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Munich's IT Lead: 'No Compelling Reason' To Switch Back To Windows From Linux (techrepublic.com)

"The man who runs Munich's central IT says there is no practical reason for the city to write off millions of euros and years of work to ditch its Linux-based OS for Windows," reports TechRepublic. Long-time Slashdot reader Qbertino summarizes a German-language article: Karl-Heinz Schneider, lead of Munich's local system house company IT@M, goes on to claim, "We do not see pressing technical reasons to switch to MS and MS Office... The council [in their recent plans] didn't even follow the analysts' suggestion to stick with using LibreOffice." Furthermore, Schneider stated that "System failures that angered citizens in recent years never were related to the LiMux project, but due to new bureaucratic procedures..." and apparently decisions by unqualified personnel at the administrative level, as Munich's administration itself states.

36 of 203 comments (clear)

  1. Translation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Windows paid off the right people to switch back.

    That said, open source software is great until you have to use it. OpenOffice, GIMP, KiCad...all needlessly convoluted.

    1. Re:Translation by cb88 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Libre/OpenOffce perhaps, GIMP for sure, and KiCAD a little... but they aren't that bad. I have used very expensive software that was no better... OrCAD for instance (whatever it is called now, Xilinx's toolcina etc..Visual Studio crashes on a whim...

    2. Re:Translation by Assmasher · · Score: 3, Informative

      Visual Studio crashes on a whim? Weird, I use it every single day across multiple machines and virtual machines (Win 7,8.1,10, x86 and x64) when debugging Qt applications, and for writing tools for the Windows side of the house - the last crash I experienced was in a 3rd party plugin for Visual Studio 2010 over 5 years ago. I've been using it on the Windows side for decades (all the way back to Visual C++ 1.5 days when I used it and Borland C++) and never had problems with crashing (not that it never crashed, but it rare.)

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    3. Re:Translation by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A lot depends on how you use it. The people who crash Visual Studio are obviously using it wrong ;-)

    4. Re:Translation by JoeMerchant · · Score: 3, Informative

      I've used GIMP and Photoshop over the years. Photoshop tends to be ahead on professional oriented workflow automation, GIMP tends to be on-par for more casual image editing. Both have a steep learning curve. Neither is worth thousands of dollars, but one will charge you that.

    5. Re: Translation by bmo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Ten years of Photoshop rentals is $1198.80*

      Ten years of GIMP is still $0

      hope this helps.

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      BMO

      *Only if Adobe keeps the fee structure the same.
      "I have altered the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further."

    6. Re:Translation by Daemonik · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Usually the people who complain that software B is hard to use have been using software A for 10 years and B is just different enough to throw them off constantly.

    7. Re:Translation by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Usually the people who complain that software B is hard to use have been using software A for 10 years and B is just different enough to throw them off constantly.

      Exactly. I made the transition from Microsoft's suite to AO and LO almost seamlessly. I had to look up some things in their spreadsheet, but that might have taken up 15 minutes. since then. On the other hand, fixing documents from Windows to OSX was a regular part of operation, I probably spent months overall.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    8. Re:Translation by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 3, Informative

      > nor is it so difficult to transition from on to the other.

      I use BOTH Photoshop and GIMP.

      While they BOTH suck GIMP's lack of native layer blend modes still suck more compared to Photoshop. Namely:

      Photoshop Gimp
      ========= ====
      Normal = Normal
      Dissolve = Dissolve
      - -
      Darken = Darken only
      Multiply = Multiply
      Color Burn -- MISSING
      Linear Burn = Burn
      Darker Color -- MISSING
      - -
      Lighten = Lighten only
      Screen = Screen
      Color Dodge = Dodge
      Linear Dodge
      MISSING = Addition
      Lighter Color -- MISSING
      - -
      Overlay -- MISSING!
      Soft Light -- MISSING
      Hard Light -- MISSING
      Vivid Light -- MISSING
      Pin Light -- MISSING
      Hard Mix -- MISSING
      - -
      Difference = Difference
      Exclusion -- MISSING
      Subtract = Subtract
        MISSING Grain extract
      MISSING Grain merge
      Divide = Divide
      - -
      Hue = Hue
      Saturation = Saturation
      Color = Color
      Luminosity = Value

      Gimp's lack of native 16-bit greyscale, and 32-bit / channel also make it suck.

      But for the "most part" the two are functionally equivalent.

    9. Re: Translation by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 3

      My daughter thinks GIMP is great and Photoshop is crap ; but she started with GIMP. It is largely about what you've learned and overcoming the "yuk" factor of having to learn a different way of doing things.

      I get the same feeling when I have to use Windows, or OSX, for any kind of productive work when for the last decade I've been using Linux.

    10. Re: Translation by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Informative

      I was about to retort with some interesting fact about the version of Photoshop I was using still working just fine but ...

      As of January 9th 2017 you can no longer buy Photoshop and it's now exclusively available through a creative cloud subscription.

      Fuck em.

    11. Re:Translation by sonamchauhan · · Score: 4, Funny

      Maybe you're moving your mouse around too rapidly. The telemetry service cannot keep pace!

    12. Re:Translation by jwhyche · · Score: 4, Informative

      at said, open source software is great until you have to use it. OpenOffice, GIMP, KiCad...all needlessly convoluted.

      I can see that with gimp. It has one of the worse interfaces for any software that I have seen. I don't know about KiCad as I have never used it. Openoffice is several years out of date. Do they still maintain it?

      Libreoffice 5.x+ is what you want to use. 4.x and below I always seemed to have issues interfacing with the rest of the MS office world. Not so with 5.x+ and above.

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    13. Re: Translation by jwhyche · · Score: 2

      For the last 20 years I have almost never reinstalled a OS unless it was a fresh build, on a my production equipment. You know what the key to that is? Don't load weird shit from back ally sites on to your production equipment.

      My current load of windows on this machine is 5 years old. Granted it started as a windows 7 machine and worked its way up to windows 10. The linux load on the bitch box behind me is 3 years old.

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    14. Re:Translation by jwhyche · · Score: 2

      To each his own I say. I use MS office in work environment because of compatibility issues with libre office. I know it has gotten so much better in 5.x now, but still I will stick to MS office there. I can lose a contract just because some client can't open a proposal in their copy of word. Not worth the chance to me.

      I use libreoffice 5.x for personal writings. I like the feel of librewrite over ms word. Librewrite reminds me of the word processors I used to use on the Amiga back in college.

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      I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
    15. Re: Translation by jwhyche · · Score: 2

      I know several people that use libreoffice for work. Mostly die hard penguins that use linux for work too.

      I don't know any one, at all, that uses google docs for anything. Not even personal use.

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    16. Re:Translation by jwhyche · · Score: 2

      Photoshop is geared for professionals where time is money. If you can get a photo done with a push of a button that will save you hours of work. That is a good thing.

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  2. millions of euros and years of work by swell · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Um, it cost that much to switch to Linux? This can't be encouraging to other cities / governments. Exactly how was the money and time spent? Inquiring minds want to know!

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    ...omphaloskepsis often...
    1. Re:millions of euros and years of work by dbIII · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The cost of buying computers over the last decade adds up to a bit no matter what you put on them.

    2. Re: millions of euros and years of work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Licenses... $0
      Anpassung... $2,000,000
      Transexuellen Waschraum für Linux-Benutzer.... $2,500,000
      Prostituierte und Kokain... $3,500,000

    3. Re:millions of euros and years of work by David_Hart · · Score: 2

      The cost of buying computers over the last decade adds up to a bit no matter what you put on them.

      I'm willing to bet that the cost isn't for hardware, it would be the same hardware whether they were running Windows or a Linux variant. The cost probably went into development of their version of Linux, the packaging and testing of the OS and apps, the development of a support system, and training. All of this requires labour, which tends to be more expensive than software (i.e. most of this would be off-the-shelf software in the Windows world).

  3. Where is the User choice in all of this by ConallB · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Whenever I read stories like this, ie. Windows vs. Linux vs. OSX vs. it seems to always be from the perspective of the implementers or those looking to make a point about whether it can be done. Why not offer choice? Why the constant insistence that users must have the flavour of the day foisted upon them?

    There is complexity in running an estate with multiple OS on offer but the truth is, any sysadmins capable of running a *nix infrastructure and operation should find supporting and mainlining other OS estates relatively straightforward.

    In my personal life I make good use of all 3 mainstream OS and at work I have a choice which is made available all users too.

    And with modern browsers offering productivity suites through web based platforms and file storage and infrastructure delivered via consolidated IaaS / AWS / Azure / Google Compute / NEOther why does anyone even care about the opinions techies have in regards to their own preferences.

    Use what's right for you and let the technology work with your choice to ensure interoperability, security and information management. That's where the techies should focus.

    --
    Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
    1. Re:Where is the User choice in all of this by dbIII · · Score: 2

      Why the constant insistence that users must have the flavour of the day foisted upon them?

      Because it's driven by salesfolk who focus on the very short term.

      And with modern browsers offering productivity suites through web based platforms

      Yes. Also X Windows and RDP things make it easier to run stuff where it will run well and display it on whatever the user has, even a phone or tablet if necessary. Some of the third party RDP things even have similar functionality to X where they can export a single application window (instead of the MS thing that gives you a user confusing extra desktop, making it more or less just VNC that you have to pay for only with some virus vectors).

    2. Re:Where is the User choice in all of this by lucm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Do you rejoice when you get an email about an upgrade of the vending machines in the company cafeteria, or do you worry about the new machines not carrying the kind of soft drinks or candy bars you're used to? That's basically how a typical office worker feels about computers. Spend a week working helpdesk and you'll understand that very very clearly.

      That's why when you manage a large pool of workstations you want the bare minimum that users need to do their work, and why you want that bare minimum to be set in stone. Otherwise you're just annoying users and adding more support tickets to your queue.

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      lucm, indeed.
    3. Re:Where is the User choice in all of this by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Whenever I read stories like this, ie. Windows vs. Linux vs. OSX vs. it seems to always be from the perspective of the implementers or those looking to make a point about whether it can be done. Why not offer choice?

      If you use Microsoft office, you put a straitjacket on your system. Not compatible with OSX version of Office, no software at all for Linux.

      Choice is nice, but why choose the most limiting OS and Office Suite? I run LO, and my Mac shows the same as my Windows shows the same as my Linux shows the same.

      That's why I use it.

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      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    4. Re:Where is the User choice in all of this by matbury6017 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The trouble is that Microsoft don't like their users to have choice. They bake-in proprietary features and incompatibilities that prevent users from sharing documents and files across operating systems or going outside their software walled gardens. How many prosecutions against Microsoft for anti-competitive practices will it take to convince you? They don't want their users to have choice, they want their users to be stuck with using their products and services and unable to easily switch to others.

      I can see that for people whose jobs are doing stuff other than ICT will see the transition from one OS and office software to another as a problem. It's one transition, once. Anyone who's experienced Win10 can attest that it's so different to previous versions and that they've changed around MS Office so much lately, that the learning curve to switch to Linux is comparable. So why not? Also, there's the privacy issues with Win10 (Microsoft calls their key-loggers and spyware "telemetry") that all governments should be wary of. Keep your privacy and control with Linux as well as save a few € in the process.

  4. Re: LibreOffice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Better than Micro$oft Office 365.

  5. Obvious solution: by julian67 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Obvious solution: switch to ReactOS. Or, if that seems too time consuming, just install Gentoo.

  6. Re:LibreOffice by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Business people live and breathe Excel. They know what they are doing.

    I've seen plenty of evidence that they don't.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  7. More Corruption by StormReaver · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is a glaring example of corruption at work. Microsoft bribes the council into shoveling millions back into Microsoft. I wish I could say something like, "how are these clowns not being thrown out of office?!" However, this is standard operating procedure in corrupt governments around the world.

  8. Re:LibreOffice by rtb61 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Apparantly you are wrong, https://www.google.com.au/sear... leads to https://ask.libreoffice.org/en.... Wow that was really so hard.

    Next step in this story should be a in depth investigation of why the new incoming politician pushed so hard on this apparently with zero consultation with his IT staff. Most probable, M$ paid them a bribe (campaign contribution) to push it, so the arse holes at M$ could use if for marketing purposed and the stupendously invasive POS windows anal probe 10, dies a slow grim death.

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    Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  9. The real reason by rodia · · Score: 2

    MS made a deal with Munich's mayors office to move its german headquarters to Munich. Wonder what the other side of that deal was...

  10. Re:Is that his job? by joppeknol · · Score: 2

    Usually that job is to _advise_, but not to _undermine_ his bosses. Advising is something you do internally, not publicly.

    Look, I get he cares about this. But if his bosses tell him to make sure application or OS get installed, it's his job to make it so - and not to bitch about it in public. If he doesn't like his job, I'm sure there are plenty of other people who will do it without complaints.

    His bosses are the tax-paying citizens of Munich. If he has the idea that the process by which the os was chosen is wrong, he almost has an obligation to express his opinion.

    There are reasons why certain decision-making is private, but especially in a public organisation, there shouldn't be too many. I don't see why a decision on windows vs linux shouldn't be transparent for everyone.

  11. Re:LibreOffice by F.Ultra · · Score: 3, Interesting

    AFAIK the new major of Munich boasts that he was the one responsible for Microsoft relocating their German HQ from Frankfurt to Munich so this is most definitely political and not technical.

  12. Re: LibreOffice by Blaskowicz · · Score: 2

    Is there a "word processing mode"?, or "content mode"?
    When we hit return twice to space out paragraphs, it's because that's easier and in the mean time the paragraphs are spaced out, like we intend to.
    If we're not supposed to do that, so much as it's considered harmful, maybe there should be a GUI mode where you're constrained from doing that. You hit enter and it doesn't let you go down one more line unless you do something "right" like introduce a new paragraph, section, page break etc.

    If word processors default to being a typewriter, and the proper way of using it (even since the 90s) is an "advanced" feature that requires going into menus and trying to figure out what the hell a "style" is, while a single manual adjustment breaks it all, then maybe the design of word processors is flawed.

  13. Re: LibreOffice by jwhyche · · Score: 2

    Depends on what office environment you are in. Everyone in my company uses office 2013 and up. All our documents come across as docx. I hardly ever see a plan doc, document in the wild any more.

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