Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: How Would You Solve the Instant Messaging Problem?
Artem Tashkinov writes: The XKCD comics has posted a wonderful and exceptionally relevant post in regard to the today's situation with various instant messaging solutions. E-mail has served us well in the past, however, it's not suitable for any real-time communications involving video and audio. XMPP was a nice idea, however, it has largely failed except for a low number of geeks who stick to it. Nowadays, some people install up to seven instant messengers to be able to keep up with various circles of people. How do you see this situation being resolved?
People desperately need a universal solution which is secure, decentralized, fault tolerant, not attached to your phone number, protects your privacy, supports video and audio chats and sending of files, works behind NATs and other firewalls and has the ability to send offline messages. I believe we need a modern version of SMTP. [How would you solve the instant messaging problem?]
People desperately need a universal solution which is secure, decentralized, fault tolerant, not attached to your phone number, protects your privacy, supports video and audio chats and sending of files, works behind NATs and other firewalls and has the ability to send offline messages. I believe we need a modern version of SMTP. [How would you solve the instant messaging problem?]
If everyone stopped messaging on insecure lines, the problem would solve itself.
"People desperately need a universal solution which is secure, decentralized, fault tolerant, not attached to your phone number, protects your privacy, supports video and audio chats and sending of files, works behind NATs and other firewalls and has the ability to send offline messages."
I don't see the sense in that. There's so much evidence to the contrary.
May as well say people desperately need a universal language. May I interest you in Esperanto?
Obligatory XKCD
THere's already a solution for that: XMPP
The reason we don't see it is that the people that _are_ capable of supporting the necessary services behind it (like... for people that don't run their own servers) is that it's difficult to monetize. AIM dropped open support because too many folk use Adium or Pidgin with it, rather than the AIM client, and thus AOL couldn't push ads down it.
Google chat uses XMPP essentially... so if you want a well supported platform, that's it right there.
But more important, the requirements listed are simply out in left field. Video and audio are not instant messaging requirements. Video and audio are both, by their very nature, dealing in linear time. They cannot be "instant".
Cut back to a more realistic list of "instant messaging" and you have some hope of finding a solution. Perhaps accept that "secure" isn't as necessary, too. If you're dealing with top secret things, or assuming that a message that claims to be from your boss telling you to do something expensive or stupid RIGHT NOW, then maybe you shouldn't be "instant messaging" in the first place. Or at least not trying to shoehorn your critical security issues onto an application that most people don't need anywhere close to that level of security for.
This is pretty low on my list of wants. Lots of other shit way more important. How about a universal translator? That would be cool. Maybe if everyone could understand each other there would be less war, maybe? Eh
You obviously haven't read The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy:
“Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.”
There's no place like
The future is that the various walled gardens will become ever more powerful. So that you can use attachments, search messages, do everything with them that you can do with email. Why would kids want to bother with clunky uncool Email?
If you want to communicate with my daughters friends, you just by an iPhone so that you can use iMessage...
There is XMPP but there are too many vested interests.
Check out matrix.org. It is not only a rich IM solution with all the bells and whistles, including multi-devices end-to-end encryption, but Matrix also provides for bridges and proxies to other networks, so that it can be used to unify communication.
It's only 2.5 years old but has already come quite a way!
https://matrix.org/
echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:" net@madduck
If they are they will be willing to pay a dollar or two to buy and install a client and refuse to communicate with ad supported spyware. But privacy is over valued by a small section of techies, who shout very loudly. Most people sell their most private and intimate info about themselves for 25cents off a loaf of bread. For another 25cents they will sell info about you too.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Oh, someone already made a diagram explaining compat with matrix http://i.imgur.com/nfivrKQ.jpg :)
You could be that guy. You know the one: the one who tells all his friends "This is what I use. Use that to contact me, or e-mail me instead."
For the most part, I'm that guy. I use one IM program for personal use, and another for professional use (due to corporate mandate), and that's it. The only exception to this is as I do have a Facebook account, if someone wants to message me there I'll accept these messages as well -- when I'm at my computer and logged into the web interface. I have no intention of installing their Messenger client on my mobile devices.
Then again, I don't feel the need to have people messaging me all day. My messaging contacts list consists of about four immediate family members, and that's it. Guess I'm just not social enough for "social media" and IM (for that matter, I don't own a cell phone either. I go out not to be disturbed by IM and phone calls -- why would I take the annoyance with me?)
Yaz
The summary gives two good answers to its own question:
1. Use non-proprietary, open, universal protocols. There's a reason why SMTP works so well -- nobody owns it, everybody supports it. Unfortunately this provides no path for some entrepreneur to take over the Internet and become the next trillionaire, so nobody's going to put much work into making it into an easy one-click app. You may have to do some work yourself, both deploying and promoting your chosen solution.
2. Install seven apps. This seems to be the solution that most people prefer. If you need to be babysat by corporate nannies, then eat what you're served and enjoy it.
The problem isnt a technical one, it is a business one. More specifically, every business giving you a "FUCK YOU" attitude when it comes to interoperability with different platforms. Facebook Chat? That was XMPP. Google Chat? (that thing before Hangouts and Voice), also XMPP. Countless other systems out there are XMPP too. It works. It works GREAT. There pretty much wasn't anything wrong with it. Then businesses were like "FUCK YOU", and decided they didn't want to cooperate anymore, and so it died.
If you go back to the RFC, you'll find SAML and SOML as smtp keywords: they mean deliver as mail or immediate message (unix write(1)) or as both mail and IM.
davecb@spamcop.net
We have no instant messaging problem. We just have a robust constellation of competing systems, serving different communities. Why is that as problem?
- My teen has a Snapchat community, an Instagram community, as Facebook community, a Pinterest community she hides from me, a Twitter community she denies, an SMS constellation, and a variety of less visible communities gathered around video, music, photo, and mixed media paradigms. Some of the members overlap and are pasrt of several communities, some of these communities serve specific purposes, some are flash mobs instantiating and disappearing quickly. She manages her various communities by platform sometimes. These are 'where she is' at any given moment, sometimes in more than one place at a time. Oh, and she has email too. Several of them.
- I don't want a messaging platform mixing my Facebook and G+ communities. Leave them separate. Some overlap occurs, but I can manage that.
- SMS is not very useful on my desktop PC You want to do some Universal Inbox of 'Follow Me' concept for 'messaging'? Please don't.
- I get messages from entities also. When Amazon delivers an order to me, I get SMS, an email, An Amazon app notification. I got one when it was scheduled for delivery. And when it was 'shipped'. And when it was ordered. I get 12 messages for that one order. If I ordered multiple items from different fulfillers, add 9 messages for each different fulfillment channel. It pollutes my life. I turn some of them off, and they creep back in. Multiple apps send me notifications. They are 'messaging' me. Some let me turn off notificaiotns, abnd they keep right on sending them. Some 'apologize', they blame their own app, most ignore me. The cost of 'free' is real.
- I rarely use or send videos. They are horribly inefficient for simple, spoken or written communication that does not require visuals, and I loathe how-to videos that waste 70% of their duration on establishing shots, personal anecdotes, uncomfortable drivel, wasted time and noise. Give me a step-by-step please. A list.
- Email is highly underrated, still. I carry on conversations in email very well if the correspondents keep up. At work I get IMs from the loathsome Skype For Business client I'm given, and despite the 'instant' intention people regularly turn away and let a chat linger for minutes. Instant is the behavior, not the app. Email is better than you think.
- I'm guessing the real complaint is having to manage the address books, friend lists, etc. that these platforms use. I refuse to use my Facebook/Linkdin/Google Contacts to log into multiple platforms. I don't want to share my contact info in Facebook with my Linkedin community. Or with Google, G+, Pinterest, etc. I have good reasons to keep separate communities separate.
We do NOT have a problem with proliferation of messaging platforms. If you think you do, leave some of them. Everyone you deal with online is either a member of more than one of your communities, or they are as member of one you will keep.
No problem.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
The only reason XMPP failed was cause everyone (ie: Google, Facebook, etc) cared more about user capture than interoperability. This is all the more obvious considering that they HAD support for it, but then killed it off for no reason.
XMPP supported almost everything except possibly real-time video. Well, apparently the protocol itself *does* support it, but because no one actually cares, it's never seen the light of day. At least I haven't.
Everyone conveniently ignores the fact that because HTTP was a universal standard, it allowed a *ridiculous* variety of tools and systems to be developed on top of it. The internet as it exists today, wouldn't, if not for that ubiquitous standard.
But as usual, lessons in history pale to short term profits.
Email has different design priorities than instant messaging, which is why all of these instant mesaaging protocols were created after email was already popular. Possibly the biggest difference is that email is designed to be reliable rather than instant - when a hop is down, it'll keep trying for hours or days. Your email client checks for new messages every ten minutes or so - that's much more efficient, and obviously very much not instant.
You mention a field something like "preference: instant" which would presumably cause all of the servers involved to use some different protocol. At that point it's no longer email.
Or, just use SMS that works with everyone everywhere
Except for landline-using members of my family.
XMPP sucked for a few more reasons:
1) It is traffic heavy.
2) Presence notification causes immense loads on large chats.
3) Often 3rd parties implemented support poorly (ie: Facebook, Star Trek: Online, AIM didn't provide federation support, limited client support, Google dropped federation, gateways often half assed implemented etc).
4) Didn't support websockets (had to use BOSH), although RFC 7395 has come to change it, it's a little too late considering people are dropping it now.
5) Not designed for mobile phones in mind, transitive states, notification systems etc.
6) This might sound bad... But, I really had problems finding a decent XMPP client that someone who isn't very technically inclined wouldn't find irritating to start with (compared to using Skype or Telegram).
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
Instead of having a new messaging app, just have a contact app that remembers what app you use to get in touch with everyone. When you want to message someone, the contact app will open the relevant messaging app for you. Receiving messages can happen through your phone's/PC's notification system, so it's not so much of a problem.
That's the solution. It's well documented, it's a federated protocol, it's already here.,
Of course, you need to convince Google to restore it and people to give it a try (again).
With the Google part being very important!
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
There is an old saying: The heretic is the person who has nearly the same belief than you.
Your post reminds me of this:
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. I immediately ran over and said "Stop! Don't do it!"
"Why shouldn't I?" he said.
I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"
"Like what?"
"Well ... are you religious or atheist?"
"Religious."
"Me too! Are you Christian or Jewish?"
"Christian."
"Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"
"Protestant."
"Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"
"Baptist."
"Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"
"Baptist Church of God."
"Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"
"Reformed Baptist Church of God."
"Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?"
"Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!"
To which I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.