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Why China Can't Lure Tech Talent (bloomberg.com)

Posted by msmash on from the explain-like-I-am-5 dept.

China may have been hoping to attract tech talent to its nation, but it is unlikely that people in the tech industry will move there. A columnist at Bloomberg explains why: The biggest problem is government control of the internet. For a software developer, the inconvenience goes well beyond not being able to access YouTube during coffee breaks. It means that key software libraries and tools are often inaccessible. In 2013, China blocked Github, a globally important open-source depository and collaboration tool, thereby forcing developers to seek workarounds. Using a virtual private network to "tunnel" through the blockades is one popular option. But VPNs slow uploads, downloads and collaboration. And it isn't just developers who suffer. Among the restricted sites in China is Google Scholar, a tool that indexes online peer-reviewed studies, conference proceedings, books and other research material into an easily accessible format. It's become a crucial database for academics around the world, and Chinese researchers -- even those with VPNs -- struggle to use it. The situation grew so dire this summer that several state-run news outlets published complaints from Chinese scientists, with one practically begging the nationalist Global Times newspaper: "We hope the government can relax supervision for academic purposes." The cumulative impact of these restrictions is significant. Scientists unable to keep up with what researchers in other countries are publishing are destined to be left behind, which is one reason China is having difficulty luring foreign scholars to its universities. Programmers who can't take advantage of the sites and tools that make development a global effort are destined to write software customized solely for the Chinese market. The author has raised several other reasons to make his case.

47 of 219 comments (clear)

  1. How strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I would never have thought that people with good educations and job prospects wouldn't want to move to a country with totalitarian control of your daily life. Next you're going to tell me North Korea has similar problems.

    1. Re:How strange by irrational_design · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What about my freedom to be free of your secondhand smoke?

    2. Re:How strange by golgotha007 · · Score: 2

      >> For example, nobody gives a shit where you smoke, and hardly any concern about how you drive, where you park, etc.

      where you spit, where you piss, etc. no thanks.

    3. Re:How strange by OakDragon · · Score: 4, Funny

      I've lost count of the number of states that have banned smoking

      I'm thinking no more than 50.

      --
      Dark Reflection
    4. Re:How strange by Malc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've lived in Shanghai and the most eye opening part about it is was how spectacularly wrong my American colleagues were about China. Before I left to live there, I was told how Communist it was, how dangerous it was, how there was no freedom. What I found was a country that is way more capitalist than the US and people pretty much leading the life they wanted. There are so many things that squash your freedom in the West but you don't notice it because you've known no better,

    5. Re:How strange by mjwx · · Score: 2

      I've lived in Shanghai and the most eye opening part about it is was how spectacularly wrong my American colleagues were about China. Before I left to live there, I was told how Communist it was, how dangerous it was, how there was no freedom. What I found was a country that is way more capitalist than the US and people pretty much leading the life they wanted. There are so many things that squash your freedom in the West but you don't notice it because you've known no better,

      Whilst I agree that Americans tend to swallow a lot of propaganda about China that is horribly incorrect (yep, China is communist in name only and provided you don't rock the boat you can get away with a lot), Shanghai and Hong Kong are oddities amongst China because of the high levels of foreign activities in these cities, even after the PLA took Shanghai in 1947, Beijing never really controlled it and still don't to a large degree. Beijing are content to leave Shanghai to it's own devices as long as they don't cause problems. That being said, even in other provinces and Beijing itself, you wont find yourself bothered by the government much... Doubly so as a foreigner. The rule of thumb is not to cause trouble, If you make trouble for the government (or anyone in power really) then of course they're going to deal with you.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    6. Re:How strange by cthulhu11 · · Score: 2

      This is a country where science is repeatedly faked, and where Qigong practitioners are imprisoned and harvested for organs. I've talked to people in the US who have worked for Chinese companies: - Amazon-scale expectation of uncompensated overtime - Yelling and threatening is routine and accepted - Travel expenses are not reimbursed - Ridicule of religious, spiritual, and ethical practices is tolerated and encouraged. In short, it's almost as though Trump runs them. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the above has been the consistent narrative I've heard. I've also personally experienced 3 out of 4 above from a manager from the PRC at a US company. When I didn't even report to him.

  2. Also, the pollution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    I went to Beijing and it was pollution hell. Couldn't see further than 50 feet in front of you somedays.

    1. Re:Also, the pollution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But... the Chinese Government has much more control than the EPA could dream...

      Maybe less meddling by the government is what is actually the good thing; after all, "private" property owners want their property kept in good condition.

    2. Re:Also, the pollution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      I hope you do not actual write Software with that logic.

      Having Control and using it to control pollution are not the same. They would rater make money then have Clean air. Just like Americain Companies did before the EPA.

      You logic is the less Government control the cleaner the Air? History Disagrees.

    3. Re:Also, the pollution by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What you're missing is that the Party members and their cronies own/run the coal mines and coal plants, too. It's not a communist system anymore, per se, but more of a state-owned enterprise that isn't even really socialism so much as it is "State Capitalism" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... ). They could shut it off or switch, but the party and its cronies are making money off the current power plants, and don't want to switch.

      So imagine what would happen if the coal mines and coal plants were owned/run by the same people who were best buddies with, and members of the same party as, the people who run the government. The government may well have the power to shut down those coal plants overnight, but it doesn't matter a damn if they're not going to use it.

    4. Re:Also, the pollution by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And what did "private" society do to clean up the environment? Mobilized to force politicians to enact laws and regulations, that's what, because that's what works most efficiently. Government leads the parade because we put it there, because nobody else has the power to do what we need it to do. If we created some other entity with that ability, it would just be 'government' by a different name.

      The EPA could certainly be run better. It could certainly do a better job. I've yet to hear real suggestions about that, as opposed to knee-jerk "Government bad, private sector free market good" drivel. The private sector would murder babies if it increased profits and nobody stopped them, because that's how capitalism works if left unchecked. Capitalism can do very good things, but like nuclear energy, if you don't control it, it makes a huge frakking mess. Don't believe me? Go read up on Slavery. (No, Slavery wasn't about race at first - it was about money. The racist stuff was what people invented to help themselves feel less terrible about the terrible things they were doing to other humans).

      Clearly the problem is that we need to do a better job of controlling our government - but I think the problem is less that the agencies run amuck, so much as some of the people we're sending to Washington who have no interest in seeing the government be run well. We elect people that say "Government is Terrible", and then we're surprised when they give us terrible government?

    5. Re:Also, the pollution by jbengt · · Score: 2

      . . . and the motivation to clean up the environment started within "private" society, not "public" office.

      So, the people insisted that the government help clean up the environment, and the government "of the people and by the people" followed the people's lead and did just that, and that's evidence that it's all the government's fault?

    6. Re:Also, the pollution by stabiesoft · · Score: 2

      You mean like trump making the exxon guy sec of state? Welcome to the new USA or as I like to call it now BRA, Banana Republic of America. And the mnemonic so fits our tic-tac prez elect.

    7. Re:Also, the pollution by emaname · · Score: 2

      The statement re "private" society mobilizing to create change is still valid.

      The fact that a very few CEOs might actually respond to public concern does happen. McDonald's is one example. Another is Johnson's Wax. The then CEO Sam Johnson was aware of the damage to the ozone caused by chlorofluorocarbons. He instituted a complete change in all their aerosol products and thus was compliant before it ever became law. Sam and, more recently, his son also instituted alternative energy strategies that have resulted in one of their plants going almost entirely off-grid.

      So, yes, "some" CEOs have a moral character. They actually understand the business value of being environmentally responsible. But they are the exception, not the rule. Typically the onus of being environmentally responsible falls to the public.

      --
      An effective "democracy" creates the illusion the people have a say in their government.
  3. Are they trying to? by ugen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I am not sure they are really trying too hard in the first place. I speak Mandarin (have been studying for many years), have a good resume and appropriate technical background, and spent substantial time in China to have a general idea of how things are - yet I have never been able to attract interest of any Chinese company. Given what I know about their local tech workforce, that's not at all surprising. They have excellent pool of well qualified candidates.

    That's not to say that article does not bring good points - internet use in China is encumbered and painful. But that's has little to do with "attracting tech talent".

    1. Re:Are they trying to? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I am not sure they are really trying too hard in the first place. I speak Mandarin (have been studying for many years), have a good resume and appropriate technical background, and spent substantial time in China to have a general idea of how things are - yet I have never been able to attract interest of any Chinese company.

      I am in a situation very similar to you and have been actually interviewing to some Chinese companies and also know people working in those. I am very confident that China is actually trying to lure tech talent from abroad, but they prefer people who have worked in big companies and do not speak Chinese. The reason for the first is that they are very interested in the information they can get from their competitors and use for their advantage, and the reason for the second is that their own company internal information is all in Chinese and they don't want these same employees to leak that to their foreign competitors.

      So to put it short, they want to leech information out of their competition by hiring their ex-workers in any ways possible, but at the same time make sure that they are not leaking out anything. And the fact that you speak Mandarin and understand the Chinese culture to some extent makes you a unattractive candidate. It's much safer to hire Chinese candidates for the basic jobs and hire foreigners (who speak no Chinese) to the positions where they have serious need to catch up.

      I would love to find out I'm just making this all up as a big conspiracy theory, but I have a bit too much stories and examples to support my assertion...

    2. Re:Are they trying to? by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 2

      I am not sure they are really trying too hard in the first place. I speak Mandarin (have been studying for many years), have a good resume and appropriate technical background, and spent substantial time in China to have a general idea of how things are - yet I have never been able to attract interest of any Chinese company. Given what I know about their local tech workforce, that's not at all surprising. They have excellent pool of well qualified candidates.

      I've been to China too and I've seen ads placed in English in major foreign newspapers that seem willing to theoretically hire foreigners, but a problem with almost all of these is that they have additional requirements that almost impossible for a foreigner to meet. For example, you can't just speak Mandarin and English but you have to also be fluent or really close to it in Cantonese or Shanghaiese. If a foreigner really knew all those languages they might really have a chance to be hired, but you can probably count on one or two hands how many non-ethnically Chinese foreigners can speak Mandarin plus Cantonese or Shanghaiese. Heck, you basically can't even learn Shanghaiese outside of China if you even want to. Try to find books on it if you're curious. There are at least Cantonese learning materials in the English speaking world but not as many as for Mandarin.

    3. Re:Are they trying to? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They said tech "talent".

      http://www.npr.org/sections/th...
      From the linked article:

      And it turns out that the job done in China was above par - the employee's "code was clean, well written, and submitted in a timely fashion. Quarter after quarter, his performance review noted him as the best developer in the building," according to the Verizon Security Blog.

      All told, it looked like he earned several hundred thousand dollars a year, and only had to pay the Chinese consulting firm about fifty grand annually," according to the Security Blog.

      Maybe they're not the best of the best, but neither are most slashdotters or coder either. These bunch are probably better and cheaper than most of you here.

    4. Re:Are they trying to? by slew · · Score: 2

      The requirement for Shanghainese or Cantonese for some jobs in China is similar to the requirement for knowing Spanish in the USA. For some jobs, you will never know what is *really* going on if you don't know the language people curse at each other in and you will be completely ineffective.

      For front-office jobs that are populated by token "whites", generally knowing a little Mandarin (Putonghua) is enough. They don't really want you to know too much about what is really going on anyways...

    5. Re:Are they trying to? by pablo_max · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Same here. I have a strong telecom background. Lived in Shanghai with my wife for 3 year. Looked for a job for the 7 months. Nothing.
      I ended up teaching English at a private school and private lessons. I made 3 times what doing that as what I was paid as an engineer in the states.
      There was some downsides, to be sure.
      1. Stalkers. Seriously, some of those girls were certifiable. Never imagined I would have to deal with that.
      2. The environment is dirty. You walk down the street and it looks nice and tidy. Looks past the bushes and you can see where all the garbage went.
      3. The air is pretty dirty. I would run every day and I would be blowing black out of my nose the entire day.
      4. The crowds are not for everyone. Seriously, it is crowed on the metro. And loads of the people do not know about deodorant.
      5. Naked capitalism. People in the US like to think that they live in a capitalist society. Bullshit. You don't. China, is the most capitalist place I have ever been. If you were on fire, someone come over and try to sell you a bucket of water. They would never through it on you though. You would need to pay someone else to do that. It is pure capitalism without regard for anything else. That is the reason their environment is so F'ed up.

      Having said that, I enjoyed living in China. I do not think I could ever live there again purely from the health point of view. But, by and large the people treated me well and I had a lot of fun. For now, I think I will stick to Germany.

  4. Also, the native language sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Tone-based languages are a terrible idea; now, add to that a logographic writing system, and you've got a real cluster fuck!

    The Information Age has no time for such nonsense.

    1. Re:Also, the native language sucks by Mal-2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Tonal languages are not, in and of themselves, an inherently bad idea. It's just one more parameter which can be used to add information density without having to rush the actual mechanics of the speaker. The fact that some people are tone-deaf may pose a problem, just like the fact that some people are color-blind makes color coding a troublesome way to transmit critical information.

      The character set used is not necessarily tied to this – it would be perfectly workable to retain the character set but speak a non-tonal language, and it is perfectly workable to write a tonal language in a phonetic alphabet. It just takes a lot of diacritical marks. If keeping the density high is an important goal, Hangul retains that feature while using a phonetic system by forming the characters into blocks representing syllables.

      The most telling argument against change is that with the vast majority able to read and write, it would take a very large investment to change the writing system. Hangul did it in an era where most people couldn't read – the investment was correspondingly smaller, and it was the right move at the right time. Another argument is that even as languages drift or even have completely different origins, the writing system remains comprehensible to all users Such is not necessarily the case with phonetic languages – given enough time, what's written and what's spoken will diverge even if the spelling made perfect sense at the time it was codified. So maybe the thought process is:

      1. It will take a lot of time and money.
      2. It will break the means of communication between the multiple languages spoken in the country.
      3. It will only provide temporary benefits.
      4. The status quo puts up a significant barrier to foreign meddling.

      Don't underestimate the power of the fourth one.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    2. Re: Also, the native language sucks by Miamicanes · · Score: 2

      China's dialects and writing systems work quite well. They're just optimized in slightly different ways than English.

      English has lots of what computer scientists would call "forward error correction" -- you can really, REALLY fuck up and mangle English, yet still be understood. In contrast, you could say that Chinese has built-in spatial & temporal data compression... at the expense of error-tolerance.

      For an understanding of how tones work, think about all the different meanings the word "fuck" can have depending on how your pitch changes. Chinese tones are just a systematic way of describing those pitch changes.

      Likewise, Chinese is notoriously hard to *write*, but can actually be slightly easier to *read* than English (at least, if you're comparing difficulty for semi-illiterate native speakers).

      IMHO, 100-500 years from now, English will be the planet's dominant language, but it will probably have imported a few hundred one- and two-character words from Chinese (with 'man', 'woman', 'year', 'month', and 'day' being among the first ones) and use them the exact same way Japanese uses kanji -- as an alternate, more compact way to write common words that could be legitimately written using an alphabet.

      The truth is, you can learn to read and write more than 100 Chinese words in just a few hours. Once you know how to write 'one' through "seven", you only need to learn the character for 'day' to name the days of the week. Learn "eight" through "12" plus the character for "month", and you can name the months in a year. You can even cheat & use arabic digits, effectively learning to name 19 days+months with just two learned characters. Contrast that with the mess we have with English day & month names. In some ways, Chinese has elements of logical order that English lacks.

      TL/DR: The Chinese language works perfectly well for people in China.

    3. Re:Also, the native language sucks by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 2

      You've confused familiarity and preference with fact.
      What's a "useful language"? Was there some committee where that was decided? If you grew up where tone was a part of the meaning, you'd have no problems. Just because you lack to capacity to imagine someone with that ability doesn't make it not useful.
      Who said "Western Music" is endlessly better? What is Western Music? Does Bjork count as Western Music? A lot of Westerners hates her music. Is Blues and Jazz Western Music, even though they come from black slaves, and often derided by the "elite" classes?

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
  5. No green cards, No ownership by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I lived in China for a year. I loved it. I love the culture, I love the country side. Even the pollution can be handled with a decent apartment with good window seals and air scrubbers. They people are fine (let's face it, all countries have great people and terrible people). But, the reason I, as a software engineer, won't go back: no green cards and you can't own property or start a business. Maybe when your 25 years old, the lack of unfettered internet is the worst thing you can think of. But, as you get older, you become more risk adverse. Why would I invest a life in a country where I cannot be granted permanent residence, even if I marry a citizen? I wouldn't; that's foolish.

    1. Re: No green cards, No ownership by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      Try to think logically.

      Well, if nothing else, you win today's internet award for unnecessarily smug douchiness.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  6. Do they need to? by ilsaloving · · Score: 2, Funny

    I mean, this is China. They just copy the talent they already have. :)

    *ducks and runs*

  7. Is stackoverflow blocked? by FictionPimp · · Score: 4, Funny

    As long as stackoverflow isn't blocked I can still get everyone else to write my code, so I'm good!

  8. You will always be a foreigner by GuB-42 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    From what I heard it is impossible to be treated like one of them if you don't look Chinese, even if you speak perfect Mandarin, socialize and marry a local, etc...
    Permanent visas, let alone citizenship, are extremely difficult to get and some places don't accept foreigners.
    I suppose this gets on your nerves after some time.

    1. Re: You will always be a foreigner by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 2

      That's true for every single country on the planet except America. You can live in France for 40 years, does that make you a Frenchman? If you live in Iran for 40 years, do you become Persian? And yet you live in Somalia your entire life, come to America and immediately granted refugee citizenship, bam you're American and anyone who says otherwise is a xenophobic racist America First asshole.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    2. Re: You will always be a foreigner by Higaran · · Score: 4, Informative

      That has always amazed me about other countries, I was born in Poland, but have grown up in the US from a very young age. When ever I go back to Poland, I only get treated by people I know closely like a local, but I consider myself an american. When every I go anywhere touristy I most people speak english to me before I've ever said a word. In the US after a few years you can become a citizen, in many other countries it takes generations, in the US everyone comes from somewhere else originally so it doesn't matter where you were from as long as you want to be and are a citizen now, I guess.

    3. Re:You will always be a foreigner by the+gnat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Veering slightly off-topic here, but in addition to what you said, the limitations on internal migration (for Chinese citizens) are absolutely insane by Western standards. Imagine that you couldn't attend school or obtain a driver's license or even legally reside in California despite being born there because your parents were "registered" as Illinois residents and moved without permission. As someone who rarely has to deal with any government agency more oppressive than the local DMV office, I can't imagine living in a country with that level of control over my life, even if they were handing out citizenship papers freely.

    4. Re:You will always be a foreigner by TheSync · · Score: 3, Informative

      Indeed, China has 1,448 naturalised Chinese in total. Almost no foreigners are able to become citizens.

      Even Japan, better known for hostility to immigration, naturalises around 10,000 new citizens each year; in America the figure is some 700,000.

    5. Re: You will always be a foreigner by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      Getting the green card can reasonably take another two years for marriage, employment, etc;

      Depending on current nationality. I think that they are currently processing green card applications from about 2005 for Indian nationals.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  9. Dixie cups by tomhath · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I suspect the people being recruited are concerned that the goal is to transfer the expertise they have to Chinese engineers/scientists. Once that transfer is done the foreigner will no longer have any value.

    1. Re: Dixie cups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The Asian countries take racism to a different level even though they are all basically from the same racial group. The Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean (both north and south varieties), and all the other Asian racial sub-groups all hate each other. The sheer nuance of their racism is dumb founding when you consider skin color is not the primary means of identifying the various groups. And it would be one thing if you could blame the animosity totally on nationalism but their animosity for one another started centuries ago when most of the south east Asian nations didn't even exist.

      If the Chinese have problems with their government it is up to them to do something about it. China's central government is more afraid of it's citizens than the citizens are afraid of the government. China's leadership know they are balancing their power on the edge of a knife. The more prosperous the citizens become the more dangerous the general population becomes and the Chinese government economic policies cannot be turned back to keep the peasants hungry, barefoot, and down trodden which was Mao's legacy.

      And I have been lucky enough to travel around the world extensively as an American and I found the Chinese people to be the most welcoming and friendly. Although it could be that the Europeans I encountered in my travels were such total pricks across the board that they make the Chinese look like the open and socially accommodating country that the Europeans think they are. The US would be better off partnering up with China then putting up with the whiny Europeans whose last noteworthy contributions to the world was WW1 and WW2. China is probably one of the only countries on the planet that the US has never had a military conflict with. While the Japanese were rampaging across China in WW2 the US, who at the time was not considered a world military power, sent an all volunteer fighter squadron to harass the Japanese. It was a small contribution that didn't really make a military difference but the Chinese remember and even built a small war time museum honoring those US flight crews. They even had a display mentioning the US airmen who landed in China after the Dolittle raid. There would have most likely been no survivors of that raid if the airmen had not been helped by the Chinese living in the area at the time. Despite the press about tensions between the US and China over a few tiny islands, all of which could be destroyed with just a few cruise missiles, the two navies have held war games, conducted training for joint military humanitarian operations, and allowed Chinese sailors to come aboard US carriers to observe carrier operations they can use to train their sailors manning their carrier.

      The Chinese spy on the US and the US returns the favor because that is SOP for every country of note around the world. France and the Israelis conduct more espionage operations against the US than China does but there is no talk of the US gearing up to take action against those two countries. The US has treaties with China's neighbors that all but demand the US say certain things when those treaty partners feel threatened by anything China does. China knows this and they also no what the limits are. The last thing China would ever want is to get in a military conflict with the US. They have made great strides in modernizing their armed forces but they are still no where close to being able to go toe to toe with the US Navy especially when you include the Japanese and SK military forces surrounding China.

    2. Re: Dixie cups by ninthbit · · Score: 2

      I don't think China is a scared of the US as you think. They could crash our economy and throw us into turmoil in a second. Then, if military action is involved, they have so much established manufacturing and natural resources, they could ramp up like we did in WWII but faster and better. Not to mention, with Russia and N Korea just around the corner, they could easily establish partnerships that put the US at a lot of risk.

      To make matter worse, they have a huge population they can toss into a meat grinder of a conflict, while the US public will quickly turn against military action with groups like Mothers of America crying out about their kids being killed to protect the rich 1%'s interests.

      Then they're is Trump... that guy is just begging for an excuse to toss a nuke. His ego dictates that he have the gloating rights to say he was the first world leader since WWII to have the ball to toss one. If that kleptocrat doesn't partner with China to rob us blind, he'll start a war with them "to make Merica great again"

      China has nothing to fear, they own our debt and we've already outsourced all our manufacturing to them. They more a threat to us, then we are to them. I suspect they know this and are just smarter then previous governments. They know they don't' need to beat us in a military fight. They can just slowly buy the nation buy assuming all the debt and undermining the economy. Once it collapses, they call the debt and own America.

  10. If I had one wish this holiday season... by Pseudonymous+Powers · · Score: 2

    1. People don't like to move.
    2. People especially don't like to move someplace far away.
    3. People especially especially don't like to move someplace far away in another country.
    4. People especially especially especially don't like to move someplace far away in another country where they don't speak the language and they have a completely different cuisine and culture.
    5. People especially especially especially especially don't like to move someplace far away in another country where they don't speak the language and they have a completely different cuisine and culture.and where you have to live in a tiny apartment in an overcrowded city with really bad air pollution.

    To me, that seems like that should be enough reasons. But okay, sure:

    6. People especially especially especially especially especially don't like to move someplace far away in another country where they don't speak the language and they have a completely different cuisine and culture.and where you have to live in a tiny apartment in an overcrowded city with really bad air pollution AND the government won't let you go to all the internet sites you might want to.

    1. Re:If I had one wish this holiday season... by Pseudonymous+Powers · · Score: 2

      That explains why the US and Canada are overflowing with Chinese, Japanese, East Indians, and many other cultures. Because people don't like to move. Fucking moron.

      Cool, so you can help me move this weekend?

  11. Because living in China is a nightmare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    No sane person would subject him- or herself to living under an authoritarian regime with little freedom of speech, which is horribly overcrowded, and where breathing the air can literally kill you, where the food is generally horrendous, where grown adults spit all over the place, and where children have slits cut into the crotches of their pants so they can piss and shit in the street. (And no, I am not kidding about that last one. Look it up.)

    I spent six weeks backpacking China in 2006 and it was an absolute nightmare. I imagine it's worse now that the pollution is truly out of control.

    Hong Kong is good. Taiwan is good. Mainland China is a nightmare. (Shanghai is not the worst place on earth either. But that's only because the rest of China *is* the worst place on earth.)

  12. in US too by Frederic54 · · Score: 2

    I worked for a US company, as a software developper, that decided to block all the "shareware" "freeware" open source" and al websites, so we had no access to github, stack overflow, forums or anything interesting for developpers. We had to fight HR (it seems HR head had the decision to unblock site, try to explain what open source is...) to access them. It was a true nightmare, they were control freak of the web. The number of times you did a search, click on the answer you were looking for and bam! blocked! We had bypass using different DNS or 3G on our phone, etc.

    --
    "Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
  13. What FREEDOM means by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Daily life in China is freer than in the USA only because the government in China lacks the resources to apply its oppression more pervasively; freedom is the ability of the common man to evade or resist imposition.

  14. Wrong asumptions by franzrogar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Quote: "The biggest problem is government control of the internet."

    WRONG! (properly capitalized)

    The biggest problem is that China is a country with a dictatorship and that shit in Human Rights.

    (Real) example: I'm gay. If I go there to work I'm not allowed to live (if I go to the street and kiss my couple, or even f**k at home, both get killed and the Government send the bullets bill to our families).

  15. Your Mileage May Vary by Shoten · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There are, as described above, many reasons...but I think the "main" reason for any particular person will depend upon the person.

    I was once contacted by Huawei about becoming an executive at their organization, in Beijing. Now..this is curious to me since I neither speak Mandarin nor Cantonese. I find it hard to imagine that I would make a very effective VP in a technical role, without even a basic conversational grasp of their language. (And don't even think about reading...)

    However, interestingly enough, I also have a background in doing cyber security for the military in which role I got access to quite a lot of things. So...yeah. NO WAY was I going to entertain the job offer, for even a millisecond.

    But you know what? Even without that creepiness, I wouldn't have considered it because of the air pollution. I can't imagine exercising outdoors in a place where the air is so filthy you can taste it. Hell no.

    For some people, a reason not to go would be the culture shock...but for me, that's actually a plus. Or maybe the food? Nope...I love exploring new cuisines, and have always been fantastically happy getting authentic local food in any country I've visited. The crowding? Uh uh...I'm a hardcore urbanite. But for some others, these would be downsides instead of upsides...it all depends on the person.

    --

    For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
  16. Living there is a mixed bag by ukoda · · Score: 3, Informative

    I lived in China for 2 years and there is a lot to both like and hate.

    The good:
    - The people are generally nice, easy to get on with.
    - It is generally safe, I was never worried about where I went or when, within reason.
    - The food is good, once you learn the gotchas.
    - The electronics markets are the best in the world.

    The bad:
    - The Internet is truly horrible. I spent half my spare time curating VPNs to try and stay online. It is genuinely holding back China's tech sector. I was so glad when I returned home where the Internet just worked.
    - Bureaucracy is a pain, everything is way more complicated than it needs to be. It took me a full day to change the ownership of my car when I sold it and I mean a full day, not just a few hours. Back home this take less than 5 minutes.
    - Driving on China's roads is very stressful because of the lack of rule enforcement. I will never complain about drivers back home again.
    - Pollution can make you feel unwell, much like having a cold. This was only a problem in the big cities, in small cities it is low enough to not affect you directly.

    It has been a couple of years now since I lived there and from what I hear the Internet and pollution have both got worst since then.

    1. Re:Living there is a mixed bag by ukoda · · Score: 3, Informative

      Don't drink the local milk (it made me sick more than once), buy imported milk from the supermarkets that have imports, such as Metro. Be aware that frozen goods are not shipped in refrigerated trucks so have often thawed and refrozen, even with places like Metro. As a result ice cream was often found to be inedible. Bread, in the region I was in, is often sweetened and tastes terrible as a result, but normal bread can be found in speciality shops. Don't judge a restaurant by how fancy it looks, note which ones are popular with the locals. If dinning out with suppliers don't show interest in something you won't eat, they mistake you horror as desire and you will find it ordered for you. Likewise you will likely be offered the menu to make choices, it is a sign of respect but you only need to order a couple of things and leave the rest to them, just got for the safe choices you recognise and you can wing it for the rest of the meal.