Hundreds of Verified Twitter Accounts Compromised, Post Swastikas, Pro-Erdogan Content (bloomberg.com)

From a report on Bloomberg: At least 25 verified international Twitter accounts (Editor's note: other outlets are saying the number is in hundreds) have posted content supporting Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan in his feud with Germany and the Netherlands, with hashtags reading, in Turkish, "NaziGermany" and "NaziHolland." The accounts that were hacked include international news organizations such as the German newspaper Die Welt, Forbes Magazine, BBC North America, and Reuters Japan. It also targeted the Twitter accounts of the European Parliament, French politicians like Alain Juppe, Sprint Corp's CEO and President Marcelo Claure, among others. Gizmodo adds:It was an incredibly bad week for Dutch-Turkish relations. Turkish voters go to the polls next month on April 16th to decide whether President Erdogan should be given more powers. In the lead up to this vote, Turkish diplomats in the Netherlands had been speaking at Dutch rallies to Turkish ex-pats in support of the referendum. But Dutch officials prevented the Turkish ministers from speaking, causing a dust-up between the two countries. [...] Even where some of the tweets have been deleted, the banner image of the Turkish flag sometimes remains, like on the account for Starbucks Argentina.Twitter said in a statement, "We are aware of an issue affecting a number of account holders this morning. Our teams are working at pace and taking direct action on this issue. We quickly located the source which was limited to a third party app. We removed its permissions immediately."

Comments

The real problem

[Aethedor]

This shows the real problem. The problem with a dictator is not the dictator himself, but the amount of people allowing and even supporting him to be a dictator.

Re:The real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the problem is also the dictator himself. Anyway, Turkey is fucked. Erdogan is leading his people backwards straight into previous century and it will take at least 50 years to recover him.

Re:The real problem

[Opportunist]

Seriously, if Ataturk was still alive, he'd kick that SOBs ass SO fucking hard that he'd land next Tuesday from the kick.

Re:The real problem

[hey!]

Well... sure. I can call myself dictator of the world but if nobody else agrees with me it doesn't matter. The question is how do dictators get people to agree to give them power. And over years of watching them and reading about them, my conclusion is bullshit.

Bullshit is a lie that isn't for believing; it's for going along with. A lot of diplomacy is a kind of constructive bullshit.

Now it should be clear that all politicians bullshit. The ones who do it the least are contemptuously dismissed as "professorial" or "technocratic". Bullshit is an essential part of political discourse: we want a politician to inspire us, which is just another way of saying we want him to bullshit us. Classic example:

We choose to go to the Moon! We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard...

Taken on its own, this could be the finest piece of political bullshit ever uttered. But taken in context, Kennedy is making a coherent and rational point: liberal democracies must seize control of progress and direct it toward peaceful ends, that this will harness the ambition and competitive instincts of people and put them to constructive use.

And that's the difference between dictatorial bullshit and leadership bullshit: whether or not context matters. Dictators freely contradict themselves and their followers don't mind because all that matters is how the bullshit makes them feel in the moment. One of the most compelling historical figures for me is Joseph Goebbels, who was probably the most intelligent and certainly most educated member of the Nazi regime. He was also a man consumed by bullshit, even though it was the very bullshit he as propaganda minister was in charge of manufacturing. He had a sophisticated understanding of how bullshit works.

This suggests to me that what people need is training, not in critical thinking but critical feeling. It's not enough to be able not to be fooled; you have to want not to be fooled. You have to be able to reject something that makes you feel good because it is false.

Re: The real problem

[Opportunist]

Dude, the only "Hitler" in the whole spiel is Erdogan himself. The law he tries to push through has a lot in common with Hitler's "Ermächtigungsgesetz" that turned Germany back then into a dictatorship.

If that law passes, he's basically dictator for life.

Re: The real problem

[Grishnakh]

The similarity doesn't stop there. Hitler and his Nazis were big fans of genocide, obviously. Well, the Turks are too, since they refuse to admit that their murder of millions of Armenians was genocide.

Turks are looking more like Nazi-era Germans every day.

Expats?

[johannesg]

They have been living in the Netherlands for three generations already. Some were born in the Netherlands, of one or even two parents that were also born in the Netherlands. Of course they still speak Turkish, have a Turkish passport (and a Dutch one), serve in the Turkish military (and the Dutch parliament if they want to), watch Turkish TV, eat Turkish food, and go to Turkish supermarkets and Turkish mosques, where they get indoctrinated by Diyanet - the Turkish ministery of religious affairs. And if their government wishes to speak to them, but the evil white oppressors forbid that, they go out and riot throughout the conquered province in the name of Erdogan and allah.

Yet somehow we are all supposed to pretend they are also Dutch people that are perfectly well integrated into Dutch society. Now tell me why I should NOT vote Wilders (the Dutch Trump).

Re:Expats?

[johannesg]

He wants to forbid dual citizenship. They can stay, but they will have to choose to either be fully Dutch, or fully Turkish - no longer both. In the first case they can act as citizens of the Netherlands (with all rights and duties associated with that). In the second case they will be considered permanent foreign residents. That means they can no longer vote in the national elections, are not eligible for some functions, and if found guilty of a crime, can be deported to their country of origin.

Obviously, Turkey must agree to striking citizenship for those who choose to be Dutch (that means no more service in the Turkish army, among other things). And should Turkey choose to not cooperate - well, that really leaves only one choice then, doesn't it?

As for "reasonable integration plans", we have tried those for the last three generations. What makes you think such a thing can work _at all_? The group is large enough that it can easily form Turkish enclaves where contact with Dutch people is not necessary (so there is no pressure to integrate), and there is considerable financial and religious support from Turkey to retain their original cultural identity. That's kind of a tough fight, isn't it?

Re:Expats?

[dunkelfalke]

Because it will mark you as very much the same as the people you despise, simple as that. The name of the religion or the nationalist you are voting for doesn't matter, the outcome is the same, the policies similar enough, the angry mobs alike.

Re:Expats?

[Freischutz]

They have been living in the Netherlands for three generations already. Some were born in the Netherlands, of one or even two parents that were also born in the Netherlands. Of course they still speak Turkish, have a Turkish passport (and a Dutch one), serve in the Turkish military (and the Dutch parliament if they want to), watch Turkish TV, eat Turkish food, and go to Turkish supermarkets and Turkish mosques, where they get indoctrinated by Diyanet - the Turkish ministery of religious affairs. And if their government wishes to speak to them, but the evil white oppressors forbid that, they go out and riot throughout the conquered province in the name of Erdogan and allah.

Yet somehow we are all supposed to pretend they are also Dutch people that are perfectly well integrated into Dutch society. Now tell me why I should NOT vote Wilders (the Dutch Trump).

You could say all the same things about American and Dutch Jews who hold Israeli passports. I'm not trying to dump on Jews, they can speak Hebrew, have an Israeli passport (and an Amercan one), serve in the Israeli military (and run for the US Congress or Dutch parliament if they want to), watch Israeli TV, eat Jewish food, and go to Jewish delicatessen markets and Jewish Synagogues, where they may or may not (depending on their choice of Synagogue) get indoctrinated by Zionist activists supported by the Israeli government. I just wonder why it's OK for Israeli-Americans or Israeli-Netherlanders to do all of these things but not Turkish-Netherlanders?

Re: Expats?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, this is fundamentally wrong and it's the fatal mistake that Western liberals have made and now refuse to acknowledge.

The concepts of freedom of religion and beliefs has progressively been equated to equality of religion and beliefs over the years, without anyone ever stopping to really think that statement through.

Western, Judeo-Christian culture is not "equal" - for lack of a better word - to that of Islamic culture. This is self-evident when you compare the stark differences between the Western world and the Middle East, or any of the pre-dominantly Muslim countries in Asia.

The West has seen the abolition of slavery, legal rights for citizens, elected, secular governments, equality of men and women, freedom of speech and religion. These principles have helped establish the many advances we have had in society, such as distribution of wealth, universal education, accessible healthcare and an effective legal and political system. The tangible results of these advances need not be named - just consider what you're looking at right now.

It is a sad reality that Islamic societies of the Middle East and Asia have seen either none or very little of this, with a clear, inverse correlation between "progress" and the degree of theological involvement in society. This is unlikely to be a coincidence.

I should be clear, I'm not saying these two cultures - or perhaps certain aspects of them - are incompatible in any way, just different and we need to acknowledge that difference: European/American nationalists are not "just as bad" or "the same" as Islamists in our society and it is a very dangerous mistake to try and kid yourself that they are.

Re:Expats?

[Tranzistors]

Thanks for clarification. If plan is to remove dual citizenship, I can share experience of my country, Latvia. We too have large community of people who don't integrate that well — Russians. We have never allowed dual citizenship to begin with., but just forcing to choose one passport does not help. Most likely most of Turks will choose Dutch passport (since they live there and it is a more wealthy), they will still be able to live in enclaves, watch Turkish news, eat Turkish food and all that just like before.

However, you could be more explicit on “that really leaves only one choice then, doesn't it?”.

Re: Expats?

[dunkelfalke]

It is not self evident because you are cherry-picking your examples. To prove you wrong I just have to name one counter-example and it is modern Russia. Most of the recent crazy laws there were sponsored by Christian fundamentalists and the country is nowadays less secular than Erdogan's Turkey.

Your mistake is a perfect example of survivorship bias. You see certain wealthy countries and think that they are wealthy because of a certain attribute they have - in your case the attribute is the Judeo-Christian culture. What you ignore are the countries with a similar or the same culture that fail to prosper (several countries in Latin and South America would be examples) and countries with a different culture that are prosperous (Japan, South Korea, Singapore). Matter of fact, Indonesia - a predominantly Muslim country - is more successful than quite a lot Christian countries.

And yeah, I still don't see any real difference between Turkish nationalists and our very own Neonazis, except maybe the skin colour.

Turkey is in trouble.

[Falconhell]

Erdogan is their May, Trump or Turnbull, leading them bacwards into the past, whilst behaving like spoied children.
The great Turkish leader, Kemal Attaturk would be spinning in his grave.
Thanks Obama!

Re:Turkey is in trouble.

[swb]

A common criticism of Obama that seems to transcend political wings has been his tepid foreign policy behavior. Lines in the sand in Syria, weak responses to Erdogan, and so on.

My sense is that Obama is a kind of purposefully analytical leader who only makes measured responses if, and only if, in-depth analysis shows them to be worthwhile. I think this is good on paper and in a lot of situations doing nothing isn't the worst possible choice relative to its nominal cost.

That being said, global foreign policy is a stage where bold leadership has a value that seems to be beneficial even when its outcomes are suboptimal. In so many cases it kind of boils down to a dealing-with-bullies psychology, where the bullies don't back off unless you bloody their noses.

Would the situation in Syria, in total, be worse if Obama had responded to Assad's use of chemical with strikes on his residences or key military assets in response to his chemical weapons use? Might it have undermined Assad enough that he had to settle somehow, or even possibly killed him and prevented the final siege in Aleppo?

The real problem is ISALM

[Chrisq]

The real problem is ISALM. That's why so many Muslims want to turn their back on Ataturk's dream of a modern, secular Turkey and make it yet another Sharia hell-hole.

Re:The real problem is ISALM

[Anonymous Coward]

I really don' t see what the International Symposium Advances in Legal Medicine has to do with the issue.

Re:The real problem is ISALM

[Freischutz]

The real problem is ISALM. That's why so many Muslims want to turn their back on Ataturk's dream of a modern, secular Turkey and make it yet another Sharia hell-hole.

The problem is not Islam by it self, it's what we in the software business call rotten 'legacy code' common to all Abrahamic religions, Islam, Judaism and Christianity. They all have the same problematic common legacy of misogynism, violence, homophobia and intolerance. People talk as if Islam is all hate and Christianity is all hugs, kisses and fluffy bunny rabbits but in reality you don't have to search very long for bible passages like Deuteronomy 22:13-21 to which the bible thumpers usually respond that Christians don't follow such hateful passages in the bible and (my favourite christian snowflake argument) the hateful old testament laws are "only for Jews" (amazing how quickly the followers of the religion of hugs kisses and fluffy bunny rabbits revert to medieval antisemitism) which leads us to Matthew 5:17-18. But I think we've had enough fun with scripture. Let's address your main argument that the problem is Islam. What the hell makes you think that all Christians disregard bronze age laws about stoning or otherwise abusing and suppressing women (just to cite one example) but that all Muslims gleefully embrace such commandments instead of ignoring them like many Christians apparently do because that's what you just insinuated, i.e. that all Muslims religiously (pun not intended) follow passages in the Quaran requiring them to practice barbaric reprisals (similar to ones found in the bible) against people who break religious laws and commandments and just for your information: millions of Muslims don't do that and would, for example, not dream of stoning a woman.

Re:The real problem is ISALM

[Kiuas]

Getting rid of Islam won't solve the issue. Just look at Russia, asshats like Erdogan or Putin can use stupid peoples desire for strong leadership and simple solutions to get into power and remove and resemblance of democracy without relying on religion.

Exactly. More to the point 'getting rid of islam' is itself something that paves the way for authoritarianism. I mean, we're essentially talking about banning beliefs and an ideology. This is the definition of thought crime and pretty much the least liberal thing one could do. If this is done, if we admit that the state has the power to regulate what people are allowed to believe, then the banning of other ideologies and other thoughts can naturally follow. Both Turkey and Russia have laws in place right now which criminalize critiquing the ruling powers. Trump is talking about media as 'the opposition party' because the media dares to highlight when he's not using facts.

Wahabbism treats those who oppose it as enemies of god. Right wing demagogs replace god with the nation state and deem those in opposition to them as 'enemies of the state', or 'un-*insert national adjective*'. Two sides of the same coin.

Re:The real problem is ISALM

[Nidi62]

The real problem is ISALM. That's why so many Muslims want to turn their back on Ataturk's dream of a modern, secular Turkey and make it yet another Sharia hell-hole.

My argument is always this: Islam is roughly 600 years younger than Christianity. Look at where Christianity was 600 years ago. Inquisitions, witch hunts, regular mass killings of Jews, regular armed conflict between believers of different sects, strict and oppressive interpretations of religion and law, etc. All things that we are basically seeing now with Islam. Take Christianity of the 14th/15th Century and put it in the 20th/21st Century and you would see something that looks a lot like extremist Islam. You want to fix it, you don't try to shut down all things Islam. That just fuels the fire. Instead, you have to embrace and support the moderate elements within Islam, as they are the only ones that can bring Islam out of the dark ages and transform it into a more modern religion. Unfortunately, there are too many people on both sides who derive profit and power through the fear and hate of Islam, so it seems as if is going to take longer and longer for that to happen.

Re:The real problem is ISALM

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

Wahabbism treats those who oppose it as enemies of god. Right wing demagogs replace god with the nation state and deem those in opposition to them as 'enemies of the state', or 'un-*insert national adjective*'. Two sides of the same coin.
You stopped short, you forgot that left wing authoritarians do the same thing only declare enemies of the people or the revolution. It is a common tactic among all authoritarians, delegitimize your enemies, whether it be by declaring them mentally unsound or just hateful bigots who opinions can be ignored or censored. That sounds familiar.

Re:The real problem is ISALM

[gtall]

Yes...and no. Muslims are generally well-disposed to Sharia as a political system while the other two are not well disposed to religion as a political system. I suspect the reason is the greater abuse in the other two in years past. Now that reformation has taken place in the sense that the Bible Thumpers are running the show (doesn't prevent them from trying, however), Islam is looking worse for wear.

The problem becomes apparent in the political systems of many Muslim countries and the tyranny of the majority in places like Malaysian and Indonesia. Islam as a political construct is old, creaking, and cannot keep up with the hopes of the younger generations. The problem for them is they have no real alternative "in their bones" so to speak. Their only exposure to political leadership is to their local mosque leaders who will be damned if they are gong to give up the delights of telling everyone else what to do.

It doesn't help that many societies in the Mid-East are tribal. That only gives political Islam a guaranteed divide and conquer strategy. With everyone fighting like that, no one notices the deal the central governments have with Islam, i.e., keep'em fighting and keep local politics local so the people do not notice our incompetence.

Re:The real problem is ISALM

[Mashiki]

The reality is Christianity went through this phase. Remember that in the US, the majority of founding fathers weren't Christians but deists. You jump further back, and you had the same reasoning within Christianity. Reform or else vs "we're perfect" and the enlightenment phase. The real question is, do you feel the same way with Nazism? After all it's an ideology, it's banned in most countries.

Trump calls the media the "opposition party" because the media is very happy to lie when it suits their cause. Either directly, or lies through omission. His statement isn't just his own, it's a reflection of the public in the west in general of their absolute distrust of the media. It doesn't matter if it's the US, Canada, France or the UK. A majority of the population distrust the mainstream press and the press created the situation all by themselves.

Right wing demagogs replace god with the nation state and deem those in opposition to them as 'enemies of the state', or 'un-*insert national adjective*'. Two sides of the same coin.

And left wing demagogues replace god with communism, Leninism, collectivism and so on. Openly advocate against free speech, peaceful assembly, and so on. Horseshoe theory in action, the only difference is that in the west you're unlikely to see your belief come to fruition -- unless there's been decades of one particular ideology holding institutional power, and actively working against the voting public or engaging in policies that actively damage the voting public. You should be joyous that Trump was elected, because his solutions will be far worse then in another decade. If you need your canary in the coalmine, I suggest looking in Sweden. Where the media and politicians lie, and people who report the truth are charged/jailed/threatened for doing so. Keep in mind, that Sweden isn't right-wing but those left-wing policies will ensure that the backlash will be something exceptionally bad -- because only those "far right" groups are the ones listening to people.

Re:The real problem is ISALM

[Killall -9 Bash]

Apologist!

Re:The real problem is ISALM

[Kiuas]

The real question is, do you feel the same way with Nazism? After all it's an ideology, it's banned in most countries.

Yes, I do feel the same way about it. We're currently having a court-case coming here in Finland wherein the local (very small) nazi party is probably going to be banned because the party itself holds to principles which are against the constitution. I agree with that as well. See, in my view, it should not be a crime to just hold an opinion, and it isn't. That is, being a nazi, or being an islamist, is not and cannot be a crime but this doesn't mean nazi-organizations should be tolarated any more than we should tolerate jihadists groups. Actions - such as running a group based on violence - can be penalized, mere thoughts and opinions cannot.

you need your canary in the coalmine, I suggest looking in Sweden

As a Finn that lives next to sweden, speaks some of the language and has some friends there I suspect your idea of what exactly is going on in Sweden is not accurate. Sweden has had and is having some immigration related problems which are caused primarily by 2 things: the way they handled the housing and education reform has lead to the rise of suburbs with predominantly immigrant populations. This has made integration harder, leading to higher unemployment which in turn generally leads to increased crime, especially organized crime. So gang activity in immigrant-heavy areas is up, similarly to the situation in some american inner cities, But crime overall has not skyrocketed.

Violent crime in sweden has been relatively steady throughout the 2000s and is in fact down from the 70s and 80s. There's been a lot of talk made about the rape statistics coming from sweden but these numbers are hugely inflated by 2 factors: they changed the definition of rape to include many things that in other countries get charged under sexual harassment and more importantly the way they track the numbers differs from most other countries in that each incident of rape is counted separately. So if someone reports their boss as having sexually harassed them once a week for a year, it's possible that this is recorded as 52 incidents of suspected rape instead of as 1 case of sexual harassment as it would be in many other places.

Now this is a result of the left in sweden being more bent on the SJW-rhetoric than in most other places. So those blaming the left in sweden for the increased stats on rape are indeed correct, but the reason for this is not because rapes on the streets by raving jihadists gangs have suddenly exploded, it's that they've defined rape so broadly now, the rough translation of the current definition is: "The sexual act can be intercourse, but also other sexual acts because of coercion or other circumstances are serious offensive can lead to a person being convicted of rape. Anyone who exploits someone who is asleep, unconscious, drunk or under the influence of another drug, mentally disturbed, sick or otherwise is in a particularly vulnerable situation is also convicted of rape."

but those left-wing policies will ensure that the backlash will be something exceptionally bad -- because only those "far right" groups are the ones listening to people.

Well, I wouldn't say it's looking like there'll be a major 'backlash' right now. Even with the recent influx of refugees, the average of the recent polls puts the rightmost populist party (Sweden Democrats) at approximately 20 % support. They currently have 49 seats in the parliament. Getting 20 % of the votes would increase that to around 70 which is an increase but it's still a far cry from them winning the lection or even getting to form a government.

Re:The real problem is ISALM

[Bongo]

This is the big issue, and whilst the monotheistic abrahamic religions are all basically the same, they are also somewhat different. And a big debate is whether those differences matter or not. Some people, Moslem Islamic academics, argue that it is not reformable the way Christianity was. Some argue that the natural progress of authoritarian to modern is a natural developmental process which will unfold for all societies sooner or later.

Of course, a bigoted view will simply paint all with the same brush. The debate for modern liberals though, is more about, how do you estimate how many percent of the hundreds of millions or billions, will tend over the decades, towards a reformed Islam? I don't think anyone can answer that.

There are arguments that, Jesus did something very strange (if he existed), namely, he inserted the idea of personal freedom into what would otherwise be an authoritarian and dogmatic imperialistic religion. He was Buddha for the West. And that kernel eventually helped the empire (Christianity) fall. Whereas other branches of the monotheistic belief didn't have that. There's the argument that Islam is "wholistic" ie. covers everything and hasn't had the necessary separation of church and state which Europe discovered was necessary after decades of wars. There's also the argument that the obsession with purity is part of a "all or nothing" view in Islam which is uncompromising, totalitarian, and without compromise, there can be no modern culture or model. (Moslems themselves write books stating this). Plus Jesus was never a tribal warrior. So many argue that there are differences and they do matter. But those are all opinions.

I think life goes on and I'm a big believer in change being chaotic and unexpected, so regardless of how many reasons there are for why "Islam is different", I figure it'll change as everything changes, in an evolutionary way.

Re:The real problem is ISALM

[lucasnate1]

the other two are not well disposed to religion as a political system.

I don't about jews in general, but as an israeli jew, I can tell you that there are plenty of people here who want religion to play a stronger part in our government. In Israel marrige and divorce must go through a rabbi, and there are parties whose size is roughly one sixth (the biggest party in general is one quarter) that define themselves as "religious parties". It is feasible that Israel might become "sharia-lite - jewish version" at some point.

Re:The real problem is ISALM

[Maritz]

Agreed. What the "alt-right" and other associated dickheads fail to realise is that going after moderate muslims is precisely what the likes of IS want to see happen. They like to see things like the veil ban in France. Anything that adds to their propaganda.

The best thing to do is to ignore them in terms of public attention, and quietly go after them with law enforcement. Being politicised and seen as a boogey man is again precisely what they are after.

This is basically another way of saying that the shrill, panicky anti-muslim sentiment is actually just... dumb. Stupid as fuck.

Then you have the likes of Trump, Sarkozy etc - bigging them up and talking endlessly about how scary they are. They are bigger allies of IS than they realise.

Re:The real problem is ISALM

[Jason Levine]

As an American Jew, I see the efforts to give religion a stronger role in the USA's government and it frightens me. First of all, the religion that's pushed is always Christianity so I'd become a second class citizen unless I decided to worship Christ. Not that I'd support it if Judaism was the "official religion", mind you, because of my second point which is that I've seen where "Religion And State Are Mixed" ends up and it's never good. Historically speaking, we Americans fled from such a system. (The King of England ran the Church of England and you basically needed to be a member of that church to participate in government.) The Founding Fathers wisely saw the problems with this and wanted a Separation of Church and State. They didn't want religion mucking in government or vice versa. Which brings me to the third point. Anyone who wants to mix religion and government is foolish because it goes both ways. Do you really want the GOVERNMENT having a say in how you worship? Or telling you what your clergy must do to be Official Government Church Clergy? Or how your holidays are celebrated? I would think that the same people who want government out of their lives in other aspects would be frightened about having the government dictate their religious practices. Of course, looping back to my first point, when people in favor of this picture "church and state mixed", they picture THEIR form of religion running the show. Replace their religion with someone else's, though, and suddenly they're opposed to this horrible government overreach. As long as they get to impose their will on others, it's fine but they won't stand for anyone else doing the same to them.

Re:The real problem is ISALM

[Kiuas]

If your country is suffering grenade attacks in public places, you have a serious problem. If a particular segment of the population is directly responsible for that, then you also have a problem.

Of course. But this is something the Swedes themselves admit. The authorities admit that gang acitivyt has increased and become more violent which is a problem. Keep in mind though, the immigrants responsible for organized crime tend not to be muslims as much as they're from eastern Europe/former yugoslavia area. Running drugs and guns tends to be the area of the mafia, which does not traditionally mingle with muslims.

Now, Sweden's own crime reports says crime is going up. It [www.bra.se] doesn't [www.bra.se] what [www.bra.se] area of crime you're looking at, whether it be petty or violent. They've all gone up,

If you look at the stats for 2016 there's been an increase from 2015, but that's because 2015 saw a decline in crime.

“What criminologists do is to look at the 10-year, 20-year development. Then we can see the trends. Year to year, it’s impossible to judge why changes occur,” he added.

An example of a figure from Brå’s statistics which paints one picture in isolation but a different one with further context is that the number of rapes reported in Sweden increased by 13 percent in 2016 to 6,560.

But when that number is compared to 2014, where the number of reported rapes was 6,700, then a slight decrease can actually be seen. In other words, the number of reported rapes in Sweden dipped in 2015 (down by 12 percent to 5,920) then in 2016 it returned to around the same level as 2014.

Seen over a ten-year period, the number of reported rapes has gone up from 4,208 in 2006, partly because of legislative changes in the previous year and in 2013 broadening the definition, according to Brå.

According to Brå's figures, 10,500 incidents of sexual molestation were reported in the country in 2016 – a striking increase of 20 percent on 2015 (when 8,840 were reported).

But once again, 2015 was a year when reported sexual molestation had dropped significantly – it was down by eight percent that year compared to 2014, when 9,640 incidents were reported.

“The number of crimes reported can depend very much on the propensity to report,” Sarnecki noted.

“In 2016 for instance there was a lot of discussion about sexual assault and the relation between sexual assault and immigration. We know through research that those kind of years with more discussion of those subjects see the number of crimes reported increase.”

"The problem with explaining these figures is that very many variables not necessarily related to crime impact the figures. You have to be very careful, in particular if you look at changes on a year-to-year basis," he concluded.

(Source

Noting that from their own statistics estimated unreported sexual crimes have gone from ~160k/year to nearly 500k/year in a decade. That's not the : "The sexual act can be intercourse, but also other sexual acts because of coercion or other circumstances are serious offensive can lead to a person being convicted of rape." That's the violent assault of a person aka actual rape.

[CITATION NEEDED]

What information do you have to back up your claim that this estimate is not affected by the broadening of the definition of rape and the way the stats are calculated?

20% of the voting public isn't a statistically insignificant number.

I never said it was. I simply said that even at that level of polling it's far from clear at this point that they'll be able to win the elections and form a government.

Re:The real problem is ISALM

[lucasnate1]

Excellent point, I forgot about this part, but it's correct, Israel, despite being considered racist/facist/whatever is actually more multi cultural than many eurpoeans countries, TOO multi cultural in this case.

Re:The real problem is ISLAM

[KiloByte]

People assume that Islam is just a kind of Christianity with a different brand and a few ceremonies swapped. It's not. The Bible is a big honking pile of contradictions, making cherry-picking not only permitted but the only possible way to worship it. You also need a lot of doublethink, but if you got conditioned to it as a child, you take it for granted and accept as normal.

The Koran, on the other hand, is consistent. Instead of being made of a bunch of different books from over a thousand years written by different authors of different religions (Yahvism of 800BC was a tribal polytheism, Christianity as created in early 2nd century AD based mostly on Platonism (with little heed to an illiterate itinerant preacher Yehoshuah) flavoured with myths from all around have nothing in common), Islam is the work of one man. (Not counting nameless scribes, no one ever credits them.) That man was not Muhammad but Uthman who sifted through tales about the former, took what he liked and banned at the pain of death anything else. And Uthman's work was pretty thorough for standards of the time: the biggest contradiction in Islam is permissiveness of alcohol, with everything else being either a literary device ("how long is a day of Allah?") or a mythological quirk (is Iblis an angel or a djinn?).

And with this consistent message, that tells you to murder the infidels at all cost, there's no wonder a portion of worshippers actually believe their holy book. It takes far more dishonesty to cherry-pick from Koran than it is from the Bible.

That some orange clown goes about it wrong (banning people because of their nationality at birth!?!) doesn't make Islam any more compatible with the civilized world.

You forgot the Fascist+Inquisition bits...

[denzacar]

http://www.geertwilders.nl/ind...

This is what the PVV will do:

1. De-islamize the Netherlands
- Zero asylum seekers and no immigrants anymore from Islamic countries: close the borders
- Withdraw all asylum residence permits which have already been granted for specific periods, close the asylum centers
- No Islamic headscarves in public functions
- Prohibition of other Islamic expressions which violate public order
- Preventive detention of radical Muslims
- Denaturalization and expulsion of criminals with a dual nationality
- Jihadists who went to Syria will not be allow to return to the Netherlands
- Close all mosques and Islamic schools, ban the Koran
2. The Netherlands independent again. Leave the EU
3. Direct democracy: a binding referendum, power to the citizens
4. Completely abolish health care deductibles
5. Lower housing fees
6. Retirement age at 65, indexation of supplementary pensions
7. No public money for development aid, windmills, art, innovation, broadcasting, etc.
8. Rollback cuts in home care and elderly care, more hands on the bed
9. A lot of extra money for defense and police
10. Lower income taxes
11. Halving of car taxes

Banning books, closing churches, abolishing healthcare, canceling representative democracy while amassing more power, militarization + police state, no more public money for freeloaders like artists, engineers, media and "etc." - but hey... free money and cheap cars!
And according to his back of the envelope calculation - it will cost nothing.
He actually tries to balance the budget by guesstimating costs for things like "De-islamize the Netherlands" - which according to him will create 7.2 billion Euros.

Cause " Islamic headscarves in public functions" cost money. You wouldn't think it does... but you aren't thinking it through.
Cause when you let the women start wearing scarves, they're gonna keep buying scarves until their closets are bursting with scarves - and then they'll just buy more closets.
Those things are made out of silk too, you know? That shit ain't cheap.

Re:You forgot the Fascist+Inquisition bits...

[Tranzistors]

That's the thing with populism, on the headline front it all sounds reasonable (at least for some). Like when Trump says he will replace ACA with something better and cheaper, that would cover healthcare for everyone. On this level it is a no-brainer, but implementation and context is what matters. So with no further adieu:

1. One element of the rich and long standing culture of Netherlands is the tolerance of religion. And you seem to conflate religious label with attitude towards a country. And I don't see how forced conversion (to what, exactly?) would solve problems of attitude. If anything, this would increase radicalization.

2. In that case, why shouldn't, say, Holland or southern Netherlands declare independence from the rest of the lot?

3. This depends on the culture of referendums. Where I live, those are “confidence in government” vote, and not about the actual question in the ballot.

4. This depends. Any subsidy is problematic and should be weight case by case.

5. Could be reasonable, could be totally catastrophic.

6. On the other hand, Europe's population is ageing, so more young people (it seems mostly Turks) have to support more retirees. This needs extensive economic analysis, not just common sense.

7. And why not drop subsidies for health care then? That sounds reasonable.

8. If you put in new money, where is it coming from? Especially if you retire more people.

9. Police? Maybe, but army is not going to help here. Btw, where is the money coming form?

10. Great, another income source cut. How do you sponsor your good stuff above.

11. It's Netherlands. Public transport + bicycles makes more sense.

My point is, if you just have policy headlines, it might sound sensible, but you really need to analyse impact to see if it would actually work, can be sustainably funded and not have too bad negative side effects.

Re:You forgot the Fascist+Inquisition bits...

[Maritz]

You don't ban books and tear down churches in a free country. It's not a very dutch attitude. That's why it's not "reasonable".

Minor legal note

[mwvdlee]

Turkish diplomats in the Netherlands had been speaking at Dutch rallies to Turkish ex-pats in support of the referendum

Please note that this is illegal according to the Turkish constitution.

Armenian Genocide

[MrKaos]

So Turkey, the country that is yet to acknowledge that they wiped out 1.5 million Armenians, is trying to call out a country that has acknowledged the genocide they committed.

Hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Re:Armenian Genocide

[Maritz]

The Armenian genocide was a century ago. In terms of history, that's not long ago.

Verified Twitter Accounts

[CastrTroy]

To me, the story seems to be that a bunch of "verified" Twitter accounts can be so easily taken over. All kinds of havoc can be created simply by posting a message to a high profile account. Imagine if somebody were to take over Donald Trump's Twitter account. I think that Twitter should require that all verified accounts undergo extra security to ensure that the accounts aren't taken over. Whether that means two factor authentication, client certificates, or some other means, they should be doing more to ensure that this kind of stuff doesn't happen. That verified checkmark should come with some extra requirement. Twitter currently recommends using two factor authentication for verified accounts, but it isn't a requirement.

What a crock of BULLSHIT! Cherry picked at that.

[denzacar]

First of all, trying to untie Koran from the Bible doesn't really work cause it contains the same damn stories and same damn people.
Only real difference being that Jesus is not the son of god but just another prophet.
So that "Islam by one hand" is a crock of shit regardless if that one hand is Allah's or Uthman's as you put it.

Second, saying shit like that "Islam is the work of one man. (Not counting nameless scribes, no one ever credits them.)" is basically proof that you don't know jack shit about Islam.
Or you would have known of hadith.
Which is basically an attempt to expand the Koran after the death of its writer - by compiling quotes attributed to him by various sources.
All of which are specifically and strictly credited because... well... some might choose not to believe some sources.

There are many flavors of Islam. Just like with Judaism or Christianity
Painting it with a generalization-brush of "one Islam by one hand", particularly in today's climate of CLEAR AND OBVIOUS EXAMPLES of Shia-Sunni divisions is beyond ignorant or retarded.

Third turd... Just like the Bible which was not written in modern languages it suffers from transcription and translation errors.
Which compound when most of the text is metaphoric in nature - as is the case with all religious texts.
Saying it is consistent requires more than just belief - it requires blind faith.

Fourth... The Bible is plentiful with DIRECT commands to murder anyone from witches and gays to infidels.
And both Koran and Bible, old testament and new give even more reasons for hate and murder of everyone.

Fifth... Islam is as "compatible with the civilized world" as any ancient religion, cooked up by schizophrenic hermits in a cave, desert or jungle somewhere, edited by lunatics, crooks and child molesters and left "unchanged" for thousands of years.
You know... like all those flavors of Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism...

Not that newer religions cooked up by loons and crooks are any better!
Mormonism, Scientology and Moonism are the same kind of shit.
Just with fewer genocides to their name.
So far.