Slashdot Mirror


Tesla's Battery Revolution Just Reached Critical Mass (bloomberg.com)

Tesla is all set to cut the ribbon on a massive battery storage facility in the California desert -- the biggest of its kind on earth. It joins similarly huge facilities built by AES and Altagas, which are both set to launch around the same time. Combined, the plants constitute 15% of the battery storage installed globally last year. From a report: Tesla Motors is making a huge bet that millions of small batteries can be strung together to help kick fossil fuels off the grid. The idea is a powerful one -- one that's been used to help justify the company's $5 billion factory near Reno, Nev. -- but batteries have so far only appeared in a handful of true, grid-scale pilot projects. That changes this week. Ribbons will be cut and executives will take their bows. But this is a revolution that's just getting started, Tesla Chief Technology Officer J.B. Straubel said in an interview on Friday. "It's sort of hard to comprehend sometimes the speed all this is going at," he said. "Our storage is growing as fast as we can humanly scale it."

14 of 201 comments (clear)

  1. But they use lithium-ion by fustakrakich · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is a stationary setup. Weight and size shouldn't matter. They should use nickel-iron for longer durability, a hundred years or more.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    1. Re:But they use lithium-ion by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Economics doesn't matter

      This is not about "economics". It is about PR and meeting a political mandate, and not because the project actually makes sense. Alternative energy actually fits the demand curve fairly well (people run ACs when the sun is shining), and "smart meters" can help to shift demand to fit available supply. Car batteries, which are likely to be a major power consumers in the future, can be built with "smart chargers" that charge only when surplus energy is available (and thus the price is low). There is no actual need for these battery storage facilities.

      These battery storage facilities make little sense today, and will likely make even less sense in the future. They are only being built because the California state government has required the utilities to build them.

    2. Re:But they use lithium-ion by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2, Insightful

      California's peak demand is now about an hour before sunset to an hour after,

      That demand is already met by NG "peaker" plants, which are very cost effective because THEY ALREADY EXIST. Electricity demand is falling, thanks mostly to LED lighting and variable speed DC motors, so there is no need for more capacity.

      renewable generation falls off a cliff

      Solar drops. Wind power tends to rise in late afternoon.

      making it difficult for base-load plants to ramp up quickly

      Yet they do it every day. California has no coal plants and few nukes. Most power comes from NG, which can ramp up quickly, especially when the demand peak happens predictably every afternoon.

      Battery storage is needed when you want more than ~10-20% of your generation to be from solar.

      1. We are no where near close to that.
      2. It is not at all clear that batteries will be "needed" even at 10-20%.
      3. Even if batteries are needed, it would make way more sense to put them near the endpoints rather than out in the desert.
      4. These decisions should be made by the utilities not the politicians.

      That said, I am surprised the Li-Ion pencils out, even with subsidies.

      Who said it "pencils out"? The utilities don't care about the cost because they are allowed to push the costs onto their customers. The legislators don't care because boondoggles win votes whether they make sense or not, and by pushing for lithium, they get their picture in the news standing next to Elon Musk. The consumers don't care because these projects are too small to matter. Stupid policies can work as long as you keep them small.

    3. Re:But they use lithium-ion by religionofpeas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Durability gets in the way of incremental improvement, though. Given that the technology keeps improving fairly rapidly, it's probably worth the effort to strip the lithium from the batteries in a few years time, and build better ones.

  2. So, wait... by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Good article, but...

    "Critical Mass" indicates that there are more facilities coming online, or at least publicly planning to. No indication of that in TFA... in fact, the closest they got is this:

    For now, gas peaker plants still win out on price for projects that aren’t constrained by space, emissions, or urgency, said Ron Nichols, President of SCE, the California utility responsible for most of the biggest battery storage contracts. 3 But that may change in the next five years, he said.

    "...may change in the next five years..." is nowhere near actual activity that would indicate a "critical mass" in industry.

    How about they call us when it actually gets in motion - regionally, if not nationally or globally.

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  3. Re:Critical mass?!?! DAMN that Trump! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    He got a royalties from books, his money will have been in the hands of some kind of fund manager who was investing it in a blind trust. It doesn't sound implausible, mostly due to the book royalties. At least he is publishing this, unlike some other presidents...

  4. Economics by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Without a new breakthrough technology in our pocket, batteries technology should be determined by the real use case. Lithium ion is a good technology when weight is very important, but a lousy technology when does not matter. Why use a bad technology when a pretty good on is on hand?

    Several reasons, all economic.

    1) Economies of scale. Producing two types of batteries is more expensive than producing the same number of a single type of battery.

    2) Standardization. Picking the exact optimal battery type for every application instead of using a standard battery actually results in product fragmentation and added cost. It's actually cheaper in many cases to use a standardized product instead of an optimized one.

    3) Excess capacity. If you already are producing a product it's often cheaper to make extras and use those than to build a whole new production system for another product for marginal efficiency gains.

    1. Re:Economics by AmiMoJo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I imagine they are planning to recycle a lot of cells that have been used in cars and have maybe 80% capacity remaining after a million miles. As they come onto the market in quantity the price of energy storage will fall even more rapidly.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:Economics by Quince+alPillan · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Or they can do what they do in CPU manufacturing and sell those batteries that failed the performance/capacity benchmarks for the higher tier uses, but still meet the benchmarks for the lower tier uses.

  5. Re:Yippy! by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Still better than buying fuel every week.

    --
    #DeleteFacebook
  6. Re:Critical mass?!?! DAMN that Trump! by religionofpeas · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It shouldn't really be up to Trump to make ethical decisions. They should be forced upon him. Why isn't this happening ?

  7. Re:Dead Ends by religionofpeas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You don't need to use the exact same packs for cars and fixed storage. I'm sure that a bunch of smart engineers can come up with a solution that shares a lot of the key technology, especially in the production of individual cells and small packs, but find two different ways of putting the different parts together to get optimized solutions for the two different applications. Also, compactness and weight are still useful properties for a fixed installation.

  8. Re:Critical mass?!?! DAMN that Trump! by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So long as the glut continues, you're not going to be making a lot of people rich, and where the oil is more expensive to get at, like oil sands in Alberta, Saskatchewan and the Dakotas, or even North Sea oil, you're finding production falling off because the lower prices reduces the economic argument for grabbing the oil. That's the real problem here. Cheap oil is great if you're a consumer, it's probably pretty damned good if you're a refiner as well, but if you're a producer it sucks really bad, and while technology has indeed allowed cheaper access to some sources like shale oil, all in all low oil prices have actually had a pretty shitty effect, to the point where Shell is selling its North Sea assets.

    It's the great irony of oil production that it seems it is low prices, rather than high prices, that are causing the industry problems, and may in the medium term lead to more development of renewables. The Saudis, at least, seem to know this, which is why they've set up their massive sovereign wealth fund. They're going to grab the money while they can, because they know in the long term, fossil fuels are a dead end.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  9. Re:Critical mass?!?! DAMN that Trump! by mean+pun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Trump did not even have control over the countries on the travel ban list, they were put there years ago,

    He had full control. He decided to use that particular list. He could have used another list, he could have written a brand new list. Instead he picked a list that conveniently did not impact any of his business partners.

    There are liberals, and then there are leftist lunatics.

    This would be the latter.

    Please explain what is so lunatic about the point he's making. This but Obama made me do it argument is so staggeringly dumb that nobody with a mental age above 5 takes it serious. I mean, Trump? Accepting recommendations from Obama? That's almost as dumb as the whole spiel about the `huge' inauguration attendance.

    That leaves the adults wondering what the real reason is. The business interests explanation is not very convincing to me, but it is miles ahead of the but Obama made me the list explanation.

    And that's ignoring the blatant insinuation that the Obama administration made that list for the kind of asshole measures that Trump has now ordered.