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Facebook Rejects Female Engineers' Code More Often Than Male Counterparts, Analysis Finds (theverge.com)

According to The Wall Street Journal, female engineers who work at Facebook may face gender bias that prevents their code from being accepted at the same rate as male counterparts. "For Facebook, these revelations call into question the company's ongoing diversity efforts and its goal to build overarching online systems for people around the globe," reports The Verge. "The company's workforce is just 33 percent female, with women holding just 17 percent of technical roles and 27 percent of leadership positions." From the report: The findings come in two parts. An initial study by a former employee found that code written by female engineers was less likely to make it through Facebook's internal peer review system. This seemed to suggest that a female engineer's work was more heavily scrutinized. Facebook, alarmed by this data, commissioned a second study by Jay Parikh, its head of infrastructure, to investigate any potential issues. Parikh's findings suggested that the code rejections were due to engineering rank, not gender. However, Facebook employees now speculate that Parikh's findings mean female engineers might not be rising in the ranks as fast as male counterparts who joined the company at the same time, or perhaps that female engineers are leaving the company more often before being promoted. Either possibility could result in the 35 percent higher code rejection rate for female engineers. When contacted by The Wall Street Journal, Facebook called the initial study "incomplete and inaccurate" and based on "incomplete data," but did not shy away from confirming Parikh's separate findings.

29 of 450 comments (clear)

  1. Maybe by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Facebook Rejects Female Engineers' Code More Often Than Male Counterparts, Analysis Finds"

    Maybe it's just not as good, unless every female programmer signs it with "Coded by a Female Programmer!" That, and the little hearts above every lower-case "i".

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    1. Re: Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      What about grrrl gamer and GirlBoss and GirlGeek? Maybe Trump can c u m on them?

      I love articles about gender issues and racism, it's why I originally started coming here 15 years ago. Well done Slashdot!

    2. Re:Maybe by msauve · · Score: 3, Insightful

      unless every female programmer signs it with "Coded by a Female Programmer!"

      Exactly how does a code reviewer know the sex of the code submitter, which would be a prerequisite to any claim of bias? I'd guess the only way would be a real name was attached to the submission. But why should that be the case? Why not anonymize submissions? If it's felt there is a need for reviewers to know the past quality of submissions for a each submitter (but why, isn't the review supposed to judge the current submission?), have the system show a quality metric (% of submissions accepted?).

      Is there any real need for submitters to be personally identifiable to others, besides perhaps via a back-end system only available to management?

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    3. Re: Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Stop assuming that girls being interested in tech looks the same as boys being interested in tech. People can be interested and still feel like they want to try other things. Did you try to recruit them for another tech activity when the play was over? Or were you assuming that "interested in tech" means "not interested in other things" and "always puts tech first", and therefore that since they put the play first when it had a deadline, they weren't interested in tech? And what about the social milieu? Was there a popular kid on the team who preferred the cameraderie of storytelling and the thrill of performing and found the joy of solivng a challenging problem was less fun because other people were just as good at it?

    4. Re: Maybe by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's very hard because even at that age the bias is well established in their minds. But don't expect instant results either, just keep working at it and let the younger girls see the results (like that doll house) so that their expectations are redefined.

      That's what happened with women's soccer in the UK, and it took a decade but it is quite well established now.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re: Maybe by Lordpidey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And yet we push them away just as hard, by assuming that any man who wants to work with children for a living is a horrible pedophile.

      --
      Some people encrypt by using rot-13 twice. I prefer the more secure method of using rot-1 a total of twenty six times.
    6. Re: Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, gender studies degree holders tell you girls are interested. Every attempt to push women into STEM fails miserably because on average, girls/women aren't as interested. Any girl who tells you she's facing barriers boys don't has bought the bullshit from feminism 101. There have been countless attempts at it, even excluding boys. It doesn't change.

    7. Re: Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Shittiest argument in the known world. If you intend to make a counterargument you too need evidence to assert your position it's that fucking simple, as you too are making a claim. This isn't a court of law, it's a peruvian cat training comment section. Furthermore the fact that the article explicitly states that there is a definitive correlation between the higher rejection rates and the immediate ranking in the hierarchy draws closer to the conclusion that the data is being misinterpreted and that junior employees are committing janky code. Delve even deeper into gender statistics and find that women with STEM degrees are in high demand with marginal supply, factor in diversity arbitrary diversity quotas. Now you've incentivized businesses to hire under-qualified people to handle products that are reviewed by peers; suddenly you have the outcome shown above.

      So let's draw some conclusions: you hire people based on an arbitrary demand from the social strata in order to statistically balance your workforce and in doing so you create an amalgam of acceptable racism and sexism. In doing so you hire out all the people in the pool and you have to seek alternatives. These under-qualified alternatives fail to produce acceptable code and the senior employees reject it. The under-qualified people fail to promote, and are largely disinterested, overwhelmed, unwilling to learn or any of the many other reasons for continued failure, so they either quit, or continue to fail. Suddenly a statistically valid anomaly appears and men are to blame, rather than the incredibly sexist ideology that drives diversity quotas.

    8. Re:Maybe by Imrik · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So maybe instead of going public about how Facebook is biased against women they should instead get them to start doing blind submissions, and only go public about it if they refuse or the data holds true.

    9. Re: Maybe by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1, Insightful

      >Why is a society's priority to get more women into tech?

      Girls tell us they are interested but face barriers that boys don't. Some of us want to help them.

      No, they don't. OTOH, lots of politically motivated girls are saying that *OTHER* girls are interested.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    10. Re: Maybe by Aighearach · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Token employees do token work, meow meow meow meow meow.

      Explains perfectly why companies with more reputable hiring practices don't have the problem.

    11. Re: Maybe by ckatko · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >I feel very frustrated. If anyone has any ideas on how to get girls interested in tech, I would love to hear about it.

      Ever consider that most girls don't enjoy being forced to think in linear, sequential, logical terms? Most girls don't want to drive fast motorcycles either. Most girls don't want to fight in bare knuckle boxing fights. We sure love forgetting biology and hell... girls and woman's own desires about what they want. If a girl picks nursing (or "play rehearsals") over IT, is she a "failure" or merely choosing the most rewarding job for her brain? Have you considered the only girls that enter coding are ones trying to please an authority figure (you, their parents, or some other societal pressure), and when that fails to continually reward them they go do what they actually want?

      The true fact of the matter is, IT is a very financially successful field and that we want whats best for our girls (not equality, but the BEST) is the only reason we're trying to shoehorn them into IT. If we truly wanted "equality" of jobs, we'd be trying just as hard to force them to be plumbers, custodians, and other "bottom of the social ladder" jobs. But those jobs don't have social value, and we want our girls to be as valuable as possible.

      We act like the world has magically gone "progressive" but all we're doing is the same thing we've been doing since pre-history, but calling it progressive. We're trying to make our girls the most valuable they can be, whether through corsets and exotic clothing to show the virtue of their virginity and social value, or simply getting them high paying jobs in IT and buying "princess" a nice car in highschool, the intent behind it is the same. And it's pretty damn obvious the same need doesn't exist for our boys.

      So we either need to conclude that woman are incapable of driving themselves to become successful and NEED to be forced and pushed into being successful. Or, we're just a bunch of assholes pressuring girls into doing things they don't enjoy, just so they can alleviate our low view of them for being too "cliche" and enjoying feminine jobs.

      It's alarming that these threads always end up like this. Denying women their agency, and/or treating them like morons. Nobody ever cares what women want, all they care about is, "there's not enough of them in this field."

    12. Re: Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This!

      The term geek or nerd in media is not a positive image, it's Screech from Saved by the Bell, or Steve Urkel, or any kid in school getting picked on.

      There are no positive geek/nerd role models in our media-centric culture that boys and/or girls can relate to.

    13. Re:Maybe by bluegutang · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Wait, did you just discriminate against women without vaginas? You bigot!

  2. Hiring not by merit, but by Gender by minogully · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If Facebook started hiring lots of women just for the sake of having more women in the workforce (to meet some gender diversity quota) rather than based on the individual's skills, then it's likely that the average talent of the women in Facebook would be lower than their male counterparts. Taking this further, it seems likely to me that these women would also have their code rejected more often.

    1. Re:Hiring not by merit, but by Gender by El+Cubano · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It also equally likely that their diversity efforts have resulted in a lower overall experience level for their female engineers. Tech has always had a smaller proportion of women than the general population. If they all of a sudden said "let's hire lots of female engineers," and there are not as many experienced female engineers to poach from other tech companies, then you have to hire newbies and other less experienced folks and train them up.

      Have you ever worked with a new or inexperienced engineer or programmer? They tend to write lots of crap code because they lack experience.

      Of course, we don't know for sure because the word "experience" appears neither in the WSJ's article nor in The Verge's article. Gee that seems like the sort of basic thing that a study like this would consider.

  3. More by Orgasmatron · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even worse, the women who weren't quota hires will never be sure if they earned their spot with their vagina or not.

    --
    See that "Preview" button?
  4. Maybe here's the real problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Bias and discrimination exist.

    What also exists is people who do shitty work.

    Unfortunately, in the world of the feminist SJW, only white males are capable of doing shitty work. In the alternate universe of the feminist SJW, women and minorities are incapable of doing shitty work, and to claim any differently makes you a racist, sexist misogynist pig .

    1. Re:Maybe here's the real problem by Mashiki · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're making the common mistake of conflating real Feminists with the man-hating, power-seeking, vengeance-driven SJW ersatz, who don't want equality, they want supremacy. Real Feminists just want to be treated fairly.

      That's the only right kind of feminist is the first type these days. Otherwise you're excommunicated, and viciously attacked by them as a women hater. The same garbage that you see in subs like /r/feminism is the same type of stuff that's pushed in schools from Canada and the US to Australia. Everything is men's fault, it's all the fault of the patriarchy, society is ruled by the patriarchy, etc, etc, etc. If you refuse to believe that you're a misogynist/sexist/etc. It's this same type of bullshit that's given birth to MRA's, Men's Rights Movements, MGTOW, and so on. There's an absolute fear of standing up to them as well, because they'll bring out the "you're a rapist, you commit sexual assault, etc" garbage and will attempt to ruin a persons life to boot. And if you refuse to fall in line with that? Or if you refuse to follow the 3/4 women will be raped/sexually assaulted/etc? Well you're a rape apologist now.

      Ask those 2nd wave feminists who've been saying the 3rd/4th wave bullshit is literal bullshit for decades now. Take someone like Camille Paglia or C.H. Sommers, they're "not real feminists" according to the modern orthodoxy. Or ask those women who say they're not feminists, and are viciously attacked by those batshit insane feminists, the media, and so on. The current brand of feminism can fall into one of two categories depending on your view. It's either a religion, or a cult.

      Hell take all those feminists who say "well if men want help on their own issues, they should make their own movement." And so they did...you guess what happens? They're attacked, their meetings are disrupted, and so on. Ask yourself why those same feminists who say "it's about equality" attack men who've been raped by women. Try to get men's shelters shut down. Try to block successfully in many cases to get rape laws changed so they're gender neutral. Ask yourself why feminists have their panties in such a twist over the documentary "The Red Pill" by Cassie Jaye. That they go as far as to attack her in the media and lie. Lie and threaten theaters who were showing it, force them to not show it. Say it's all rape apology, sexism, and so on. Disrupt private events from showing it. Ask yourself why feminists fight so hard against getting male suicide labeled an epidemic. It is. 80% in some countries are men, but the help they're able to get is close to non-existent in some cases. 83% of suicides in my own backyard are from men in the 16-40 range. There's two programs that exist to help men, there are 73 programs for women.

      Then ask yourself, why so few people actually call themselves feminists. And why so many people see what the GP said, is believed by so many.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
  5. Its because of the diversity efforts by ghoul · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Facebook has a manadate to hire more Female Engineers. As far fewer Female Engineers graduate than other Engineers one way to get the Quantity desired is to lower the Quality. Once you are letting in lesser Quality Engineers and then vetting their checkins at the existing standards its expected that more of the checkins will be rejected.
    I just hope code review standards are not lowered in order to avoid emotional trauma.
    What's next? 50% of surgeries have to be done by female surgeons?
    The President needs to be Female 50% of the time?
    50% of combat casualties need to be female?

    --
    **Life is too short to be serious**
    1. Re:Its because of the diversity efforts by ChrisMaple · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are promoting intervention in a free economy in order to meet your social goals. That makes inefficiency more likely, and thus reduces the financial wellbeing of society overall. That's in addition to the injustice of not paying people based on merit.

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  6. Bias, eh? by fyngyrz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Can you even accept the possibility that gender bias could even partially be responsible for what is being observed?

    I have zero problem accepting that possibility.

    However, I find it absurd that some people have trouble accepting the possibility that inasmuch as women do approach things differently than males do in the general case, that this might very well affect the solutions they come up with, again, in the general case.

    The first sign that political correctness has gone too far is when you see adherents ignoring facts right in front of their nose.

    For all I know, the women's solutions are better because of this, and the stats brought to light here are because men can't see that - because the thinking isn't the same.

    But to assume that the sexes produce identical results when presented with identical problems... that actually seems more suspect to me than any claim of inherent equality.

    Best tech support person ever worked for me - over thirty years - was female. By far. Because she, naturally I believe, brought compassion to the phone and she knew what she was doing right down to the last nut and bolt.

    Equality of opportunity is a wonderful idea, and I'm all for it. And for reaping the results of the best outcome.

    But presuming equality of capability because tits vs. danglies... that's just stupid. No one should do that. And you know what that is? It's bias.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re: Bias, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      People have known for a long time that pure numbers is a shit way to measure performance. But the police also know that when they want a budget increase, the general population is more willing to grant one when they have hard numbers to show.

    2. Re:Bias, eh? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2, Insightful

      For many years the most important criteria for evaluating a police officer was "number of arrests"

      [citation needed]

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  7. Male programmers to sue Facebook by ghoul · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This study could be used as proof that Facebook is discriminating against male programmers by hiring female programmers with worse coding skills just to meet some "diversity" goals.

    --
    **Life is too short to be serious**
  8. First thought: "33%? Seriously?" by anvilmark · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have worked in IT for many years and have known some truly stellar female programmers - but I've never worked anywhere with 33% women.
    Based purely on industry statistics they had to bypass more experienced males in order to hire that ratio of females. There are just so many more males in the industry than females.

  9. That's nott how code review should work by slimjim8094 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Code review isn't supposed to be about rejecting code, it's supposed to be about improving code and providing another set of eyes with a different perspective. In several years doing code reviews for men and women, and having my code reviewed by men and women (for >1000 overall), I can count on maybe two hands the number of changes that I'd count as rejected - either because the change was unneeded and I was misunderstanding, or because it was needed but I wasn't the person to do it because I wasn't experienced enough with the code I was changing. Many changes go through substantial rework, though as you gain experience you can write better code that needs fewer fixes - so if on average females are more junior (which is true across a wide range of industries and largely responsible for the gender pay gap) then they will on average face greater rework - though on an individual basis they will face less and less as they become more experienced just like everyone else.

    But thinking of - or practicing - code review as adversarial or something where changes can be "rejected" (other than for mundane reasons like trying to change another team's code in ways that don't fit their model of how their code works) is an antipattern. The most senior people, people who literally have invented entire disciplines, still have their code reviewed and change it in response to feedback. My tech lead likes to say that "confusion is a signal" - if your code is so brilliant or clever that it leaves a brand new engineer going "wha?" then it means you have to fix it, regardless of how senior you are, since the code should be understandable by the average employee. And when I review code I don't expect to pass down edicts, and probably 10-15% of my comments receive pushback from the author. It has to be a real problem for me to actually refuse to accept a change - maybe that's happened twice for reasons of code quality and not the mundane stuff I mentioned earlier like "I planned to rewrite how that test worked anyway, let's hold off on this hacky fix since I'll fix it properly". I prefer to chat informally with the author (and, and as an author, vice-versa) to come to something mutually agreeable, which lets me understand their concerns and vice-versa - and we both learn something.

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  10. Alternative hypothesis... by LetterRip · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Or facebook doesn't get enough qualified women applying and thus hires less qualified women for programming jobs because they don't like the gender imbalance.

    This results in the average quality of female engineers being lower - resulting in both women not rising in the ranks and in lower quality patches.

  11. Exceptions don't make the rule by s.petry · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Women do not graduate with STEM degrees at the same rate as men. That you can find a single exception while ignoring the national statistics shows your own bias. Conversely, 61% of all medical doctors graduating are female. I could, like you did, point to a single school which graduates more men than women. That would not make the national numbers wrong, it would make me a fool for believing an exception makes it normal.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.