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Work Emails After Hours Finally Banned in France (fortune.com)

Posted by EditorDavid on from the oui-oui dept.

An anonymous reader quotes Fortune: A new French law establishing workers' "right to disconnect" goes into effect today. The law requires companies with more than 50 employees to establish hours when staff should not send or answer emails. The goals of the law include making sure employees are fairly paid for work, and preventing burnout by protecting private time. French legislator Benoit Hamon, speaking to the BBC, described the law as an answer to the travails of employees who "leave the office, but they do not leave their work. They remain attached by a kind of electronic leash -- like a dog."
The BBC reports that France already has a 35-hour work week, while Fortune adds that many European companies have already taken steps to curtail after-work emails. "In 2012, Volkswagen blocked all emails to employees' Blackberries after-hours," and "Daimler took the step of deleting all emails received by employees while on vacation."

22 of 234 comments (clear)

  1. Sorely needed in the US by waspleg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    along with that 35 hour work week - without a pay reduction.

    I'm hourly and required to carry a work cellphone 24/7 despite not being paid to do so in any way (money/comp time/whatever).

    But the demonization of unions by big corporate money has been very successful in fucking shit like this up for the US.

    1. Re:Sorely needed in the US by Tablizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But the demonization of unions by big corporate money has been very successful in fucking shit like this up for the US.

      Well, it's a trade-off. In the US it's easier to have more and bigger "stuff", but we work harder and longer for it, not always by choice.

      --
      Table-ized A.I.
    2. Re:Sorely needed in the US by waspleg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm in IT and not a teacher and I work K-12 and in my (red) state the legislature completely gutted the teacher's unions but people think they're amazing and that teachers barely work get summers off and have hot tubs in the lounge; couldn't be further from the truth.

      The benefits get worse every year and it's standard operating procedure to keep people in fear for their jobs and to expect plenty of unpaid OT.

      Teachers get shit on and everyone who supports them gets shit on worse (except managers, of course). The only thing their union does at this point that's worth anything at all is maintains legal counsel and usually they're toothless since the laws are.

    3. Re:Sorely needed in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So you want to earn the same money for fewer hours? In what world is that fair to your employer?

      Don't want to carry the work phone, don't. If they fire you find a job with an employer that doesn't require it.
      A couple years back I was told I could no longer work from home (company was purchased, new policy). Okay but I work 7:30 to 4:30. I do not check email after that time and will attend one evening meeting a week. Given I'm part of a team that is spread overseas that did actually matter and I work less now. Didn't get fired and am still working 7:30 to 4:30.

      This is not something that requires laws. If you do not want to be tied to your work phone at all hours, don't do it.

    4. Re:Sorely needed in the US by waspleg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Their work is dealing with your shitty kids. Some are glorified babysitters and they're scared to do anything because the law favors the kids and the kids know it and most of those shitty kids are shitty because their parents are worse.

      Good teachers are doing lesson plans long in to their personal time and doing shit for their classes while "off" over the summer. I've seen many pay for basic school supplies for kids in their classes out of their own pockets because the kid's shitty parents won't or can't.

      I suggest you actually go to the school and see how it is before judging from across the street. If you're in an affluent area it's a different set of problems but still a shit load of work dealing with helicopter soccer moms.

      They couldn't pay me enough to be a teacher. I've been in enough classrooms to know I'd go to jail, my patience and temper aren't suited for it.

    5. Re:Sorely needed in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you understood how life actually is in France... US salaries for technical fields are nearly double those in France, for one. Having lived and worked in both, I'd caution you to not fetishize the European lifestyle... one's not better than the other, they're just different, based on very different cultures.

      There's a good book some years back from some Canadian journalists who lived in France for a while... the main point being, since the US/Canadian and French demographics are relatively similar, both in the West, you might think that the cultures are similar, but this is not at all true. The French are no more similar to Americans than people in Thailand.

    6. Re:Sorely needed in the US by youngone · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The demonization of the Unions has been hugely successful where I live also, begun largely by a small number of influential journalists in the 1980s.

      The factory workers where I work stayed united and never lost any of their benefits. The non-union office people moan and whinge about all the "perks" they get, I say good on them.

      Company profit last year? Approx $16 billion.

    7. Re:Sorely needed in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So you want to earn the same money for fewer hours? In what world is that fair to your employer?

      In the same one that says anything over 40 hours is overtime? At some level we've come to realize that we should work to live, not live to work. So if we decide that 35 hours is a reasonable upper limit on hours, even possible to the point of removing the option of overtime, so be it. With all the discussion of increased automation, we shouldn't be making moves towards greater overtime and yet that seems the major push for a lot of places because it's easier for them to pay more than to deal with more regular employees.

      Seriously, the only "unfair" thing is if an employer is given no notice or the rules quickly and frequently change. A lot like employees already suffer from employers who quickly go from voluntary to mandatory overtime. Employers, of all people, should recognize "this is business" and just deal with it. Very few employers, by comparison, are as forgiving about the fairness or needs of their employees.

      This is not something that requires laws. If you do not want to be tied to your work phone at all hours, don't do it.

      And if employers don't want to abide by the laws of their country, they can just not do it. Given that employers have much more power over their employees than the reverse, it's a necessity that laws enforce working conditions. Some people will be unhappy because they'd prefer to be on-call because it excludes others from employment there. Well, sucks to be them.

  2. Cue the incredulous comments from the Americans... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    "What?.....but..what?...how can this be? If they don't answer emails at 1am then the Boss will be angry and they will have demonstrated they hold no love for their Company and are not filled full of Corporate zeal! They'll be downsized ! They'll lose everything ! If they get sick their entire immediate family will be bankrupted! Please, please, pray to Dear Corporate Leader that this doesn't happen in God's Own USA !"

    *heads asplode*

  3. Re:More time for TV by waspleg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The problem is it becomes expected that you be working/in touch 24/7.

  4. Re:Good luck getting contracts! by ffkom · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If your selection criterion for whom to contract with is their desperateness to get a contract no matter under what conditions, then chances are you'll contract with the worst botchers amongst their profession. Those who are competent have no need to ruin their private lives by being available for you 24/7.

  5. Re:More time for TV by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I hate receiving emails because I'm lazy and incompetent.

    Fixed that for you.

    I was calling for this, so you nailed it :) But seriously - not wanting to work on weekends when my contract is for a 40h week is not lazy nor incompetent. Everyone looses if we all compete in this game except for the company shareholders.

  6. Re:More time for TV by Luthair · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't work for free because I'm not a slave.

    Fixed that for you.

  7. Re:No surprises here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Work has never been popular in France.

    Slave work has never been popular in France.

  8. Re:Good luck getting contracts! by SirSlud · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Companies who give a shit about their customers and their employees can have enough people not to require people to be available 24/7. Note how this only applies to companies over 50 people. If you do business with people, your comment doesn't apply. If you do business with companies, nothing prevents a larger sized company from being available 24/7 without their employees being available 24/7.

    Anyhow, what the OP says is mostly true. The minimum is doing no work. The maximum is being "at work" every minute you're awake. It's amusingly naive to believe that those who make themselves available all of the time are inherently better at what they do, or are more valuable. Anybody with a decent amount of experience in life and exposure to different working environments and disciplines knows this.

    --
    "Old man yells at systemd"
  9. Re:Good luck getting contracts! by hey! · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've had clients like you who felt they should be able to buttonhole my developers whenever they had a brainwave. As far as I'm concerned people like you can find yourselves another victim to work out your personal dominance issues. Hire me and I'll do a great job for you, because I know how to manage a friggin' development team. You don't.

    The seldom-mentioned corrollary to "the customer is always right" is that you should be picky about who you work for, if you can manage it. I almost said "if you can afford it", but really the question is actually whether you can afford to work for an obstreperous, intrusive client who doesn't understand boundaries. Customers like that will eat up your slack then bleed you dry every... single... time.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  10. Re:Good luck getting contracts! by Dunbal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Those who give a shit about their customers and try to do their very best for them DO make themselves available 24/7. These are the people I will do business with. In my experience, the most important selection criteria for anything is the quality of the product itself, and the second close behind is the type of support you'll receive.

    Of course usually you expect to pay premium price for premium service. In MY experience, the world is full of shitstains who want 24/7 availability but don't want to pay for it.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  11. Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A better analogy is that Americans keep buying lottery tickets because they believe they will win, while French people understand they will not win at a tricked game and keep their money.

  12. Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You keep insulting me, the customer. I will not be doing business with you and will slander your name.

    Dickhead clients will slander you anyway because they use up all your reasonableness until you have to put your foot down, usually in the middle of a big mess they've created. You will always be the villain, but keep the story small and it'll soon be replaced by lamenting their next "useless" contractors.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  13. Re: Good luck getting contracts! by hey! · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I actually feel sorry for clients like that -- although preferably from a safe distance. The thing is what they're up to isn't business, it's working out their intractable personal issues. What they need is not a vendor, it's a therapist.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  14. Re: Good luck getting contracts! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What these policies are accomplishing is to get the entrepreneurs to leave France for other countries.

    I live in San Jose, California, and I know four French tech entrepreneurs just in my neighborhood. All of them left France with the goal of starting a company here.

    Now, you might argue (as many in France do) that quality of life is more important than money.

    Having plenty of leisure time is not as important to quality of life as having a job. Unemployment in France is over 10%, twice the American level, and youth employment is over 25%. They are funding their budget deficits by borrowing from the Germans, and that is not sustainable. They are demanding more and more benefits without being able to pay for those they already have.

    Oh, and one other thing: California wine is better too.

  15. Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Lennie · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why is the number of millionaires a good measurement ?

    How about quality of life, longer life and overall higher standard of living, good education, less stress, easier to get healthcare, etc. ?

    --
    New things are always on the horizon