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Australia's Retailers Join the Local Giant Banks in Their Battle With Apple Pay (nfcworld.com)

Posted by msmash on from the down-under dept.

More trouble for Apple in Down Under. The $300 billion retail sector has hit back at Apple, saying the global tech giant is trying to freeload on the payments infrastructure built by banks and retailers and restricting iPhone access to payments terminals will hinder loyalty schemes. From a report: The Australian Retailers Association (ARA) has come out in support of the group of four Australian banks seeking stronger negotiation powers with Apple over the introduction of Apple Pay in the country, saying they believe access to the NFC functionality in the iPhone would allow retailers to provide "a richer and more convenient customer experience." The ARA, which represents 5,000 independent and national retailers, says access to the NFC functionality will allow retailers to "develop or participate in mobile wallets that provided a consistent and fully integrated experience to all users regardless of their choice of smartphones" while also allowing loyalty programs, coupons and rewards to be "more effectively integrated into these mobile wallets." "In our view -- for as long as Apple Pay remains the only app that can use the iPhone's NFC functionality -- the potential for innovation in mobile wallets and mobile payments will be limited," the ARA says in a submission to the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission.

19 of 68 comments (clear)

  1. New name by geek · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Change Apple Pay to "Pay Apple". It's more truthful.

  2. Turnabouts fair play by ghoul · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If Apple wants Banks to cooperate by opening their payment network to iPhones , Apple must open up the iPhone NFC to mobile wallets from Banks. A competition commission cannot say its anti-competitive for incumbents to block Apple Pay but its not anti-competitive for Apple to not allow access to the NFC chip in an iPhone.

    --
    **Life is too short to be serious**
    1. Re:Turnabouts fair play by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Apple must open up the iPhone NFC to mobile wallets from Banks.

      The retailers are saying they want access to the NFC to offer a "richer and more convenient customer experience", which means they want to collect customer data without explicit consent, and coerce more people into their "loyalty" programs. I am all for faster and more secure transactions, but increased privacy should also be an explicit goal of any future payment standard.

    2. Re:Turnabouts fair play by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      >>A competition commission cannot say its anti-competitive for incumbents to block Apple Pay but its not anti-competitive for
      >> Apple to not allow access to the NFC chip in an iPhone.

      I usually find it's a mistake to give analysis in situations when I have NFI what I'm talking about :).

      It isn't "anti-competative for the incumbents to block AP." Nobody is blocking AP. Australia is not like the US. a) There is a reasonably strong consumer protection agency (ACCC). b) There aren't billions of banks... there are really five big ones. The banks asked for an exception to cartel laws so they could gang together and negotiate as one. They were told no. For banks that don't have a strong history of protecting consumers, that doesn't seem terrible. Some banks have already signed on to AP. Some haven't. That's how these things are supposed to work.

      They don't have to sign on to Apple Pay. Apple doesn't have to give them access to their hardware. Where is the problem?

      (As an aside, Australia isn't as pre-historic as the US when it comes to credit cards. Mag stripe is *not* a thing. *Everybody* has already rolled out contactless payments. So as a customer, AP has much less of a benefit. If you put your credit card in your phone case, the only difference is you don't get the fingerprint authentication.)

    3. Re:Turnabouts fair play by kevmeister · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If Apple wants Banks to cooperate by opening their payment network to iPhones , Apple must open up the iPhone NFC to mobile wallets from Banks. A competition commission cannot say its anti-competitive for incumbents to block Apple Pay but its not anti-competitive for Apple to not allow access to the NFC chip in an iPhone.

      Apple's system explicitly collects NO extraneous information on transactions. Banks hate this as they had seen mobile device transactions as a chance to collect a lot of valuable data. Sellers also hoped to build added piles of marketing data that Apple Pay won't provide because its design simply does not have access to it..

      --
      Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer, Retired
  3. It does work though by bobm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even though I'm giving up on the Apple Watch and computers I do find the Apple Pay to be pretty convenient.

    Considering the time delay on the new chip cards its much faster and I don't have to fake a signature anymore.

    1. Re:It does work though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yup - bank cards work, loyalty cards work and coupons work. The retailers are creating a smoke screen for "we want the ability to invade the user's privacy, and ApplePay doesn't let us get at that data".

    2. Re:It does work though by tlambert · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Compared to what? I personally find it much more convenient that my non-Apple mobile phone works absolutely everywhere which has an NFC reader without a specific negotiation between a bank or merchant benefiting only Apple.

      I find it convenient that your NFC phone works that way, too.

      I'm the person sitting in the car across the parking lot, staging a pre-play attack against your NFC device while you are doing your transaction, because there's not a one time cryptographic nonce, like in the Apple Pay system, which would prevent the attack.

      That's me waving at you now.

      Yes, your latest purchase is going to show up twice on your statement, and the amount deducted twice. Thanks for your contribution! You can take it up with your merchant when the bill comes; your money is already in a bank halfway across the planet.

      By the way: I also plan on an attack on the chip-and-pin system at the same store, if you switch back to using cards, but I'm going to have to actually sit down and case the joint a bit, before I decide which of the 9 identified (so far) ways to hack a chip-and-pin transaction.

      Don't you wish you could go back to the days of the old fashioned skimmers, where instead of you eating the losses (because "the new system is so much more secure"), the banks and credit card companies had to eat them?

      Cheers!

    3. Re:It does work though by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      Go your hardest. The banks are liable for this kind of fraud in most sane countries. But thanks for your concern.

      In the mean time the rates of transaction fraud have plummeted all over the world year on year, even after the introduction of contactless, and even after the introduction of systems like Google Pay which worked just fine with NFC terminals in Australia before Google closed the loophole that allowed people to use it in countries where it hadn't been released yet.

      All countries except America that is. Quick draw a line here to prove you are you, that's HIGHLY SECURE. Thanks.

  4. Not an Aussie but... by b0bby · · Score: 2

    I don't know who in this fight I dislike more. Sure, Apple is going to be gouging the retailers and banks. On the other hand, the only reason that the retailers and banks want to access the NFC chip is so they can try to lock people into their own systems, which may well be more painful to use and certainly will involve tracking of purchasing habits etc. Now, it might be useful to just wave your phone when doing a return rather than keeping track of a receipt, but I wouldn't trust either side further than I could throw them.

    1. Re:Not an Aussie but... by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      On the other hand, the only reason that the retailers and banks want to access the NFC chip is so they can try to lock people into their own systems

      Yeah god forbid the bank I do business with provides an app that allows me to pay via that bank using my phone. I mean it's much better having yet another party in the process skimming money off the top. It's an absolute win for consumers that Apple arbitrarily gets to decide exactly which bank's customers can and can't use NFC at which retailer's terminals. Imagine if *anyone* could do that. It would be utter anarchy.

      Side note: I wonder what any of your comment has to do with this case given that retailers can quite as easily access your credit card details before and after, and the banks know either way. This is really only a case of in Australia, where any idiot merchant can provide you with a credit card being upset that the iPhone is a locked in market based on who gives Apple extra money.

      In the mean time I'm quite happy swiping my non-Apple phone on a non-Apple approved NFC terminal at a non-Apple approved merchant who deducts money from my non-Apple approved bank, and have it just work.

    2. Re:Not an Aussie but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah god forbid the bank I do business with provides an app that allows me to pay via that bank using my phone. I mean it's much better having yet another party in the process skimming money off the top.

      Yes, absolutely god forbid that, please!

      I don't want 10000 different bank IT departments all writing an app, each of which has to be perfectly secure. I'd much rather one single standard (as NFC payments is) implemented well by my phone manufacturer. That way bugs get fixed properly and promptly, and retailers don't get all my private info.

      Merchants don't need to be "Apple Approved" as you make out - any NFC terminal will work fine.

      Banks need "approval", where by "approval" they mean "you need to give us artwork for your credit and debit cards so that the payment screen looks like the card you're actually paying with".

  5. So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by Old97 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Apple Pay does not cost the merchants a thing. It also does not keep them from using loyalty cards and such. I have such a loyalty card from Walgreens. It's in my Apple Phone with my credit cards. When I'm checking out it pops up and I scan it and then swipe to a credit card and scan it to pay. Walgreen's gets their data, I get points/ discounts and Apple Pay securely handles the transaction. I only need my watch to pay. So why can't these merchants just copy what Walgreen's does? If they they don't know how then I also don't trust them to secure my credit card information so I'm glad I use Apple Pay. The merchants and these banks don't want customer freedom or choice. They want more control over the customer. I don't trust them to secure my information or credit card information so I don't want them to be able to bypass Apple's security. Target? TJ Maxx? Kohls? Home Depot? All kinds of stores have had major breaches.

    --
    Very often, people confuse simple with simplistic. The nuance is lost on most. - Clement Mok
    1. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by berj · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agreed. Apple pay is ridiculously easy and convenient. Works every time and it couldn't be easier. What's more nobody can surf over my shoulder for my pin and the retailer never sees my cc number or even my name.

      The retailers have shown time and time again that they are incapable (or unwilling) to secure CC data. Why give them yet another opportunity to cock things up?

    2. Re:So much doubletalk and bullshit ... by sl3xd · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So it wouldn't surprise me at all that the banks want to negotiate a lower service fee (much like the UK and Russia have done).

      I have zero sympathy for the stores, however, whose motivation is clearly to track their consumers, and sell the invormation. You know, little things like tracking what we spend, what we buy, how much we spend, where, what time, and so on. Very much like how in the days before EMV, the magstripe on a credit/debit card was (and still is) used to track consumers in the US.

      It's shockingly invasive (and creepy) to start getting advertisements for baby needs the same week I bought my first Baby bottles in anticipation of my firstborn. My transaction information was clearly bought and sold. Who needs Big Brother to watch when every major store and payment provider is just as invasive.

      --
      -- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
  6. translation by markdavis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    >" they believe access to the NFC functionality in the iPhone would allow retailers to provide "a richer and more convenient customer experience."

    Translation:

    "We are upset that Apple might not share customer identity and other information with us because we want it. We have a right to track our customers and what they buy and who they are and etc."

    Um yeah. I will still probably just use cash, thanks.

  7. Deja vu by seoras · · Score: 2

    We saw this already in the US when Apple Pay was first launched.
    It looks like a last ditch effort by that Aussie banking cartel to prevent Apple from giving the consumer a fast, safe & convenient customer experience WITHOUT handing over personal data for tracking purposes.
    Not only did customers switch banks for Apple Pay they also stopped shopping at retailers who boycotted it.
    It took a year before those who opposed it crumbled. I predict the same in Australia.
    The consumer has all the real power here and voting with your wallet is still very effective.

    This isn't about Apple. This is about data collection on consumers.
    I only wish Apple would use their cash war chest to lobby more to get the necessary legislation to protect public privacy.

  8. Android Pay works totally fine here, so....? by AbRASiON · · Score: 2

    I mean I don't like banks but I'd assume this is Apples doing? They must be pushing for something ridiculous in some way, because Android Pay appears to use the standard Pay-Wave technology of normal cards.
    I'm normally very much a luddite on this stuff but I thought I'd give it a shot and I hate to admit, it's genuinely better than cash, purely from a "wow, it's even quicker than cash" perspective.
    (I've *always* hated cards normally, because I'm stuck behind idiots taking forever with PIN# business or swiping a different card, etc)

    None the less it's literally faster than cash, it's a very very fast transaction and (to my knowledge) any place with Pay-Wave (very common) works fine.
    I believe Pay-Wave is just our contactless card thing, you guys might call it something else.

    https://www.google.com.au/sear...

    (NOTE: I hear you guys in the US have only just got the card tap and pay stuff? We have it in I would say at least 90% of places in the metro / city areas and maybe 60 or 70% out in the country regions)

  9. Re:an oozing sore in the privacy skin by rtb61 · · Score: 2

    I have to be honest, this story, is the very first time I felt like dropping Android for iPhone. I dislike NFC spying. Apple sure seems to be going, 'we sell you privacy, we don't sell your privacy route'. Keep it up and they will definitely have at least one first time Apple buyer, I am sure, I will not be alone.

    --
    Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen