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Uber Appeals Against Ruling that Its UK Drivers Are Workers (theguardian.com)

Uber has launched an appeal against a landmark employment tribunal ruling that its minicab drivers should be classed as workers with access to the minimum wage, sick pay and paid holidays. From a report on The Guardian: The taxi-app company filed papers with the appeal tribunal on Tuesday in an attempt to overturn the October judgment that, if it stands, could affect tens of thousands of workers in the gig economy. The move came as several dozen Uber drivers picketed City Hall on Wednesday holding placards demanding Transport for London, which licences Uber as a private hire operator in the capital, "end sweated labour now." It also mounted a protest at the City of London offices of Salesforce, a US computing company that is a major Uber client. Two Uber drivers, James Farrar and Yaseen Aslam, took Uber to court on behalf of a group 19 others who argued that they were employed by the San Francisco-based company, rather than working for themselves. Uber's business model has been based on treating drivers who log on to its app as self-employed contractors and taking a cut of their fares, which Uber dictates.

15 of 178 comments (clear)

  1. In Other News by sexconker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In other news, brat has tantrum.

    Film at 11.

    1. Re:In Other News by Knuckles · · Score: 3, Informative

      Here is the thing: just because someone says something you don't think is right, or you disagree with, THEY ARE NOT A TROLL. Please show me that the definition of a contractor is the ability to set your own rate, you troll!

      Let me google this for you: https://www.gov.uk/employment-...


      •        
      • they’re in business for themselves, are responsible for the success or failure of their business and can make a loss or a profit
               
      • they can decide what work they do and when, where or how to do it
               
      • they can hire someone else to do the work
             
      • they’re responsible for fixing any unsatisfactory work in their own time
               
      • their employer agrees a fixed price for their work - it doesn’t depend on how long the job takes to finish
               
      • they use their own money to buy business assets, cover running costs, and provide tools and equipment for their work
               
      • they can work for more than one client
      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    2. Re:In Other News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The best generic answer is, if you are needing to make a living, and your current job doesn't pay you enough, then use common sense and GET DIFFERENT JOB....

      That's excellent advice! I'll share it with my brother, who was laid off when his company moved their infrastructure to some managed cloud thing from Tata, and whose wife lost her job when her hospital outsourced its nursing staff. She put in an application with the contractor hoping to get her job back at about 3/4 of her previous pay, but no dice. I wonder why they didn't just get better paying jobs before they went through foreclosure, moved into a shitty apartment complex where several people have been murdered this year, and he started stocking shelves at Home Depot during the day and driving for Uber at night (leaving him zero time to learn a new skill set, mind you), while my sister-in-law with her ADN/RN waits tables at Outback Steakhouse?

      Such idiots they were for not just getting another job!

      My brother's gonna be thrilled when I pass along your "One Neat Trick to Financial Stability!" Who knew it could be so easy?

    3. Re: In Other News by Type44Q · · Score: 3, Informative

      With all due respect, we've read enough of your posts to know that if you're not a troll, you're a fucking moron. No offense meant; "just the facts, ma'am." ;)

    4. Re: In Other News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In short, for much the same reason that you can't decide to become a slave, even if you want to be. Minimum standards that prevent a race to the bottom need to be enforced for the benefit of society as a whole, not for the individual. Another way to look at it is that neoliberal sociopathy hasn't quite infected everything yet. The reasoning should be quite easy to follow, it's very frightening how many comments we see on here that don't seem to get it.

    5. Re:In Other News by serviscope_minor · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I just looked up this IR35 thing....a UK rule.

      Yep.

      I just don't get it...WHY are governments so fucking afraid to let people make up their own minds how they want to be employed, what jobs to take and HOW they are compensated for it?

      I've done a fair bit of contracting and I'm in favour if IR35.

      These laws don't come from nowhere. There's not a panel of MPs sitting round figuring how to screw you just for the hell of it (unless you're poor and the Tories are in power).

      Most of the "contracting" was just a tax dodge. If the money is paid to a company, that company can pay dividends (lower tax rate) and there's no national insurance (basically a form of income tax) for the employer to make their contribution too. Additionally, the money can be moved off without taxes since it's just regular business to business stuff.

      IOW it's a massive tax dodge most of the time.

      The other thing is that employees used to have far fewer rights. We know how it plays out and it turns out those rights are a good thing. And if you want that protection of a company it comes with responsibilities to your employees because the country works better that way. And ultimately since we have a welfare state willing to step in when the proverbial hits the fan so if companies go screwing over employees every other taxpayer ends up on the hook. So wanting to have regular employees but none of the responsibilities is yet more freeloading.

      And companies started doing that a lot. Not all, but enough that it became a problem. So the government passed a law that you can't skimp on obligations by playing word games. I think that's reasonable.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  2. How hard is it to understand? by TWX · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Specific working conditions define whether a worker is an employee or is a contractor, and the laws governing such are generally pretty straightforward. How Uber thinks it should be exempt from these rules doesn't make any sense.

    Of course they're operating an unlicensed taxi service in violation of passenger livery laws too, so I guess following the law is not something they're especially good at.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    1. Re:How hard is it to understand? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Specific working conditions define whether a worker is an employee or is a contractor, and the laws governing such are generally pretty straightforward.

      Sadly, in the UK the law in this area is anything but straightforward. This has been a controversial issue, the ambiguity has been a significant problem for genuine contractors, freelancers and sometimes small family businesses for a long time now, and the loss of tax revenue to disguised employees is a problem for the government as well.

      However, in this case, Uber seems to be on the wrong side of so many of the usual indicators that it's hard to see how it stands any chance at all of victory here unless some sort of dubious legal shenanigans are possible.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  3. Gig economy = social toxic waste dumping by sinij · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Gig economy is a social equivalent of dumping toxic waste into a river. Any company that operates like this deserves what they get.

  4. Re:Mixed Feelings by sinij · · Score: 3, Informative

    Just because traditional cabs are such vile and corrupt system, doesn't mean that Uber that replaces them with gig drivers is not a corrupt and vile system.

  5. There was a reason it was so cheap by alternative_right · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Taxi companies take on the burden of vetting, licensing, requiring education on street locations, and the like for their workers.

    To avoid flooding the market, they ensure that only a limited number of drivers are able to be licensed.

    They buy expensive insurance and work with law enforcement.

    Uber is succeeding not because it is disruptive, but because is new and therefore has not been battered by misfortunes over time into adopting a similar model.

    It is cheap because it passes all of these costs onto you, and onto its insurance companies, who have not yet figured out the full scope of the risk involved, mainly because they will make a tidy profit selling what should be expensive insurance cheaply because Uber is expanding.

    Those who have any brains at Uber intend to build up the business and sell out because they know their fortune cannot last.

  6. Re:Mixed Feelings by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 3, Informative

    There are already plenty of viable ways to work independently in the UK. Well over a million of us do so all the time, through freelancing, contract work, partnerships, and other arrangements. We knowingly and willingly make different trade-offs to employees in terms of protections, compensation, flexibility and other factors, and if you get it right, this can bring advantages to both the professional and their customer/client.

    However, what you're not allowed to do under UK law is put someone in a position where they're being treated like an independent in respects like employment rights and taxation, yet still required to give up the practical independence and flexibility that non-employees normally enjoy in return.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  7. Re:Fuck the "gig economy" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's the future - make everyone a contractor. you're only paid when you work. benefits? You're on your own.

    Days off? Sure, you don't get paid - AND someone else takes your (route, hours, work, etc...) and good luck getting it back when you come back from vacation, sick leave, etc ...

    Oh, and good luck being compensated for the business risk and expenses that companies are pushing on to the worker - er, I mean "contractor". No business, well you don't work and get paid - but we're still gonna pay you like you were an employee. Oh yeah, and it's up to you to keep up your tools and equipment, insurance and everything.

    They try to sell it like you're being an "entrepreneur" and "in business for yourself" and "calling your own shots" but the fact of the matter is that your tax status changed - nothing else.

    Uber and Lyft and the gig economy is for suckers. But it's gonna be forced on us because too many stupid people fall for it.

  8. Re:Mixed Feelings by dbIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

    On the other, this is a new business model that is still developing

    New? It's 19th century piece-work disguised by lies.

    "Ride Sharing?" As if the driver is going to drive to your destination whether you are in the car or not.

  9. Re: Please explain this to me by dbIII · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I don't understand what that means

    That's the problem with many of the commenters on this article. Acting as if everything that is not a 9-5 office job is contracting is somewhat naive.

    In the 1990s I was a contractor, which was fine, until I started getting more than 90% of my work from one client upon which I had tax hassles because I was then considered an employee. The people who only work for Uber would not be considered contractors in most of the world.