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Red Hat And IBM Will Vote Against Java's Next Release (infoworld.com)
An anonymous reader quotes InfoWorld:
The next edition of standard Java had been proceeding toward its planned July 27 release after earlier bumps in the road over modularity. But now Red Hat and IBM have opposed the module plan. "JDK 9 might be held up by this," Oracle's Georges Saab, vice president of development for the Java platform, said late Wednesday afternoon. "As is the case for all major Java SE releases, feedback from the Java Community Process may affect the timeline..."
Red Hat's Scott Stark, vice president of architecture for the company's JBoss group, expressed a number of concerns about how applications would work with the module system and its potential impact on the planned Java Enterprise Edition 9. Stark also said the module system, which is featured in Java Specification Request 376 and Project Jigsaw, could result in two worlds of Java: one for Jigsaw and one for everything else, including Java SE classloaders and OSGI. Stark's analysis received input from others in the Java community, including Sonatype.
"The result will be a weakened Java ecosystem at a time when rapid change is occurring in the server space with increasing use of languages like Go," Stark wrote, also predicting major challenges for applications dealing with services and reflection. His critique adds that "In some cases the implementation...contradicts years of modular application deployment best practices that are already commonly employed by the ecosystem as a whole." And he ultimately concludes that this effort to modularize Java has limitations which "almost certainly prevent the possibility of Java EE 9 from being based on Jigsaw, as to do so would require existing Java EE vendors to completely throw out compatibility, interoperability, and feature parity with past versions of the Java EE specification."
Red Hat's Scott Stark, vice president of architecture for the company's JBoss group, expressed a number of concerns about how applications would work with the module system and its potential impact on the planned Java Enterprise Edition 9. Stark also said the module system, which is featured in Java Specification Request 376 and Project Jigsaw, could result in two worlds of Java: one for Jigsaw and one for everything else, including Java SE classloaders and OSGI. Stark's analysis received input from others in the Java community, including Sonatype.
"The result will be a weakened Java ecosystem at a time when rapid change is occurring in the server space with increasing use of languages like Go," Stark wrote, also predicting major challenges for applications dealing with services and reflection. His critique adds that "In some cases the implementation...contradicts years of modular application deployment best practices that are already commonly employed by the ecosystem as a whole." And he ultimately concludes that this effort to modularize Java has limitations which "almost certainly prevent the possibility of Java EE 9 from being based on Jigsaw, as to do so would require existing Java EE vendors to completely throw out compatibility, interoperability, and feature parity with past versions of the Java EE specification."
Honestly, the whole Jigsaw thing, while interesting, didn't require all the internal replumbing they're doing. As for J9EE not running on Jigsaw, great! Does anyone still use EE for anything new? Pieces of it, sure, but EE as a whole? Who'd want that?
To be honest, simplifying the Java system into a solid core is great, but Jigsaw seems to break far too many things.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
I would love for older versions of Java to go away. The majority of the 80,000+ workstations I'm responsible for has the current version of Java installed. Some of these workstations have legacy applications that requires an older version of Java 6 by itself or with the current Java installed. Accidentally deleting an older version of Java can cause a blizzard of emails. Whenever I come across an older version of Java, I create a ticket for the local tech to evaluate.
And then there is Adobe Flash...
People need to stop using Java for everything, not because of personal preference but because of Oracle's incessant bullshit. Honestly, if OpenJDK hadn't originated from SUN then Java programmers would shit out of luck as Oracle would have had to crush them just to get to Google.
Stop supporting Oracle's eternal war and move to different languages!
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
"JDK 9 might be held up by this,"
Write once, wait everywhere. :-)
[ Disclaimer: I like Java. ]
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Let me guess IBM/Websphere is not ready so everyone has to wait for them??? How about we stick with EJB3 and ESB?
And still doesn't come anywhere close to C or C++.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
http://www.androidauthority.co...
While C is faster in some cases, java is faster in other cases starting with Android 6.0.
Personally, I think Java is the way to go until we invent another language which is clearly better and can easily and automatically be converted to from Java.
I saw the value of Java when it first came out. And I've seen many other languages come and go since which are less mature and frequently lose support after you commit to them. I know of more than one multi-million dollar application written in hot new languages which were subsequently end of life'd.
In one case, it also failed to replace the java application successfully and was tossed. The millions of dollars spent on the new application could have been spent polishing the java application- but our arcane tax rules favor new development over maintenance. In any case, 7 years later the java application is still being used.
Like Cobol, java is well suited for a wide range of applications but not all applications. And we have the potential to use the same code and programs 30 years from now without rewriting them again and again.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
I've written a couple apps in Java, run them weekly. That said, no way in hell will I allow a web browser to run Java (nor Javascript, and I know they are completely different). Don't see how either of my apps are security issues as neither touches the network. They scratch an itch, they do what I need them to do, I'm happy with them.
I vote against Java as well. Can we vote that it gets deleted from existence? That's my vote.
Java can't be deleted. Instead, you have to try to break all strong references to it, then hope that it gets garbage collected.
After what microsoft did to visual basic, I would never trust them with an enterprise/mission critical application I intended to use long term.
http://www.eweek.com/developme...
I worked in a shop which had large VB applications and they were told "convert or die". As if they could just print money and whip up a bunch of programmers to convert the applications. (It looks like microsoft eventually relented a bit but they didn't want to and I still don't trust them.)
Car manufacturers support their cars for 10 years after they stop making them.
Decades old COBOL still works and runs every day at many companies.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
IBM and Red Hat are correct:
The project seems to have slipped backwards, as this slide from 2014 indicates the implementation of version requirements.
Whereas the 2016 documentation stipulates:
"A module's declaration does not include a version string, nor constraints upon the version strings of the modules upon which it depends. This is intentional: It is not a goal of the module system to solve the version-selection problem, which is best left to build tools and container applications."
The State of the Module System
Anything less than Node's package requirements is going to be useless. There should be absolutely no wildcards in major version numbers, with warnings in medium. They are the curse of Node!
http://www.androidauthority.co... [androidauthority.com]
While C is faster in some cases, java is faster in other cases starting with Android 6.0.
Nothing in the article you linked supports your claim properly. There's not even a guarantee that the math program using FP that supposedly "won" in Java was identical in semantics given the different treatment of floats in C and in Java because we don't know what it did and what options were used for the C version.
Ezekiel 23:20
Fuck dynamic typing and fuck anyone that still advocates for it.
While C is faster in some cases, java is faster in other cases starting with Android 6.0.
As a falsehood this is fairly outrageous. Real benchmarks are available here.
Java must be considered good in its niche. Despite that, it's apparently necessary for you and others to write apologetics for it. As a language, it's verbose and unlovely. Worse than that, it's boring. Which of course makes it all the more suited for its purpose: most applications are boring. Boring code does what it's supposed to do in ways that are easy to understand.
Programming has two inheritances. The first is the theoretical foundation, stemming from the lambda calculus and that Turing guy. The second inheritance is that of the circuit and the capacitor: the actual mechanics of slinging bits around. It's probably fair enough to suggest that languages tend to favor either performance and bit-slinging or functional purity. Java occupies an uncomfortable niche in the sense that it is very much on the performance side of things rather than the functional, and yet it consistently falls short of C, and for that matter Rust and Erlang seem to stack up pretty well.
To borrow from Alan Perlis, "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing." Java may even be the perfect language of its category. It never goes on any adventures or does anything unexpected, and its performance is just fine, thank you. But you'll pardon me if I prefer
to
Java borrowed from stack overflow
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
I've not looked into Jigsaw / JSR 376 in any detail, so I can't comment on it's virtues or problems.
But I wonder if the bigger picture isn't being missed here - part of the reason why other languages are taking off is a lack of progress with Java. Although, I've always seen the calls for modularity a bit misguided - the classloader provides separation within a JVM when it is required. An "interpreted" mode (e.g. watches .java files for changes, and compiles / replaces the class behind the scenes) would be a big win for developer productivity.
It's about time for Java to die. The Oracle experiment was a failure.
For that matter, it's about time for Oracle to die. And Oracle trollmod employees can also FOAD.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Hey, we still have a product written in VB6. We inherited it from a company we bought years ago, and the main organization that still uses it sends us money now and again to add new features.
I don't know what hoops the developers who work on it have to jump through to get it to build and run on modern Windows, though. I think they do the development on VMs running XP.
Personally, I think Java is the way to go until we invent another language which is clearly better and can easily and automatically be converted to from Java.
Or you can just use Kotlin: modern syntax, lightweight (uses the JVM libs instead of inventing their own), pragmatic mix of procedural and functional, excellent interop with compiled Java, production ready (created and used by JetBrains for tools like their Idea IDE).
If you actually read TFA, Stark isn't vetoing Jigsaw so much as calling for a delay so they can add the features needed for read-world applications, before they finalize it and it causes a world of hurt. Originally I was like "I want my Jigsaw now, why is this guy making trouble?", but after reading his well-presented blog post I think Oracle and the Java community should be taking these concerns very seriously.
I also vote against Java.
I've been hearing comments like that for 35 years since I was programming in sweet 16 on the apple.
Kotlin has no jobs compared to mainstream languages and so it has no installed base. And so when a company needs to find a Kotlin programmer, it will take longer and they'll have less ability to judge the skill level of a Kotlin (or Scala) programmer.
At one shop a friend worked at it was "D". Never heard of it. Guy there was a big fanatic of the "D" language. And he helped found the company so he had some stroke in getting it used. When he left, that was it. They are almost entirely SQL with java.
Because it's easy to find people with SQL and Java. And because it's likely to be easy to find developers who have SQL with
java 15 years from now too.
So a replacement for Java can't merely be better. It has to be an order of magnitude better. It has to have widespread industry support.
This is all academic for me- I'm retired. I noodle a bit in openoffice basic (Star Fleet Battle damage program) and java (minecraft) but I haven't programmed on a daily basis for 6 years.
Perhaps things are changing, but I'm not seeing it yet.
I suspect if there is a new language, it will come from Android.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.