Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

How A Professional Poker Player Conned a Casino Out of $9.6 Million (washingtonpost.com)

Posted by EditorDavid on from the marking-the-cards dept.

Phil Ivey is a professional poker player who's won ten World Series of Poker bracelets -- but he's also got a new game. An anonymous reader write: In 2012, Ivey requested that the Borgata casino let him play baccarat with an assistant named Cheng Yin Sun while using a specific brand of playing cards -- purple Gemaco Borgata playing cards -- and an automatic shuffler. He then proceeded to win $9.6 million over four visits. The pair would rotate certain cards 180 degrees, which allowed them to recognize those cards the next time they passed through the deck. (They were exploiting a minute lack of a symmetry in the pattern on the backs of the cards...)

But last month a U.S. district judge ruled that Ivey and his partner had a "mutual obligation" to the casino, in which their "primary obligation" was to not use cards whose values would be known to them -- and ordered them to return the $9.6 million [PDF]. "What this ruling says is a player is prohibited from combining his skill and intellect and visual acuity to beat the casino at its own game," Ivey's attorney told the AP, adding that the judge's ruling will be appealed.
The judge also ruled Ivey had to return the money he later won playing craps with his winnings from the baccarat game -- though the judge denied the casino's request for restitution over the additional $250,000 worth of goods and services they'd "comped" Ivey during his stay.

29 of 406 comments (clear)

  1. Remember kids! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Only the casinos are allowed to cheat you out of your money!

    1. Re:Remember kids! by Sarten-X · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It depends on your definition of "winning".

      If you are entertained by playing games of chance, the small percentage the house takes is your bill for the night's entertainment. Everybody knows the deal going in.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    2. Re: Remember kids! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      They are not rigged. It's a tax on those with poor reasoning skills. Twenty some odd years ago I worked as a dealer in a casino. One night this really drunk guy swore the big six wheel was being stopped by the carpeted box under the table. Security handed him the box and kicked him out the front door.

    3. Re:Remember kids! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The games are mathematically in the house's favor...is that what you consider rigged? The odds are known for anyone who cares to look.

      A casino wouldn't dare rig a table to make sure they win, if they got caught they would lose their gambling license. And, considering the amount of underpaid workers that roll through casinos, one of them would inevitably rat them out.

      Personally I think Ivey should keep the money here, but he was an idiot about it. Had he done it just once he would have gotten away with it, but he dug too deep like the dwarves of Moria.

    4. Re:Remember kids! by haruchai · · Score: 4, Informative

      "They don't have to cheat to make lots of money"
      But they go to great lengths to prevent card counters from playing or where they're prevented by law from banning them, they harass or physically threaten them

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    5. Re:Remember kids! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Everybody knows the deal going in.
      Sort of. Some people think they're "lucky", or have a gambling addiction. Casinos know this and actively try to exploit this (very real) weakness in humans. The casino is using its intelligence to maximize the profits, and exploit a property it's noticed about players. They'll go as far as call up people (often problem gamblers) to encourage them to come to the casino through comps, etc. This isn't a secret, and it genuinely ruins peoples lives. Real harm is done here. What if your bartender called an alcoholic patron he hadn't seen in a while and asked them to come on down to the bar for free drinks on him?

      When a person does the same thing and exploits a weakness in its system (that was NOT ruled to be illegal) it's considered wrong? Turnabout is fair play.

    6. Re:Remember kids! by alvinrod · · Score: 5, Informative

      The house doesn't cheat. It plays by a set of rules that mathematically work out in its favor. It tells you this up front. The closest thing the house does to cheating is having a house limit.

    7. Re:Remember kids! by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 4, Funny

      I once went to LV and came back with 10x more than I took. It was the only time I've been there and no desire to go back

      Same thing happened to me, Shit, I was on intravenous antibiotics for a month, my dick nearly fell off. Never going back there again.

    8. Re:Remember kids! by AK+Marc · · Score: 5, Informative

      The slots are rigged. They appear "random". They are not. They are programmed to show a near-jackpot for every loss. This tricks the human brain into thinking they are doing better than they are. If they literally displayed a random result, they'd be legit. But the outcome is statistically determined, and the losses are deliberately rigged to show a near-jackpot to trick people into playing more.

      If casinos weren't cheating, they'd actually display random results for every win and loss. They don't. They are cheating, and they know it. They cheat as much as allowed by law. That it's legal cheating doesn't make it non-cheating.

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
    9. Re:Remember kids! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Unless your name is Donald J. Trump

      So let me get this right? Realizing the great damage gambling causes poor families, Trump, out of the kindness of his heart, took over some casinos to put them out of business for the greater public good and at considerable personal loss I might add ... And this is the thanks he gets from you libtards? I can only imagine how ungrateful you're gonna be once he makes America great again!

    10. Re:Remember kids! by TapeCutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Turnabout is fair play.

      Two wrongs don't make a right. Marked cards are cheating, period. He knew it was cheating and is only sorry he got caught.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    11. Re: Remember kids! by Nkwe · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Nope. It's actually rigged. Watch the slots.

      Modern slot machines don't use the mechanics of the spinning wheels to decide if you win or lose. When you pull the lever (or push the button) the computer generates a random number and decides immediately if you are going to win or lose. The spinning wheels are just a display or a user interface to indicate the result to you. Where the wheels are going to stop is decided by the computer before they even start spinning. Yes, when the computer has decided that you are going to lose, it will spin the wheels and stop them so it looks like you were going win - it's part of the psychology of the game. Is it psychologically rigged, yes. Is it mathematically rigged, no.

    12. Re:Remember kids! by Hognoxious · · Score: 5, Funny

      I went there in a $20,000 dollar car. I came home on a $300,000 bus.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    13. Re: Remember kids! by advocate_one · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Is it psychologically rigged, yes. Is it mathematically rigged, no.

      but it's amazing the number of times they cheat people out of big jackpots by declaring that the machine had malfunctioned...

      https://newsone.com/3578167/ca...

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
  2. He cheated OTHER players by gurps_npc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When you play baccarat, you are playing against other customers, never the Casino's money.

    Did the casino return the money to the other PLAYERS he cheated?

    Or did they simply keep the ill-gotten gains?

    Also, he deserved to keep the money he won in other games. That was bull. Money is fungible, he made those bets and won.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re: He cheated OTHER players by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The players cheated.

      They did not mark any cards, they noticed a flaw that could be used as a mark. No rule of the casino was broken, they're nullifying it because state law says the presence of marked cards means the game is not lawfully played and thus void regardless of whose fault that is. But this means that all games played with this deck should be declared void, every win and every loss. Otherwise you're saying the casino can write the values on the back of the card, they win it was a fair game but you win and they call foul. So I'm actually with Ivey on this one, he's played with the same deck under the same rules as other players but they're cancelling just his games because he won. That's not a legally sound reasoning.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:He cheated OTHER players by gravewax · · Score: 5, Informative

      When you play baccarat, you are playing against other customers, never the Casino's money.

      Did the casino return the money to the other PLAYERS he cheated?

      Or did they simply keep the ill-gotten gains?

      Also, he deserved to keep the money he won in other games. That was bull. Money is fungible, he made those bets and won.

      incorrect, there are multiple variants of Baccarat including ones where you are playing against the house

    3. Re: He cheated OTHER players by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No rule of the casino was broken, they're nullifying it because state law says the presence of marked cards means the game is not lawfully played and thus void regardless of whose fault that is.

      Exactly. A lot of people posting here are missing the legal reasoning of the ruling, which is NOT based on the fact that these two guys acted fraudulently, but rather the fact that the game was VOID from the start because it did not conform to the rules for LEGAL gambling and gaming under state law.

      But there's something very odd about using that reasoning in this case, because the casino explicitly agreed to the terms of these guys -- including offering a specific card deck, instructing the dealer to turn cards based on player's instructions, instructing the dealer NOT to disturb card rotation prior to reshuffles, etc. That all is suspicious enough, and casinos generally do NOT allow players to dictate that many rules to avoid PRECISELY these kinds of problems. I'd imagine the only reason they allowed it in this case is because they hoped to sucker more money out of a high profile gambler. Unfortunately, their strategy of offering a MODIFIED GAME failed when it was they who were suckered out of money.

      But why does the fault then fall only on the players? From the ruling conclusion:

      As we previously found, by their own design, Ivey and Sun played games at Borgata that violated important provisions of the CCA and thereby breached their agreement with the casino. They must disgorge the benefit they received as a direct result of the breached contract

      Yes, "Ivey and Sun played games" but the casino offered the marked deck and agreed to numerous manipulations that ultimately modified the odds. If this was indeed an "illegal game" under state law, why is the casino not culpable, at least for negligence for failing to adhere to reasonable gaming standards and thereby offering illegal gaming? If a private person ran a flawed game like this, they'd likely end up fined or even in prison. And likely any money transferred during illegal gaming would be confiscated.

      I'm fine if the casino wants to argue that it engaged in offering an illegal game, but by doing so, they should submit to being punished according to provisions for offering illegal gaming in their state (including government confiscation of winnings). But if they don't want to argue they were engaging in illegal gaming by THEMSELVES offering marked cards, etc., then they'll likely just have to admit they were fools and just live with banning these people from their casino in the future, rather than recovering money. Or, they could actually prove the defendants committed FRAUD in some way to void the contract. (And maybe there is enough evidence to support that; I don't know. But it's not the legal reasoning used here.) The way the case was decided is not very consistent legally.

  3. I get this... by Ecuador · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ok, I get this particular instance, it is sort of "cheating", but I still cannot get over how you are somehow not allowed to USE YOUR BRAIN to count cards in order to win in a casino. Yes, I know it is not illegal to count cards (I mean how would someone go around proving it beyond reasonable doubt), but casinos (except in NJ) are allowed to ban players who can win, which is mostly the same thing.
    Anyway, I try not to think about it too much (to avoid having my brain explode), and I just enjoy going to Las Vegas, with the inexpensive luxurious hotels, nice buffets, shows etc and before I leave I try to do my part sustaining the system by dropping a quarter in a slot machine ;)

    --
    Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    1. Re:I get this... by dbIII · · Score: 4, Insightful

      but I still cannot get over how you are somehow not allowed to USE YOUR BRAIN to count cards in order to win in a casino

      Sadly the rule "only the house is allowed to get ahead because they pay shitloads in taxes and you rubes don't" is enforced by the governments that get money this way. Breaking that rule by using your brain to take advantage of an edge case violates that rule.
      Unfair, but deep down did you every really think it was supposed to be fair?

  4. Fake news != Flawed news by ClickOnThis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The term "fake news" has been thrown about -- and misapplied -- far too freely of late.

    Fake news is a deliberate fiction on the part of the writer, with an intent to deceive.

    It is not the same as a news story reported in good faith, but with errors.

    And BTW, it doesn't matter that it was the dealer who was rotating the cards, not the players. The players tricked the dealer into rotating them so as to change the odds of the game. You can't do that.

    --
    If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    1. Re:Fake news != Flawed news by thewolfkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The term "fake news" has been thrown about -- and misapplied -- far too freely of late.

      Fake news is a deliberate fiction on the part of the writer, with an intent to deceive.

      It is not the same as a news story reported in good faith, but with errors.

      And BTW, it doesn't matter that it was the dealer who was rotating the cards, not the players. The players tricked the dealer into rotating them so as to change the odds of the game. You can't do that.

      Actually you can it's quite common in the game for players to have superstitions like this. Rotating certain cards for some mystical/superstitious benefit. The players asked the Casino if they could use this special brand of cards and the Casino agreed. The players asked the Casino if they could rotate the cards and they agreed. The casino got played. They didn't trick anyone, the casino shouldn't have agreed to that brand of cards being used without verifying that they were symmetrical.

      They assumed no one could tell the cards apart and that's on them.

      --
      Just another second banana
  5. Its not cheating by drnb · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Remember kids! Only the casinos are allowed to cheat you out of your money!

    Its not cheating you out of anything when you ignore the fact that the statistical probabilities are against you. As my statistics 101 professor explained (literally, he used casino games examples all the time) you are either:

    (1) Paying the "I didn't pay attention in math class" tax.
    or
    (2) Paying someone else to play cards with you.

    1. Re:Its not cheating by St.Creed · · Score: 4, Informative

      Using marked cards is cheating, but it's also against the law. Any contract you may sign is void when the deal is illegal under current law. If the casino wasn't told upfront the cards were marked, it would also void the contract even if the law didn't make it illegal to use marked cards in the first place, because the casino would never have gone through with it if they had known upfront.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
  6. From the Story by crackspackle · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What I'd like to know is how did his partner get sent to jail for an MGM gambling debt? Anyone know? While looking for the answer, I did come across this interesting article about advantage players, that there are many, that the casinos know of them and don't call them cheaters because what they are doing is legal.

  7. Mutual Obligation by PPH · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't understand exactly how they violated any 'mutual obligation'. Ivey and Cheng made certain requests of the casino about how they would like to play. The casino agreed to their terms. Granted, Ivey and Cheng had some knowledge that the casino was not privy to, specifically the asymmetrical pattern on the cards. But this was something that the casino should have known (casinos provide the cards). Ivey and Cheng made no attempt to conceal anything from the casino.

    If I engaged in some game with an opponent and I had a better understanding of the mechanics and probabilities than they did, would I be cheating? Would I be under some obligation to explain a playing or betting system that I had developed to my competition?

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  8. FFS, I know exactly what was done... by DeafDumbBlind · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I get how edge sorting (the name of the technique used) works. It's been a known advantage play move for decades and explanation of this exploit has been in print both in advantage play (Abram's casino tactics book) and casino game protection literature(Steve Forte's book). Shame on paid casino managers/executives for not being aware of it.

    It's not illegal to use marked cards if neither you nor a compatriot marked the cards. Look up the case law if you don't believe me. If someone accidentally bends a corner of a card, you don't have to pretend not to notice; you can legally use that info as long as you didn't do it yourself and the guy didn't do it for your benefit.

    I've made the point in other posts, but it's the casino's responsibility to protect their games. The casino provided the cards, the casino trained dealer rotated the cards thus allowing edge sorting to be used, the pit personnel and surveillance observed this, and had no problems with it. Ivy and his partner never touched the cards and didn't alter the cards in any way. This was a social engineering attack on a casino's greed and incompetence, but it was not cheating.

    This was a horrible decision by the judge.

     

    --


    Jesus used to be my co-pilot, but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him.
  9. Re:They agreed to the cards by gravewax · · Score: 4, Insightful

    actually no because there is an overarching agreement that both parties are bound too which cannot be changed through agreements between the players and casino and those are the gaming regulations (Casino Control Act) which explicitly forbid the use of marked cards which Ivey has tricked the Casino into using and hence by doing so made the game invalid/illegal. Love to see Casino's get screwed but seems reversing it is the right decision as Ivey broke the gaming regulations by cheating.

  10. Re:They agreed to the cards by bickerdyke · · Score: 4, Informative

    Marked cards are cards that allow you to distinguish different cards (or here: different card orientations) without seeing their front side. It is of no importance if these marks where printed in the factory or added manually to an originally unmarked set.

    You can buy marked cards in any magicians store that are specifically designed to be marked and are in no way tampered with.

    --
    bickerdyke