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Vera Rubin, Pioneering Astronomer Who Confirmed Existence of Dark Matter, Dies At 88 (www.cbc.ca)

Mikkeles quotes a report from CBC.ca: Vera Rubin, a pioneering astronomer who helped find powerful evidence of dark matter, has died, her son said Monday. She was 88. Vera Rubin found that galaxies don't quite rotate the way they were predicted, and that lent support to the theory that some other force was at work, namely dark matter. Rubin's scientific achievements earned her numerous awards and honors, including a National Medal of Science presented by then-president Bill Clinton in 1993 "for her pioneering research programs in observational cosmology." She also became the second female astronomer to be elected to the National Academy of Sciences.

162 comments

  1. An Amazing Human by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

    She was a truly amazing person and an inspiration to us all, male OR female.

    1. Re: An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And yet there will be fewer posts on here than on the one about the do-nothing space princess.

    2. Re: An Amazing Human by burtosis · · Score: 2

      Reminds me of the time Sinfeld visited the campus I was on, the entire surrounding campus was teeming with people and it packed the auditorium. Roger Penrose came the next week and it was a ghost town, barely filling a small lecture hall. Guess people have their priorities.

    3. Re: An Amazing Human by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      Ultimately, Rubin's research into dark matter will lead to the invention of the hyperdrive, enabling interstellar travel.

    4. Re: An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if you want wide spread fame do not become a Scientist.
      Or an IT professional , or Programmer.

    5. Re: An Amazing Human by lucm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's kinda sad, especially since Seinfeld is not even funny. Even in the show named after him he was the least funny character.

      --
      lucm, indeed.
    6. Re:An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Did she lead some sort of rebel alliance? Did she take down the Empire? What were her accomplishments, if not those?

    7. Re: An Amazing Human by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      1) there is no proof of the existence of dark matter.
      2) Carrie Fisher is A LOT more than just Princess Leia. Maybe do some research?

      Not to take anything away from Vera Rubin, but this not a zero-sum game.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
    8. Re: An Amazing Human by murdocj · · Score: 1

      so sorry for you.

    9. Re:An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lots of deaths recently. Grim reminders that no matter how great your achievements, eventually it all ends.

      Humanity has been seriously dragging its feet on curing aging. It's about time we got on that!

    10. Re:An Amazing Human by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      She found Billy Crystal too whiny, only to marry his friend with the mustache.

    11. Re: An Amazing Human by Trax3001BBS · · Score: 1

      And yet there will be fewer posts on here than on the one about the do-nothing space princess.

      Carrie Fisher? I had to quit watching the news.

      Not a word about someone I've never heard of before who has made more of an impact on mine and others way of thinking than some actress.

      In the field of astronomy it's rare to be proven right while still alive - her findings "have been confirmed over the subsequent decades" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... she had that going for her.

      I've never heard of her before, her observations or them being related to dark matter, just that there wasn't enough gravity in a Galaxy to hold them together.

    12. Re:An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Humanity has been seriously dragging its feet on curing aging. It's about time we got on that!"

      Oh no no, that's unnatural. Colonizing space, now that's natural.

    13. Re:An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Death cures aging rather effectively. It has a 100% chance to stop aging in (previously-)living organisms.

    14. Re: An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aging is not a disease so it can't be cured. It's the natural course of all life: accept it.

    15. Re: An Amazing Human by sg_oneill · · Score: 1

      Seinfeld himself is hilarious. However on his show he primarily played the straight man foil for the other characters to bounce their lunacy off.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    16. Re: An Amazing Human by Goaway · · Score: 1

      1) there is no proof of the existence of dark matter.

      And the Bullet Cluster is...?

    17. Re:An Amazing Human by serviscope_minor · · Score: 0

      OOOh is this an example of an SJW? Someone who drags gender into everything?

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    18. Re: An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can be a scientist and be popular - Neil DeGrasse Tyson certainly is - but computer-related professions are for antisocial losers.

    19. Re: An Amazing Human by haruchai · · Score: 4, Informative

      And yet there will be fewer posts on here than on the one about the do-nothing space princess.

      Carrie Fisher was an author, playwright and script and public speaker on bipolar disorder and substance abuse.
      I love that cosmological stuff something fierce but none of it has an immediate impact on my daily life whereas I personally know about a dozen with bipolar & dozens more through them

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    20. Re: An Amazing Human by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      It's kinda sad, especially since Seinfeld is not even funny. Even in the show named after him he was the least funny character.

      Been that way forever. Gracie Allen was funnier than all hell, and George Burns was a hanger on, a drone who wasn't funny at all. Ray Romano from Everybody loves Raymond, was surrounded by hilarious people, and he was a depressing jerk.

      Can I get a whoosh?

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    21. Re: An Amazing Human by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      1) there is no proof of the existence of dark matter.

      There is something. You keep using the term dark matter. I do not think it means what you think it means.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    22. Re: An Amazing Human by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      1) there is no proof of the existence of dark matter.

      And the Bullet Cluster is...?

      Sponsored by the NRA?

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    23. Re:An Amazing Human by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Humanity has been seriously dragging its feet on curing aging. It's about time we got on that!

      Aging is the cure for humanity.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    24. Re: An Amazing Human by hey! · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As a rule people who see others responding to X and say, "Well what about Y?" don't give a shit about X or Y.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    25. Re: An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The show was mostly dumb dialog between long laugh tracks.

    26. Re: An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What nonsense. Every symptom of aging is a disease. Why should we accept it? Did we accept 50% death rate during childbirth? Did we accept polio?

      Did you?

      Hypocrite.

    27. Re: An Amazing Human by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      A better response would be:

      Dark matter is the proof of itself. You see we made up the phrase "dark matter" to describe a set of observations that appear to be repercussions of something we cannot directly (as of yet) observe. So the fact that it exists is a tautology, and is therefore impossible to argue with.

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    28. Re: An Amazing Human by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      A better response would be:

      Dark matter is the proof of itself. You see we made up the phrase "dark matter" to describe a set of observations that appear to be repercussions of something we cannot directly (as of yet) observe. So the fact that it exists is a tautology, and is therefore impossible to argue with.

      But of course, we want to find out exactly what is going on with this "dark matter". We certainly know that there is something in the universe that doesn't quite jibe with our theories.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    29. Re: An Amazing Human by dywolf · · Score: 1

      other than a bunch of unexplainable observations that indicate there is far more mass in the universe than we are able to see.
      some sort of matter that is difficult to see.
      as if it were "dark" or something.
      i wonder what could we call such a thing while we set about trying to figure out what made us say "gee, that's odd" in the first place?

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    30. Re: An Amazing Human by dywolf · · Score: 1

      So you're saying she's the real life Norma Cenva?

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    31. Re: An Amazing Human by dywolf · · Score: 1

      there are more than a handful biologically immortal living things, where death, when it comes, almost always comes from an outside source unrelated to the passage of time.

      several species of hydras, jellyfish, lobsters, planarian flatworms, several variety of turtle and tortoise, and certain bacteria, all do not age as we know it. upon examination they show little or no decrease in bodily function, organs indistinguishable from much younger individuals, like we associate with most other species as they get older.

      and that's not even getting into the plant world where we have things like giant redwoods, quaking aspen, and bristlecone pines, all living for thousands and possibly tens of thousands of years if given the opportunity.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    32. Re: An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, they just want to be recognized for 'being involved'. A fifteen minutes of fame sort of response. I guess even schmucks want to be heard.
      *just realized I'm doing it now too, lol. Anyways yes people love to be involved even if they're wrong.

    33. Re: An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that is the arrogance of physicists.

      We certainly know that there is something in the universe that doesn't quite jibe with our theories.

      No. We certainly know that there is something in our theories that doesn't jibe with the universe.

      Reality takes precedence over theories. Theories are forever incomplete summaries of what is. Dogmatism, even subconscious language usage giving prominence to theory, is the cornerstone of superstition, not science.

    34. Re: An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you, President Hitler. When will the gas chamb...er, awesome, fantastic permanent relaxation pods be built?

    35. Re: An Amazing Human by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      And that is the arrogance of physicists.

      We certainly know that there is something in the universe that doesn't quite jibe with our theories.

      No. We certainly know that there is something in our theories that doesn't jibe with the universe.

      Those two things are the same thing

      Because a theory is just that. A falsifiable concept, tested against reality. If the reality does not agree with the theory, the theory is incorrect, and must be changed. If the theory does not agree with reality, the theory is incorrect, and must be changed.

      Come on, you should know that. Otherwise it is just word smithing.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    36. Re: An Amazing Human by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      You should probably do some googling before trying to be cute. It would save you from looking like an ass.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
    37. Re: An Amazing Human by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      Sorry, it's not proof. It just shows there's something going on that we cannot explain.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
    38. Re: An Amazing Human by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      Damn right I want to know! I feel that there could be something groundbreaking in this line of inquiry, just waiting for us to figure it out. I get the feeling you do too.

      Here is a link to something that should be considered. A bit disappointing in my opinion in one way, as it rules out many of the more exciting answers to the question of dark matter, but exciting in its own way. You may find this interesting: 153 galaxies with rotation speeds that can be inferred directly from their observable matter

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    39. Re: An Amazing Human by lucm · · Score: 1

      It's kinda sad, especially since Seinfeld is not even funny. Even in the show named after him he was the least funny character.

      Been that way forever. Gracie Allen was funnier than all hell, and George Burns was a hanger on, a drone who wasn't funny at all. Ray Romano from Everybody loves Raymond, was surrounded by hilarious people, and he was a depressing jerk.

      Can I get a whoosh?

      No. Read the thread again and if you still don't understand, move on.

      --
      lucm, indeed.
    40. Re: An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoosh!

    41. Re: An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Err.... Probably not. There still remains no evidence for dark matter. Wherever dark mattter is used to explain observed circumstances the amount "observed" has to be ad hoc. There is no predictive value in the concept of dark matter. It is not science but a circular argument that ignores Occam's Razor.

      There are far better explanations.

    42. Re: An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A complex system of which we have limited observations. All of which require some form of gravitational lensing to analyze. Do the numbers one way you get the implication of hidden mass. Do the math another way and there is nothing to explain.

      Think otherwise? Easily fixed.

      Compare predicted and observed rotational velocities of stars in the Milky Way and those of the Centauri system. Both fail for extremely low acceleration. The same low acceleration. The hypothetical (not theoretical) dark matter can be used to explain one but not both.

      For each time we invoke the magic words 'dark matter' we have to elaborate dark matter further and further until it appears that dark matter is as rich and complex as all physics considered to date.

      Dark matter is a Procrustean bed. A valueless concept.

      The one thing we "know" is that our observations do not fit GR predictions when acceleration drops below a single an consistent value. That is important and only a few seem to have noticed it.

    43. Re: An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are describing Unruh radiation I believe. It provides for (calculable) inertia and mass.

    44. Re: An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then dark matter does not qualify as a theory as it not falsifiable (since it just gets added to). The idea jumped the shark long ago

    45. Re: An Amazing Human by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have no evidence that there is any missing mass. Unless we value theory over observation.

      Favour theory (GR) over observation and we conclude the observation must be wrong - missing mass.

      Favour observation over theory and we conclude the theory is insufficient.

      Remember epicycles? Modern physics seems to have forgotten them.

      GR fails at low accelerations. That is what we have observed. Inventing missing mass to explain it, as the first assumption is contradictory to th philosophy of science. William of Occam's would turn over in his grave

    46. Re: An Amazing Human by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      It's kinda sad, especially since Seinfeld is not even funny. Even in the show named after him he was the least funny character.

      Been that way forever. Gracie Allen was funnier than all hell, and George Burns was a hanger on, a drone who wasn't funny at all. Ray Romano from Everybody loves Raymond, was surrounded by hilarious people, and he was a depressing jerk.

      Can I get a whoosh?

      No. Read the thread again and if you still don't understand, move on.

      Some days. Perhaps you don't like Jerry Seinfeld. That's okay. A lot of people do however, so its a matter of taste. But to your point of him being the least funny character - yeah, he was. That's called being a straight man. Seinfeld played the straight man on the show, but he was behind everyone else's characters. As was George Burns. As was Ray Romano.

      Straight man (or woman) is a staple of comedy, along with Stupid fat husband and hottie wife (think King of Queens) Or the only sensible person in the room surrounded by the hot wife and mixed crazies. (Bob Newhart comes to mind) So often, the straight man is the person writing the lines for all of the "funny people".

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    47. Re: An Amazing Human by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Whoosh!

      Thank you very much!

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    48. Re: An Amazing Human by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Dark matter is the name of the "going on". If you recognize that something is going on, then you imply that "Dark Matter" is real effect. To say Dark Matter is not real is to say the "going on" is not real.

    49. Re: An Amazing Human by lucm · · Score: 1

      So often, the straight man is the person writing the lines for all of the "funny people"

      Larry David was the one writing the funny lines. All Seinfeld did in that show was the lame stand up bits and being boring in general.

      --
      lucm, indeed.
    50. Re:An Amazing Human by ananamouse · · Score: 1

      > Lots of deaths recently.
      Keith Fucking Richards is still alive. Who would have thunk it.

    51. Re: An Amazing Human by Goaway · · Score: 1

      None of what you said makes any sense.

  2. Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by digitalride · · Score: 4, Informative

    and Rubin wasn't a huge fan of it either:
    "If I could have my pick, I would like to learn that Newton's laws must be modified in order to correctly describe gravitational interactions at large distances. That's more appealing than a universe filled with a new kind of sub-nuclear particle."

    I have high hopes for this new theory that can account for the galaxy rotation problem ( and the emDrive ): http://physicsfromtheedge.blog...

    --
    Open Source is Common Sense: http://groovix.com/
    1. Re:Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by 110010001000 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Take your emDrive nonsense somewhere else. It is a disgrace to even mention it here when a real scientist has died.

    2. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by xtal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Science disproves through experiment and fact. Those theories are being experimentally tested, data is being collected, and they are falsifiable. Both are well past the bar for requiring further investigation.

      Shame on YOU.

      --
      ..don't panic
    3. Re:Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by Goaway · · Score: 2

      MOND has long since been proven to be nonsense. It's an eve worse kludge, that explains only a few of the many distinct problems that are all solved by dark matter.

      MOND is by far the less elegant solution than dark matter.

    4. Re:Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by joao.cordeiro · · Score: 3, Funny

      When a scientist trusts a theory so much that he stops considering any desagreing theory, he stops being a scientist and becomes a believer.
      . When the above happens to a large group of scientists, they become a religion.
      When that large group of scientists start perusing other scientists for having diverging theories, ideas, opinions, It becomes an inquisition.

      It is ok for you to explain why EmDrive should not work or the mistakes made in EmDrive experiments that would compromise the results.
      It is NOT OK fo you to call them "not real scientists".
      Doing it the true disgrace here.

    5. Re:Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's up to you with your "alternative theory" to show it is AT LEAST as good as the current one, even to get someone interested in helping. They are under no obligation to give you their time or effort. The ones who came up with the current paradigm had to deal with the same thing, why are YOU so precious a snowflake that you should get a free pass?

      Wanting your claims to be accepted on your say-so is NOT what a real scientist does. The shoe fits. Wear it.

    6. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The EM drive experiment isn't beyond further investigation. The experiment had many flaws that need to be addressed. The scientists that originally ran it themselves were skeptical of their findings.

    7. Re:Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by joao.cordeiro · · Score: 1

      That works both ways.
      Saying a investigation is not valid is an investigation by it self. And it requires work and prof or at least debate.

      But that's not the level we are talking about here.
      Here we are talking about not even attributing the name "scientist" to some one who is investigating an alternative. Just because he has yet to prof his theory.
      This is an insult to every one that as ever asked the question "how does this work?" or "Is this really the best explanation to the phenomenon?".

      To be a scientist all you need is to be able to ask your self those questions.

    8. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Take your eCat results with you.

    9. Re:Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that would be a CLAIM. For it to be supported would require work and proof. But this does not remove your burden to prove your "theory" is worth even talking about. Because I don't have to say ANYTHING about your "theory" being bollocks. So stop telling me what I'm saying.

      PS given that the EmDrive HAS been tested and shown to be very poor and probably a fiction, much like FTL neutrinos, that has been done enough for the low bar necessary for ordinary claims. You have your burden on an EXTRAordinary change.

    10. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by joao.cordeiro · · Score: 1

      Aparently you dont know the definition of theory or claim.
      https://en.oxforddictionaries....
      https://en.oxforddictionaries....

      A theory is a set of ideas that the author is not sure of. When prof arrives, it becomes a Law. A claim is when ppl anounce a theory to the world as if it was a law but with no prof.
      Ppl researching EMdrive do not claim it to be 100% as they say it. They are just saying "lets study it and test how far it goes".
      On the other end you, without any prof, are trying to pass as a law that they are wrong. Now that is a claim.

    11. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Scientifically, a theory is a collection of related evidence, mathematical models, and ways of thinking about something. It is never actually proven. A Law is the next best thing to a proven theory, and some have had to be revised (conservation of energy and conservation of matter in the Twentieth Century), but not often.

      The EM Drive, if it works as claimed, violates the Laws of Conservation of Momentum and Conservation of Matter and Energy. While these could conceivably be wrong, that would mean that the laws of physics vary over fairly short distances in ways that have not been observed before (see Noether's Theorem). Neither AC nor you nor I made up these laws, or that theorem, and so I feel very confident in saying that the EM drive isn't what it's often claimed to be. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Claiming that conservation laws are simply wrong is extraordinary, and I haven't seen anything quite up to ordinary evidence that the EM drive works.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    12. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by joao.cordeiro · · Score: 1

      Can you reference any work where they define a theory as requiring "collection of related evidence"?
      Or is it just your opinion?

    13. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by joao.cordeiro · · Score: 1

      "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
      To become a LAW: YES!
      To be subject of study without the scientists having to fear for their jobs, NO!

    14. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, to be worth considering.

    15. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. I can say that the universe runs on Fairy dust and FTL is possible by wishing on a falling star. Science requires I offer some sort of backing for my claims before it even gets consideration for testing.

    16. Re:Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      What we have here is a classic example of the typical closed minded religion-susceptible person, who for some reason has no religion. They posses all of the flaws that come along with a narrow minded approach to reality, combined with immutable preconceived notions and a pathological inability to think logically.

      Like a self proclaimed Christian that systematically kills people in direct contravention of the book they proclaim to hold in eternal esteem, this self proclaimed lover of science purports to know better than the scientific method. They are completely certain of unproven facts, so much so that they declare experimentation and exploration of unknowns completely unnecessary. They resort to ridicule of those who would toe the line and see the process through as intended. They place their ego in front of all other concerns.

      So, as you can see, in the disparate realms of both human spirituality and cosmic science, neither are a match for the inestimable depths of human ignorance.

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    17. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by joao.cordeiro · · Score: 1

      "worth considering" is not a fixed level, it depends from person to person, from scientist to scientist.
      I have no problem with the 95% of scientists that do not find it "worth considering". My problem is with the ones that actively fight against the idea that some find it "worth considering", calling them "not real scientists".....

      There are very strong similarities between this behavior and the Inquisition:

      "To say that earthquakes are not acts of God is the same as saying that there is no God. I here by sentence you to lose all your titles and lands"
      "To say that electromagnetic waves can alone generate a force is the same as saying that the Conservation of Momentum and Conservation of Matter and Energy does not exist. I here by revoke your title of scientist and you will never again be taken seriously"

      Earthquakes dont revoke God. They are just movements of the tectonic plates. They don't proof or disproof God, at most they change how God influences the world.
      In the same way, the emDrive dos not revoke the "Conservation of Momentum and Conservation of Matter". It just suggests that the "Conservation of Momentum and Conservation of Matter" Law is probably incomplete and requires expansion.

    18. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Schrödinger already left with it!! (Or wait, did he?) Check the box to make certain 110010001000, and I'll hold AC in case she tries to run for it.

    19. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by joao.cordeiro · · Score: 1

      Science requires you to translate your dream in numbers, find ways to test those numbers, and post your results.
      If you do this correctly you are a scientist, even if your dream is just stupid stuff.
      Science the search for the truth behind things. Its not confined to the end of the search. All the middle steps are also science.

    20. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      If the EM Drive works as stated, it violates those conservation laws. That's an objective, verifiable, fact. It has nothing to do with religious beliefs.

      If those conservation laws are violated, it means the laws of physics vary significantly over space and time. That's also an objective, verifiable fact.

      We've been bouncing microwaves around cavities for a long time, and we've never come up with something like this. Violations of physical theories that are accepted enough to be called "Laws" usually involves some sort of exotic condition, and this isn't one.

      In other words, I'm perfectly comfortable saying that the EM Drive is not a reactionless drive. I'm not saying that it's not worth looking into, because there's obviously something we don't understand going on (unless it's experimental error, which is something we pretty well understand). The chance that it turns out to be interesting new physics is pretty darn low, but it wouldn't hurt to see.

      BTW, electromagnetic waves can generate a force. The claims for EM drive thrust are much higher than that, though.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    21. Re:Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That proves nothing. Einstein didn't like Quantum Mechanics and ended up wasting what could have been productive years because it didn't sit well with him.

    22. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your problem is that MiHsC is more predictive of EM Drive behavior and predicts that the EM Drive works because of conservation of momentum rather than despite it. This invalidates your argument

    23. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by Demena · · Score: 1

      Do you not see you are doing exactly the same thing? That your post describes yourself? There is no doubt at this time that the EM Drive has anomalous effects. We have repeatability. I can find no experimental confirmations of failure. At least two groups are building them into satellites for even further confirmations. Day by day confirmations increase. Do I hear any experimental cries of "it doesn't work"? No. Only people saying it cannot work. That is a bit bloody religious not the other way around. The usual reason given is that it violates the conservation of momentum. Yet there are theories that explain its function as moving because of conservation of momentum. (Check out MiHsC) There is a good and solid GR reason why the EM Drive works. Unruh radiation. But, you know, so what? You may not think so but examining anomalies is vital to science. Penicillin being a classic example.

    24. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by joao.cordeiro · · Score: 1

      "If the EM Drive works as stated, it violates those conservation laws. That's an objective, verifiable, fact."
      No its not a fact or objective.
      The Conservation laws can be simplifications of something much more complex the same way a real logarithm is a simplification of a complex log logarithm.
      The definition of energy may be incomplete. We may find out in the future that what we considered energy in a composition of several other things and one or more but not all of those things obey the conservation laws.

      "We've been bouncing microwaves around cavities for a long time, and we've never come up with something like this"
      We are talking about specific frequencies that generate forces so low that can be confused with measuring errors. It is fairly normal for any one to disregard such low numbers as "errors".

      "Violations of physical theories that are accepted enough to be called "Laws" usually involves some sort of exotic condition, and this isn't one."
      The exotic condition is the quality of our equipment. Now we can measure allot of stuff that was predicted and given as a fact.

      "In other words, I'm perfectly comfortable saying that the EM Drive is not a reactionless drive"
      I agree with you on this one. "Reactionless" is the wrong word for it. I'm fairly sure that there is a reaction, it can be a wave change, a local change in spacetime fabric, or even something we are decades away from even considering. In this way, it could be "massless" and not "reactionless".

      "The claims for EM drive thrust are much higher than that"
      It took us forever to have more then 10% efficiency on solar panels even after we understood the theory behind it. In the case of the emDrive being real, i dont think we have a good understanding of how it works. So i would guess the efficiency is realy realy low.

      "but it wouldn't hurt to see"
      Exacly. Ppl reading my comment may think I'm 100% supporter and believer of the emDrive. Im not. I think there is about 20% chance that it actually works.
      But I will always bet on the 20% that represent progress then the 80% that gets us standing still.
      Also i wont tolerate any abuse against ppl trying to investigate those 20%. If they do it right, with good mathematics and good equipment and good experiments, they are scientists.

    25. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      Either you are responding to the wrong person, or your reading comprehension is out of phase by 180 degrees. Adjust accordingly.

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    26. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The EM Drive is supposed to convert energy into momentum, without reaction mass. That means that it's possible to get more energy out of it than was put into it. Momentum is mass times velocity. A unit increment of momentum, given constant mass, means a unit increment of velocity. Kinetic energy is one-half mass times the square of the velocity, so if you double the energy input, and hence the momentum increase, you increase kinetic energy by a factor of four. If putting in N joules results in a 1 joule increase in kinetic energy, then putting in N squared units results in N squared joules in kinetic energy, and after that you're making energy. Assuming Special Relativity holds, there can't be diminishing returns from putting more energy in as speed rises. This is an objective, verifiable fact. If the EM drive works as I described, we've basically got to rewrite physics from the ground up, and I consider the probability of that to be vanishingly small.

      When I said the claims for EM drive thrust are much higher than what you can get with using photons as reaction mass-equivalent, I was referring to the basic physics, not any implementation. Flashlights have recoil, you know. We can figure how much. You're certainly not going to notice the recoil by holding it in your hand. It is not possible for a photon rocket to come anywhere near the efficiency reported. This applies to any explanation based on masslessness rather than reactionlessness.

      It's conceivable that it could be remotely transferring momentum to the planet or something like that, which would be startling new physics that wouldn't violate conservation laws or relativity, but would require some sort of action at a distance, which would keep physicists busy for some time dealing with the consequences. More likely this is experimental error or pushing at the Earth's magnetic field or doing some directed outgassing or something like that. It is certainly possible to investigate it scientifically.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    27. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by Bengie · · Score: 1

      We've been bouncing microwaves around cavities for a long time, and we've never come up with something like this.

      I would stay away from arguments like this. Turns out many of the answers to "difficult questions" are right under our noses, sometimes literally. For example. We've been working on fighting MRSA for a long time. So happens that bacteria in our noses and gut secrete anti-biotics that have thus far killed MRSA with a 100% success rate in rats.

      Doing something for a long time is a pretty bad metric of useful experience or mastery of a subject. You need someone who thinks differently.

    28. Re: Dark Matter is a horrible kludge by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Momentum is mass times velocity

      That is an over-simplification. Light has momentum yet has no mass.

  3. Confirmed Existence? by sexconker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When exactly did we confirm the existence of dark matter?

    1. Re: Confirmed Existence? by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      29min ago, according to BeauHD...

    2. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no experimental evidence for either dark matter or dark energy.

      Someday, maybe. But not today.

    3. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 4, Informative

      What are you, a dark matter denier? The science is settled - there's consensus! We should now be turning our attention to finding that dark matter.

      Joking aside, Vera Rubin obviously did not confirm the existence of dark matter. That's a terrible headline. She discovered that current mass estimates of the universe could not account for the rotations of galaxies using current models.

      Everything beyond that is just a hypotheses, as no hint of "dark matter" has been found. I have a hunch that nothing will continue to be found until scientists figure out that their mass estimates were way off, or that the models were horribly wrong. Scientific "truths" are always getting clobbered by "ridiculous" new ideas, so it could go either way on this, but I'm betting on our lack of understanding rather than an invisible particle making up most of the mass of the universe.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    4. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We didn't. What she confirmed was that reality didn't fit previous models, confirming the need for something like Dark Matter.
      Bad summary, but it comes from oversimplified source materials that were rushed out as an obituary.

    5. Re:Confirmed Existence? by burtosis · · Score: 2, Informative

      Since the Bullet Cluster. Not not that but there are many other sources of gravitational lensing that dark matter describes well.

    6. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The moment we saw the gravitational lensing of the bullet cluster.

    7. Re:Confirmed Existence? by lucm · · Score: 2

      When exactly did we confirm the existence of dark matter?

      Duh, look it up, season 1 is on Netflix.

      --
      lucm, indeed.
    8. Re:Confirmed Existence? by dbIII · · Score: 2

      What's with the hysteria and the "joke"? All dark matter signifies is that there is a lot of stuff that we cannot currently see electromagnetically.
      Space is big. Space is dark. Why the hubris that we can see everything with our current technology?

    9. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No dark matter is not just normal matter that isn't emitting light. It isn't absorbing light either. If 90% of the galaxy was just non-emitting normal mater you'd see it blocking the luminous modules as dust clouds and globules.

      No model of modified gravity has been successful at explaining the evidence either.

      This place has gone from being a place for nerds, to a place where everyone thinks they're allowed an opinion without actually looking at the evidence. It's tragic.

    10. Re:Confirmed Existence? by PvtVoid · · Score: 1

      No dark matter is not just normal matter that isn't emitting light. It isn't absorbing light either. If 90% of the galaxy was just non-emitting normal mater you'd see it blocking the luminous modules as dust clouds and globules.

      Um.

      Things that absorb light also emit it, necessarily. Look up black body radiation sometime.

    11. Re:Confirmed Existence? by murdocj · · Score: 1

      They are merely the best theories for the observations.

    12. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 3, Informative

      You and I must have very different definitions of "hysteria". I was simply trying to clarify the current status of dark matter, so far as a layperson can understand it, as the headline seemed rather misleading. This is still "news for nerds", right? I'd hope we still value scientific accuracy in our science-based articles.

      I certainly wasn't trying to denigrate Vera Rubin's contribution to science, the most notable of which was a pretty amazing discovery. Nor will her contribution to science be lessened if the dark matter theory ends up wrong. It was a brilliant observation that no one else made, and it sparked a fascinating line of investigation, to which no one can really will predict exactly what the results will be. In any case, its bound to turn some previously held theories on their heads.

      And since you put "joke" in quotes, I'm sorry you didn't find it humorous. You can't please everyone, I guess.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    13. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right. Dark matter does neither. It does not participate in electromagnetic interactions, only gravity and (probably) the weak nuclear force. Which is exactly what the GP said, we would detect the down-shifted radiation from the dust clouds, most likely as IR.

    14. Re: Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      #DarkMatterMatters

    15. Re:Confirmed Existence? by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      I thought your original post was funny. Just ignore those with no sense of humor.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    16. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "No model of modified gravity has been successful at explaining the evidence either."

      Verlinde does a pretty good job of explaining it!

    17. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

      Everything beyond that is just a hypotheses, as no hint of "dark matter" has been found.

      I agree that "matter" is just a hypothesis, but you can't say no hint has been found. The observed gravitational effect is a huge hint.

      The hypothesis may be wrong, but it's the best hypothesis going. And there is plenty of evidence that the phenomenon is real, whether the matter hypothesis is correct or not.

      The Wikipedia article is worth a read.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    18. Re:Confirmed Existence? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      You and I must have very different definitions of "hysteria

      The act of framing it like the climate change denial situation then attempting to write it off as a "joke", shock-jock style, comes across that way, as well as the bits sowing seeds of doubt later.
      There has been a massive amount of science denial on this site and it's got to the point where the most ridiculous joke you can think of on a scientific subject is somebody else's serious conspiracy theory.

    19. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      Dark matter is not a theory, afaik. It's a placeholder meaning that a theory is needed. Modified Newtonian Gravity is one of many theories trying to fill in the blanks, as an example so you see the difference. I think that's still an hypothesis at this point, just being a framework for free variables that can be tweaked to fit observation.

      Still news for nerds, and as long as people correct people incorrectly, someone will jump your shit for it.

      I've left at least one mistake so you can learn a bit, correct me, and feel better about this debacle.

    20. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is also the state for most theories.

      Small correction in this case though - hypotheses, not theories. It hasn't leaped that hurdle yet.

    21. Re:Confirmed Existence? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      That's not completely true. There are possibilities for dark matter that absorb light but are compact enough that we don't routinely detect them. Primordial black holes and things like brown dwarfs were contenders for dark matter. Transit studies showed that there ARE a lot of brown dwarf type objects out there, but not enough to make up more than a fraction of the missing matter. Microlensing and other observations have put pretty good limits on the numbers and masses of black holes that can be wandering around, although IIRC there is a razor thin bit of parameter space that hasn't been ruled out that would let them make up a good chunk of dark matter.

    22. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone recently did revise estimates of the number of galaxies by an order of magnitude.

      http://phys.org/news/2016-10-universe-ten-galaxies-previously-thought.html

    23. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Goaway · · Score: 3, Informative

      MOND is one of the many theories that have tried and failed to explain all the anomalous results we have collected over the years. MOND is basically completely discredited at this point, and dark matter is the most simple and elegant theory we have to explain all the results we have.

    24. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but I'm betting on our lack of understanding rather than an invisible particle making up most of the mass of the universe.

      Well, we already have an (almost) invisible particle, the neutrino, which took scientists decades to detect after they started to look for it.
      There are about 1e11 solar neutrinos going through every square cm of your body every second, but only one in about 30 years will interact with an atom of your body.
      They would fit dark matter too, but there just aren't enough of them in the cosmic background.

      So, from that perspective, it isn't too much of a stretch to assume there could be a similar particle out there, that interacts even less with normal matter than a neutrino.
      The lack of understanding seems to be yours.

    25. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently, if i say "Ghosts can open doors" and you then find a opened door without anyone close to be responsible for it then you are confirming the existence of Ghosts.

    26. Re:Confirmed Existence? by joao.cordeiro · · Score: 1

      Apparently, if i say "Ghosts can open doors" and you then find a opened door without anyone close to be responsible for it then you are confirming the existence of Ghosts. (sorry for double post, forgot to login)

    27. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The link is a mobile phone version of wikipedia. :S Oh my.

    28. Re:Confirmed Existence? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      It does not participate in electromagnetic interactions THAT WE CAN CURRENTLY DETECT FROM MANY LIGHT YEARS AWAY.
      That is a very important distinction to make.

    29. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No.

      But if you posit that a phenomenon is explained by a fundamental particle with certain properties (mass, equation of state, charge), then someone else points out that such a particle would have a very specific effect in another phenomenon, and you observe that phenomenon, you have evidence for your particle. That's how particle physics works. It's how we found the neutrino, it's how we found the higgs, and hell, if you go back to Rutherford's initial gold leaf experiments, it's on the route to how we found protons.

    30. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      It does not participate in electromagnetic interactions THAT WE CAN CURRENTLY DETECT FROM MANY LIGHT YEARS AWAY. That is a very important distinction to make.

      So is the distinction that it may not even be "matter" as we know it. Dark matter is a placeholder, an unfortunate name that many have taken to mean some dark goo that we can't see, but we're gonna find a shitload of it some day. And that's a critical distinction to be made.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    31. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      p>There has been a massive amount of science denial on this site and it's got to the point where the most ridiculous joke you can think of on a scientific subject is somebody else's serious conspiracy theory.

      Tea Candles, and perpetual motion, BooYeah!

      All it takes is a trip to YouTube, search either phrase, and you end up in the kook section. People who won't believe actual science, but will latch on to any weird idea that some practical joker comes up with.

      And they are here on Slashdot as well.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    32. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      MOND is one of the many theories that have tried and failed to explain all the anomalous results we have collected over the years. MOND is basically completely discredited at this point, and dark matter is the most simple and elegant theory we have to explain all the results we have.

      Dark matter explains nothing because it is a placeholder that means there is something we don't understand going on. It's like a complicated formula with a box in the middle labeled "something cool happens here".

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    33. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, yeah, astrophysicists haven't considered that one. Thanks for that insight. It's not like MACHO was a leading theory for decades until being disproven by multiple lines of evidence.

    34. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So fucking stop calling it "Dark Matter".

      Start calling it "increased gravity disturbances" or "unknown gravity fluctuations" or "there's more gravity here than we expect spots, not really sure why".

      Don't get mad at everyone for thinking dark matter is, well, dark, matter.

    35. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Don't get mad at everyone for thinking dark matter is, well, dark, matter.

      Isn't it funny that you yap at me about getting angry? While you might have just flung a lot of spit on your keyboard typing that reply. Chilaxe bro, Dark Matter is an unfortunate name, nothing more, nothing less. Maybe matter as we know it, probably not. And some times people just need reminded of that.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    36. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dark Matter DOES explain things, BECAUSE it is a placeholder for something that is dark and matter, not luminous and not immaterial energy. You know, something that will cause gravitational effects but not interfere with photons.

    37. Re:Confirmed Existence? by joao.cordeiro · · Score: 1

      It all rests on what level does some evidence become proof.

      The dark matter theory implies a certain amount of characteristics on the so called dark matter.
      Some of those characteristics could have created what was observed by Vera Rubin.

      But can that evidence become the proof by it self? What about the other characteristics? Don't we need evidence of those too?

      I believe we do.
      Something else could be in play here. Something we can theorize now. Or even something we wont be able to theorize for many years.

      Please note that I'm not challenging the theory in any way. I'm just saying that "Confirmed" is an abusive word when talking about Dark Matter. But its still one of our best theories to explain what Vera Rubin observed.

    38. Re:Confirmed Existence? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      There's no experimental evidence that stars exist, either. Have we ever made one in the lab? There's a whole lot of observational evidence, just as there's lots of observational evidence of dark matter.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    39. Re:Confirmed Existence? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      It's something that has mass and doesn't interact electromagnetically. You know, kind of like a neutrino, except slower. We have observed it as such. What are you going to call it? What counts as finding it, considering we're never going to observe it using EM radiation? We can see the effects it has on spacetime.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    40. Re:Confirmed Existence? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      What's a "placeholder"? There's a lot of things we can't observe directly. By this line of reasoning, quarks and gluons are definitely "placeholders", since we're never going to observe an isolated quark or gluon.

      There's nothing complicated about dark matter. It's matter that doesn't interact electromagnstically. We just don't know much about its other properties. You might be thinking that galactic rotation curves are complicated, but gravitational lensing isn't.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    41. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Dark Matter DOES explain things, BECAUSE it is a placeholder for something that is dark and matter, not luminous and not immaterial energy. You know, something that will cause gravitational effects but not interfere with photons.

      So you adhere to the the "big friggin turd of Gawd almighty" theory?

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    42. Re:Confirmed Existence? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Suppose you see a door opening. You can come back any time you like and see it opening and closing, so you can make detailed observations, and anyone you want can come and see it doing that. You examine the area carefully, and find that there are no people or machinery doing it. You measure the breeze and find the air to be very still. You observe the hinges and find that they do have friction, so the door couldn't be swinging indefinitely from an initial impulse. You observe the mass distribution of the door and there's nothing odd about it. No matter how long you study it, you can't find anything that would make the door open and close, and everybody you bring in to observe it sees that the door is opening and closing with no reason why that might be happening.

      Then you find that some people can describe features of death scenes that they couldn't possibly know but get right. Again, you find that this continues to happen, and can be verified by anyone who bothers. You, and everyone else who checks, find that these people can also tell you personal details about the deceased.

      Would you find this evidence of the existence of ghosts?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    43. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      What's a "placeholder"? There's a lot of things we can't observe directly. By this line of reasoning, quarks and gluons are definitely "placeholders", since we're never going to observe an isolated quark or gluon.

      A place holder. A placeholder is just that. They have been in use since we've done science, and are critical to advancing science. It's kind of like the old "Strange and mysterious are the ways of God" that bible people use when backed into a corner, but with one critical difference.

      The bible people use their term as a way of squelching further argument or discussion. Science placeholders are used as noting that there is "something going on here that we don't understand" or know what it is, but instead of folding the tents and saying strange and mysterious are the ways of the universe, and stopping further research, the placeholder acknowledges the anomaly, and allows further research, and often the further research clarifies just what the placeholder is.

      Observing directly is not a requirement for confirmation or denial of a placeholder. http://physics.stackexchange.c... has a pretty good explanation. "Quarks" were indeed placeholders when first proposed in the mid 1960's. Further experiments have exposed things that act just like quarks were predicted to act. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... warning - headache inducing stuff.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    44. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. I guess you adhere to the "Big Alien Stuck Under A Mountain" theory?

      Fucking moron.

    45. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not how it works. Hypotheses don't "graduate" and become theories. That's absurd. An Hypothesis is nothing more than a testable prediction. A theory, in contrast, is a predictive model. They are separate and distinct concepts.

      This is Slashdot. I shouldn't need to explain this here!

    46. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Babylon+Rocker · · Score: 1

      Emergent Gravity and the Dark Universe, by Erik P. Verlinde, hypothesizes that the dark-matter gravitational effect is a result of an elastic effect within the universe.

    47. Re:Confirmed Existence? by crunchygranola · · Score: 2

      Someone recently did revise estimates of the number of galaxies by an order of magnitude.

      http://phys.org/news/2016-10-universe-ten-galaxies-previously-thought.html

      No, they didn't. You cannot read the popular summary written by someone who did not read the actual paper to understand what the finding was. What they found was ten times more galaxies that had been seen to date in the early Universe, due to the limitations of the data collection methods used thus far, but this matches the expected value that is predicted by current theoretical models!

      The number of galaxies in the Universe declines with time, as their average mass increases due to processes of galactic coalescence. This paper detected the galaxy density at an earlier time than hitherto been observed, but this closely matches the expected value predicted for example by the theoretical model cited in the paper (Torrey, P., et al. 2015, MNRAS, 454, 2770).

      So instead of "revising estimates" it instead confirmed predictions an almost diametrically opposite result.

      --
      Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
    48. Re:Confirmed Existence? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I'm not disagreeing with anything you said, but at what point does a placeholder turn into an observation? Quarks were a nice theoretical concept until deep inelastic scattering showed that there were three things in a baryon and two in a meson, so people started calling them observed and accepting their existence. One might consider dark matter as a nice theoretical concept to explain galactic rotation curves, and then we observed gravitational lensing. Why don't you consider this finding dark matter when you apparently consider finding that protons have three points of deflection finding a quark?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    49. Re:Confirmed Existence? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Evidence is what we've got. Do you think protons are made up of three quarks? The evidence for that is pretty indirect. We had this neat quark theory, and we found that there are three things in a proton. AFAIK, there's not much more, if any, than that.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    50. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting.

      What was the predicted value from Torrey, et al? And was there more than one predicted value?

      Here's the paper: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a9e8/0364517ee2ac4ce1f47ff6de40b832b65d08.pdf

    51. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody wrote anything about '"graduate"' except you. So perhaps you misinterpreted was written.

      The hurdle is moving from testable prediction into the widely accepted predictive model. They are not totally separate and distinct concepts. You cannot have a theoretical body of knowledge without having hypotheses that are tested (i.e. evidence). Unless the vast body of evidence required to be a theory is fairy dust and imagination, that is.

    52. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > It does not participate in electromagnetic interactions THAT WE CAN CURRENTLY DETECT FROM MANY LIGHT YEARS AWAY.

      What are you on about? There is no such thing as perfectly transparent ordinary matter that lets us see 10% of the galaxy but doesn't absorb the light emitted from the 10% or so of the galaxy that we can see.

      I'm literally dumbfounded at the comments. The GGP post says " All dark matter signifies is that there is a lot of stuff that we cannot currently see electromagnetically. Space is big. Space is dark". That doesn't explain what we're seeing at all.

    53. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know what black body radiation is you condescending little man. The point I was making is it's not just (dark stuff) that isn't emitting brightly enough to detect. Try reading what's in front of you.

    54. Re:Confirmed Existence? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      doesn't interact electromagnetically

      As far as we can tell from a looooong way away.
      It's like denying the front door exists after you've banged into it in the dark because you didn't bring a torch. It's there because you have run into it, you just don't have the equipment to see it just now.

    55. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Yes, but some matter can get very cold and become very dark, making it absorb visible light than it emits, making it a good source of blocking light, but not emitting. For example. There is a huge cloud of gas that is colder than the cosmic background. While it is absorbing light, it is also expanding, which cools it. The cooling from expansion is greater than heating from incoming radiation.

    56. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Bengie · · Score: 1

      I had to look up "Primordial black holes", and that's an interesting theory. These blackholes could actually pass through the Earth on a semi-regular basis.

      Nutshell: Blackholes that formed during the early Universe, allowing them to be much smaller because they did not have to form from a dying star. Think in the range of less than a Moon mass.

    57. Re:Confirmed Existence? by Goaway · · Score: 1

      Your description applies 100% to MOND, with the added disclaimer that it doesn't get the correct results.

  4. The Ring of Truth - Doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Vera was interviewed by Philip Morrison for his 1980s series _The Ring of Truth_ and talked about her observations of galaxies:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhfUfxeh9Lg

  5. Remember seeing her on one of the space programs.. by lkroll4565 · · Score: 1

    ....on the Science channels discussing her observation that the arms of Galaxies were going the same speed regardless of position from the center which could only be explained by concepts which eventually came to be known as dark matter. Sad to hear of her passing.

  6. Galaxy spin by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 2

    There is no experimental evidence for either dark matter or dark energy.

    Someday, maybe. But not today.

    We can measure the rotational velocity of galaxies by noting the red/blue shift of light from the opposite arms.

    We can estimate the normal matter by looking at the brightness and estimating the number of stars.

    When we do that, we find that galaxies rotate much faster than even the most optimistic estimates of their normal matter. They rotate so fast that they would literally fly apart if they only had mass from visible matter.

    One hypothesis is that the extra mass comes from matter that we can't see. There's so much of it needed that it can't interact with EM radiation in any way, otherwise we'd be able to see it directly.

    All other hypotheses to date have been disproved in one way or another. In particular, modifications to the law of gravity cannot account for the discrepancy.

    Dark matter is the most likely explanation.

    1. Re:Galaxy spin by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      I find the gravitational lensing that comes without detectable mass to be more convincing evidence, myself. Other theories of gravitational rotation can't explain the lensing. There's other evidence also.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    2. Re:Galaxy spin by Dread_ed · · Score: 2

      This is not as cut and dried as you might think. The link below describes how there is a 1 to 1 relationship between observed matter in a galaxy and rotation speed. No mystical and mysterious dark matter is needed to determine the rotation speed.

      Check out the link below:

      Case Western Reserve University

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    3. Re:Galaxy spin by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      So there's a galaxy without dark matter? Is this supposed to be a problem? It's probably interesting why it doesn't have significant dark matter, and a subject for study, but saying that this galaxy doesn't have dark matter is like saying there aren't any earthworms in my car. There are earthworms elsewhere in the neighborhood, and dark matter in other galaxies.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    4. Re: Galaxy spin by Demena · · Score: 2

      I do not think that MiHsC has been disproven. More and more of is predictions are being shown to be observationally correct. I think you might find it interesting to read Mike McCulloch's blog "Physics from the Edge". It is worth reading in its entirety in my not-so-humble opinion.

    5. Re:Galaxy spin by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      So you didn't read the link, or you didn't understand. Got it.

      Observable matter in galaxies corresponds to spin rate when using near infrared to determine the observable matter in a galaxy. Not in just one galaxy, but in all 153 that were observed in this study.

      Your earthworm analogy, a masterpiece of logic and pathos that will stand the test of ages, should be re-purposed to buttress a legitimate argument.

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    6. Re:Galaxy spin by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Guilty as charged of following Slashdot tradition. I replied to your summary.

      The link goes to a not-entirely-coherent account of researchers who have observations that show that, in a large sample of spiral and irregular galaxies, the rotation curves are explained by non-dark matter. That part is clear, and the reporter seems to have not understood what else the scientists said. Since this is a new result, not yet published, we'll have to see how it holds up to examination. In cases where new observations disagree with lots of older observations, we need to be cautious about drawing conclusions.

      It also doesn't explain the other things explained by dark matter, including gravitational lensing. Exactly what causes the lens around the Bullet Cluster? How does this compare to the theoretical limit of baryonic matter? Galactic rotation curves are not the strongest evidence for dark matter any more.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  7. Vera........ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Vera, vera, what has become of you?

    Does anybody else here feel the way I do?

  8. New theory of gravity by chefren · · Score: 2

    There is a recently published new theory of gravity that doesn't need dark matter to explain the movement of stars. It does on the other hand need Einstein to be wrong: http://earthsky.org/space/erik... The article has a link to the actual paper.

    1. Re:New theory of gravity by lkroll4565 · · Score: 2

      I've watched several videos about the Electric Universe theory, it does appear to explain a lot of Cosmological phenomena that Relativity does not and the additional handwaving (dark matter and dark energy) added, still doesn't quite do so either. It too requires Einstein to be wrong. :)

    2. Re:New theory of gravity by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I've watched several videos about the Electric Universe theory, it does appear to explain a lot of Cosmological phenomena that Relativity does not

      The next question is whether it explains all or most of the phenomena that General Relativity explains, and the next is whether it's compatible with quantum physics. Quantum mechanics and General Relativity are exceedingly successful theories that make a lot of amazingly exact predictions.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    3. Re:New theory of gravity by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Too bad them explains it in ways that have been tested to be false.

  9. Way to go slashdot!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're upholding the bar on accuracy like the dark matter that has been proven to exist.

  10. Commercial media more widely liked than science? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gosh, never would have thought THAT. It's so unlike reality, where scientists snort coke off hooker asses and show off their bling to the bitches....

    Yes, we get it, I even agree that science should be mode widely appreciated, and stories like this don't get the attention they deserve. BUT I DO *NOT* insist that somehow an actress is worthless because science isn't getting its deserved approval.

  11. Logic Fail by s.petry · · Score: 1

    By your same logic, it would be fine for someone to claim that an invisible entity sits in the clouds and hurls lighting down. Having an effect does not prove the cause, and Flat Earth should be all you need to study to see how massive amounts of Scientists got stuff wrong for centuries.

    Science _should_ welcome skepticism, yet when it comes to certain topics skepticism is shunned by a surprising number of people. That makes it a Religion, not Science.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    1. Re:Logic Fail by Wulf2k · · Score: 1

      > By your same logic, it would be fine for someone to claim that an invisible entity sits in the clouds and hurls lighting down

      Sure, claim it.

      Then somebody can look and tell you that no, you're wrong, and we can get back to discussing dark matter.

    2. Re:Logic Fail by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I pointed out the logic failure and gave the analogy. So not only are you sure you can somehow prove a negative, but demonstrate a belief that circular logic will make your position valid. Double fail.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    3. Re:Logic Fail by Wulf2k · · Score: 1

      I can prove a negative.

      Point a camera at the sky. A really fancy camera.

      Eventually it will capture lightning, and you'll see that nobody is there to throw it.

      We good?

    4. Re:Logic Fail by Demena · · Score: 1

      No. Logic fail. Your observation only tells you about one instance of an often occurring event. For your logic to work you would have to capture every event.

    5. Re:Logic Fail by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Certain types of skepticism is just irrationality. Your analogy is completely flawed. A better analogy would be taking a tank of compressed gas into space and finding it implodes instead of explodes, in a vacuum. Not only would it defy expectations, but it would defy all previously known theories in very fundamental ways. No analogy is perfect, but at least try to get the abstract concepts in the same ballpark.