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NYC Poised to Ban Firms From Asking Job Candidates About Pay (bloomberg.com)

Posted by msmash on from the taking-a-stand dept.

In a vote this week, the New York City approved legislation that will ban employers from asking job applicants about what they make in their current or past job and could have far-reaching consequences beyond the city as employers try to standardize their practices. From a report: "This bill will go a long way in addressing wage disparities women -- and particularly women of color -- face," said Public Advocate Letitia James, who sponsored the measure. White women in New York earn on average 84 percent of what white men earn, while Asian women earn 63 percent, black women earn 55 percent and Hispanic women just 46 percent, according to a report from the advocate's office, based on U.S. Census data. Asking about pay in a job interview hurts women who may start from a lower level than male candidates -- an effect that compounds over time. "It perpetuates discrimination," James said. "And it has an effect on their pensions as well."

17 of 142 comments (clear)

  1. The wage gap myth continues... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    While I do agree that questioning pay should be banned, I really wish they would stop with the "Women get paid less than men" myth. Continuing to use it is fake news.

    1. Re:The wage gap myth continues... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The wage gap myth is, for some reason, easy to perpetuate no matter how many times you throw facts back at it. It's a politician's, feminist's, and SJW's crutch to lean on.

    2. Re: The wage gap myth continues... by Topwiz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because they aren't breaking it down by job. Hispanic women are paid half of white men because of the types of jobs they are working. I have read that when broken down by job/experience levels that the difference is around 3% and that in certain jobs women actually make more. The largest gaps are in Hollywood and Silicon Valley, two of the most liberal job markets in the country.

    3. Re: The wage gap myth continues... by Luthair · · Score: 4, Informative

      https://hired.com/gender-wage-...

    4. Re: The wage gap myth continues... by Frobnicator · · Score: 4, Interesting

      https://hired.com/gender-wage-...

      Thank you for posting that. The key elements from that report are clear to most:

      First, what is the pay disparity:

      Our data shows that 63% of the time women receive lower salary offers than men for the same job at the same company. This figure has improved slightly from 69% since our 2016 report. On average, women are paid 4% less than male applicants for the same role

      Then look up the negotiation of wages:

      When examining our candidates’ preferred salaries, we discovered that for 69% of the roles for which both a man and a woman were given an initial offer, women set their preferred salary less than men. Women asked for an average of 4% less than men.

      The pay disparity is almost entirely (but not quite entirely) due to men asking for more money, and women asking for less money.

      There are plenty of books on the subject like "Women Don't Ask" and "Nice Girls Don't Get The Corner Office", but the studies they cite show that men are about 8x more likely to ask for money during salary negotiations, and when they do, men ask for more money than women. Men ask for raises/bonuses/promotions anywhere from 4x to 8x more often than women.

      Most of the difference is men ASK for more, and generally women who also ask will get it. Once they decide to hire, the companies generally pay whatever the candidate asks.

      --
      //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
  2. Not going to change anything by religionofpeas · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Just because you don't know what someone made in their previous job doesn't mean that they'll be offered more.

    1. Re:Not going to change anything by sinij · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, this will mostly help people with gaps in employment. As a hiring manager it is fairly typical move to disqualify candidates that previously earned too much out of fear that they will leave shortly. Even if this is not the case and applicant is willing to take a pay cut to get any job.

    2. Re:Not going to change anything by skids · · Score: 2

      No, don't you understand? Wasting everybody's time is a moral imperative. How are we supposed to live with ourselves if we don't make people spend over an hour paging through tens of websites to buy a widget? And for a job applicant? You gotta make sure they wear out at least one keyboard before they get in the door.

      --
      Someone had to do it.
    3. Re:Not going to change anything by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Just mandate that the pay be stated upfront in the original job ad.

      When I advertise for a "programmer", I usually don't have a specific salary in mind. If one applicant is more capable than another, then I will offer more. If I put a low salary range in the ad, the better candidates will not apply. If I put a high range, then I will be flooded with responses from lousy candidates that are not even remotely qualified for that salary.

    4. Re:Not going to change anything by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Revealing your previous salary never, ever helps you. The only things that the company can do with that information all screw you somehow.

      It's pretty normal to give this information in the UK. I've been refusing and it seems to be a useful test to filter out crap companies that aren't able to handle this situation.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  3. How do these statistics work? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm working at a business with low pay--where the average for a programmer is $96k here, programmers make $74k. The same is true of most IT staff, running a good 20%-30% short of the industry median.

    We're also fairly diversified and have chicks and people from all over the world in our staff, and have had folks who speak Russian or obscure Indian dialects as a primary language in prominent technical positions. They're also poorly-paid, although near as I can tell we all have about the same salary.

    It seems like a form of posturing: we don't want to pay salaries, so we create a perception of ... something. We're a good place to work because of something something benefits diversity open-door-policy.

    Are these studies by industry, region, experience, and business? Do we say that black women earn 55% as much as white men, or do we say that black women at business X in job Y earn 55% as much as white men in business X at job Y? What happens if business X mostly hires white men for job Y, and business X' hires a higher proportion of black and asian women for job Y but also pays like shit even if you're a white man?

    --
    Support my political activism on Patreon.
    1. Re:How do these statistics work? by m00sh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm working at a business with low pay--where the average for a programmer is $96k here, programmers make $74k. The same is true of most IT staff, running a good 20%-30% short of the industry median.

      We're also fairly diversified and have chicks and people from all over the world in our staff, and have had folks who speak Russian or obscure Indian dialects as a primary language in prominent technical positions. They're also poorly-paid, although near as I can tell we all have about the same salary.

      It seems like a form of posturing: we don't want to pay salaries, so we create a perception of ... something. We're a good place to work because of something something benefits diversity open-door-policy.

      Are these studies by industry, region, experience, and business? Do we say that black women earn 55% as much as white men, or do we say that black women at business X in job Y earn 55% as much as white men in business X at job Y? What happens if business X mostly hires white men for job Y, and business X' hires a higher proportion of black and asian women for job Y but also pays like shit even if you're a white man?

      That doesn't work. Recruiters will successfully poach someone getting underpaid or unhappy. So, it seems like you're unhappy about getting underpaid.

      Competition is why people earn what they earn what they earn. Your employer cannot get away with paying you $x when employer B will pay you $(x+y). At a statistical level, maybe race and gender matters but on a personal level there are too many variations.

    2. Re:How do these statistics work? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you pay less, you get less. I worked for a company that had about 20 programmers making $30k in the heart of Silicon Valley. How did we do it? We hired kids straight out of high school and trained them as code monkeys, to whip up Javascript or throw-away Perl scripts. Most of our projects were quick one-off stuff, and when we did need to maintain something for the long term we had one of our "real" programmers clean it up. This actually worked amazingly well, and the company was profitable for years. I kept in touch with many of those kids, and most of them went on to successful tech careers, and one of them even got a PhD from Stanford.

  4. Why do they care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've never understood why someone's current salary is important to an employer. A job pays what the job is worth and the skill set the candidate brings to the table. It should not pay based on what someone is currently making as there is no relationship.

  5. Pay negotiations still have to happen by captaindomon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So what? Pay negotiations still want to happen. "I can't ask you what you make now. Ok, next question: Is our offer of $100k acceptable? No? What would you consider an acceptable offer?"

    --
    Just because I can hook a shark from a boat, I do no offer to wrestle it in the water.
    1. Re:Pay negotiations still have to happen by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's how it should happen.

      And that's definitely not how it happens. Businesses by and large no longer negotiate. At least, big businesses. They know what they're going to pay and that's it. There is no discussion. If you ask for more, they will simply say no (speaking from experience). HR has a schedule: job title X with Y years of experience and Z tenure gets salary Alpha, and that's an end of it. They do this specifically to avoid discrimination lawsuits. If women in the company have lower average salaries than men, it's invariably because they have y experience, where y < the Y the men have.

  6. What's a "pension"? by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 2

    Sorry - I've only ever worked for private companies in the tech industry for the past twenty years. What is this "pension" you speak of?