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Tesla Deal Boosts Chinese Presence in US Auto Tech (reuters.com)

Posted by msmash on from the china's-coming dept.

From a Reuters report:China's Tencent has bought a 5 percent stake in U.S. electric car maker Tesla for $1.78 billion, the latest investment by a Chinese internet company in the potentially lucrative market for self-driving vehicles and related services. Tencent's investment, revealed in a U.S. regulatory filing, provides Tesla with an additional cash cushion as it prepares to launch its mass-market Model 3. Tesla's shares were up 2.9 percent at $277.03 in midday trading on Tuesday, enabling it to rival Ford as the second-most-valuable U.S. auto company behind General Motors. The deal expands Tencent's presence in an emerging investment sector that includes self-driving electric cars, which could enable such new modes of transportation as automated ride-sharing and delivery services, as well as ancillary services ranging from infotainment to e-commerce.

80 comments

  1. Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Once they release that model 3 for under 30,000 and can out pace the rest of the cars on the road - everyone else will be done... why would anyone over spend on a car when they can go all electric, faster and cheaper. Buy now baby! :)

    1. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by mark-t · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Since you asked.... and speaking strictly for myself of course, because I am probably not in Tesla's (or any electric car manufacturer's) target demographic for an electric car. I live in an apartment, and I can't charge it at home because the parking stalls for the building residents don't have individual electrical outlets. Basically, anyone who lives in an apartment building that wasn't built in about the past 10 years or so is probably in the same boat. I know that newer buildings do have outlets in the parking stalls, but there's still one hell of a lot of older buildings around that aren't going anywhere.

      I would totally get an electric car if I lived in a place where I could charge it over night, but that's just not going to happen anytime in the foreseeable future.

      --
      File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    2. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by TWX · · Score: 2

      It's going to be awhile before it's under $30,000. They're projecting $35,000 for the entry-level models, presumably with fairly short ranges and lower power output levels compared to what most electric car buyers will actually want.

      If the Model 3 proves as successful as they're hoping then I expect other car manufacturers to look increasingly toward electrics, but I doubt that conventional internal combustion vehicles will be entirely out of production by the end of my lifetime. There are too many situations where a vehicle doesn't have access to the power grid when it needs fuel, or too many situations when a vehicle needs more range without recharge-delay to spell the complete end of the gasoline or diesel engine in passenger cars and light trucks, and then there's the cost factor. Right now it appears to cost more to manufacture an electric than a gasoline-burning veihlcle. This becomes especially important in the low-end, where buyers that want new cheap cars shop. Until that market is satisfied then I don't see the end of ICE powerplants on the horizon.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    3. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by TWX · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It's actually not all that expensive to add electric to the parking area, when it's properly planned. A new circuit would be run from the electric utility mains to a new transformer, which would run to a central charge controller that would in-turn supply power to receptacles or whatever at each parking space. If they have to run individual conduits to each stall or each pair of stalls they will, or they may rely on larger cables and intelligent devices on individual breakers at each spot, with some kind of data communication back to the central charge controller to log the energy drawn.

      Obviously this works best where apartments have covered parking since the canopy structure acts as the mounting for the conduit and the whole system is at least partially out of the weather. Most apartments around where I live are like this, with assigned spots to given units.

      Is there a security protocol for charging? It would be convenient to just be able to pull-in to one's spot and plug in and have the controller recognize the valid car, so that the person whose spot it is doesn't get billed if someone else parks and attempts to charge there while the rightful tenant is away.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    4. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by haruchai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Once they release that model 3 for under 30,000"
      That's going to take a while. They'll be fortunate to get it released at the promised $35k - although they were promising $30k some years ago and then quietly upped it.
      There are more than a few Tesla-bashers who complain extensive auto experience that have been saying that selling the base model at even $45k would be barely profitable, if at all.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    5. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 2

      There are more than a few Tesla-bashers who complain extensive auto experience that have been saying that selling the base model at even $45k would be barely profitable, if at all.

      If there's one thing I learned from the dot com bust; it's if you're losing money on each unit sold, you just need to sell more of them and make it up on volume. ;-)

    6. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      "Once they release that model 3 for under 30,000"

      That's going to take a while. They'll be fortunate to get it released at the promised $35k - although they were promising $30k some years ago and then quietly upped it.

      There are more than a few Tesla-bashers who complain extensive auto experience that have been saying that selling the base model at even $45k would be barely profitable, if at all.

      I'd not be interested in it even at $30K...has too many seats in the car.

      I'm waiting for a Tesla sports car again..if they could put out a Roadster type out again, in the ballpark range of a Corvette....THEN I"d be interested. Until then, its just a speedy "family" car which I have no interest in....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    7. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by jimtheowl · · Score: 1

      The waste energy of combustion engines can also be quite useful in cold weather.

    8. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by Stoertebeker · · Score: 1

      I'd not be interested in it even at $30K...has too many seats in the car.

      Get an electric smart. Correct number of seats, and cheaper, too!

    9. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by cayenne8 · · Score: 2

      Get an electric smart. Correct number of seats, and cheaper, too!

      Well, aside from it looking fugly.......I think I read its 0-60mph times are like 11+ seconds???

      Nope..I want a performance car, that looks good too. I'd like something like the original Tesla Roadster...or something in that ballpark for looks and performance but in the range of a Corvette price.

      I don't really give a damn about pollution or mileage, but if I could get good looks and performance in an electric car for a reasonable price, I'd do it...

      Range is a big deal too...as that I need to be able to bug out of NOLA when hurricanes come this way and often that means long times in traffic if you don't leave quite early enough, on a HOT summer day where AC is a necessity.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    10. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by KingMotley · · Score: 2

      It is going to be a while (a long while) before you start seeing electric sports cars with any decent range. The problem is the batteries. Batteries are still extremely heavy, which makes trying to make an electric version really difficult that handles at the same level as a gas electric car. Sure, you can make it look sporty, but it'll still have handing issues that gas cars don't have to deal with.

      For example, a new corvette stingray is ~3200 pounds, while a tesla model S is ~4800 pounds. That extra 50% mass hurts when you are trying to change directions.

    11. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by haruchai · · Score: 1

      NextGen Roadster is supposed to be out in 2019-20

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    12. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by haruchai · · Score: 1

      An Audi RS7 is ~4500 lbs - why so heavy when it doesn't have a battery pack at all?
      I'd imagine that such a heavy ICE would also have "handling issues"

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    13. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by TWX · · Score: 1

      Sure there's a use for it, but far, far more waste heat is produced than can be used for other purposes. It's not a terribly efficient arrangement.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    14. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by haruchai · · Score: 1

      "but in the range of a Corvette price"
      What's your range in $s?
      A Stingray is $55k which I don't think Tesla can match for the nextgen Roadster but a Z06 is over $80k

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    15. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by Goragoth · · Score: 1

      But there's a tipping point. As more cars become electric more petrol stations will close due to no longer being profitable (they run on razor thin margins as is). Once large numbers of petrol stations start to close (or convert to charging electric cars), it will become increasingly inconvenient to drive an ICE car, snowballing the popularity of electric vehicles.

    16. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An Audi RS7 is not a sports car you fucking dumbass.

    17. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by mspohr · · Score: 1

      You might be interested in this:
      http://electrameccanica.com/
      Single seat, three wheels. US$15,000

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    18. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by mspohr · · Score: 1

      The original Tesla Roadster had a range of 245 miles. New battery upgrades that to 400+ miles.
      Tesla's have the batteries low to the ground which gives them incredible handling.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    19. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neither is a Model S, you cunting wanker

    20. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      I was hoping for something between the $55K-$80K range....for a Tesla sports car.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    21. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by trawg · · Score: 1

      Adding power points to a parking spot is not an insurmountable problem though. Maybe in a huge complex there are issues supplying enough power but even then it seems manageable by using pricing tariffs encouraging charging at off peak times, etc.

      I mean I agree it's unlikely apartments will do that for you without a lot of begging. But I can easily imagine a future where not having power points in car parks is like not having phone lines or internet available for tenants.

    22. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by TWX · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but that'll require the legacy vehicles to be largely off the road first, and will require the popularity of the plug-in hybrid vehicle along the lines of the Volt to wane too.

      If anything happens in the next twenty years, perhaps drivers that use gasoline-powered cars will have to hunt just a little harder to find stations, along the lines of how diesel-powered cars and trucks can't be filled at probably half of stations, and propane-powered vehicles are limited to less than a quarter of stations. Honestly if it even happens within 20 years I'll be surprised, just because it'll take that long for people to get over their range anxiety and for prices to come down. Right now you can get the range, or you can get the somewhat-affordable price, but not both. Until both are widely available on the same vehicles it's not going to happen.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    23. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by thunderclees · · Score: 1

      That would be nice for a new installation but what to do with existing parking. Installing this after the fact would likely be expensive and so they will not likely do it. What would be more realistic would be metered charging stations along the idea or parking meters. You would swipe your card or use your smartphone to pay for it and lock the charger to the car provided electric cars can standardize their attachment points. There are always the other problems with electric, that you are putting the tailpipe elsewhere, that electric cannot meet the distances travelled in rural areas and when talking about a large part of the US tolerate the colder weather mainly that grids cannot store electricity.

    24. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      it's expensive enough that such a system is well outside of the financial reach of the few owners that would want it, so they wouldn't be able to get it installed until the number of electric cars has reached some kind if critical mass. Given that over 75% of the population in my metro area lives in apartments or condos this creates a kind of catch 22 situation

      --
      File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    25. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by ColdSam · · Score: 1

      Considering that each EV will save $500 to $1000 in fuel costs per year, this is not a rational excuse.

    26. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fast chargers such as Tesla's SuperChargers and other third party chargers that can charge the car in about an hour are popping up at places like grocery stores. So, once or twice a week you go to the store for food, and you charge the car while you're in the store. Most people drive less than 40 miles per day, and with a battery that will go 250-300 miles on a full charge, charging up once per week becomes pretty easy. Granted, not as easy as having a garage, but just like lots of people still use laundromats, going to a charger once a week to fill your car is just one of the compromises one makes as part of living in an apartment.

    27. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      How much money they will save on gasoline is irrelevant if you live in an apartment or condo that doesn't have electrical outlets in each car stall, and the increased cost of moving into a brand new building that *has* those outlets could easily run to more than a thousand a year in higher mortgage payments.

      --
      File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    28. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Ah right... an hour to charge up.... compared to about 2 minutes to fill up with gasoline. Even people who make minimum wage have time that is more valuable than the money they would save over the course of a year by using an EV and always charging at a fast charging stations.

      --
      File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    29. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Quickly sidestepping the fact that the RS7 isn't a real sports car, it's a "sporty" car, it DOES have handling issues as evidenced by skid pad testing:
      1990 camero/firebird - 0.87 (pony car)
      2016 Tesla Model S - 0.89 (electric sedan)
      2017 Audi RS7 - 0.95 (sports sedan)
      2014 Corvette Stingray - 1.11 (sports car)
      2016 Corvette Z06 - 1.20 (sports car)

    30. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by ColdSam · · Score: 1

      What? You were talking about whether people could afford to put in electrical outlets in their garage. Installation pays for itself very quickly. You evidence this yourself when you claim that landlords can charge more than an extra $1000/yr just by having those outlets. Once again, this is a lame excuse.

    31. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by ColdSam · · Score: 1

      Are you being intentionally dim? If you're already shopping or eating out it actually takes less of YOUR time to hook up your EV than to stand around while pumping gas.

      If you just don't want an EV, fine, but your excuses are just ridiculous.

    32. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      eating out every other day or so when I otherwise wouldn't is not an effective cost saving measure. And that's further assuming that I'd even get an available charger, which are in very limited supply, fast chargers even more so.

      --
      File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    33. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by haruchai · · Score: 1

      I wonder just how different the RoadsterNG will be.
      I don't think too many will be impressed if it's AWD-only where you can't put it in RWD-only mode and it'll have to be considerably longer than the previous gen Roadster if the intent is to use the same flat-pack floor.
      Or they can go with a split pack to keep the car short.
      But the original Roadsters were tiny ; if I had a burger & a hardon, I doubt I could fit.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    34. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by haruchai · · Score: 1

      A 2016 CTS-V gets 1.01g at a weight of 4100 lbs. A 2012 911 Carrera pulled 1.03 at 3300 lbs.
      The lines between sports car & sports sedan can't be measured by only the lateral grip, useful as that may be.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    35. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by ColdSam · · Score: 1

      Again, you're just reaching for excuses, changing the assumptions as you go and definitely not doing a fair evaluation. That's your prerogative, but stop claiming that you're a typical case.

    36. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Actually, given that more than 75% of the people in my metro area (and many others, for that matter) live in apartments or condos, and of those, only a very tiny minority live in buildings that were constructed recently enough (past 10 years or so) to adopt the newer guidelines of having electrical outlets in each parking stall, I don't think that my use case is that atypical. It's not an insurmountable issue for people with private garages, but many people do not have those.

      I'm reminded of an anecdote. from wired. The point is well made.. at a line-up in a gas-station, each person you are behind is going to cost you maybe 5 minutes of your time, while at an electric charging station, you may as well just leave and try to find another one somewhere else because unless you are next, it could be hours before you get to charge.

      And in a kind of catch-22, the rate at which new public charging stations are added is limited by the number of electric cars out there, and the number of people who buy electric cars is going to be limited by the availability of convenient charging outlets.

      Sure it will probably happen eventually.... but remember, it took over a century for motorized vehicles to become the norm over horses. I would be very surprised if the existing inertia of using a gasoline infrastructure were to be overcome in my lifetime.

      --
      File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    37. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by ColdSam · · Score: 1

      You are just ignoring all the comments that came before which have explained why many of your assumptions are wrong. It is not expensive to add electric to existing garages, it pays for itself quickly. New developments in upscale areas will almost certainly have some EV charging, older apartment buildings will add some capacity slowly or they will see their pool of possible tenants dwindle. When owners don't want to put up the money, a third party will install chargers and rent them out (like solar panels).

      The same will happen at restaurants and malls. If they want to keep their best customers they will add electric. People won't HAVE to go out more often, they already go out once or twice a week, even if they did have to go one more time the cost savings would be worth it. A $15 charge vs. a $40 tank fill up buys a decent meal. You won't wait at a charger because you will know if spots are available before you get there.

      There won't be one charging solution for everyone. Some will charge at home, some at work and some while out and about. Sales of EVs are not limited by the number of public chargers, they are only limited by how fast Tesla can make them,

      Perhaps you live in a backwards area where you don't see these changes happening rapidly, but they are. In fact, the biggest change you don't see coming is that most of those apartment dwellers won't even own cars in 10 to 20 years, they will take some form of ride sharing, possibly by self driving car.

    38. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Since you mentioned that most apartment dwellers wont even own cars in 20 years, I'd like to point out that *still* leaves no incentive for apartment owners of most currently existing buildings to *ever* install EV facilities, because they will always only potentially be of benefit to a tiny few. Even then, it will still often be more economical for people to own their own car than ride share, just as it is more economical to drive than to take a cab. Public transit may be cheaper than owning and driving a car, but may be considerably less convenient, because there may not be a direct transit route to one's place of work and what is already a 25 minute commute time is doubled or tripled (although truly this depends on where one works vs where one lives.... I used to work at one place where I could hop on the transit and be at work in 20 minutes door to door, and driving offered no real savings over this).

      Sincerely, however, if there were a place for me to charge it overnight, I'd have no qualms at all with an EV being my next car.... and given that a lot of people *do* live in multiunit dwellings that *were* built more than about 10 years or so when the infrastructure for supporting these kinds of facilities started getting put in while the building is being built, I do not think I am an atypical use case.

      The changeover to electric vehicles will eventually happen, sure... but it is happening slowly, and I'd be shocked as hell if it ever going to be practical in my lifetime. I'm not saying that because that's what I want, I'm saying that because I think that believing otherwise is simply too idealistic a viewpoint to be rationally sustainable... Isolated examples might exist of exceptions to this in very progressive areas, but they are not typically reflective of most metropolitan areas that may have many multi-family buildings such as apartments or condos that are 50 years older or more with concrete-enclosed underground parking, that are still in excellent condition and have many decades of life left and are not going anywhere.

      --
      File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    39. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by ColdSam · · Score: 1

      Since you mentioned that most apartment dwellers wont even own cars in 20 years, I'd like to point out that *still* leaves no incentive for apartment owners of most currently existing buildings to *ever* install EV facilities, because they will always only potentially be of benefit to a tiny few.

      This is not a contradiction. Parking lot owners will of course not convert ALL of their spaces to electric. They may start with just a handful and increase the number as time goes on. In 20 years they may have half the parking spaces they used to need and maybe 1/3 of those will be electric. This can even be a new revenue stream for the owners and it will still be cheaper for their tenants than gasoline. Win/win as they say.

      Even then, it will still often be more economical for people to own their own car than ride share, just as it is more economical to drive than to take a cab. Public transit ...

      Of course it will be for SOME people. I don't know why you keep insisting that there has to be one solution for everyone. The transportation market is very complex, but the trend is towards EVs, self-driving and ride sharing. More importantly, ride sharing is now cheaper and more convenient than owning a vehicle for a very large percentage of people. This is why young people are increasingly not even learning to drive or get their license.

      Sincerely, however, if there were a place for me to charge it overnight, I'd have no qualms at all with an EV being my next car.... and given that a lot of people *do* live in multiunit dwellings that *were* built more than about 10 years or so when the infrastructure for supporting these kinds of facilities started getting put in while the building is being built, I do not think I am an atypical use case.

      Yes, you are atypical, but that doesn't mean there aren't millions just like you. There are just many more who aren't. No doubt, most people DON'T have an at home charging station, but the point being made is that it is not hard at all to add a number of charging stations to almost every garage. It makes sense for the owners and the tenants. (Not all, but enough.)

      The changeover to electric vehicles will eventually happen, sure... but it is happening slowly, and I'd be shocked as hell if it ever going to be practical in my lifetime.

      I suggest you do more research then. Many studies and analyses predict that 30% to 50% of new vehicles will be electric within 20 years or so. In countries that are more progressive, e.g. those that are serious about climate change and put a fair tax on gasoline, it will be much quicker. DESPITE those countries having all the problems you say, high densities and old garages. They'll do it because they don't have the insane car culture that we do here.

    40. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      the point being made is that it is not hard at all to add a number of charging stations to almost every garage.

      Private above-ground garages, yes... underground shared concrete parkade parking not so much.... In a condo situation where each stall is individually owned (I prefer to restrict the issue at hand only to owned, rather than rented properties, because renters have very little choice or say in how their property might get developed), if you install only a couple of them in a visitor parking area, then the demand would quickly grow to exceed its availability, necessitating that more be installed. It is cheapest, to install as many as will ever be needed for the foreseeable future, but that means installing them in the stalls for the residents, which is grossly unfair to owners that did not get an electric outlet in their own stall, not to mention being an unpopular idea among those who had not considered previously considered getting an electric car (even though they very might if the facilities were already available for them..... people love to mooch, after all).

      The only fair thing is to install metered electrical outlets in each stall, and where there is no existing wiring or often not even the electrical infrastructure to support it (requiring the municipality to bring in more electrical infrastructure to a community that may have been around for fifty to a hundred years or more), this is *NOT* cheap. A building in an older part of a large city that has high density population could cost upwards of a million dollars to properly upgrade, and this results in an assessment (on the order of about $10k) on all of the owners that only those with intention to buy an electric car in the near future would benefit from. Considering that strata regulations (governed federally) require 75% or more approval from all owners to approve such an assesssment unless the expenditure was required by law, guess how long it will be before that happens? It wouldn't be happening any sooner than before the lack of such charging facilities made the units unsellable.

      I suggest you do more research then.

      Thisk is the research I have done on costs which estimates that costs for installation would run anywhere from $5600 to over $15k per stall, depending on the amount of infrastructure that already exists to support it. Older communities will tend towards the more expensive side of things due to the lack of existing infrastructure. Newer buildings have the facilities, but most do not.

      Of course, you may be inclined to discount the entire country where I live as some kind of backwater nation, but don't assume that I wouldn't find such an evaluation to be a bit insulting.

      --
      File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    41. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by ColdSam · · Score: 1
      You contradict yourself several times in this post. And again you keep up with the tired it can't be done because it either has to be done for ALL or none, then you take the most extreme example and blow it up to make your point.

      Private above-ground garages, yes... underground shared concrete parkade parking not so much.... In a condo situation where each stall is individually owned I prefer to restrict the issue at hand only to owned, rather than rented properties, because renters have very little choice or say in how their property might get developed),

      Renters have a lot of choice, actually. Sure, there will be some property owners who are intransigent or just lazy, those who never upgrade. They may just now be getting cable and will think about allowing high speed internet in 10 years. However, not only are new buildings often required to be EV compatible, many progressive owners will see the value in having EV spaces. They can charge higher rent, charge a fee for the premium EV spaces or just make money off the charging itself.

      So there will be a mix of apartment buildings with EV spaces and without. Just as there are buildings that have high speed internet and not. Note that just having availability of EV spaces is a draw, even for people who don't currently have one. Many people think (rightly or wrongly) that they will have an EV in the future.

      if you install only a couple of them in a visitor parking area, then the demand would quickly grow to exceed its availability, necessitating that more be installed.

      This is like Yogi Berra saying "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

      It is cheapest, to install as many as will ever be needed for the foreseeable future, but that means installing them in the stalls for the residents, which is grossly unfair to owners that did not get an electric outlet in their own stall,

      "Ever be needed?" That's crazy. There is no perfect number, but you can reasonably predict the growth and find the sweet spot. Depending on the layout you might put in just enough to cover the demand for the next 2 or 3 years. Maybe you wire it for the next 5 or 10 years, but you don't need to put in full charging stations.

      The only fair thing is to install metered electrical outlets in each stall

      Again, that's crazy. Depending on the layout of the parking structure, you may have 10% of the stalls EV ready and have all EV owners assigned spaces in the same area, close to electrical panels. This may or may not require a slightly longer walk, but most EV owners would be happy for that. Of course, you can find AN example where this won't work, but some combination of solutions WILL work in most cases.

      A building in an older part of a large city that has high density population could cost upwards of a million dollars to properly upgrade, and this results in an assessment (on the order of about $10k) on all of the owners that only those with intention to buy an electric car in the near future would benefit from.

      Again, EV owners will pay for the upgrades in increased fees for EV spaces or through profits from charging. Not only that, but owners will see their condo value increase simply because the complex has EV charging capability.

      Thisk is the research I have done on costs

      Your link verifies just about everything I've said. It does not support your thesis that EV charging is just not practical in condos and apartment buildings. Not at all. It supports my argument even given the egregiously high installation costs they quote (because of the factors I mentioned in previous posts).

      Of course, you may be inclined to discount the entire country where I live as some kind of backwater nation, but don't assume that I wouldn't find such an evaluation to be a bit insulting.

      I have no idea where you live, but the way you describe it sounds like Moldova, where no one can afford EVs, all the buildings are ancient concrete structures and renters and condo owners are luddites who refuse progress. So in fact you are insulting your own country.

    42. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      The crux of the failure in your line of reasoning is that you appear to think that most owners are progressive thinkers.... in my experience they are not. Most condo owners I have encountered are cheap bastards who are perfectly happy with any inexpensive solution that does not create an inconvenience for them. This is not only my experience in every strata complex that I have ever lived, it is also the experience of absolutely anyone else that I know that has lived in a strata complex. Of course, this isn't a problem if you live in a house, but then you are looking at prices that are sometimes 3-4 times as much, often even more, and likely not achievable for those who have found owning a condo to be adequate in the first place. Oh, many condo owners would certainly love to have electric chargers so they could get an electric vehicle, but most aren't willing to front the thousands of dollars in assessments that it will cost them, and most wouldn't be willing to move their parking space either to allow a charger to be installed there for someone else to use unless there was some other advantage for them, personally. You entirely overlook and discount the human tendency to be selfish and to often stubbornly or even ignorantly resist change, and the minority of progressive thinkers of this generation is simply not influential enough at this time to overcome that. Only time will change this... as much of the older generation of people who currently own their homes dies off and a younger generation replaces them that was raised with the necessary ideals to make it a reality... but don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen because it's not anytime soon. I'd place it probably before the turn of the next century, but I can't say I expect to be around that long.

      I live in Canada, by the way... I assumed that might have been obvious given the reference I cited and linked to from plugndrive.ca.

      I think that this quote from a Gizmodo article puts the problem in perspective.

      It is getting a little better, though. When Tesla launched its first car in 2008, there were about 500 charging locations nationwide; now there's at least 30,000 public outlets. But trying to convince businesses to invest in charging stations that will benefit less than one percent of their customers is a tough job. And filling up your "tank" in an EV is not like pumping gas. You have to physically plug the car in and leave it somewhere, sometimes for hours. Ideally this would happen while you're at home, during off-peak hours for the grid. But those who travel long distances, or live in an apartment without a garage, must rely on charging spots that are part of the urban infrastructure -- and they're not always in places that people need them.

      --
      File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    43. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by ColdSam · · Score: 1

      I don't make that progressive assumption about owners at all, or people in general. But I've pointed out that EV charging is in their best interests in many ways and as the demand ramps up it will be inevitable. Still there will be EV ghettos, condos or apartment buildings with no EV access, and the residents will be older and poorer. Like I said, progressive owners will adopt EVs and some complexes will have far more than average EVs and some far less (or zero). Evolution and economics will win out.

      But more importantly, forward thinking states REQUIRE that HOAs and such allow people to install their own charging where it is not unsafe or unreasonably difficult to do. So the intransigent HOAs can work on a good solution or be forced to let each owner do it themselves. EV early adopters are willing to spend a lot of time and energy fighting HOAs on this, or if they are smart the HOAs will choose the path of least resistance and work with them.

      EV charging doesn't have to be expensive or complex. Even a Level 1 charger (or just an ordinary outlet) is sufficient for the needs of a large portion of the pubic. Chargers can be shared by multiple EVs. The possible number of simple solutions is endless. It's insane to fight this.

      Why would I assume you live in Canada just because the link you sent was from Canada? That is not conclusive at all. Plus, I just don't care unless you can demonstrate why that is relevant to the discussion, which it isn't.

    44. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Evolution and economics will win out

      Eventually, yes.. but not anytime soon. I believe that your supposed projection of it being as soon as you say is naively optimistic except in the communities that have already shown a lot of progress in this regard, which are the exception and not the rule. Remember, it took literally a century before automotive cars replaced the horse.... this kind of change will simply not happen swiftly... and I believe that people who expect otherwise are only setting themselves up for a lot of disappointment in the decades to come.

      --
      File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    45. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      I didn't say the line could be measured only by lateral grip. A sports car with sub-par grip isn't a sports car though. Common definitions of sports cars are "A sports car (or sportscar) is a small, usually two seater, two door automobile designed for spirited performance and nimble handling." and "especially an aerodynamically shaped one-passenger or two-passenger vehicle having a low center of gravity and steering and suspension designed for precise control at high speeds." Another definition would be a two seater automobile with nimble handling and a soft-top.

      Note that all of those refer to handling. It's not the only requirement, but it is one of them, and until batteries get lighter, or someone figures out how to rewrite physics, the extra mass of the batteries will always make them sub-par at handling.

    46. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by haruchai · · Score: 1

      The number of seats seems to be irrelevant. Who cares how many can potentially be seated in the car if it meets all the other requirements.
      The Cadillac appears to meet all the other criteria despite being quite heavy.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    47. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Not sure what your definition of a sports car is, but it isn't what the rest of the world's is. Even Cadillac doesn't call the CTS-V a sports car. They call it what it is. A sedan designed for the track. So according to you, a sports car doesn't need to have only 2 seats, and it doesn't necessarily need to be able to handle well. It also doesn't need to go fast. I guess if you consider any car that can accelerate fast, then yes, there are a ton of "sports cars" out there.

      Most of us will continue to call them what they are: Sport sedans. There is nothing wrong with a sport sedan, but they sacrifice handling and performance to get you the things that aren't necessary for a sports car. If the CTS-V was designed to be a sports car, they would have thrown out 2 seats, 2 doors, replaced steel with aluminum and carbon fiber, shortened the wheelbase, and shaved some glass thickness, etc, but they didn't -- so it's a 4100 lbs sport sedan rather than a 3200 lbs sports car.

    48. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by haruchai · · Score: 1

      My point is that it's a moving target. The sports car of yesteryear may still be fun but they lag behind the sedans of today or even of some considerable years back.
      My gearhead friends were all about 70s muscle cars but the only thing on which they can top a 1/2 decent sedan post 1992 is the amount of noise they make and how much tire smoke they can produce.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    49. Re:Tesla is gonna take over - believe me folks... by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Of course it's a moving target. Same as anything technology based. Today's best is tomorrow's slow. Having driven muscle cars/pony cars for most of my life (and now a real sports car), it's easy to watch. They are ahead of the sport sedans by about 7-8 years. Although, with the muscle cars hitting 660+ HP (707 for the hellcat), I wonder if the sedan will catch up in 7-8 years, as there really isn't much of a need. Time will tell though.

  2. Ten Cent will rob them blind by Lead+Butthead · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I expect ... technology transfer to China faster than you can swear.

    --
    ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
    1. Re:Ten Cent will rob them blind by TWX · · Score: 4, Informative

      It depends on what Tencent is allowed access to.

      The company that my wife works for was bought by a foreign company and that foreign company is basically only allowed its share of the profits as an owner. For anything else it wants, it has to "buy" the information as part of a product transaction just like any other company, and even the executives of the foreign owners are not allowed uncontrolled access to the facility.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    2. Re:Ten Cent will rob them blind by EnsilZah · · Score: 1

      Owning stock doesn't mean you can just walking into the company's HQ and take whatever you want.

    3. Re:Ten Cent will rob them blind by thunderclees · · Score: 1

      Tencent would have taken a close look at the books and the tech before investing close to $2B.

    4. Re:Ten Cent will rob them blind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We all remember this though right?

      https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you

    5. Re:Ten Cent will rob them blind by Gordo_1 · · Score: 1

      You mean my 5 shares of IBM *don't* give me access to their entire patent portfolio? Crap, back to the drawing board...

    6. Re:Ten Cent will rob them blind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I expect you're a stupid twat.

    7. Re:Ten Cent will rob them blind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally, I would be concerned about that, but, Musk has worked hard to prevent CHina from stealing technology in all of his companies. Like Google, he has seen what can and will happen when dealing with CHina.
      As such, I have no doubt that Musk has lines in the deal to prevent that.

      Windbourne (moderating).

    8. Re:Ten Cent will rob them blind by ghoul · · Score: 1

      But owning enough stock does give you a seat on the board and the right to appoint the CEO. And then your friendly CEO can order his subordinates to work with their offshore partners in an atmosphere of complete trust and transparency.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
    9. Re:Ten Cent will rob them blind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      5% is not sufficient for that. Musk will be the CEO for as long as he likes since the cult of Elon give the company a nice stock price boost (similar to the cult of Apple). By that I mean that people are loyal to Tesla and hang on to Musk's every word, anticipating every new product announcement. Any would be corporate raiders can see that and wouldn't kill the value of the stock they bought by upsetting the applecart.

    10. Re:Ten Cent will rob them blind by EnsilZah · · Score: 1

      5% in this case in not nearly enough.
      Elon himself owns somewhere around 25%, and he has some sway over the remaining large holders.
      Also, there are some super-majority rules that require over 66.6% vote for stuff like appointing a new CEO.

  3. Fiddy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    China's Tencent has bought a 5 percent stake in U.S. electric car maker Tesla for $1.78 billion, with US rapper FiftyCent taking a TenCent stake

  4. Musk is desperate for funding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Chicoms will rob him blind.

    1. Re:Musk is desperate for funding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the CHicom are smarter than the Americans. The Americans are simply sitting on their money, while CHi-com is investing as much as they can into western companies. Smart on their part and stupid on Americans.

      Windbourne (moderating).

  5. awaiting comment from our tweeter in chief by LostInTaiwan · · Score: 1

    "We will hang the capitalists with the rope that they sell us."

    China has already seen through Mr. Trump. Trump is just a paper tiger, a small hand guy in an empty ill fitted suit.

    My hope is in Mr. Musk taking measures to protect his company and us from China.

  6. if bolt is any indication by funkymonkjay · · Score: 0

    Outlook isn't so good for tesla if bolt is selling around 1000 per month.
    http://www.greencarreports.com...

    1. Re:if bolt is any indication by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      Outlook isn't so good for tesla if bolt is selling around 1000 per month.

      Dunno about the Bolt, but the first year's worth of Model 3's are already sold out. So Tesla's got that going for them.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    2. Re:if bolt is any indication by EnsilZah · · Score: 1

      Tesla delivered 22,200 cars last quarter.
      Take into account that those are much more expensive, and Tesla is production-constrained, and the Model 3 Had around 400K reservations last we heard (this might have decreased, but it'll still take years to fulfill the orders even if it's half that).

      I don't really know the Bolt situation in depth, maybe they're not making an effort to produce and sell them because they're just meant to fill a regulatory quota, maybe the car itself is not that appealing, or maybe the dealership sales model is indeed biased against electric cars, but I wouldn't extrapolate from it to electric cars in general.

  7. Market Cap? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    5% for 1.78 B values the company at 35.6 B
    Market Cap is now 46.5 B. Why did shares go up 2.75% today?

  8. They bought the shares on the open market by Gordo_1 · · Score: 2

    Just like you or I could (except in much higher volume). Unless a special arrangement is made, they don't get anything other than minority voting rights, a share in stock price appreciation and (at least eventually?) dividends.

    1. Re:They bought the shares on the open market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Just like you or I could (except in much higher volume). Unless a special arrangement is made, they don't get anything other than minority voting rights, a share in stock price appreciation and (at least eventually?) dividends.

      Which explains the weird price movements of TSLA.

      FTFS:

      Tesla's shares were up 2.9 percent at $277.03 in midday trading on Tuesday, enabling it to rival Ford as the second-most-valuable U.S. auto company behind General Motors.

      No one is batting an eye at this.

      It's 1999 again. It is impossible - yes impossible - for Tesla to become profitable enough to justify that valuation. It's the equivalent of paying a billion dollars for the corner Kwicky Mart.

      Maybe 50 years from now, Tesla will be that profitable but in the meantime, the meter is running on that money.

      ...the latest investment by a Chinese internet company ...

      That explains a lot.

    2. Re:They bought the shares on the open market by mspohr · · Score: 2

      Tesla has a gross margin of about 25% on each car they sell. If they stopped investing in new models, factories, etc. they would be profitable today.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    3. Re:They bought the shares on the open market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tesla has a gross margin of about -25% on each car they sell. If they stopped making piece of shit electric cars they would be profitable today.

      Fixed that for you.

  9. A Deal for Batteries. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All the battery cells Tesla use come from China. They need a sweetheart deal to insure continued supply.

    1. Re:A Deal for Batteries. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Gigafactory is in China?

  10. So it is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...grounded to the ground?

  11. delusional. by gl4ss · · Score: 1

    I don't really understand why in such a scenario the rest of the carmakers wouldnt just ramp up their electric efforts.

    because tesla does nothing particularly cheaply or effectively.

    also.. tencent got swindled. 1.78 billion for a 5 percent stake in an operation that is not turning steady profit is a PRETTY SHITTY DEAL, just ask microsoft. the salesman musk needed that money to keep the train rolling.

    but thats besides the point that daimler could copy whatever model tesla has as succesful profitable model in a year. theres electric bmw models ready to scale up in production that are cheaper than teslas.

    previous tesla models have been competing mainly with upper market bmw's - and even with those teslas have been able to compete due to tax breaks. the previous teslas have all been stupidly expensive - and yet tesla has failed to turn that expensive price into profit TRANSLATING into selling EXPENSIVE PARTS AT BARELY THE COST for several years.

    that is, I am very skeptical of Tesla managing to sell _anything_ for under 30 000 dollars at a profit and you have to remember that such a car would still be competing with bmw's on price once you add the tax that most of the world has on cars.

    right now it's still basically "do I buy a tesla, an upper range bmw or a lower range ferrari" - and the two latter ones let you tour through europe without stopping.

    --
    world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  12. It's Tesla Corp, not just cars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Take a closer look: Tesla Corp also provides wall-pack batteries, owns SolarCity, and is generally going after all things solar - to- storage. And believe me, as a MS90D owner reading TeslaOwners forums, there are plenty of people out there on waitlists for MS and MX, let alone M3.