FBI Relents, Confirms Previously-Denied UFO Investigation (muckrock.com)

Long-time Slashdot reader v3rgEz writes: A Freedom of Information Act request for FBI files on a figure at the center of dozens of 20th century conspiracy theories reveals a rare glimpse into the Bureau's real-life "X-Files" -- which the agency had long maintained don't exist. And while there's no evidence yet of Mulder or Scully, the files do include a story of flying saucers and secret assassins stranger than anything on the show.
Specifically the documents detail the FBI's 1947 investigation into "flying discs" reported by early conspiracy theorist Fred Lee Crisman, describing "the Maury Island Incident" (picked up by U.S newspapers) which helped popularize the legend of UFO witnesses being detained by "men in black". Ironically, Crisman was later linked to one of the CIA's anti-Castro groups, connecting him another popular topic for conspiracy theorists: the assassination of President Kennedy.

Comments

Possible explanation

[zifn4b]

Perhaps they didn't admit to the investigation because it's embarrassing how much time and energy was put into investigating a hoax?

Re:Possible explanation

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if they were "Hoax(s)" that doesn't mean investigating them wasn't worth doing.

Look at the crop circles fad that happened in the 90s, etc. That ended up proving several new geometric proofs (in relationship between circles and triangles IIRC)

Investigating Hoax(s) are worth the time of the FBI, if nothing else than to produce a back-catalog of hoaxes and how they were preformed.... BUT... the key to this is transparency and oversight... something the FBI has NEVER wanted (Ignoring the events over the past 6mos that are a prime example)

Re:Possible explanation

[Anonymous Coward]

This was during Cold War, so of course they investigated UFOs. Both sides even tried to train 'paranormal media' to find out if they could be used for spying. Guess what, the results were not convincing.

Re:Possible explanation

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at the crop circles fad that happened in the 90s, etc. That ended up proving several new geometric proofs (in relationship between circles and triangles IIRC)

What the shit?

Re:Possible explanation

[Anonymous Coward]

>Look at the crop circles fad that happened in the 90s, etc. That ended up proving several new geometric proofs (in relationship between circles and triangles IIRC)

That is 100% complete bullshit. I am so confident in this I won't even say "I'm 99% sure that's not correct, please provide sources."
There is nothing fundamentally new or interesting that mathematicians learned from crop circles.

Re:Possible explanation

[Calydor]

Hell, even if the FBI laughed their butts off at the idea of an extra-terrestrial craft crashing on Earth they would STILL go check that it wasn't a Soviet nuke!

Re:Possible explanation

[Zocalo]

I recalled something on this too, so I did a little Googling. Turns out that a former Chair of the Astronomy Dept. at Boston University called Gerald S. Hawkins did indeed propose some theories based on designs found in crop circles. There's more than a little kookiness in the search results because a lot of the nature of the topic, not helped by some echos of Gödel Escher Bach with some musical connections in his findings, but there does appear to be some genuine math behind it - although it's questionable whether the perpetrators of the crop circles were just using trial and error or actually doing the math first. Basically, it all comes down to relationships between nested regular polygons that touch at each vertex or mid-point of an edge, e.g. a circle that touches all four corners of a square and so on. Euclid documented many of these, but Hawkins supposedly found a bunch of new variations that he (or anyone else) failed to find any evidence of past proofs for; it's hardly up there with Pythagoras' theorem, but they are genuine geometric theorems.

Re: Possible explanation

[Anonymous Coward]

Theorems don't have to be profoundly useful or game-changing in any way, they just have to be unique and mathematically correct.

Re: Possible explanation

[Zocalo]

No, that was my point - I thought I'd emphasised that in the last line. It might - quite literally - have come out of a field of study riddled with hoaxes and kooks, but it does appear that Hawkins discovered a set of previously unknown Euclidean-style geometric relationships in his meticulous study of the various designs the perpetrators used.

Re:Possible explanation

[lgw]

Heck, the FBI was involved in the one big conspiracy-coverup we know was true from the 20th century - and the UFO investigations were key to it.

When game-changing new airplane designs from stealth technology to the SR-71 were being invented, during the height of the cold war, it was all about secrecy - but what do you do about eye-witnesses to these odd-looking planes, including people like pilots that it's hard to write off as kooks? You investigate each reported sighting as a "UFO sighting", and then loudly deny that you're investigating UFO sightings.

The plan seems to have worked pretty well - eye witness reports and even some photographs of experimental aircraft were dismissed as fakes by the public - and as far as we know, by the Russians. The more interesting the reports - triangular aircraft with no tails, aircraft moving faster and higher than anything known - the more easily it was dismissed as "UFO nuts". Brilliant plan, really, and the only modern conspiracy I know of that actually kept a secret long enough to matter.

Re: Possible explanation

[Anonymous Coward]

Err... Acoustics were used to listen for aircraft. There are plenty of acoustic mirrors still around. The thing the British made up was eating carrots so you could see in the dark.

Re: Possible explanation

[CODiNE]

Sounds like some local cryptographers having fun.

Re:Possible explanation

[JWSmythe]

Sure it would have. And it would have been reposted 3 to 10 times in following weeks, because no one checked to prevent dupes.

Re: Possible explanation

[dbIII]

Euclidean-style geometric relationships

Obviously a hoax then.
If I know my Lovecraft those aliens will be doing non-euclidean stuff.

Re: Possible explanation

[Zocalo]

Amongst other groups, I think that more than likely. Most crop circles in the UK tend to occur in a belt across the South of England that includes GCHQ, several stone circles including Stonehenge, several universities including Oxford and Warwick, then London, and is well served by arterial roads to facilitate fairly rapid access to suitable fields. Factor in that the crops ripen in autumn, just after the new intake of student happens each year, and there are some pretty obvious potential sources of perpetrators who would have the necessary math, ingenuity, inclination and sense of humour necessary to pull it off.

Re:Possible explanation

[zifn4b]

Even if they were "Hoax(s)" that doesn't mean investigating them wasn't worth doing.

I'm pretty sure my tax dollars could be put to better use...

Re:Possible explanation

[eric_harris_76]

Look at the crop circles fad that happened in the 90s, etc. That ended up proving several new geometric proofs (in relationship between circles and triangles IIRC)

Do tell. With links, preferably.

Re:Possible explanation

[Phoghat]

triangular aircraft with no tails, aircraft moving faster and higher than anything known - Have seen them a-plenty, but have never once thought BEMs

Re:Possible explanation

[JasterBobaMereel]

I hope they monitored all the UFO sightings, checked which ones could be explained by the USA's and allies own secret craft, and the know Soviet tests, then used the information to get some idea where else the Soviets were testing their experimental aircraft and to get some idea of the capabilities of the ones they really wanted to keep secret ...

 

Re:Possible explanation

[Coren22]

UFO = Unidentified Flying Object, which the steaths and SR-71 would qualify as if the people didn't know what they were (were working on the program). No conspiracy theory, or denial needed.

Re:Tin foil hats

[Tablizer]

But now my foil hat is an EM drive

Re:Tin foil hats

[PopeRatzo]

Time to put on your tin foil hats boys and girls!

I wear a tinfoil condom, because that's where my wife said my brains are located.

Reality....

[beheaderaswp]

Considering there's more FBI UFO material floating around from FOIA requests than that for COINTELPRO, I have a hard time believing that all this stuff amounts to nothing.

However, what that "something" actually is... could be anything from "Greys being real" to "old vacuum cleaner bags spew dust".

Smart people know something is up. People who do not know the limits of their own intellect build folklore as fact.

Re:Reality....

[Bryan Ischo]

I can't quite figure out what you're saying. Is the "something" that is "up" some kind of covered-up evidence of the supernatural and/or UFOs or other science fiction? Or is the "something" that is "up" some kind of government conspiracy to mislead people into ???I'm not sure what??? believing in UFOs via weirdly timed stories?

I genuinely don't understand what you are trying to say.

Re:Reality....

[gtall]

Okay, there are aliens. Now what?

Re:Reality....

[SuricouRaven]

The best conspiracy theories have some truth in them.

Take Roswell, for example. A mysterious craft crash-lands in a small town. Locals find it, and many people witness the wreck. It's made of strange materials, so light they almost float on air, and elaborate machines like nothing ever seen with parts far beyond any technology they were familiar with. Before news spreads far, men from the government turn up with big guns - they load the wreck into a truck and take it away, never to be seen again. The witnesses are told never to speak of what they saw, threats of jail are made should they do so, and the local media are ordered to report it only as a crashed weather balloon.

All that is true. You can see where the conspiracy theory started: There really was a genuine conspiracy and cover-up. The only thing popular culture got wrong was the reason behind the conspiracy: It wasn't an alien craft, but a high-altitude military balloon used for long-distance detection of Soviet nuclear tests. Super-advanced (for the 40s) military technology, but not alien.

Area 51 is another good case. Secret base, top-secret-classified to the point the government barely even acknowledges it exists, lots of heavily armed men guarding it (mostly again UFO-hunters trying to sneak in), good fodder for a conspiracy theory because there is a genuine conspiracy. It even has stories of strange and alien-seeming craft seen in the area, including a few flying saucers - and stories of the military trying to silence the witnesses with threats of imprisonment. But again, the conspiracy isn't really aliens: Area 51 is an experimental aircraft testing and development site.

There's also a separate and rather too-plausible conspiracy theory that Area 51 has been seriously violating environmental law by burning all sorts of toxic substances in open-air fires rather then go through proper disposal methods, and in doing so caused damage to the health of contractors at the base, then hiding behind top-secret classification in order to block any attempts at investigation or legal action against the government. The lawsuit was abandoned due to lack of evidence, because all records of the alleged incident are classified and so could not be used in court.

Re:Reality....

[dbIII]

Considering the FBI still believes in and uses "lie detectors" invented by the guy who wrote "Wonder Woman" ( I am not shitting you, look it up) I wouldn't read too much into the FBI taking this stuff seriously.

Smart people know something is up

That's how they want you to think of them, especially around budget time. Being scammed by a comic book writer for decades points to them being something other than that.

Re:Reality....

[dbIII]

There really were aliens at sites like that and government of the time preferred it if the public did not know of them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

In the 1940s and 1950s the public were not especially fond of ex-Nazis who had worked slaves to death.

Carl Sagan

[Anonymous Coward]

Carl Sagan wrote (I think in Demon Haunted World) that as a government consultant and having top secret clearance that he never saw anything that led him to believe that the government was hiding anything to do with UFOs.

So, the FBI is most likely telling truth in this instance.

Besides, proof of aliens would be the best distraction issue ever - "ignore us trampling over your rights! There are ALIENS!"

Re:Carl Sagan

[HornWumpus]

UFOs are often convenient cover for secret flight tests.

That gives the government an incentive to encourage UFO nuts. There are a few documented cases of UFO nuts being worked for years.

The types of Aliens people encounter varies around the globe (S. America, Africa; Eaters, giant jaws, football heads, Europe, N. America; Anal prober greys, Asia; another pattern which escapes me). So either most are culturally acquired or the earth is subdivided by continent/alien species.

Re:Carl Sagan

[Lord Kano]

Having Top Secret Clearance is not the same as having a need to know for compartmentalized information.

Moreover, he could just have been lying.

LK

Re:Carl Sagan

[TheRaven64]

Carl Sagan wrote (I think in Demon Haunted World) that as a government consultant and having top secret clearance that he never saw anything that led him to believe that the government was hiding anything to do with UFOs.

Even if his clearance would have been adequate to see such evidence (top secret clearance doesn't mean that you can see everything that's classified top secret, it just means that you can see anything for which you can demonstrate a need to know), having the clearance would have prevented him from talking about it. Edward Snowden is a far more compelling argument: given that the FBI is far less secretive than the NSA, do you really think that they'd have managed to keep it a secret without someone walking out with disks full of evidence and dumping them in the public? UFO conspiracy theories that depend on FBI competence never seem credible.

Re:Brilliant Timing

[Sperbels]

the evil scary Russians are haxxoring the election

I don't see why this wouldn't be considered a possibility. The CIA has engineered the leadership nations all over the world to make sure they maintain subservient to US interests. Why wouldn't Russia attempt to gain a favorable outcome from a system which is demonstrably vulnerable to tampering?

UFOs debunked

[woboyle]

In the 1960's my father, a well-known and respected physicist, led a government sponsored group of scientists to investigate these reports and sightings. They had top-secret access to all of this information. After a year they concluded that it was all bogus, and all of it had perfectly plebeian explanations.

Re:UFOs debunked

[drinkypoo]

In the 1960's my father, a well-known and respected physicist, led a government sponsored group of scientists to investigate these reports and sightings. They had top-secret access to all of this information. After a year they concluded that it was all bogus, and all of it had perfectly plebeian explanations.

Project Blue Book ran from 1951-1970. You don't even have the time period right.

Aliens worked with Russia to hack elections

[eatvegetables]

Damn aliens.

Huh?

[93 Escort Wagon]

"Ironically, Crisman was later linked to one of the CIA's anti-Castro groups, connecting him another popular topic for conspiracy theorists: the assassination of President Kennedy."

Okay, I'll bite. How is this ironic in any way, shape, or form?

Re:Carl SaganUFOs are often convenient cover for s

[Ungrounded Lightning]

UFOs are often convenient cover for secret flight tests.

Wasn't there a not too long ago release of government info-or-whatever about the Roswell incident?

Story was that one of the things they were testing there was the reentry mechanism for the upcoming (and still very cold-war-secret-military-tech) mercury launches, by lifting various model reentry vehicles to the edge of the atmosphere using weather balloons and dropping them . Not all that good a model of the heating, but a great way to check whether it would end up flying heat-shield-first until it was at low-atmosphere terminal velocity and time for the 'chutes.

Video showed a mercury capsule heat-shield, with retro-pack still attached, upside-down on sawhorses-or-the-like in a hanger. Looked very much like the canonical flying-saucer artwork of the era, and the picture was given as an explanation for the story of a passerby seeing what looked like a flying saucer in a hanger.

"Second Covers"

[Ungrounded Lightning]

UFOs are often convenient cover for secret Re:Carl Saganflight tests.

That gives the government an incentive to encourage UFO nuts.

A lot of the cold-war-era "conspiracy theories" sound like "second cover" stories. That's a psychological technique for diverting investigation into some large-enough-to-be-worth-the-effort secret project. Works like this:

Plant TWO cover stories. The first is plausible but misdirection. The second is fruitcake-nuts (but ideally has aspects that look attractively like actual artifacts of the project being hidden). Somebody investigating what is going on first hits the first cover. If he accepts it, fine. If he notices it doesn't quite fit and digs deeper, he finds the obviously screwy second cover. Oops? Now what?

The tendency of the more rational is to reject it - but bounce back to the first cover and give up there. The less well-hinged may report the second cover (much to the glee of the security people). Few are going to keep digging past both to discover some approximation of what's really going on - and if they DO get there and talk about it in public, if they happen to have said anything related to the second cover story (or even if the HAVEN'T), they can be debunked by painting them as having accepted the self-evidently tinfoil-hat-grade second cover story and propagating a variant of it.

The "conspiracy theories are always wrong and insane" meme is very convenient for this as well (as it is for any actual conspirators B-) )

Re:"Second Covers"

[Kjella]

Nobody should jump on a far out theory unless there's some substantial evidence to support it and that's where conspiracy theorists jump off the deep end. For example compare "pizzagate" with the catholic church's abuse of alter boys, the claims are quite comparable. But when you look at the actual evidence to support the allegations you quickly see the difference between a 4chan circle jerk and a real conspiracy. Conspiracy theories always go in circles between the same crackpot sites confirming each other backed up by YouTube "documentaries".

Conspiracy theories

[Kim_Essentials]

Oh boy oh boy, what an embarrassment! But you know what this could be the government secret strategy to drive UFO-nuts insane.

Re:Expect to see more of this garbage...

[ConaxConax]

Declassifying UFO information was actually one of Hillary Clinton's campaign policies.
https://www.theguardian.com/us...

Re:Expect to see more of this garbage...

[ebvwfbw]

Bill tried to do that when he was POTUS. I don't understand why she would think she would be any more successful. My theory - it was yet another of her lies. She lies so much she didn't even seem to know what the real truth is. Such as the sniper fire claim... and so on and so on.

Re:Tin foil hats

[RockDoctor]

You need a new hearing aid. She said "brain", singular. Shortly before she sucked it out and swallowed. You've felt different since then? Now you know why.

Re:Expect to see more of this garbage...

[Phoghat]

he isn't yet, didn't you get the memo?