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Oracle Begins Aggressively Pursuing Java Licensing Fees (theregister.co.uk)

Posted by EditorDavid on from the run-everywhere dept.

Java SE is free, but Java SE Suite and various flavors of Java SE Advanced are not, and now Oracle "is massively ramping up audits of Java customers it claims are in breach of its licenses," reports the Register. Oracle bought Java with Sun Microsystems in 2010 but only now is its License Management Services division chasing down people for payment, we are told by people familiar with the matter. The database giant is understood to have hired 20 individuals globally this year, whose sole job is the pursuit of businesses in breach of their Java licenses... Huge sums of money are at stake, with customers on the hook for multiple tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Slashdot reader rsilvergun writes, "Oracle had previously sued Google for the use of Java in Android but had lost that case. While that case is being appealed, it remains to be seen if the latest push to monetize Java is a response to that loss or part of a broader strategy on Oracle's part." The Register interviewed the head of an independent license management service who says Oracle's even targeting its own partners now.

But after acquiring Sun in 2010, why did Oracle's License Management Services wait a full six years? "It is believed to have taken that long for LMS to devise audit methodologies and to build a detailed knowledge of customers' Java estates on which to proceed."

40 of 295 comments (clear)

  1. Oracle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Larry Ellison is the greediest man on earth and Oracle is his prophet.

    1. Re:Oracle by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Funny

      Larry Ellison is the greediest man on earth and Oracle is his prophet.

      Many believe that Larry is a Sith Lord. If he is indeed a Sith Master, then who is his apprentice?

    2. Re:Oracle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      From TFA:

      "Java SE Suite, for example, costs $300 per named user with a support bill of $66; there’s a per-processor option of $15,000 with a $3,300 support bill."

      It has long been a standard practice with Oracle that they won't even sell you any of their 'Enterprise' products unless you also pay them for 'support' (i.e., their products are shit and after you buy them you have pay extra if you want them to actually work)

      A while back, someone analyzed Oracle's financial reports and found that their licensing division, which also handles the support contracts, is responsible for nearly all of Oracle's profits.

      Larry must want to buy a new island.

    3. Re:Oracle by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

      Many believe that Larry is a Sith Lord. If he is indeed a Sith Master, then who is his apprentice?

      The clue is in the question.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:Oracle by Cmdln+Daco · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ellison isn't anything magical or mystical.

      It's a mistake to give what he is that kind of an aura.

    5. Re:Oracle by tomhath · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sun created Java because they wanted to boost hardware (SPARC systems) sales

      More specifically, Sun needed a way to pry Microsoft customers away from Visual C++, hence the "run anywhere" claim. To some extent Sun's strategy worked, but most of those former Microsoft users went to PC/Linux servers rather than Sun.

    6. Re:Oracle by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      Sun created Java because they wanted to boost hardware (SPARC systems) sales. So, Java was not technically free.

      If my local supermarket offers a free croissant to anyone who walks in the door, hoping that once they're there they'll buy something else, the croissant isn't technically free?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    7. Re:Oracle by rubycodez · · Score: 3, Insightful

      False. Java was originally created as embedding controller language originally for interactive television. When it was released in 1995 it was released as a platform independent language, not SPARC specific.

    8. Re: Oracle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I remember when I was working in a large bank that went thru a merger of equals many years back.

      The other bank is a Sybase shop with "enterprise" licensing based on total staff numbers.

      Within a week of the merger, Sybase came knocking claiming that the bank now owes them USD 50 million because total staff numbers have basically more than doubled due to the merger.

      To put that in perspective it was a few times larger than the then largest contract which was with Microsoft involving every windows desktop, laptop, windows server, office and other Microsoft stuff.

      The CIO was so pissed that he had to spend all his time negotiating a new contract for the first month of the merger instead of actually planning the technology integration.

      Naturally he ordered the bank to completely get rid of Sybase within 3 years. After 3 years, Sybase was almost completely gone except for a few trading systems that had major problems and risks moving.

      Interestingly most of the DBs was switched to Oracle.

      Anyway you screw with your customers enough, they will get rid of you. Even big banks which are dinosaurs when it comes to technology change will not be held ransom.

    9. Re:Oracle by grep+-v+'.*'+* · · Score: 4, Funny

      [isn't] the croissant technically free?

      Depends if the supermarket locks the door behind you after you enter. Yes, the croissant is free. YOU, however ....

      --
      If the universe is someone's simulation -- does that mean the stars are just stuck pixels?
  2. Oracle JAVA is not that much. by rholtzjr · · Score: 2

    Having worked with both Java from Sun and Java from Oracle, there is a vast difference in ideology . It still seems that Oracle does not want to give up that the Database Engine is application and not just a data store. This is the reason I avoid any ADF type work. The database is just that a data store not the application.

  3. It's nice that Oracle and I agree by Required+Snark · · Score: 4, Funny
    I don't much care for Java and now Oracle is trying to kill it.

    I never thought I would be on the same side as them.

    --
    Why is Snark Required?
    1. Re:It's nice that Oracle and I agree by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Interesting

      According to most developers who know both C# and Java, C# is the better one.

      That's like saying you prefer drinking the water from the Pacific ocean over water from the Atlantic ocean. For th emost part, both languages are the same......enough so that you can accidentally be looking at one and think you are looking at the other.

      C# programmers will say they prefer C# over Java, and the reasons they give are usually syntax-sugar related. Properties are kind of cool, I agree, but that misses the point of the purpose of Java:

      Java exists to make things very simple, so that even incompetent programmers can work in it without messing things up too badly. By adding extra features, although they are fun features, C# messes that up, allowing programmers to do really stupid things. That's not the worst insult I have for C# programmers, but I ought to keep it polite.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:It's nice that Oracle and I agree by JcMorin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Java is lagging behind C# for years now on every new features: enum (2004 vs 2002), generic (2004 vs 2002), anonymous function, lambda (2011 vs 2008).. pick your own and compare. Java is still lacking of 64-bit addressable arrays, async code as of Java SE9. Regarding poison pill worth mentioning that C# language is an open source Ecma and ISO standard... something Java is not. The compiler is open source so the whole framework. Microsoft repeatedly said that they want interoperability with other implementations such as mono... they even helped them at some point. During that time Java user get sue and now fine. I don't think we can say both C# and Java are the same at all.

    3. Re:It's nice that Oracle and I agree by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      During that time Java user get sue and now fine. I don't think we can say both C# and Java are the same at all.

      Java and C# are protected by the same kinds of licenses, so you're deluded if you think the kinds of things happening to Java users can't happen to you.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  4. Re:JavaScript by Tablizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The industry prefers a strongly typed language for certain mission-critical applications, but the choices are dwindling there. Dynamic languages are just a poor fit for certain applications.

    JavaScript is not a viable alternative also because it has an awkward OOP model and/or syntax that forces one to over-use anonymous functions or lamdbas.

    --
    Table-ized A.I.
  5. Re:JavaScript by Z00L00K · · Score: 2

    I agree, the question is if this headache may cause Ada to grow stronger. But even though C# isn't as good and strict as Java it's likely the language that will benefit from this.

    --
    If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
  6. Re:At which point do you need to pay for Java? by NotInHere · · Score: 2

    I guess if its after oracle, you'll already have to pay them if you are asking these questions on slashdot.

  7. Overall story: Java is dead. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The overall story: Java is dead.

    Java will die at a speed limited the by ability of large corporations to move away from using it.

    1. Re:Overall story: Java is dead. by Hylandr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Java will die at a speed limited the by ability of large corporations to move away from using it.

      This is hugely accurate.

      It will probably stick around for a while in small shops, but any large corp that gets a bill will ditch Java in favor of the bottom line.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
  8. Re:Death moans by phantomfive · · Score: 2

    I would agree with you, but it's hard to call this a burning ship when they've been doing the same thing for over two decades.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  9. Re:At which point do you need to pay for Java? by burnetd · · Score: 2

    You have to pay if you need to use this flag...

    -XX:+UnlockCommercialFeatures

    ...which is a damn sight clearer than most of Oracle licensing which can be literally a user selected from the wrong table.

  10. Re:I really hate to defend ORACLE on this by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A former client actually had this policy specifically related to Oracle products. No stuff allowed that doesn't run on the free JRE, and no Oracle database products at all, unless it applied to a mission critical piece of software for which there was no viable alternative. The reason: Oracle was too expensive, and they were tired of the audits and the constant nickel & diming. And this was a Fortune 500 company with deep pockets and no fear of (over)spending.

    --
    If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
  11. Dealing with Oracle is risky by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I have seen them try to claim license fees for trivial things within my own company. It cost them in the long run, since IT abandoned their software in short order, due to this vindictive approach.
    The crazy API copyright case made Java a non-starter for any new projects, since they effectively want to contaminate third party code bases with their copyright, if you use any Oracle APIs, making it impossible to port/wrap Oracle designed interfaces. It was something our legal people couldn't countenance, resulting in a Java ban. Not a good way to run your business.
    I don't see Oracle having any long term future. Nobody would make a new deployment of any of their products. The Oracle database is still a good product, but for most workloads, open source or commercial alternatives are cheaper/faster. In my opinion Oracle is still a better all round product than nearly all the alternatives. That's not enough any more though. The prohibitive costs, poor support, threats, and contempt for customers are insurmountable barriers. Like Sun, I think Oracle will vanish in the long run.

    1. Re:Dealing with Oracle is risky by plover · · Score: 5, Funny

      Once the lawsuits were over and SCO was finally unplugged from the life support lawyers, Darl McBride was leaving the courthouse. Ironically, he slipped on a banana peel on the courthouse steps, and as he fell, he dropped the mantle of 'Litigious Bastards'. Larry was walking by, picked it up, and tried it on. It was still warm and comfy! So he brought it back home, had the tailors in the licensing department do some alterations, and now he's going to put it on as everyday wear, just like Zuckerberg and his hoodies.

      "And that, my children, is how the Ghost of Larry Ellison came to haunt the valley. Now, off to bed with you all!"

      --
      John
  12. Re:At which point do you need to pay for Java? by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 5, Informative

    JEE is not proprietary. JEE is a (dead-end) standard for which multiple open source and proprietary implementations exists, both free to use (with paid commercial support) and fully paid.

    What the article is about is about Java SE (Standard Edition) Suite and Advanced. This is apparently just Java SE with some additional (non-gratis) tools.

  13. Re:At which point do you need to pay for Java? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Long-time java developer here. I had to search myself as TFA is incredibly vague and the focus seems to be more on generating some sensationalist FUD.
    To me it seems you're in the clear if you use the "standard" java stack for reading/running software such as jre, jdk, java ee,....
    I think Oracle is only ramping up license inspection for clearly marked pay-for products such as http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javaseproducts/overview/java-advanced-getstarted-2249239.html (java desktop, never heard of it), seems to contain the jrockit vm, monitoring tools, enterprise grade installer,....
    I'm no Oracle fanboy (at all), but this seems no different from open source companies providing commercial enterprise-grade tooling on top of their base product.

    Anyway, I could be wrong. But realistically speaking if Oracle really touches on the free character of java they will lose their developer community overnight.

  14. Re:Bait and switch? by ledow · · Score: 2

    Why wait? Just remove anything Java from your systems.

    Seriously, when the owner of a technology starts getting like this, there's no clawing back custom.

    Just start planning to leave the entire platform now. Because the situation isn't going to get any better, even if you do win a lawsuit on reasonableness grounds.

  15. Re:C# here we come! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why? Why would anyone be stupid enough to do that? It has every potential to turn into a case of "out of the fire into the frying pan".

    Microsoft is not one bit more trustworthy than Oracle.

  16. Re:C# here we come! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Microsoft has released a CLR implementation under an MIT license, has put everything required to implement the CLR into an ECMA standard, and has released a public promise not to sue for any patents involved in the implementation of a CLR. Some of the APIs are exempt, but these are largely the Windows-specific ones. If you write portable C# code, then it's basically impossible for Microsoft to sue anyone that provides you with a platform on which to run it. Oracle has shown that this is not true for Java.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  17. Re:JavaScript by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

    Most of those issues are ones of taste, not significant barriers. The real problem with JavaScript is that it has a single numerical type, and that type is a stupid choice. You can't do 64-bit integer arithmetic in JavaScript in a remotely sane way.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  18. Re:JavaScript by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

    However, ARM still maintains control

    And if you want to see what happens when they don't, look at what happened to MIPS. Every MIPS vendor implemented their own extensions and you have a choice between portable code and code that runs at a reasonable speed. In contrast, ARM binaries run on any ARM system. RISC-V still hasn't yet designated different parts of their NOP space for trapping and non-trapping NOPs, so extension is going to be difficult, and the RISC-V Foundation still doesn't have a process for introducing extensions for review and standardisation. This is why the ARM ecosystem is so valuable and the MIPS ecosystem is a wasteland.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  19. Re: CS curriculum by SirAudioMan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I agree with you! However, C/C++ isn't 'sexy' and isn't a buzzword thrown around to attract more students. Learning C/C++ is hard as a first language, though it makes for better programmers. Java looks easy but encourages bad design principals. I wish more CS schools would teach first principals like used to be taught 20-30 years ago.

  20. Here's the reason behind the wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    The Java [garbage collection] license [garbage collection] [garbage collection] [garbage collection] audit [garbage collection] [garbage collection] routines were
    [garbage collection] written in [garbage collection] [garbage collection] [garbage collection] java and [garbage collection] [garbage collection] because of the code [garbage collection] [garbage collection][garbage collection] size the gar [garbage collection] [garbage collection] bage collector [garbage collection] [garbage collection] could [garbage collection] [garbage collection] not keep up.

    Java is faster [garbage collection] [garbage collection] [garbage collection][garbage collection] than C [garbage collection] [garbage collection] you [garbage collection] [garbage collection] [garbage collection] just have to [garbage collection] [garbage collection][garbage collection] wait [garbage collection] [garbage collection] [garbage collection] for the JIT and [garbage collection] [garbage collection] GC routines [garbage collection] [garbage collection][garbage collection] to profile [garbage collection] [garbage collection][garbage collection] your [garbage collection] [garbage collection][garbage collection] code.

  21. -XX:+UnlockCommercialFeatures by Corporate+T00l · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I know everyone loves to hate on Java and Oracle, but my understanding is that in order to access the licensed features, you have to deliberately add the command line arg "-XX:+UnlockCommercialFeatures". It doesn't seem like rocket science what this might mean...

    1. Re:-XX:+UnlockCommercialFeatures by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Very true. Now pay your legal team $1400 an hour to supervise the audit to show you've never done that.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  22. Re:JavaScript by tomhath · · Score: 2

    Yes, we're saying the same thing. Pick the right tool for the job.

  23. Translation.... by Lumpy · · Score: 2

    Oracle begins aggressively trying to Kill Java.

    Java is already starting the death phase, and Oracle just wants it to die already by trying to encourage companies to not use it.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  24. Why Sun created Java by unixisc · · Score: 2

    Actually, Sun originally aimed to create an entire ecosystem of a platform from Java. It included modifications to C++ as a language, including virtual machines to solve the issue of cross-platform portability, and even a (short lived) CPU platform that would have used bytecode as the instruction set.

    The reason most of the users went to PC/Linux platforms was that you had Linux that was a common factor to both x86 and SPARC, and you not only had lower prices for the former, but it also had a wide range of price points compared to SPARC.

  25. Re: Android created a generation of Java programme by Tough+Love · · Score: 2

    Half of all programmers are below average. It's a statistical tautology and meaningless.

    Not quite meaningless, it implies that the average as the same as the mean. BTW, isn't "meaningless tautology" a superfluous redundancy?

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.