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Brazil Judge Rules Uber Drivers Are Employees, Deserve Benefits (reuters.com)
An anonymous reader shares a Reuters report: A Brazilian judge ruled that a driver using the Uber ride-hailing app is an employee of the San Francisco-based company and is entitled to workers' benefits, adding to the global debate over labor rights for drivers on the platform. Uber said on Tuesday it would appeal the decision by Judge Marcio Toledo Goncalves, who issued the ruling late Monday in a labor court in Minas Gerais state. Goncalves ordered Uber to pay one driver around 30,000 reais ($10,000) in compensation for overtime, night shifts, holidays and expenses such as gasoline, water and candy for passengers. The consequences for Uber, if the ruling is upheld, could be far greater if more drivers follow suit and if state and federal regulators and tax agencies start treating it, as the judge suggested, as a transportation company rather than a tech firm.
More likely they will pull out of any markets that dictate this. They can't remain profitable doing that.
But this seems clearly different.
There are certain expectations of an employee, like working a set number of hours per month, or performing a fixed amount of work.
An Uber "employee" can decide exactly how much work to do each month. They are completely in control. (as far as I understand it)
Also, no one told the guy to buy candy. I can buy all the candy I want and say it's for customers, but if I go to my boss to reimburse me, he will probably pay me back since he is a pretty good guy, but still. My point is that if I keep making random purchases with no prior agreement at some point he will tell me to stop it.
Someone comes up with an idea that's pretty good, is designed for people to work part time to pick up some cash, minimal regulations, etc. and it's a pretty good thing for everyone all around.
Then some loser decided to do it wrong, wants free shit and the government steps in an gives it to him.
Now an innovative company, built for part time workers, is turned into just another cab company with full time employees.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
What has really saddened me as of late is seeing how all these big entrenched companies can attack Uber by using the very unions that attacked them.
When people work for big companies they are often not unionized despite crazy conditions, overtime, out of pocket expenses, etc.... But when a small upstart app uses a phone to link together private transactions, suddenly *THEN* they are subject to all the crazy labor laws and rights.
I find this most disgusting as it shows these laws are more weapons than truly rights that we the people hold as workers. Whenever someone pisses off the entrenched cartels they will temporarily acknowledge our rights only if it bankrupts their enemies. These people making these rulings could care less about the actual people who drive for Uber.....
Yet Foxconn employees aren't really Apple employees they just subcontract out the construction of the Iphones.... Suicide after suicide from the working conditions means nothing. Amazing!
“The Next World War will start in America's backward. The people were duped years ago and woke up too late. This is already set in stone” exact quote from email.
You should review your excessively long posts better. What is "America's backward" ?
Other than the hundreds of industries that have thousands, if not millions, or independent contractors?
When I hire someone to clean my gutters, am I on the hook for their healthcare and matching their 401k?
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Do you live in Brazil? If not, how is this relevant?
I'm pretty sure if you're employing people in different countries you have to abide by their labor laws. You can't just push American labor laws on other countries. Cost of doing business there uber. Want to be a global multi-national company? You have to pay to play.
Or maybe we should just all agree on some global labor standards but I bet you America wouldn't like that one bit.
We'll make great pets
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that English is not this persons first language; there's some fairly awkward constructions, some words are mistaken for others that look similar but have completely different meaning, and contractions are avoided. Of course, it might just be fluent crazy. "Normal for Slashdot"
wtf does this have to do with uber?
from the summary:
"A Brazilian judge ruled that a driver using the Uber ride-hailing app is an employee of the San Francisco-based company and is entitled to workers' benefits, adding to the global debate over labor rights for drivers on the platform...."
Did anyone notice the contradiction? The submitter reports a Brazilian judge requiring that mandatory entitlements be given to Uber drivers, then within the same sentence instead refers to "workers rights".
Entitlements are the opposite rights. An entitlement is prohibition of liberty; If the Uber driver is entitled to receive X dollars in compensation then the driver can not choose to work for less. A right is a grant of liberty; If I have the right to free speech then I can choose what to say without restriction.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
...Uber shuts down operations in Brazil, and angry people take to the street blaming Uber for not wanting to serve the poor, oppressed people who can't afford a taxi. Meanwhile, unemployment goes up and former Uber drivers hit the unemployment and soup kitchen lines.
Beware the Law of Unintended Consequences... it'll bite you every single time.
If you only want them cleaned to your satisfaction - no. If you want them to wear gloves manufactured by your brother-in-law's company - yes. Any messing in the "how it gets done" is out of bounds unless it directly relates to the results. Sometimes there are grey areas - it's best to stay out of those or you could end up paying someone contractor rates and then providing benefits anyways.
what part of your post actually answers the parent's question about court cases invovling Uber? well done for your useless reply
Eu falo português.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
You mean how was my post relevant other than referring standard industry practices?
It may come as to a shock to the thousands of aspies on slashdot, but not every legal situations requires a formal mathematical proof in order to be supported.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
It merely shows HOW STUPID the system of corrupt government corporate interaction is, and how the government takes any thing it touches and makes cost 10x as much.
Most of my friends cannot afford a taxi. Most taxis I've ridden in are disgusting. Uber, they can afford. And the vehicles are usually pretty nice.
Nearly EVERY taxi driver is a private contractor. A company owns the cabs, and the licenses. They then lease these out to the cabbies to drive. No benefits. No W2.
Second, why are these laws ignored? I work for a company on a government contract. We have dictated to us: where we sit, what machine we use, and when we have to be there for work.
"Specifying "you may only use DeWalt tools on this contract" can be enough to have your contractors qualify as employees."
But they're not specifying that. They're specifying that you need to have your own tools. And that they need to be contractor grade. You can't show up to work with a Black and Decker drill from Walmart and a battery that lasts 20 minutes. Nothing wrong there.
***
Let's get to the real crux of the matter, W2. I think we need to eliminate the distinction of W2 and contractors. I think we need to eliminate company provided benefits. Shift the entire benefit industry to groups. Trade groups. Regional groups. Whatever.
But let's have honest accounting. No more should our employers pay half the Social Security Tax. We should receive that money, and then we should pay the entire tax. Cause frankly, contractors get abused and the government is never going to protect the individual on those abuses. So let's end that distinction.
The whole point is that taxis operate at excessive costs and poor quality precisely because of a playing field that is stupid.
Uber is playing on an entirely different field.
And if you don't want to play on it, you can go be a taxi driver.
It's completely ignorant to demand companies play on the "same playing field" when the whole point is to escape the existing one.
You're not an employee of Uber. You're a contractor. You set your own hours. If you don't like the terms, find another job.
If you like the terms of being a taxi driver better, be a taxi driver.
Work Safe Porn
Most contractors don't set prices. They can accept the price or move on. Can't turn down too many customers. Well guess what, you can't go too many days without coding and remain a contractor either. Can't drive whatever car they want. Nope...you need to have a tool that meets a modicum of professionalism. Yes, you're a contractor...but when you go to meetings you are required to dress appropriately...or you lose the privilege of being a contractor.
But if I am the firm hiring the sub-contractors. Me saying that you have to show up to work and not be half-naked if you want to continue to be a sub-contractor is NOT outrageous. It's the norm.
If I work as a contractor through a management company and turn down projects, they're going to start paying someone else who actually wants to do the work.
And if I don't have the proper tools for the jobs, I don't get the jobs.
A 2 door car is not sufficient because the passenger is trapped until the driver lets them out.
A beat up junker isn't sufficient because passengers expect a car that will make it to the destination.
There's a very huge difference between not being available during certain hours and selectively saying "nope" to passengers.
Work Safe Porn
If they're Uber employees. Create a benefits package for Brazil. It can be utterly crappy and include pretty much nothing but a auto insurance discount.
Then mandate all uber employees have to be available from 8am to 6pm.
Other than the hundreds of industries that have thousands, if not millions, or independent contractors?
So, not a case involving Uber, huh?
When I hire someone to clean my gutters, am I on the hook for their healthcare and matching their 401k?
You do it for your own house? You're ok. You do it for the neighborhood? Probably not. You do it for a whole city area? Watch you become their employer.
And do pray that you aren't liable if they get injured because you hired a wildcat operation, not an insured one.
Most contracts give the client some control over "how it get's done". The contractor is being hired to perform a specific task, if I as the client have some stipulations then that is negotiated at the time the contract is signed.
Who provides and who decides the materials used? Who decides the hours to be worked? Can the work be done offsite or on?
All of these can be dictated by the client or left up to the worker and can have various degrees of bearing on whether they are employer/employee of client/contractor.
In most countries there is usually at least 5 or 6 primary criteria (often with several sub-criteria) for determining employee vs. contractor and the weights given to each are generally decided case by case.
Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
How does it make any sense that Uber should pay a driver overtime pay when the driver is fully in charge of how many hours they work per day or week?
That makes no sense at all.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
While there are some Stockholm syndrome poor and middle class people who might balk, the majority of us WOULD like the health and safety regulations in place worldwide, mostly because it would be a barrier to the cost effectiveness of domestic firms outsourcing to foreign locations.
The linked article didn't say what the basis for the decision was. And it only applied to one driver. It does not say they had to reclassify all their drivers as employees.
Drivers may not be "independent contractors" in the same way that a programmer might be (for example, depending where you live, you might only have one ride share service you can work for), but they absolutely are not regular employees.
They have 100% control over schedules, and a very low bar to getting hired (for many places, it seems like you just download an app, fill out some info, get a rudimentary vehicle inspection and an automated background check and you are ready to start driving...no need to actually demonstrate that you are a friendly person or a skilled driver). Maybe there needs to be some new legal framework for these people, but it seems absurd that a company should have to pay perks and benefits to a person that they have no direct authority over. All uber can do is remove your access to the platform. They can't tell you "work this shift" or "work this neighborhood" or "we are busy, you need to stay on another hour"...
It is almost like if you said that ebay was responsible for paying benefits to powersellers...Sure, ebay is in a position to cut off their livelyhood by banning them from the platform, and sure, for some people there might be no alternative viable market to hawking their wares on ebay, but nobody would ever call a powerseller an ebay employee.
Bottles.
Uber's drivers are prohibited from subcontracting others to do multiple jobs for them at the same time, so uber is exerting too much control over them, causing the drivers to be employees.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
It's not being prided / getting miles for on call wait time / drive to call time / drive back to base after long ride time. Paper work / other admin time.
Also maybe big time drivers can bill for the oil change time / car cleaning time / etc.
uber leasing cars / cell phone costs / etc are also issues.
Uber push for control with them renting out the tools needed for the job is not a good thing to have with contractors or even employees. Even said that you can rent ours or use your own is iffy. Other "contractors" have been forced to rent stuff like fedex like with there scanners.
There was a time when benefits were optional or rare. Then price and wage controls were introduced and the only way employers could attract good talent was to offer them "benefits". Now they are mandatory. Things might be better if people got more money and chose their own health plan outside of work just like car insurance. (Along with being able to buy across state lines and tort reform but that's a story for another time.)
For those who can read Portuguese: Sentença.
It's pretty good.
The judge says that according to Brazilian Labor Law (CLT), employee is "any natural person who provides services on a regular basis to an employer, under his or her dependence and on a salary basis", so the elements to recognize the employment relationship are: natural person (i.e. not a company - legal person), personal relation, regular nature of the relationship, onerosity (I've never seen this word in English, in this context means that there is payment for something) and subordination.
1. The driver is a natural person.
2. On the personal relation the main points the judge makes are: 1. That Uber requires previous registering from the drivers. The drivers have to send several documents, not have criminal antecedents, etc and, at the time, the driver had to pass an interview to be approved by Uber. 2. That the driver cannot give his account to another person in any way (rent, cede). He can only share his car with other uber approved drivers. In this point Uber defense was that the users cannot chose the driver, so it was not a personal relationship. The judge dismisses this argument by pointing out that the personal relation in question is not between the driver and the user, but between uber and the driver, just like the user doesn't choose the cook in a restaurant, but the restaurant chooses the cooks that will work for it.
3. On onerosity, the defense argues that the driver is paying uber, and not the opposite. So it is Uber that is providing a service to the driver and being paid. The judge dismisses this argument by pointing out that it is untrue. The facts he pointed are: there are several promotions where the user doesn't pay for the ride, but Uber still pays the driver; There are "promotions" where Uber pays the driver to be available, even if there are not enough rides; and the most important that the users pay Uber, Uber receives the payment, removes it's percentage e retain the rest, passing them along to the drivers at the end of the week. That shows that Uber not only mediates the businesses between driver and passenger but the opposite, receives for every service realized and later pays the worker.
4. On the regularity of the services, the judge points that it is a complicated matter, points some theories and ends up with pointing out that: 1. this driver was working regularly; 2. that if drivers are not available for long periods of time they are excluded from the platform; 3. that one of the drivers received an email threatening being excluded from the platform if he didn't make any rides in the following week. With this he points out that the defendant demands frequency from the drivers. Then he points that the non-eventuality of the relationship was even more evident by the theory of the ends of an enterprise. He questions what are the ends of the defendant? Is it a technology company that only makes the interface between people or a modern passengers transportation company? Then he gets the definition of a transportation service... It goes on for a while, it's late here...
5. On subordination he says it's the most important in the employment relationship. He says it is the most complex to identify. So its very long and I'm sorry. He talks about how the drivers cannot chose prices, cannot refuse rides, cannot hand out personal cards (I didn't know that), etc. Then he talks about how the control over the employees occurs in a different way nowadays, fact that was included in Brazilian law in 2011 (electronic means of control and supervision are equivalent to personal control and supervision he quotes from the law). He points that the control is diluted between the users and the algorithm, and that drivers are punished for being under 4.7 stars, or automatically terminated if under 4.4 stars or committing severe infractions (like handing personal cards).
With this he decided that there is an employment relationship, it's probably going to be appealed.
Good night.
If you're not negotiating for your prices, then you're not much of a contractor: a person who produces results for a fee.
What you're describing is an employee, not a contractor. If your employer is setting conditions on what tools you may use to produce the results and a dress code, you're an employee.
Some countries have limits on working time, to stop employers abusing workers by paying them extremely low wages and then offering overtime to make it up. In other words, to stop exactly what Uber is doing.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
great loss for uber drivers and customers alike.
If you don't like conditions that Uber provides, don't freaking work for them!
Me saying that you have to show up to work and not be half-naked if you want to continue to be a sub-contractor is NOT outrageous. It's the norm.
That's still within the boundaries of "getting it done" as a form of risk management. A worker that shows up inappropriately clothed is at risk of being arrested or being kicked off site by a helicopter mom. That's similar to a requirement for a contractor to have proper insurance. The insurance doesn't affect the result of a typical job, but is does affect the result of a job that has gone wrong.
Also, as I said earlier, there are a lot of subjective areas to contract law in almost all jurisdictions. Since the penalty for imposing a restriction that isn't allowed is so great, it's best to steer very clear of the line.
To scale the sheer volumes of drivers to field the demand fares have during heavy events is not possible if everyone has to drive a black limousine and only work as a driver 30+/hours per week with bureaucratic registration regulatory license. Same thing goes for AirBnB and other gig / excess capacity platforms. So I respectfully disagree that ride share drivers should categorically be employees.
Analogy: Lots of beaches and pools have signs indicting swim at your own risk. Must all beaches provide life guards or disallow anyone to swim upon penalty of jail? Who's going to pay for the life guards? Why should skilled safe swimmers pay to subsidize risks of unwise, unskilled, or reckless people with poor swimming skills? The are community pools that do have full life guard staff, but it can not scale to all swim-able bodies of water.
If people want to hitchhike, and a platform makes it easier to match up parties - embrace it. That parties reputations are closely tracked and bad apples are proactively pruned, even better. Lyft pioneered it, Uber copied it, and now Waze/Google is joining the fray. If people want expensive, poor quality, unresponsive taxis and limousine service, well those business are still around and no one is stopping you from using those. But if you want affordable, demand based, agile transportation, or short stay guest rooms, or other sharing resources and you are a consenting adult who understands the term and conditions, let innovation ride and businesses evolve.
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