, it's not hard to find games you can buy once and play forever, as you claim. Look for games with an up-front cost and no in-app purchases. There are a gazillion of them. Plenty of developers still prefer that nice, straightforward financial model. But unless people support that nice, straightforward financial model, you'll continue to get a lot of freemium play-to-play crap.
      Flag as Inappropriate

      It depends.

      Say you get a high level in a game, then something happens. Do you want to grind for another 100 hours to get back to where you were, or are you going to say "F-it, I'll pay $5 to get back to where I was"?

      Sure on PC it's a bit distorted because most of these grinding games are online where a backup exists in the cloud, but there are games that are played offline where levelling up does take some grinding (Fallout 4, say). And there have been more than a few bugs related to savegames getting corrupted (either by say, Sony on the PS4, or in the game itself (I don't think Fallout 4, but others)).

      There are plenty of "freemium" games that are truly free and non-exploitative. They also happen to be a lot of the games people play consistently because they do demand a bit of a grind (Jetpack Joyride comes to mind, and I paid for it when it was non-freemium in the beginning).

      Then there is the crap that is flooded the market.

      I use a metric called "Time to first money". Basically it's how long you can play before a demand for money comes up. Lousy games typically get you within 10 minutes or less, but usually within an hour. Good games almost never demand money - they will encourage you to spend money, but they won't demand it of you. And the best games simply don't even ask for it at all - you will stumble on their "buy gold, etc" page, but they certainly don't make a big deal whether or not you do anything there. And the very best don't even limit you during play - you can play forever without wearing out batteries or draining energy or whatever - you can play forever as many times as you want, for free.

      It's a very effective metric.

  2. Re:Refund everything by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

    1) They send you an e-mail confirming the order before they ship it and they don't charge you until they ship it.
    2) Most things on Amazon has free returns on them.
    3) If you want a refund you'll need to return the goods.

    --
    "That's the way to do it" - Punch
  3. This is why you never hook a CC to your device by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1

    The nicest thing about Android phones and tablets is that you can create an account and use the App store without ever putting in a credit card. That's the only way I could imagine letting my kids use those things. It's also why I don't use any Apple devices (except as I have to for work). There's just way too much risk with hooking your credit card up to a phone or tablet - you're just nuts if you do that AND hand it to a kid.

    1. Re:This is why you never hook a CC to your device by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      and apple needs the password to install free apps (I think now you can turn that off but it does not work all the time)

      with Android it works and set up that way by default.

    2. Re: This is why you never hook a CC to your device by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1

      >> in apple in-app purchases has an entry in restrictions also you can make it so any purchases ask for your password

      Google has this too. However, it's safer to just never have your CC hooked up to a mobile account - period - so I just avoid Apple's ecosystem.

    3. Re:This is why you never hook a CC to your device by omnichad · · Score: 1

      You can still do this on Apple devices, but it's a pain. Either by buying a small gift card to jumpstart the account or by removing the CC after adding it to your account.

    4. Re:This is why you never hook a CC to your device by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      When we got my son an iPad for a high school graduation present, he didn't have a credit card and we didn't provide one. We gave him an iTunes gift card with the iPad so he could buy some stuff with his account. I don't remember it being any big deal.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  4. Re:Refund everything by ArtemaOne · · Score: 1

    I think the joke went over his head.

  5. apple wantted a CC to get a free mac os update by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    apple wantted a CC to get a free mac os update.

    It just would not let you download it without having a way to pay on your apple ID.

    1. Re:apple wantted a CC to get a free mac os update by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Really? I never had that problem.

      You must have been holding it wrong.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  6. Re:Refund everything by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

    If he didn't get the joke he should be able to get a refund.

  7. Re:Refund everything by ArtemaOne · · Score: 1

    If he never received it, the tracking should show as much.

  8. Re:Refund everything by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

    Tracking shows lots of things arriving at my house that never actually got here... including the humor behind lots of internet jokes.

  9. Re:Unbelievable by omnichad · · Score: 1

    Amazon designed the ecosystem and marketed it as kid-friendly / kid-safe with special tablets. If they don't make it properly easy to lock it down correctly, it's on them.

  10. Re:Why do your kids have access to credit info? by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

    Why do your kids have access to a device that contains your credit, banking, debit, or other private information?

    Seems to me that is the parenting failure right there.

    The Amazon Kindle (Fire and otherwise) won't function without linkage to credit information. Amazon promotes this device for use by minor children and provides (apparently less than 100% effective) parental controls to enable parents to let the children use the device without permission to use the line of credit.

    When your teenage child lifts your wallet and goes on a spending spree with your credit card, is that your parenting failure? Personally, I'd rather teach them early about limits and acceptable behavior instead of keeping everything under lock and key that they will eventually be able to break. A computer tablet at age 9 seems like a much safer way to learn than a credit card or checkbook at age 17.