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Oculus Accused of Destroying Evidence, Zuckerberg To Testify In $2 Billion Lawsuit (arstechnica.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: ZeniMax Media, the parent company of both Bethesda Softworks and Id Software, says it will prove at trial that John Carmack and others at Oculus stole trade secrets to "misappropriate" virtual reality technology that was first developed while Carmack was working at Id Software. What's more, ZeniMax is now accusing Oculus of "intentional destruction of evidence to cover up their wrongdoing." Mark Zuckerberg, CEO of Oculus parent company Facebook, is scheduled to respond to those accusations in testimony starting tomorrow, according to a report by Business insider. ZeniMax's statement comes after Carmack testified at trial last week, saying the case was "ridiculous and absurd." His testimony echoed Oculus' initial reaction when ZeniMax's accusations first surfaced in 2014. In court filings leading up to the trial, ZeniMax detailed its case that Carmack, while still an employee at Id Software, "designed the specifications and functionality embodied in the Rift SDK and directed its development." Carmack's technology and guidance allegedly "literally transformed" Oculus founder Palmer Luckey's early Rift prototype from a "primitive virtual reality headset" that was "little more than a display panel." Carmack allegedly used "copyrighted computer code, trade secret information, and technical know-how" from his time at ZeniMax after he moved to Oculus as CTO in 2013. As the trial began last week (as reported by a Law360 summary, registration required), Carmack told the court of his development of a virtual reality demo for Doom 3 in 2012 and his search for a VR headset that would be suitable to run it. That's when he says he got in touch with Luckey, leading to the now legendary E3 2012 demo that introduced Oculus to the public. ZeniMax is seeking $2 billion in damage, which matches the value that Facebook paid for Oculus in 2014. The trial is expected to last three weeks.
Seems that you've got the reading down, but your comprehension could use a little work.
Apart from the specific facts of what happened while Carmack was working on VR at Id Software.
It often happens that an employee starts investigating new technology that may not be directly tied to the company's existing products or plans. Typically, the employee will give demos and talks to management and other company employees, but the managers have a decision to make. It's one thing to allow one employee to go off on his own for six months looking into something which might be a breakthrough. It's another thing to assign a team of engineers, including management, marketing, UX and graphics, test, documentation, sysadmin, etc. and capital resources needed to bring the engineer's ideas to fruition. And all the while, there are corporate politics going on, with the "stock" of managers and engineers rising and falling in the firm. And people leave the company for better pastures.
If the company signs off on the project and says "Let's go!" then, great, chances are the engineer will hunker down and spend at least the next year or two trying to get the now fledgling project off the ground. But what if management balks, or worse, if they assign a manager who has very different ideas about what to do with the technology, and/or who should be the lead engineer? Certainly, the company has paid for the specs, drawings, prototypes and code that the engineer has developed to date, and properly owns them outright. But do they own what's in the engineer's head? Could HP's lawyers have gone after Stephen Wozniak in the '70s after Apple came out with a hit product?
None of the entertaining quotes from Carmack?
One line of questioning asked whether Carmack knew about a âoesecret meetingâ in a hotel room with Oculus co-founders Nate Mitchell and Palmer Luckey, to which Carmack responded âoeNo I didnâ(TM)t, it was a secret.â A MacBook was brought up during questioning as well, with the lawyer asking why it was never wiped, with Carmack responding: âoeI am not a Mac user unless under duress.â
http://uploadvr.com/john-carma...
ZeniMax is seeking $2 billion in damage, which matches the value that Facebook paid for Oculus in 2014. The trial is expected to last three weeks.
If the Instagram and Whatsapp overtures are taken into account, that could loosely translate into tens of dollars.
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The Social Network 2:
Zuckerberg Gets Deposed About a Bunch More Shit
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I don't see this at all, and you're being a bit hyperbolic.
A company has a right to hire people to write software that belongs to said company...that's a thing that exists and it's not "slavery".
It seems like you're arguing that a comic character created by an artist for DC while working at DC isn't DC's IP and that character goes with the creator wherever they may work, which is just ridiculous.
I can't say the claims have merit, but you're saying it's *impossible* for them to have merit and that's just not so...
Thank you Dave Raggett
good point...
I mean, we'd have to basically see the code to really judge for ourselves, but it certainly sounds plausible.
Thank you Dave Raggett
Doesn't need to steal shit.
Funny you say that, because he actually did steal some shit back in his youth. Obviously that was a long time ago and not very relevant anymore, but those Apple IIs disprove your theory.
They better have real evidence. If you filled a 100ft by 100ft room full of the smartest people on earth- Carmack would be in the room. That's big game hunting.
You don't sue a person like that- you make a deal. Because he doesn't need to win- it was his brain. He already won.
Another consultant who stuck it out.
"We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx..."
Occulus has always been more about hype than actual tech.
Brilliant idea for an April Fools' Day joke article! Company DingDong sues Company SingSong for stealing their hype.
. . . and they stole half a jar of Mojo, as well!
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
the lawsuit is about IP...and it looks plausible at least
but yeah, I'd love to see a company sue over stealing hype...good lord...can you imagine the testimony about "value" from "social media"?
Thank you Dave Raggett
Palmer Luckey wasn't a "tech innovator"...he was a rich geek who frequented VR modding message boards, and just like everyone else took a smartphone screen and hooked it to community-made VR software
And stuck some slightly whacky lenses in front of the screen. That's what mostly nobody else was doing. He was (and presumably is) convinced that field of view mattered a lot more than most VR was willing to admit. And since he couldn't curve the screen itself, he found a way to make the light curve instead. Very few people were willing to acknowledge that FOV was important, even within that same community he was frequenting. Plenty of people argued with him, probably including you, complaining that human FOV is actually quite narrow, and all of that. And he said yes, that's why the lenses are the shape they are, and why it's ok for the outer edges to have an effectively lower pixel density. And Slashdot loved him. Plenty of people self-reported pledging to his Kickstarter, and quite a few Slashdot denizens have Rift Dev Kits as a result.
Oculus in general and Palmer Luckey in particular only became persona non grata around here when Facebook offered him stupid money and he accepted. It was stupid money. Of course he said yes. He's not dumb like Yahoo. He was a tech innovator who knew when to say yes.
Carmack was working on VR shit that directly went over with him to Oculus on ZeniMax's time and dime.
I strongly doubt it. John Carmack was working on experiments and prototypes. He had an old high speed CRT and a high speed camera, among other things. Yes, he was working with them on ZeniMax's time and dime. With their knowledge and explicit permission. We all knew about it. I'm betting he has it in writing. But having conducted those experiments, he was done with that stuff, hardware and software. He had learned what he needed to know, so he didn't need to drag all that crap with him when he went to Oculus.
This has everything to do with when and where Carmack wrote the code for the Rift I think. I am pretty sure Carmack did not have the standard agreement that most of us get when we work for a big company. idsoftware was bought by Zenimax and Carmack came along with it, but even lots of tech companies the head guy might have a very special agreement different than others in the company. Carmack worked of Aerospace and other things on the side not owned by Zenimax at all. As long as he was good at keeping these things seperate, he might have some wording in his contract that will be on his side.
yes this is certainly possible...might go down to what contract has precedence when there are conflicting contracts that overlap...
Thank you Dave Raggett
>Carmack is also noted for his generous contributions to charities and gaming communities. Some of the recipients of Carmack's charitable contributions include his former high school, promoters of open source software, opponents of software patents, and game enthusiasts. In 1997, he gave away one of his Ferraris (a 328 model) as a prize to Dennis Fong, the winner of the Quake tournament "Red Annihilation".[20]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Don't forget he was the primary shareholder of id software before zenimax bought it. He probably didn't have a normal contract.
... and if by some miracle it survives and thrives, then try to grab what you think you can.
Rift lenses are just slightly better versions of the lenses that were in the VFX1 in 1995. FOV is better, but not night and day.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
John Carmack was simultaneously working for Oculus, ID Software, and not mentioned at all here is Armadillo Aerospace where he was even doing NASA contracts all at the same time. Trying to be Buckaroo Bonzai by doing everything at once is more than most normal people could do. It was about the time Zenimax took over ID Software that John Carmack wanted to continue doing this sort of multi-tasking, but they insisted he decide who he was going to work for exclusively.... and he told them to go take a hike.
If you are an engineering who is moonlighting on multiple side projects, it can definitely get a little bit fuzzy about what stuff you develop on your own time vs. what you develop for your employer. In Carmack's case, the previous management was a whole lot more open to him pretty much doing as much as he wanted to do and however he wanted to do it as long as they got a piece of the action. ID Software got the better end of the bargain in that situation and made a whole bunch of money off of the work that John Carmack was able to perform on their behalf.
That these asshats tried to kill the goose that laid golden eggs... is what they are pissed about. Even more because that goose flew away rather than them getting to eat goose for dinner and laid some golden eggs for somebody else instead that made billions of dollars for those investors.
But if Carmack wrote code on a computer owned by id software, powered by electricity paid for by id software, in an office rented by id software, while sitting on a chair paid for by id software, with a salary paid for by id software.... come on, we all know how this works. Guess who owns the code.
If zenimax had a contract that let them win this case they wouldn't be talking about everything but the contract. This is nothing but a legal attempt at extortion becuase Carmac quit after they bought ID.
Carmack admitted to copying thousands of e-mails to a personal hard drive on his last day working for ZeniMax
oops
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/...
But if Carmack wrote code on a computer owned by id software, powered by electricity paid for by id software, in an office rented by id software, while sitting on a chair paid for by id software, with a salary paid for by id software.... come on, we all know how this works. Guess who owns the code.
A company with a mailbox in the Eastern District of Texas.
Excuse me, you posted something earlier about bushings. Are you selling them still?
Ironically, they turned out to be Hillary Clinton's.
Inheritance is the sincerest form of nepotism.
If he had it in writing, this wouldn't be a lawsuit. Zenimax wouldn't make the very specific claims that they've made now, unless they felt like they had pretty rock solid evidence. When you're dealing with a more "he said, she said" legal tiff, the plaintiffs usually use language that gives the defendant an out. "We believe" or "It appears" or "we suspect" and "may" would show up in the accusations. That way, the defendant has an easier time publicity-wise saying "Whoops, someone goofed. Here's some money."
In this case, Zenimax is being very, very specific and has been from the start. They say Carmack took files from Zenimax owned systems and that is the *biggest* no-no in the book. It's entirely likely that Zenimax knew he was collaborating with Oculus and was fine with it, but that they didn't want anything Carmack did while working for them to *officially* become Oculus IP. And then, Carmack not only leaves, but if he took things *with* him, that's a pretty severe case of IP theft. Even if none of that code actually got directly used in Oculus products, if it was used as a basis for any component required by Oculus that Carmack had a hand in generating while he was at Zenimax, he's fucked himself.
The only way for Carmack to have done things cleanly was to have absolutely no possible hint that he would have done what Zenimax is claiming he did so he could claim that he used knowledge in his head but *not* anything produced while working for Zenimax beyond that. And if Zenimax is telling the truth, he fucked up that *one* job.
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
Actually, with Zenimax talking about him taking actual data from Zenimax servers, you're right. This isn't about a contract dispute. It's about corporate espionage and theft, which is actually a much harder fight to win if you're just pissed off at an ex-employee. And if he took a single file from Zenimax-owned hardware, or a single piece of paper from his desk and his contract did not *specifically* say "You can take any IP regarding VR with you." he's committed IP theft. The only question is to what degree, and Zenimax seems to think that it was important enough to be worth the whole company (at least, before the inevitable negotiation for a settlement).
But interestingly, Zenimax doesn't seem to be positioning themselves for a quick settlement. They're aiming very, very high. This isn't true patent troll behavior, it's not even jilted lover behavior. This is "We got fucking robbed." behavior. They claim they have evidence that he took files on his way out the door, and then tried to cover it up by destroying said evidence. This is a very, very ugly accusation to make. It's the kind of thing you hold back in reserve in order to try and push for a settlement if you're willing to accept STFU money. They didn't hold back.
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
Quote: "Carmack allegedly used '[...] technical know-how'"
OMG, wait, OOOOMMMMFFFFGGGG!!!!
Seriously, were they expecting Carmack to be brainwashed so he couldn't use anything he has learnt?
Quote: "It seems like you're arguing that a comic character created by an artist for DC while working at DC isn't DC's IP and that character goes with the creator wherever they may work, which is just ridiculous."
Answer: No, it's not ridiculous. It's a right. The character's owner is the artist. The same way if J. K. Rowling wants to publish next Harry Potter character book on another publishing company. It's her creation same as the artist' comic character.
Another thing is that DC (& the rest))/MPAA/RIA and the rest of the comic publishers are just ********* stealing the work of creators.
Id Software hasn't made 2billion in it's lifetime. Yet Zenimax is asking for 2billion for a little piece of code that Carmack wrote while still being employed at Id Software. This company is bad.
I suspect that what Zenimax is talking about isn't limited to code, but also is likely including R&D resources like latency research and rendering schemes to reduce the negative reactions people can have to VR. (Complete wild-ass guess on my part) Really, the only thing Carmack was entitled to when he walked out the door - barring any kind of written agreement to other effect - was the knowledge in his head.
Carmack's brilliant, but I suspect he fucked up and took a shortcut possibly with the mindset "Well, I remember all this anyhow so it's not like I don't *know* it, this just makes it easier to share!"
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
You are conflating a created thing versus knowing how to create the thing (as well as patent-able designs vs copyright). A created work belongs to the company that paid you to create it (like a comic book character) (and BTW is also protected by copyright). To use your analogy, Zenimax is suing because the guy learned how to create a comic book character (at least some kind of prototype of a character) while working with them, then they canned his project so he left and created a different comic book character at a different company. Both comic book characters are heroes with powers and they swoop in to save the day very dramatically, therefore their ex employee must have stolen the "specs" for the comic book character that he subsequently helped create with his new company. If they actually had a claim they would be suing for patent violation, because when you have a physical product, you get patents to protect yourself from this exact thing. But they don't have patents because this was just an initial investigation and they decided not to pursue it at the time.
If this was any other topic but VR and software, they would be laughed out of court, but because the technology is not well understood by the layman, they can get away with at least not having the suit dismissed with prejudice 2 minutes after filing. Oculus best course here is to dig up an engineer from the 80s or 90s to show that the research that Zenimax was doing was neither novel or original and then counter sue for damages, libel etc. VR is not a new concept, the issue has always been getting a high enough resolution and frame rate that it doesn't look like total garbage. I had a VR headset in the 90s, it was called the virtual boy...
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That completely depends on the content of the emails and the details of his contract (or lack thereof) with Zenimax.
If you disagree, please post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like
Just working on a similar concept at company A and company B is not enough. Coming up with some specs at company A is sure as shit not enough. Unless they can show that he copied CAD or code onto a thumb drive that was subsequently incorporated exactly as is into Oculus, they don't have a case.
What most likely happened is the board of directors at Zenimax shit a brick when Oculus was bought by FB for $2B and were ready to chop some heads off in the management/legal team for letting Carmack get away and/or not pursuing the VR idea (which is all it was when Carmack left). To save their asses, management/legal cooked up some bullshit story about him stealing their IP (which is BS, b/c if they had IP on VR they would be suing for patent violation, but they aren't because they don't). The other telling sign is that Zenimax waited how long before going after Carmack? This tells the world that they didn't think VR was worth pursuing and/or for a long time everyone in the know at Zenimax knew all they had done was some initial investigations into what it might take to do VR. I suspect that the investigation that Carmack did at Zenimax probably didn't even get into R&D, he was just investigating. It might be pretty funny if Zenimax trots out all the work that Carmack did at there and then Oculus pulls out a stack of patents held by Nintendo on the Virtual Boy from the 90s that basically puts all of their super secret "research" squarely in the public domain.
As an engineer I have seen this from time to time. The more specialized and skilled you are, the more companies know that the moment that you leave, a competitor will get that expertise, so they try to get you to sign non-compete contracts or come after you when you leave with threatening letters. I always tell them that this is my livelihood and that they get the hours that they pay for period full stop. If they want to pay me until the day that I die, they get to prevent competitors from using me, otherwise no strings. (Non-compete contracts are actually illegal in many states, but that doesn't stop companies from trying).
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Frankly this should never be an issue. While working any job (but especially a high-tech one) you learn new skills, explore new avenues. If you make a breakthrough with this at a subsequent job your previous bosses do not get to claim ownership of it.
Nobody gets to own the inside of your head but you - no not even the people who put stuff there.
What's next ? Disney Pictures suing me for remembering a scene from Avengers ? "The defendent made an unauthorized copy of the film on the neurons of his brain"...
Unless he took physical hardware, or specs with him - there is no issue. Maybe you could complain if you can show he took copies of code with him - but even then you have to prove it's code written on company time using company resources - otherwise think where that leads. If, while working a job to pay the bills, you develop something over the weekends which you will subsequently launch a startup around - your old boss can subsequently sue your startup for it's full value claiming they own the whole thing because some of the code was written while you were still their employee ?
This reminds me too much of Snowcrash: "I own what's in these people's heads and I have a right ot make sure they can never use it for anything but working for me".
Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
LoL
Nope, with comics it's pretty straightforward. The company owns the characters when it comes to DC and Marvel. Standard work for hire. However, DC and Marvel have both gotten much better about giving creators credit and royalties after they've created something. Create a character that breaks out and anchors a billion dollar franchise? You're going to get paid nicely. But, you have no say in what gets done with that character, who writes it, how many times they die and return, etc. But, you get a check.
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
If Zenimax can show he took data with him the day he left, that's probably all the smoking gun that's necessary. Why would he do that if he wasn't going to use it in some form? He had one job when he left id, and that was to get out the door as cleanly and with as little appearance of impropriety as possible. He doesn't appear to have pulled that off.
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
If there's no single email involving Zenimax IP regarding VR or honestly anything else, he might be okay. But let's be real here. Those emails will be LOADED with stuff he shouldn't have taken with him. Not unless his company email was there only to arrange birthday parties for staff.
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
If he took research product, he's fucked. Then the only question is how critical that product was to the rift as a working system. For example, if they find evidence that he took data regarding synchronizing two displays with exactly the same timing, and not just what he knew in his head? That could be crucial enough to the Rift as a product that Zenimax could get a huge payout.
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
actually did steal some shit back in his youth
Carmack is also noted for his generous contributions to charities
I don't follow, are you implying that this guy is Robin Hood? Following the comment of "he did something bad" with "he did something good too" doesn't make sense. I'm not saying that a person can't recognize their wrongdoings and turn their life around but copypasta from Wikipedia isn't a real strong argument to that case.
Nobody gets to own the inside of your head but you - no not even the people who put stuff there.
Unfortunately this is not necessarily true, and there are many lawyers working to make it even less so. Look into the murky rules surrounding trade secrets. In many jurisdictions it is becoming increasingly more feasible for a previous employer to basically boot you out of your career path if you cease working for them. I also thought this was incredibly unfair when I first learnt about it, but that is because I'm an engineer, and grew up with a idealistic belief that life is about what you can give to humanity, not trying to grab as much of everyone else's stuff for yourself.
Oh come onnn..., I got VR headset as a present by Oculus, way to try to put a bummer on it. Why the negativity of such a new technology? Should there not be more concern for the public interest than a company's claim to one guy's work?
And then there's the story about him & Romero borrowing workstations from their employer (Softdisk) to write games on at home during the weekends ;). They really need to make a movie about him & Romero's early days.
If you make a breakthrough with this at a subsequent job
Sounds like that is not what they are arguing though.
ZeniMax detailed its case that Carmack, while still an employee at Id Software, "designed the specifications and functionality embodied in the Rift SDK and directed its development." ... Carmack allegedly used "copyrighted computer code, trade secret information, and technical know-how" from his time at ZeniMax after he moved to Oculus as CTO in 2013.
When Zenimax's lawyers talk about all this stolen "IP" they aren't pointing to specific code that was stolen. The entire case revolves around this idea that the Rift couldn't have been developed without Carmack and they own everything in Carmack's head. This is a hallmark of a claim that has no evidence and it's backed up by their claim of destruction of evidence which means they didn't find any stolen information during discovery (so of course it must have been destroyed). Such claims usually precede the case being dismissed for lack of evidence. Facebook's lawyers will likely move for dismissal for lack of evidence within days.
The first rule when looking at any legal case isn't to look at what the lawyers are arguing exclusively but to also look at what they are not arguing. They lawyers haven't listed a single line of code stolen and backed up by discovery, their claims lack any specificity and revolve solely around John having worked for them in the past (and claims that Palmer couldn't have developed this himself, claims with no evidence) and at this point in the case the lack of specificity is a death note for the case. All the Facebook lawyers need to do is stand in front of the Jury and ask where is the evidence of all these fantastic claims because there isn't any or Zenimax wouldn't be making the destruction of evidence claim.
In case you aren't aware a successful destruction of evidence claim allows the Judge to instruct the Jury that they should assume a lack of evidence should be inferred to be in the plaintiff's favor with the Jury taking the plaintiff's claims at face value. But you can't win a destruction of evidence claim without evidence of the destruction. Something they haven't demonstrated. These claims are almost always a hail mary to try to win a case where there isn't any evidence and the plaintiff is sure to lose without such a finding.
Honestly, as a founder of id software, he may have written into his contract on the acquisition that he got to keep a copy of all of his emails. The grey area may be that Zenimax thought that should only apply to emails in the past, where as Carmack thought it applied to all of his emails up until he left the company. I think the biggest thing here is that if he wasn't allowed to take his email with him, Zenimax should be leading with that, but they aren't. At this point it is a lot of speculation on both sides. We won't know until testimony reveals what the contracts said and/or what was or was not allowed.
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Very well put Rahvin
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IF is the operative word, and, as the story points out, they are alleging destruction of evidence, which indicates that they were unable to find evidence that he took anything that would help their case.
If you disagree, please post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like
My how trollish.... I'm sure there's a special place in hell for pedists
Anyhow the point of my comment is that Zuckerberg is a thief not a programmer. John Carmack is a legendary programmer, not a thief.
Yes the suit is actually between companies... but the accusation is leveled at Carmack. The notion that a guy with his talents needs to steal code is completely absurd.
And... all these people are involved IN LIEU of people not mentioned but who are NOT assumed as the real brains, right? Because voices are being heard over the heads of those involved. I am very annoyed, in 2000 there WAS a company offering virtual reality in a helmet and even had the APIs for download. I was developing my MIDI guitar applications, Roland, and had already downloaded the VR libraries and waiting for things to come together to... well, bring all these together for MY OWN GUITAR application and connectivity and integration. By the time things start coming together... no trace of the company and ALL THE GEAR gets stolen, before GUITAR HERO happens, see? An offshoot from the already working code, not even worth the while to menu it and mode the app when using the guitar was, uh, SO EASY, you know what I mean? Anyway, my idea is that of AFRICANIZING GLASSES. Yes, I already had the started the notes, I think they were along the lines of OLED... those notes where indeed snatched but later returned save a few pages... BUt the idea is still there and sound: to see things the way African eyes see them. Is IBM promising such hypervisor anytime soon? Gee! All these people messed in this while all my computers get stolen and I trying to tell people: I have an idea! I KNOW how to do it! - Nope, the idea was the Castle Wolfenstein as it was in Apple II would look great in 3D, but at the time I only had an idea of how to split geometry with trees, not the technical capability to do it in applesoft basic nor the computer for that matter.
My guess is Chris was specifically pointing this out:
Some of the recipients of Carmack's charitable contributions include his former high school,
He repaid the high school for what he did in a way. This doesn't excuse what he did though.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
But, the suit is from Id, not Facebook.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?