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Canadian Millennials Struggle As College Degrees Don't Guarantee Jobs (www.cbc.ca)
"CBC News is reporting on how millennials are finding that education only guarantees debt, not a stable job. Not even in STEM," writes Slashdot reader BarbaraHudson, adding "The irony -- one of the teachers touting the values of further education is herself part of the gig economy." An anonymous reader summarizes the article, which reports that 33% of the engineers in Ontario are now underemployed.
"I actually thought that coming out of school I would be a commodity and someone would want me," said one 21-year-old mechanical engineering graduate. "But instead, I got hit with a wall of being not wanted whatsoever in the industry." He's applied for 250 engineering jobs, resulting in four interviews, but no job offer, and he's since broadened his job search to the deli counter at the local grocery store, because "It's a job."
"More than 12% of Canadians between the ages of 15 and 24 are unemployed," reports CBC News, "and more than a quarter are underemployed, meaning they have degrees but end up in jobs that don't require them. The latest numbers from Statistics Canada show that the unemployment rate for 15-to-24-year-olds is almost twice that of the general population... A 2014 Canadian Teachers' Federation report found nearly a quarter of Canada's youth are either unemployed, working less than they want or have given up looking for work entirely."
The article also points out that the number of students enrolled in Canadian universities has more than doubled since 1980, from 800,000 to over two million.
"More than 12% of Canadians between the ages of 15 and 24 are unemployed," reports CBC News, "and more than a quarter are underemployed, meaning they have degrees but end up in jobs that don't require them. The latest numbers from Statistics Canada show that the unemployment rate for 15-to-24-year-olds is almost twice that of the general population... A 2014 Canadian Teachers' Federation report found nearly a quarter of Canada's youth are either unemployed, working less than they want or have given up looking for work entirely."
The article also points out that the number of students enrolled in Canadian universities has more than doubled since 1980, from 800,000 to over two million.
sorry but education takes a back seat to either who you know or who you are sleeping with or both. the hiring managers dont want to hire you if you are smarter than they are but we've known this for over 23 years.
There was a recession when I hit the workforce after university. It was tough getting a job. REALLY tough. So I did manual labour for a few years before I finally got into my chosen career's industry. This happens. In retrospect, even fresh out of school I wasn't really ready. Too many expectations beyond what my worth as an employee could justify.
Now I'm seeing more or less the same situation with the current generation. The world doesn't owe you shit, life doesn't have to be fair, and no matter how recent your education, chances are there's a grumpy asshole who is of more practical use to an employer because they can handle social interactions in a workplace and understand the way work life works, with enough experience (in precisely what their employer requires!) to more than raise their net value above an inexperienced applicants'.
The problem isn't underemployment of the youth (suck it up, Buttercup, that's how almost everyone starts while they're learning all the things schools don't teach), the problem is the jobs where they can get their real world experience are drying up and it's only going to get worse.
However, as long as there are jobs to be done by humans and humans aren't immortal, eventually older people retire, lose it, or die off and have to be replaced. Hiring will happen. If kids aren't getting hired, it's because there are less jobs overall required to maintain our currently desired economic productivity.
That's a sociopolitical issue to be resolved not by minimum wage hikes or make-work programs, but by legislating shorter standard work weeks and nationalizing health benefits. Make it affordable for employers to hire more people to do the work, make it less life-affecting for people to work less.
The goal is to make it the graduate's fault somehow. Before it was "you didn't get a degree" as the excuse. Now that he's got a degree, it's "you didn't do it right".
Otherwise, the constant mantra of "A degree is a pathway to prosperity" would have to be re-evaluated. And there's a lot of money relying on no one questioning that.
Of course 15 - 24 years olds will be over represented in unemployment statistics.
The lower age range there are going to be 15, 16, 17 and 18 year olds who are not in school or training of some kind, and who will employ them?
I have checked and school is compulsory until 16 in Canada, so any 15 year old not in school probably has some other problems in their life, making employment even less likely.
Sandro Perruzza, the chief executive officer at the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers (OSPE), is familiar with graduates like McCrave.
"He could have applied for co-ops or apprenticeships while he was at school — even if it delayed his graduation," Perruzza said. "We strongly advocate co-ops. The fact is because of the sheer number of applicants these days, the ones who get the jobs have some kind of experience."
But what help can that be right now? That just smacks of arrogance on Mr. Perruzza's part.
Its helpful to those still in school, a warning not to make the same mistake. You get out of school what you put into it. If you are there to get your "ticket punched' expect problems like this. If you are there to truly learn as much as you can then you will be doing something beyond merely attending classes. Some sort of side project (student entrepreneurial competitions, independent study/research, etc) or some sort of practical experience (internships, co-op ed, part-time job, etc).
It's not surprising, colleges have been weakening their standards for graduates for a generation. For example, you can get an English degree without ever reading Shakespeare. You can't even find a rhetoric class at many universities these days, and if you want public speaking experience you're better off at toastmasters (but that was once a common requirement). Foreign language and math requirements are dropping as well. In computer science, you can graduate with a degree without ever understanding how a computer works. In some cases, I've seen CS graduates who didn't feel comfortable programming. These are problems.
Then there is grade inflation. Which is fine if it corresponded to an increase in the skill level of graduates, but it doesn't. Because of the way student evaluations work, a professor who pushes students to work harder will end up with bad ratings. Too much homework? Bad rating. Hard tests? Bad rating. Whereas the clown teacher is entertaining, and gets a raise. Over time, there is evolutionary pressure downwards.
Then of course, students want to have fun in college. If I were designing a college, it would be like a monastery. Not many people would enjoy that, I admit. However, it encourages the universities to build new facilities, rock climbing gyms and saunas and such. Which aren't necessarily bad, but you can see these universities are not competing on the quality of their academics.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Many co-op opportunities are just there to exploit free or cheap labour.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
I think it mostly depends on what your degree is in. I'm a very recent graduate (May 2014) and I haven't had any difficulty finding work, and in fact have already had two major bumps in salary since starting. What I did, and what I think more people would benefit from, is to just play the job market like an economist would: Find a career field where the demand for workers exceeds the supply, and then do that. From there, expansion comes naturally (i.e. transferable skills, promotion, etc.) That said, if you go for a degree like art history or some crap that there's no actual demand for, then it's your own damn fault if you come out of school with craploads of debt and nothing to show for it.
Sure, there's something to be said for doing what you like to do, but not everybody wants what you like doing, nor should there be any societal expectation that one should just be able to make ends meet by doing anything they want. (Otherwise, watching pornography should be a high paying job.)
From where I sit, I do observe that certain jobs that people traditionally associate with being high skilled and high paying aren't necessarily high paying because the supply is much higher than the actual economic demand. This would include lawyers of basically all stripes, and certain kinds of engineers (namely, mechanical and aeronautical engineers.)
Almost everything I read in this thread is "Well, I got my degree. You OWE me a job."
Might I suggest getting a degree? Your reading comprehension skills would improve to the point where you could understand no one in this thread is saying that.
Instead, they are talking about the structural problem of too many people getting degrees due to societal and government promotion of degree programs and claims of shortages.
Or more simply, no one is saying they are owed a job. They are saying "everyone claimed this was the right path, and provided statistics and money to back up that claim. Turns out, it isn't true".
Just wrong. Saying the world doesn't owe you shit is something the haves say to assuage their conscience.
Old people aren't retiring. They can't. They were sold a bill of goods in the form of 401k/IRA/whatever your local flavor is and they can't afford it. That's because a) those programs were designed by the wealthy and don't work for middle class and b) everytime the economy crashes (every 10 years like clockwork after we repeal the regulations that were passed the last time it tanked) all your savings get wiped out.
I'll take most of your last two (shorter hours & nationalized benefits) but minimum wage is a necessity. It's _never_ affordable to hire employees if you ask employers. If you let them they'll make us all slaves and use the same rationalizations you did at the start of your rant to excuse it (suck it up, buttercup).
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You can't compete with countries such as India, where half the population don't have a toilet and the average wage is $10/day.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
I'm surprised that this issue isn't limited to the US. Canada's pretty much my #1 relocation destination if I had to pick another country -- hopefully they're not going fully down the "USA Lite" road the way the UK seems to be. The people are friendly and the climate is only going to get better as the temps start getting uncomfortably high further south.
Lots of people love to share anecdotal evidence of "lazy Millenials" studying Underwater Gender Studies and generally being unemployable. Having graduated eons ago in 1997, I can say it's legitimately different now than it was. Back then, even the Comparative Literature and Classics people were at least getting interviews. It was still the case that graduating with a bachelors' degree in anything was the entry ticket to any sort of corporate job. Employers knew they were getting raw material and trained them. Roll things back another 20 years and employers were training people straight out of high school. My wife works for a company that did this and just got taken over by MBAs -- there are a ton of people who only have a high school degree with 25+ years experience in senior positions, who are getting kicked out now, having never known another employer. Today, it seems the only employers who train people directly out of school are the management consulting firms, and that's basically because they don't want anyone who's learned habits anywhere else. The only ticket in is a high enough GPA in anything from an Ivy League school...everything else is taught.
I think the only thing that can fix this is a "detente" on both sides, borrowing a Cold War term. Employers need to accept that they're not getting a drop-in replacement for someone who leaves, no matter what the Indian consulting firm tells them. Employers need to understand that they need to develop employees if they don't want a bunch of mercenaries working for them. On the other side, employees need to stop job-hopping every 6 months and actually spend time to learn the business they work for. I'm one of those strange people who like working for the same company for long periods. As long as you don't let yourself stagnate it's a really positive thing in my opinion. I've been careful to move around and take work assignments that keep my skills fresh, but I've also built up a ton of industry knowledge that really helps me do my systems engineer/architect job better.
It doesn't guarantee a job, and it doesn't guarantee debt either. The summary says "education only guarantees debt, not a stable job." That's compete bullocks. Debt is 100% optional. Common, but entirely optional. I'll graduate with more money in the bank than when I started school.
I chose a state school in Texas. Actually it's state school in many states - Western Governor's University was started by 19 state governors. I originally chose WGU because a) I could do the work on my own schedule - there are no scheduled class times and b) it's cheap, $6000 / year, minus $1500 tax credit = $4500 / year. After I started I found out that it's even better than that. For many courses, the final exam is an industry certification such as Cisco CCNA. Two years into school, my certifications led to a job making almost twice as much as I was making when I started school.
My employer reimbursed $1500 / year of tuition, so after the tax credit my out-of-pocket cost for school is $1,500 / year meanwhile my income has already increased by $50,000 / year, so the day I graduate I'll have a lot more money than I did the day I started school.
I could have actually gotten the first year or so free, or for about $500. What you can do is study the material, such as CCNA material, before enrolling. You can watch YouTube courses, get books from eBay, etc. Then enroll after you've studied and get a year of credits in your first few weeks by taking the exams. In fact, for industry exams like CCNA you can take the exams before enrolling and WGU will give you credit for the course - you've already passed the final exam.
The other good surprise with WGU is that I can do most of my school work 10 minutes at a time, when I have nothing better to do for a few minutes. I study while I'm on the toilet or whatever. 10 minutes per day, three times a day, seven days per week will cover a good portion of the material. In other words - I get my degree by spending half as much time on Slashdot as I used to. :)
I may get my masters degree from Harvard Extension. That would cost me $20K, but I'd end up with a Harvard Master's degree. A master's from Harvard may increase my income by $10K-$20K per year, meaning it would pay for itself in just 1-2 years.
https://www.extension.harvard....
It's basic economics. They created a whole system to limit the supply and drive up the cost of maple syrup. What happens when the price of maple syrup goes up? The price of rum has to go up as well. Of course when the price of rum goes up your neighbourhood drunk can't afford it any more, so he switches to beer. That drives up the price of beer so the college student's can't afford it any more. So what happens when the dorm isn't properly lubricated? Sober college students study, get to bed, wake up in the morning and make to their exams on time, without a decent hangover. Now you've got all those young people passing their courses and graduating from University. How do we remedy this? You could break up the maple monopoly but there's a quicker and simpler solution. Hand out free beer.
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People who put more into their education than merely showing up for the required classes have always had an advantage.
Indeed. The guy in TFA did zero internships, participated in zero open source projects, zero side projects, and has done nothing to make himself stand out. Now he is pissed because it is "society's fault" that he isn't handed a job on a silver platter.
I hear this year after year about how college grads have a hard time finding jobs. When I got out of college, I was already well into my second decade of coding experience, and nobody wanted to hire me because nobody wants to hire a n00b with no professional experience. But I stuck to it and I took a few lousy jobs to build up my resume and get some experience. Years later, I make good money now as a dev, and I have no shortage of job offers. I feel like each generation goes through this, was there ever a group of kids that got instantly hired up fresh out of college without any effort?
There should be a final class that is mandatory before you graduate were they tell people that life isn't going to be handed to you on a silver platter, and that some degree of struggle is par for the course.
That being said, the next decade or so should really open things up in the job market as all the baby boomers really start dying in droves.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
You don't know what a co-op is do you?
Hint: It's not an unpaid internship.
That's exactly what co-op's are in most cases. There is no requirement for payment, and those that pay are very few and far between. I did two of them myself back in the 90's, one as a mechanic, another as a welder. Rather the co-op program has always been an extension of the trades programs in schools to allow the student to see if their choice was the "right fit" for them. It also allowed you to start collecting your hours as part of your apprenticeship. The 4h/day I did under the program I was under, allowed me to apply it directly to my mechanics apprenticeship. I was good enough that the person who took me on also hired me for full weekends, and when I graduated, I started my apprenticeship there.
The real problem for Canada's job markets though? There's multiple problems. First you have governments like the Liberals in Ontario, BC, Maritimes and NDP in Alberta who have anti-job policies. They raise taxes, gut programs for jobs that are highly in demand, and/or take on so much debt that businesses are wary around investing. Or you have governments like both the former Federal Conservatives and the current Liberals that love their "imported labor" programs. And would rather "spread the wealth" while people in Canada can't find work. It's pretty hard for anyone to justify the TFW program, in a province with 10% unemployment. But the Liberal Party sure does, even undoing some of the safeguards that the previous conservative government put into place.
Unlike the US and H1B's, in Canada no job is safe from a TFW. It doesn't matter if it's janitorial, or a skilled trade. If a company can figure out how to game the TFW system, lay you off, and replace you with someone they can pay the min. wage for vs say the $20-25/hr you currently work for, they will.
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There is no shortage in Toronto, which is an old rust belt city, across Lake Erie from Detroit. They would have much better opportunities in Vancouver. Instead of whining about not getting their perceived entitlement, these people need to be proactive and take some responsibility for their own future.
Disclaimer: I have lived, worked and pursued opportunities in four states and three countries.
Apparently never in Canada. Toronto has always been a "business city" aka white collar work and it's been like that since the 1800's when farming was pushed out and into the greenbelt. It's right on Lake Ontario, Lake Erie is ~150km away. Hamilton is an old rust belt city, it's where the steel mills were, it's where the cargo ports are, it's where the harbor is to make new ships. If they went to Vancouver they'd be in exactly the same spot as Toronto, but they'd be paying 4x the price for rent and double the price for food, and be struggling to make mortgage payments on a $500k/year salary.. If you want to get good money in STEM in Canada, you head to Alberta or Manitoba. Perhaps some areas of Quebec or the maritimes.
Disclaimer: I've worked in Ontario most of my life, outside of 5-24mo stints in the western provinces of Canada, and Singapore.
Om, nomnomnom...
III.V actually
rewriting history since 2109
The single most valuable thing I ever read in my life was a book on "How to write a great cover letter" (that may or may not have been the title - it was a long time ago).
But I remembered the advice in the book, and it has served me well. A great cover letter is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than a great CV, because that one paragraph is what determines whose CV's get read at all.
These days - the "cover letter' is the wording of the e-mail you attach your CV to. That's where you determine if the person whose job it is to filter out the time-wasters (most likely a professional head-hunter these days) will bother with your CV at all.
Once you have enough professional experience that stops mattering, recruiters start coming after you - and then you don't need to convince the company to read your CV anymore, the recruiters do that for you. But starting out - learn to write a good cover letter. In a few world tell them why you want the job, why you believe you'll be good at it and what makes you think you'll be a good fit for the company. Never go over one paragraph. Don't go into detail (that's what the CV is for). Just - very quickly - sell yourself as worth the time to read, by saying why you are excited to be applying.
Get the cover letter right - and you've won 90% of the battle - now you are only competing with the other 10% of people who got the cover letter right.
Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
Where the hell do you find the time or energy to do these things?
I'll try to be a gentle with this as I can. There are two fundamental things that need to be said here. First, unless you went to an ultra-competitive university, or were tracking a dual major / BS-MS program, Classes simply should not have taken that much effort. I know a lot of people who worked very hard for their degree, and most of them aren't worth much as employees go. Show me the kid who barely showed up to class at all and still graduated. Thats where I'll put my bet every time.
The second is that not all majors are created equal. If you have no idea what to go to school for, so you pick what seems like it will pay well, you might want to reconsider. In 5 years, the entire economic outlook can change dramatically. If you are very passionate about your chosen major, you can be successful even if the economy changes direction, but if you chose the major because you thought that was where the money is, you have chosen very poorly.
The Gentleman in the article who got his degree in mechanical engineering might or might not have had the wherewithal to know what was coming, but the reality is that the majority of mechanical engineers are employed by the transportation industry, and that industry is in the middle of an epic upheaval. The entire industry used to need huge numbers of mechanical engineers to design car, trucks, buses, planes, and every other damn thing. Now, CAD has gotten sophisticated enough that it has made the mechanical engineers out there 5 times more efficient meaning the companies only need 1/5 as many. Couple that with the impending transition from internal combustion to electric vehicles, and an entire generation of mechanical engineers has been trained for jobs that will never exist again.
TLDR: If you don't have passion for something then don't bother going to school for it. In todays economy all you will accomplish is six digit debt and no way to pay it off. Better to wait until you know what you want to do, and then go to school. You will be far better served, and might even be in a financial position to accomplish the job without sinking the first two decades of your career into soul crushing debt.
I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted