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Tesla Tops GM by Market Value as Investors See Musk as Future (bloomberg.com)

Tesla became the largest U.S. auto maker by market value on Monday, overtaking General Motors -- a feat that would have seemed highly improbable 13 years ago when the electric-car maker first began tinkering with the idea of making a sports car. From a report: Tesla climbed as much as 3.4 percent in early Monday trading, boosting its market capitalization to about $51 billion. The company was valued at about $1.7 billion more than GM as of 9:35 a.m. in New York. The turnabout shows the extent to which investors have bought into Musk's vision that electric vehicles will eventually rule the road. While GM has beat Tesla to market with a plug-in Chevrolet Bolt with a price and range similar to what Musk has promised for his Model 3 sedan coming later this year, the more than century-old company has failed to match the enthusiasm drummed up by its much smaller and rarely profitable U.S. peer. No matter, say investors who like the stock. Tesla is a technology player with the ability to dominate a market for electric cars and energy storage. To those same investors, GM and Ford are headed for a slowdown in car sales that will erode profits. "Is it fair? No, it isn't fair," Maryann Keller, an auto-industry consultant in Stamford, Connecticut, said of GM ceding the market-cap crown. "Even if Tesla turns a profit, they will eventually have to make enough to justify this valuation."

18 of 289 comments (clear)

  1. Hey GM, how about that EV1? by Kludge · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Large American car companies have been a cluster fuck since the 70s. GM could have dominated this market starting with the EV1 years ago. Idiots.

    1. Re:Hey GM, how about that EV1? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nissan are in danger of missing the boat too. The Leaf is a great car and they have done a lot to get people driving EVs, especially in Europe. The problem is that circumstances have kind of screwed them - Tesla's Model 3 is looking unbeatable right now, so far ahead of anything anyone else can offer it's stunning. That big screen, full self driving if not from day one fairly early in its life, and best of all software updates in an age when most manufacturers can't keep the sat nav up to date.

      On top of that they build the Leaf in the UK, and the UK plant's future is uncertain due to Brexit. It seems like they held back with the new model because of these things, hoping to release it with their ProPilot tech which isn't even as good as Telsa's auto-pilot was at release (doesn't work at low/high speeds, can't even change lanes by itself etc.)

      Really sad because they could be a big player. They just need to get the next Leaf right but don't appear to have the tech to keep up with Tesla, and when the Model 3 comes along the ~40kWh car with old tech is not going to cut it at the 30k price point.

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    2. Re:Hey GM, how about that EV1? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Politics are something. Inertia is something as well.

      Different people have different reasons for hating on Electric Vehicles. The Petrocar dealerships are threatened because a large part of their revenue stream is based on post-sales service. And the electric car is a hellava lot less prone to the little issues that hit petrocars.

      Many Politicians hate Electric Vehicles because tax revenue from petro sales goes down, and those taxes are easier to hide while railing against other taxes. A lot of people have severe inertia issues. "If leaded gas was good enough for Grandpa, it's good enough for me." Anything new is anathema.

      And some people are just plain nuts. How are we gonna go "coal rolling in an EV? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... Where these insane idiots like to do this when they see an Electric vehicle or hybrid.

      It is just going to take time for the normal people, and the actuarial tables for the lunatic fringe to die off - probably via black lung or COPD for the coal rollers - and EVs will take over just like Petrovehicles took over from the horse and buggy.

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    3. Re:Hey GM, how about that EV1? by Junta · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The Model 3 will have to be judged when it releases. Whether Tesla can really fare better than the traditional automakers when faced with having to support sales of 3 million or cars or more annually is *very* far away. It's much easier to do a lot of these things when you sell on the order of 50k vehicles a year compared to 3 million a year that the likes of GM and Nissan have to deal with.

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    4. Re:Hey GM, how about that EV1? by Nutria · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The valuation on Tesla is insane, just like all the 'unicorn' ones, investors obsessed with new and novel behaving irrationally.

      Exactly.

      Tesla's P/E ratio is... non-existent.
      GM's P/E ratio is 5.7 and their dividend yield is 4.46%. GM's If investors had *any* sense, GM's P/E ratio would be 16, which would make it's market cap $141.6B, and Tesla's market cap would be around $10B.

      Honestly, obsessing about market cap is *stupid*.

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    5. Re:Hey GM, how about that EV1? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Beautiful? The Tesla X looks like a Pontiac Aztek.

    6. Re:Hey GM, how about that EV1? by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Musk has sold investors on a vision. He now has to deliver profits. That's the problem for Tesla.

    7. Re:Hey GM, how about that EV1? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Musk has sold investors on a vision. He now has to deliver profits. That's the problem for Tesla.

      Spot on, these pie in the sky financial valuations are just that. A ponzi scheme with no substance behind where only the company's ceo and the banks make out like bandits while fucking the rest of the investors. Tesla is a physical company and they sell physical goods (cars) but there is no way in hell the company is worth 50 billion dollars even accounting for potential growth. That's wishful thinking and a dangerous game to play.

    8. Re:Hey GM, how about that EV1? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      People were begging GM to keep their EV1s. The market that liked them really liked them. GM said "no" and crushed them.

      People 'saying' they like them doesn't constitute a market. Actual sales and sales demand is what defines the market. People were not lining up to buy those EVs.

    9. Re:Hey GM, how about that EV1? by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yet Nissan sells more electric cars than Tesla and has been doing so for a while.

      No they don't. They sell more cars with an electric drive train somewhere in the chassis. The Leaf which is Nissans only all electric car with any kind of sales figures is the best selling EV in the world behind the Tesla Model S.

      Which is saying something given the insane price and performance differences.

  2. Madoff is small time compared to Musk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    When this company goes under it's going to take so many people's life savings with it it'll look like Madoff's schemes were nothing. And it's all completely legal. I guess it's survival of the fittest; economic darwinism. The smart ones won't get sucked in and will live to invest another day.

    1. Re:Madoff is small time compared to Musk by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Tesla has cars on the road, it's not vaporware company. His other companies are also progressing with their goals too.

      If you want to talk about something that took a lot of people's life savings and that was completely legal, let's talk about the fucking banks. Not only did they ruin people's lives but they also got more money for bailouts. Banks, the very place that's supposed to be about managing money, fucked everyone and got more money on top of that. I wonder why the people at the top didn't get the firing squad.

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    2. Re:Madoff is small time compared to Musk by dehachel12 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      >I wonder why the people at the top didn't get the firing squad.
      because they are in control of the single american party.

  3. TSLA is a sentiment stock by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you made money on it, good for you. The company is grossly overvalued. Get out while you can.

  4. The emperor's new clothes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's shocking how much faith investors seem to have in what is essentially a Ponzi scheme with stockholder money despite how obvious it is. There is no way Tesla is ever going to make a profit in many years to come, even if it manages to pour more money into it several more times. The hallowed Model 3 will get trampled in the mass market. Several major companies that actually know how to build cars will have competing electric cars right around the time the Model 3 will be available in significant numbers, with probably very few redeeming features to set it apart, but with Tesla's famously lacklustre build quality. The Model S has been aging for a while and its target market is saturating. Moreover, it will get just as much competition as the Model S, with Audi, Mercedes-Benz and BMW all working on luxury electric vehicles that will put the Model S to shame.

    Apart from two quarters artificially made profitable by accounting tricks, Tesla has never been able to make a real profit selling expensive cars in a niche market without any real competition, where buyers are Tesla fans and typically willing to forgive the shortcomings of Tesla's products. There is no way they can succesfully compete in the mass market, where margins are razor thin and customers tend to depend on a car they buy as their only vehicle, even if they can somehow stay afloat while trying.

    1. Re:The emperor's new clothes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Half of deposits becoming sales would be extremely optimistic, but even then, it will be years before Tesla has actually made them and by that time, there will be enormous competition from companies that have huge resources, lots of experience building cars and lots of capacity, and who can support their electric efforts with the profits from internal combustion engined cars, while Tesla will have its hands full just keeping things afloat while selling Model 3s at a loss for at least a few years.

  5. Remember AOL by tomhath · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Tesla "worth" $51 billion? Pfft. Back in the dot bomb bubble days AOL was "worth" $224 billion, now it's under $5 billion. We'll see how Tesla holds up.

  6. Backlog/Demand is the reason for the valuation by mykepredko · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm trying to find the current backlog for Tesla cars and it seems to be somewhere north of 400k vehicles with close to a billion in deposits for the orders. Nobody else has that kind of traction (if you'll excuse the pun) for current, announced or planned vehicles - in comparison, in 2016 Mercedes sold 374k vehicles in the US.

    Yes, the investors are taking a risk on Tesla, but isn't that part of the job description?

    Along with this, there seems to be a significant demand for electric vehicles. I don't expect them to overtake fossil fueled vehicles any time soon, but at least 10% of buyers are seriously interested in EVs and Tesla is the number one name there with generally great reviews for products compared to the competition (ie the Leaf makes you feel like you're settling for less and the Volt/Bolt just don't have the cachet), the company is serious about renewables/reducing customers' carbon footprint and a rock star CEO.

    You can say it's a fad stock, but there are some solid fundamentals there in terms of backlog and customer demand which justify a high stock price.

    Maybe if the Model 3 turns out to be a lemon, things will change with regards to the stock, but as I said, part of the job description for an investor is to take risks and people seem to think that there will be a reward at the end of the day.