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'Google Is As Close To a Natural Monopoly As the Bell System Was In 1956' (promarket.org)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from ProMarket: In terms of market share and profit margins, the big digital platforms, particularly Google and Facebook, enjoy an astounding level of dominance. Google, in effect the world's largest media company, has an 88 percent market share in search advertising. Facebook (including Instagram, Messenger, and WhatsApp) controls over 70 percent of social media on mobile devices. Together, the two firms received 85 cents of every new dollar spent in online advertising in the first quarter of 2016. Amazon has an over 70 percent share in the e-book market. Along with Apple and Microsoft, they are now the most valuable companies (in terms of market capitalization) in the world. The rise of digital platforms has had profound political, economic, and social effects, not least of which on the creators of content. While the internet brought immense benefits to consumers of content, the so-called "creative class" -- authors, journalists, filmmakers, musicians, artists -- has been particularly ravaged by the digital economy. This ravaging, and its roots in the monopolization of content delivery and data in the hands of a few digital giants, are at the heart of the new book Move Fast and Break Things: How Facebook, Google, and Amazon Cornered Culture and Undermined Democracy by media scholar Jonathan Taplin. In the book, Taplin explores the way in which the internet came to be dominated by a handful of monopoly platforms, and the subsequent capturing of regulators that has since all but ensured their dominance would not be challenged in court. In an interview with ProMarket, Taplin said in response to a question: "I would say Google is as close to a natural monopoly as the Bell System was in 1956. If you came to me and said 'Hey, I want to start a company to compete with Google in search,' I would say you're out of your mind and don't waste your energy or your time or your money, there's just no way. Classic economics would say that if there's a business in which there are 35 percent net margins, that would attract a huge amount of new capital to capture some of that, and none of that has happened. That tells you there's something wrong."

248 comments

  1. Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've been saying this for years. When I started, people, even techies, still thought google "[did] no evil." I can't imagine anything will be done about this. Google will be intertwined with government in no time; they practically are now.

    1. Re:Been saying this for years by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Informative

      The defining characteristic of a monopoly is not market share, but lack of choice. Google dominates search, and I use it, but I could switch to Bing in 10 seconds. Likewise for advertisers, although Google has a large market share, they don't charge more per eyeball, because advertisers can easily switch.

    2. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same here, and yes, they really are that vile. Good luck getting people to pay for the alternatives, though, they have their users right where they want them. It's sickening.

    3. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Websites optimize for google, not bing or anyone else. It's not like some websites spend time optimizing for Google and others for Bing. Everyone optimizes for Google. Then other search engines have to try to create something competitive in a world optimized for their biggest competitor. It's a monopoly. There aren't real choices. Even the alternatives have to be Google-friendly just to survive. Google's algorithm could be objectively worse (for the sake of argument, assume that we could ascertain this), and they would still be the dominant force. The web itself bends to Google search, not the other way around. That's a natural monopoly. There is no real competition. Search works best when there is one dominant system, like the electric company. Google has a monopoly on search, and I think it would be wise to start talking about search being a public utility. Seriously.

    4. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is for the internet market. What are the stats for non-internet? E.g. 70% of ebooks sounds impressive until you find out that ebooks are less than 15% of the total book market. So that's 70% of 15% of the book market. And ebook stats are going down, not up. Call that a monopoly?

    5. Re: Been saying this for years by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Even on desktop, where Microsoft sets Bing as the default search engine, and even makes it unintuitive to switch to Google in its edge browser, users still overwhelmingly change their default to Google.

      And there's really nothing compelling them to do so; they simply have a preference for it.

      I'm usually all for the idea of breaking up monopolies, but I don't see any compelling reason to do so in this case, nor do I see any need for any kind of adverse action against them.

      Microsoft was different in that they forced OEMs to pay licensing for every PC sold, regardless of whether their software was included, and then if you needed to use a particular application, you had no choice of OS.

      Google may be in a similar boat in most parts of the world for Android, but not for the US or Japan. Though even for other parts of the world it's a stretch because iOS is a realistic choice, but Apple prices themselves out of most markets.

    6. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google will be intertwined with government in no time; they practically are now.

      Google is Not What It Seems

      Sourcewatch: International Crisis Group

      When The Bad Guys Came To Town

      derp derp derp BUT ITS NOT THE GOVERNMENT CENSORING YOU IT'S A PRIVATE COMPANY DERRRP

    7. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yes, and the definition of a "natural monopoly" is a monopoly in an industry in which high infrastructural costs and other barriers to entry relative to the size of the market give the largest supplier in an industry, often the first supplier in a market, an overwhelming advantage over potential competitors. (Wikipedia) By that definition, yes, the Bell System was a natural monopoly.

      The Bell System was also a natural monopoly because customers got the most value from it when everyone used it. In a wireline telephone network, it's best when everyone uses the same one, so they can all talk to each other. (Disclaimer - I worked for the Bell System. Our goal was universal, reliable service.*)

      As ShanghaiBill said, Google may have overwhelming market share, but it is not a monopoly. As for barriers to entry, set up a server and a web crawler, and you're a competitor. And as for benefits associated with everyone using the same search engine, actually, no, I can think of no way in which that applies to Google's services.

      *Judge Harold Greene put an end to that.

    8. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The defining characteristic of a monopoly is not market share, but lack of choice.

      I was going to say very similar. The situation is nothing at all like the 1950's Bell System.

      I wasn't alive in the 1950's but I was using the phone system routinely by the mid 1960's. There was no choice in the US. There was one and only one phone company.

      Today, I hate Google, and I don't use their services, but I have choices I can use instead. And if someone does use Google search and wants to switch, it is as simple as pointing your home page to another engine.

      The situations are not even close.

    9. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are thinking from end user perspective. Think from advertiser perspective. Google has full search market and FB has social media market.

    10. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Search engine is not just a server + web crawler. This is what it used to be. Today, google analyzes what page user clicks on and keeps refining the search. Even MS finds it hard to show the search result correctly because it does not enough data to determine which are good links. For that reason, MS for a while had a code in IE which checked your search string and which link you clicked on it and send that information to MS. Google engineer published research analysis on it. If MS can't do it, what are the chances and new comer can do it. So Google is a natural monopoly.

    11. Re: Been saying this for years by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly. Google's market dominance is as close to free consumer choice as one can get. There's absolutely nothing stopping someone from making a better search engine. It's not like Google controls the Internet. Bell literally controlled vast chunks of infrastructure, everything from the central switches right on down to your telephone. That's what makes a natural monopoly, not simply being the largest company in a particular business.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    12. Re:Been saying this for years by smelch · · Score: 1

      So right there are two choices for advertising, and then there is print media, television, radio, billboard, sign spinning.... lots of choices for advertising.

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    13. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Those are your two main choices for INTERNET advertising, nothing else even comes close.

    14. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > Think from advertiser perspective. Google has full search market and FB has social media market.

      Being a monopoly, or actually just being the largest supplier, is not illegal. Abusing a monopoly position is illegal.

      If, for example, Google required that their advertisers _only_ advertised on Google and not on other search engines, then that would be illegal. If Google dropped search results because the owner did not pay for advertising then that may be illegal also.

      I don't see any evidence of monopoly abuse, nor has any actual abuse been alleged.

    15. Re: Been saying this for years by hairyfeet · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Tell that to all the people that got Chrome shoved onto their system and made the default when they downloaded a completely unrelated program like CCleaner or Java. And how about how they bundle gapps into Android and make it impossible to remove...hmm, where did I see that before? Oh yeah windows and IE. They even ripped a page straight from the MSFT playbook as OEMs can't simply release Android devices free of gapps thanks to the nasty contracts Google pushes.

      If MSFT was pulling that shit? People here would be screaming for an investigation and fines....hypocrisy thy name is Slashdot.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    16. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Monopolies are being sanctioned by the federal government at his point. Look at all the recent multi-hundred-million dollar mergers.

    17. Re: Been saying this for years by smelch · · Score: 1

      Ok, so you've got two major avenues, and several smaller ones. So how is that a monopoly, even restricting your advertising to "Internet" advertising? Keep in mind though that the more specific you get you come close to "Apple is the only company I can get iPhones from".

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    18. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a red herring. What anyone optimizes for is irrelevant. It's completely inconsequential if someone chooses to try to raise their search rankings or not. If Google could choose they'd end SEO completely, they actively fight against it constantly. It's not a feature, it's a bug.

    19. Re: Been saying this for years by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Any response to this other than "I came here to say this" or "I just learned something new" is a bad response. You just won the internet. We can all go read another story now.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    20. Re: Been saying this for years by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 5, Informative

      Tell that to all the people that got Chrome shoved onto their system and made the default when they downloaded a completely unrelated program like CCleaner or Java.

      Honestly, I'd be surprised if you could even name anybody who has had this happen to them and was upset about it. If they were really that bothered by it, they could have easily avoided it. And even then, for Windows 10 users, Microsoft resets edge back to the default browser basically every 6 months (along with a bunch of other settings, like resetting Bing back to the default search,) and in order to change Chrome to the default browser, it takes three steps, and during each step Microsoft nags you to stick with Edge.

      Yet in spite of all of this, a majority of people opt to make Chrome their default browser. You can't even argue that they were somehow tricked into doing that because the way Microsoft redesigned things, there's no way that it can be anything other than a deliberate choice.

      And how about how they bundle gapps into Android and make it impossible to remove

      That's not quite true. As of Android 7, Google deliberately made it so that most bundled apps are moved to the user partition after first boot and can be subsequently deleted. The only ones that can't be deleted are the ones that are integral to the operation of other apps. For example, Google Maps is integral to the operation of apps like Strava or Endomondo, and thus can't be fully removed, though it can be disabled so that the main app is inaccessible (and likewise the icon isn't available in the app drawer.)

      If MSFT was pulling that shit? People here would be screaming for an investigation and fines....hypocrisy thy name is Slashdot.

      Very very false. Unlike Google, Microsoft bundles many apps that outright can't be removed or even have their icon nixed from the start menu. Examples include onedrive, onenote, cortana, skype, groove music, edge, maps, xbox, and a few others I can't think of at the moment.

      Some other annoying things that Microsoft does and Google doesn't include (as mentioned above) resetting all of your application defaults to Microsoft's applications after every major patch (roughly every 6 months) and including advertisements basically everywhere. Lock screen? Ad. Solitaire? Ad. Start menu? Ad. Explorer? Ad (namely OneDrive ads.) And that's not even getting into the bundled adware/trialware like Solitaire, Candy Crush, etc.

      Google includes neither ads nor adware in Android. Granted, some OEMs do, but on Windows the OEMs do much worse than that, like superfish for example, or how basically every single one of them includes trial antivirus software of some kind that constantly nags you to buy it while at the same time making you even more vulnerable to malware.

    21. Re: Been saying this for years by kqs · · Score: 1

      Tell that to all the people that got Chrome shoved onto their system and made the default when they downloaded a completely unrelated program like CCleaner or Java.

      Since most people who use IE or Edge switch their search engine to Google, and when Mozilla changed the default search most people changed it right back, I'm not thinking that there are hordes of people who got chrome on their computer and cannot figure out how to use Edge instead. Unless your argument is that only smart folks want to use Google and only idiots want to avoid Google?

      Also, MSFT *does* pull that shit. They change the default search engine to bing, they only ship IE and Edge and change browser defaults on some updates. And they are still losing. Which means that since MSFT has no monopoly power, there will be no investigations into MSFT.

    22. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have not seen CCleaner nor java install chrome without an opt-out.
      Bundling google apps in phones is unwanted, but understandable - this is no different from Microsoft installing new versions of IE in updates, even if the person does not use IE. Same applies to apple and safari.
      One clear distinction from now to the 90's is that there are competitors. Back then, it was IE and Mozilla/Netscape, and netscape was dying - the argument was why would anyone *buy* internet browser software if they got one free in the OS. Today, there are multiple browsers, so the customer has choice. Whilst there is choice, there is no monopoly - even if the the choice is only between two companies. As such apple and microsoft need each other, amd and intel need each other, nvidia and amd/ati need each other.

    23. Re:Been saying this for years by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2

      If MS can't do it, what are the chances and new comer can do it. So Google is a natural monopoly.

      What do you mean MS can't do it? Not only do they do it, but they specifically make it so that you can't opt out of it. They literally record every URL you type, every search term you use, and every link you click, and you aren't allowed to turn it off.

      To wit:

      https://docs.microsoft.com/en-...

      Browsing, Search and Query data

      This type of data includes details about web browsing, search and query activity in the Microsoft browsers and Cortana, and local file searches on the device.

      Text typed in address bar and search box
      Text selected for Ask Cortana search
      Service response time
      Auto-completed text if there was an auto-complete
      Navigation suggestions provided based on local history and favorites
      Browser ID
      URLs (which may include search terms)
      Page title

      While Chrome collects some of this data, you can in fact turn all of it off by simply unchecking everything in the privacy section. If you do that, then the only time Chrome pings Google's servers is when it's checking for updates, which you can verify with wireshark.

    24. Re:Been saying this for years by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 1

      natural monopoly is not evil.

    25. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember a time when Google themselves issues documentation regarding the hows and whys of not optimizing for the purpose of search rankings based on anything other than actual content. They would change their algorithms so keyword tags, title tags, etc.,... couldn't be gamed. The content only as an actual human visitor would see it on screen mattered. You know, the thing we all really want - type a search phrase into google and it would return only listing that had that actual phrase in the actual content visible by a human being.

      I wish I had been born either earlier so I wouldn't understand any of this shit or later so I would be naive to it. This is why gen-x people are pessimistic assholes. The boomers never knew about the red/pill blue pill option - ignorance is bliss. The gen-x people were only given the red option. The millennial were forced to take the blue option before they were old enough to know anything - again ignorance is bliss.

    26. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. Google having a better dataset doesn't prevent anyone else from developing one.
      Your argument is like saying that World of Warcraft has a monopoly on MMORPGs, or that a famous celebrity has a monopoly on fans.

    27. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The defining characteristic of a monopoly is not market share, but lack of choice.

      No, the defining characteristic of a monopoly is ability to control the market, and that is the basic definition that has been used since anti-trust laws were first passed.

    28. Re: Been saying this for years by Dog-Cow · · Score: 2

      A monopoly does not require a literal single source or player. In legal terms, a dominant position is enough to be considered a monopoly. A natural monopoly, on the other hand...

    29. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Bell system was the dominant system, especially for long distance service. There were a large number of small systems, including ITT and (if memory serves) GTE. From what I've read, many of the smaller telephone companies were quite inferior.

    30. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read some article on why they blocked Staples merger with OfficeMax (not Office Depot). That would have left two giant office specialty store along with Office Depot and many other small office store and non office store. Recently they blocked Staples and Office Depot because of the same concern. Within internet category, these two are the giants.

    31. Re: Been saying this for years by Voyager529 · · Score: 2

      I'll agree that the Chrome bundling has plenty of blame to go around, to the point where pinning even the majority on Google is unreasonable. I'll similarly agree that Microsoft resetting the PDF viewer and default browser and removing Classic Shell is obnoxious, problematically so, even.

      The Android side of things though, I disagree with you on. First off, The Maps dependency could easily be solved by having some sort of a stub saying "Maps isn't installed, would you like to install it through the Play Store?" if the app is removed but the API is called. That it is a 'system' app is disingenuous. Moreover, for the Win10 apps that don't have a simple uninstall, it is possible to run a Powershell script, or W10Privacy (and a number of similar tools) to remove them. It absolutely should be simpler to do, and I'm not giving MS a pass on that, but to remove 'system' apps on Android requires rooting, which tends to void warranties, ruin resale values (because of the eFuses), and prevent things like Samsung Pay and Snapchat from running, and even that can frequently cause an issue if the phone has a sufficiently locked bootloader. Personally, I feel that's an acceptable price to pay in order to limit Google to the Play Store and Play Services on my Android phone, but that's a far greater sacrifice than is required to remove the preloaded W10 apps.

      The trialware bundling has been a problem for quite a long time on Windows machines, and Lenovo got their head handed to them over Superfish - they provided a removal tool, haven't done it since, no other OEMs have followed suit, which is just as well because Windows Defender started flagging it as malware and removing it, too.

      I'm not a fan of either company's practices as both are anti-consumer, but if forced to pick a greater evil, I'll pick the one that doesn't give the end user root access and requires a warranty-voiding procedure to remove the preinstalled Map application if so chosen.

    32. Re:Been saying this for years by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 2

      No, as an advertiser, you can't so easily switch.

      If you are advertising your business, and you're not advertising on Google, I don't know you exist. Neither do most other of your potential customers. If you want to succeed as a business, you want to actually reach your potential customers, and the leaves you only one real choice.

      Your ability to switch to Bing doesn't matter, because you aren't the customer, you are the product. Even on Bing, as soon as you click a link, you'll be viewing ads sold by...Google.

    33. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft pulls that shit all the time, every podunk application asks to download some bing toolbar or other. If you don't read what you're installing you get what you deserve. Oh no! You need to change one setting, EVIL MONOPOLY FASCISTS!

    34. Re:Been saying this for years by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Re "Google will be intertwined with government in no time; they practically are now."
      Given the PRISM (surveillance program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... slides its been so for years.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    35. Re: Been saying this for years by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      First off, The Maps dependency could easily be solved by having some sort of a stub saying "Maps isn't installed, would you like to install it through the Play Store?" if the app is removed but the API is called.

      This has two problems:

      - You're actually counting on developers to properly detect whether or not it is present instead of just assuming that it is. (Believe it or not, this isn't as easy as it sounds.)
      - Dependency hell (see RPM of yore.)

      It's much easier, from a developer and usability standpoint, if the requisite libraries remain intact. Google Maps is such a common library on Android that it's just silly to get rid of it entirely. As I mentioned, you can always remove the user components of it, though I'm not sure why you'd want to do that to be honest; its bar none the best mapping app you can get anywhere. Besides, before Google Maps, having turn-by-turn car navigation was a luxury, now it's just something everybody has. Prior to Google, most phone manufacturers made you pay extra (usually a $10+ monthly fee) to have that, and now with Google you pay zero, plus it's a lot better than even dedicated GPS devices.

      Moreover, for the Win10 apps that don't have a simple uninstall, it is possible to run a Powershell script, or W10Privacy (and a number of similar tools) to remove them.

      This is only true for a handful of them. Try as you might, but you can never remove Cortana, Xbox, Edge, and a few others, no matter how hard you try. And even then, if you kill some otherwise non-uninstallable apps like Groove and Maps, the start menu does annoying things, like showing a blank icon that you can't get rid of.

      Oh, and did I mention that it's literally impossible to remove ANY of these apps from a Windows phone? Like you just plain fucking can't do it, no matter what.

      but to remove 'system' apps on Android requires rooting, which tends to void warranties, ruin resale values (because of the eFuses), and prevent things like Samsung Pay and Snapchat from running

      At least that's even possible. Try removing Cortana or Edge. Let me know how that works out for you. And at any rate, you can root without popping eFuses or voiding warranties (in fact, under Magnuson–Moss, it's illegal for a manufacturer to void your warranty just for rooting) and yes, you can even get Samsuck pay or Crapchat to work while rooted. Though truth be told, you don't have to remain rooted in order to delete these apps; once they're deleted you can safely unroot. Or you can forgo rooting entirely if you delete them from your recovery.

      And again, need I mention that it's literally impossible to remove ANY of these apps from a Windows phone? It's just fucking impossible.

      The trialware bundling has been a problem for quite a long time on Windows machines

      That's fine, except Microsoft now bundles it with stock Windows builds. It's literally impossible to obtain Windows without trialware/adware these days, unless you have a ton of money to buy an enterprise license.

    36. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So why does Google Analytics promote SEO? It's a business feature. It came into existence due to a feedback loop.

      Businesses have a goal to have high rankings and therefore attempt to alter themselves to increase traffic. They become aware of the underlying search algorithm and do their best to increase their odds. Meanwhile, effecting the very system designed to properly index them in a cyclical fashion.

      For Google, it's a way to make money beyond sponsored links. It also effects their popularity... it's an interesting feedback loop.

    37. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Each site optimize to be well ranked in Google. This doesn't mean it helps Google providing a ranking useful to the user. Quite the contrary, it makes their job harder.

    38. Re: Been saying this for years by nuckfuts · · Score: 0

      There's absolutely nothing stopping someone from making a better search engine.

      What a ludicrous statement. Do you have the slightest idea how much hardware alone it would require to build a search engine comparable to Google? The amount of capital investment required would be a far cry from "nothing".

    39. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see any evidence of monopoly abuse, nor has any actual abuse been alleged.

      Plenty of abuse have been alleged and proven.
      One thing that is illegal is for a monopoly to abuse its strong position in one market to crowbar itself into other markets.
      If it weren't then a monopoly could just use its profits from the market where they are dominant to subsidize their efforts in another market where they aren't dominant and force out any competition that has to break even.

      You know, like Google did with map services, and translation services.

      That was monopoly abuse and EU have bashed Google for it, but the fines were pretty insignificant to Google so they kept doing it.

    40. Re:Been saying this for years by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      As for barriers to entry, set up a server and a web crawler, and you're a competitor

      Do you have any idea how big that server needs to be and how much bandwidth that web crawler needs? Or how much processing power you need to even simple graph analytics like the original PageRank algorithm on a data set the size of a snapshot of the web? In particular, do you have any idea of the rate at which new content is added to the web and how quickly users expect it to appear in search result? When Google started, they licensed a big chunk of their initial data set from Yahoo! rather than spidering everything and it took weeks for new pages to appear in the index. That would be completely unacceptable for anyone starting to compete now.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    41. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google will be intertwined with government in no time; they practically are now.

      TOO LATE


      Google is getting WH [White House] and State Dept support and air cover. In reality they are doing things the CIA cannot do . . . [Cohen] is going to get himself kidnapped or killed. Might be the best thing to happen to expose Google’s covert role in foaming up-risings, to be blunt. The US Gov’t can then disavow knowledge and Google is left holding the shit-bag.

      captcha: miasma

    42. Re: Been saying this for years by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      Correct.

      And the fact that nobody would use your search engine because Google, means that you would never ever make a return on your initial investment.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    43. Re:Been saying this for years by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't that google has a monopoly. There's plenty of competition it's just all shit. Same goes for Facebook.

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    44. Re: Been saying this for years by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      There's absolutely nothing stopping someone from making a better search engine.

      Why don't you do it then?

      The reason is that it would require a huge investment in software and infrastructure which you would not be able to recoup because you will not be able to attract advertisers because nobody will be using your search engine because Google.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    45. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is why gen-x people are pessimistic assholes. The boomers never knew about the red/pill blue pill option - ignorance is bliss. The gen-x people were only given the red option. The millennial were forced to take the blue option before they were old enough to know anything - again ignorance is bliss.

      That depends on the field you work in. I'm a Boomer according to both the US Census Bureau and Strauss-Howe; I had inklings of the red/blue option around the time XP was released, and so did my contemporaries in tech - it was kind of 'in the wind'. OTOH, I'm pretty sure there are lots of gen-x folks who are as ignorant as the millenials.

    46. Re:Been saying this for years by KramberryKoncerto · · Score: 1

      Everything you say can be countered by one word that is Bing.

      Barrier of entry does make something evil per se; is Albert Einstein evil for the huge barrier for others to be the pop culture genius reference? It's only bad when there are barriers that are created for no reason but to reduce consumer choice and competition. Such as in Bell's case.

    47. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As I mentioned, you can always remove the user components of it, though I'm not sure why you'd want to do that to be honest; its bar none the best mapping app you can get anywhere.

      Uh. You forgot how the web version is extremely slow (and Google Earth on desktop doesn't show pictures anymore, unless that changed again), but even then it is disingenuous.
      In the same vein Windows is the best performing desktop OS, and Excel is the best spreadsheet. And Adobe is the reference PDF reader.
      Doesn't mean we shouldn't have other choices.

      In fact, Google Maps is the number one creepy app/service since its goal is to send every physical place you look at in there, and perhaps your physical location to some nameless Internet giant.
      Also, why do I absolutely need something "better"? I don't need some robotic voice to tell me where I need to go. I only need to look at a map to know where I want to go. And even without a map, having a general understanding of where I am and where I am going might be enough, with the huge infrastructure my country has : road signs, street names, town name at the entry and exit, printed plans on bus stops (well, on majors lines and stops)

    48. Re:Been saying this for years by bad-badtz-maru · · Score: 1

      You're forgetting that you are the product. Advertisers are the customer.

    49. Re:Been saying this for years by paiute · · Score: 1

      Websites optimize for AltaVista, not Ask Jeeves or anyone else. It's not like some websites spend time optimizing for AltaVista and others for Lycos. Everyone optimizes for AltaVista. Then other search engines have to try to create something competitive in a world optimized for their biggest competitor. It's a monopoly. There aren't real choices. Even the alternatives have to be AltaVista-friendly just to survive. AltaVista's algorithm could be objectively worse (for the sake of argument, assume that we could ascertain this), and they would still be the dominant force. The web itself bends to AltaVista search, not the other way around. That's a natural monopoly. There is no real competition. Search works best when there is one dominant system, like the electric company. AltaVista has a monopoly on search, and I think it would be wise to start talking about search being a public utility. Seriously.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    50. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's absolutely nothing stopping someone from making a better search engine.

      I'm amazed that nobody has done so already.

      What made Google great was that it always had what you were looking for in the top 10. That the search words were AND'ed (Altavista used OR, unless you added a + in front).

      Nowadays, I can almost count on none of the pages Google present having all of my search words, even if I add + and quotes and all.

      Google has become so bad that it would be really hard to make something worse. I can't even imagine how much it must cost Microsoft to continuously make Bing worse than Google.

    51. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have the slightest idea how much hardware alone it would require to build a search engine comparable to Google?

      Easy. A search box that ignores whatever you type in[1] and a database with the 100 worst Stackoverflow answers (preferably completely wrong answers) and a few thousand spam links.

      [1] Oh how many times have I tried the "cached" link, and then used ctrl-F in the browser to verify that what I'm searching for doesn't exist AT ALL on the pages Google returns.

    52. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason is that it would require a huge investment in software and infrastructure which you would not be able to recoup because you will not be able to attract advertisers because nobody will be using your search engine because Google.

      I've heard that before. Except they said "Altavista".

      Then a couple of guy from Stanford went out and put a couple of servers in a garage, with a search algorithm that actually found what you searched for - unlike Altavista back then and Google these days.

      And you know what - most people did stay with Altavista. But a few of us switched, and started telling people about this little new search engine that worked so much better - and a few years later, nobody even remembered altavista.digital.com.

    53. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe that's how they manage to make Bing so bad - by analyzing the data from the worst of the worst of users: Internet Explorer users.

    54. Re:Been saying this for years by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Who said anything about evil? We're talking about natural monopolies.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    55. Re: Been saying this for years by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      I use Yahoo! or AltaVista to search for websites on GeoCities or AOL.

      My life is complete. I am free.

    56. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are thinking from end user perspective. Think from advertiser perspective. Google has full search market and FB has social media market.

      And ublock keeps the ads out. Keep wasting money on google ads . . .

    57. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Install NoScript and block everything Google hosts. Now tell me how much of the web still works. You don't have to directly consume any Google products at all to be bound to them.

    58. Re: Been saying this for years by fincher69 · · Score: 1

      They even ripped a page straight from the MSFT playbook as OEMs can't simply release Android devices free of gapps thanks to the nasty contracts Google pushes.

      How does that jive with the whole line of Amazon Fire devices? Aren't those pretty much devoid of all things Google?

    59. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every one of the apps you mentioned *can* be removed from the Start Menu. Just right click and choose "Unpin from Start". You're correct, though, that they can't be uninstalled. And if somehow (probably with 3rd-party help" you *do* manage to uninstall one, it will come back at a future update because it's part of the core system.

      MS has gotten better in the last couple of "feature" updates about retaining your settings. Things do still change mysteriously, though. And note that all of those ads in the Lock Screen, Start Menu, etc. can be blocked by settings (which are not always obvious by their wording, but most of us commenting here are not total n00bs are we?).

      Ads and near-forced installation of other software by AVs, Adobe, etc. are a problem. They're not a MS problem. If you want to pay for something with real money, you can often avoid further nags/ads in apps. Or you can use something else that's less naggy. With apps, you do have a choice, and even the MS-supplied ones can be uninstalled and Windows *does* (now) respect that when system updates happen.

    60. Re:Been saying this for years by mjwx · · Score: 1

      The defining characteristic of a monopoly is not market share, but lack of choice. Google dominates search, and I use it, but I could switch to Bing in 10 seconds. Likewise for advertisers, although Google has a large market share, they don't charge more per eyeball, because advertisers can easily switch.

      I have to disagree, Google are a monopoly. What Google are not is an abusive monopoly. Google does not make it hard to switch from their products and services, Google makes their products and services good enough that you have no impetus to switch.

      Monopolies are not inherently illegal, it's abusing your dominant position that is illegal. Microsoft was never in trouble for being the dominant operating system vendor, they were in trouble for the the actions they took to maintain that position (I.E strong arming vendors).

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    61. Re:Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are advertising your business,...I don't know you exist.

      Who actually sees online advertising? Even if you're one of the great unwashed without an ad blocker, do you even notice any of the ads?

      I don't know why Google or any other company makes money selling advertising. They're definitely ripping off their clients. Advertising is a scam.

    62. Re: Been saying this for years by XXongo · · Score: 1

      ...What made Google great was that it always had what you were looking for in the top 10. That the search words were AND'ed (Altavista used OR, unless you added a + in front).

      Nowadays, I can almost count on none of the pages Google present having all of my search words, even if I add + and quotes and all.

      Indeed. I am often puzzled sometimes as to why Google gives pages in the top two or three hits that are missing one of my search terms.

      I would have thought "give the user hits that match what they are explicitly searching for would have been high on the list of what a search engine should do, but apparently that's not relevant according to google.

    63. Re: Been saying this for years by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Either way, it's a moot point. If you don't want all of that stuff, just disable the app. It's not like windows where disabling built in apps breaks shit.

    64. Re: Been saying this for years by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Amazon isn't a monopoly, Google is. Remember boys and girls antitrust laws say that a monopoly does NOT have to be 100% of the market, just that they are so large and powerful they can wield undue influence on the market...and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that doesn't think Google has reached that size.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    65. Re: Been saying this for years by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Hmmm...where did I hear that same horseshit before? Oh yeah MSFT at the antitrust trial over IE.

      Thanks for just providing a perfect example of the hypocrisy, because if a MS spokesman or even fan claimed the same shit you are shoveling when it came to MSFT using the same shit that Bonzibuddy used to shove their browser and make it default, lock OEMs into contracts where they cannot remove gapps (again EXACTLY what MSFT did with the OEM contracts insuring IE was the only browser that came on windows desktops) and going one further and making it so you have to find a way to jailbreak the system just to remove their programs? Everyone would be screaming antitrust as loud as they could.

      Again just another example of the blatant hypocrisy when it comes to Google, because if MSFT tried to pull that shit? I guarantee you and everyone else here would be screaming bloody murder!

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    66. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Completely true. Standard Oil was natural monopoly and was obsoleted by Edison Labs. Bell was unnatural monopoly and was obsoleted by Google et al. Monarchy was unnatural monopoly replaced by freedom.

    67. Re: Been saying this for years by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      Unlike Google, Microsoft bundles many apps that outright can't be removed or even have their icon nixed from the start menu.

      Not to mention the practice of automatically deleting applications from your system with no prior warning, let along asking your permission. MS insists they only do it because the apps are "incompatible", but they don't tell you why, of course.

    68. Re:Been saying this for years by Maritz · · Score: 0

      Everyone optimizes for Google.

      Google actively don't want you to 'optimise' for them because it compromises their fucking ranking system. That's a dumb as fuck comment.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    69. Re:Been saying this for years by Maritz · · Score: 1

      The millennial were forced to take the blue option before they were old enough to know anything - again ignorance is bliss.

      Better to be a sad Socrates than a happy pig.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    70. Re: Been saying this for years by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Tell that to all the people that got Chrome shoved onto their system and made the default when they downloaded a completely unrelated program like CCleaner or Java.

      I'm pretty sure I've seen that. Along with the checkbox that says 'install Chrome'. You make it sound like it's a completely silent install much like those PUPs (ask Jeeves etc). Sounds a tad implausible.

      Are you quite certain it is automatically made default? I seem to recall that being done via prompt/reminder.

      The shrill tone doesn't help much with credibility tbh.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    71. Re: Been saying this for years by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Exactly. I suspect one of the reasons why Google seems to provide rather poor results as of lately is everyone is gaming Google's system to have their site ranked higher for searches where it really shouldn't be ranked that high. Other search engines have the advantage that no one bothers to game them so they can work on improving their ranking algorithms instead of keeping ahead of those that try to break them.

    72. Re: Been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. Google's market dominance is as close to free consumer choice as one can get.

      LOL, so why is Google dumping _BILLIONS_ of dollars of cash on companies (like Apple) to make their search engine the default, and to bundle Chrome if people were going to install it anyway?

      Man, Hope you Google shills get paid well, but dude.. come up with better propaganda. Google simply paid their way to the market-share they have. Free market.. haha.. thats a good one !!

      https://www.macrumors.com/2016...

  2. What's stopping the competition? by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

    I'd really like to know.

    capturing of regulators

    Exactly! Just like in transportation, energy, and other forms of communications. And aren't we the ones that vote for the 'regulators'? Don't blame Google for winning. Look to yourselves to vote for open markets. Vote the captured regulators out.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    1. Re:What's stopping the competition? by mysidia · · Score: 2

      More like Google has WILLINGly captured consumers, And nobody has been able to make a better search engine than Google.

      Although Bing came close...... the fact is, by and large Google has the more appetizing product.

      Sure other companies would LIKE to compete, But you need a lot of smart people to try, Who would probably rather do something else more
      innovative than just try to copy Google, And the investment required is massive.

      Before you propose competing against Google.... You first have to ask yourself; In what way is Google lacking, AND, could you possibly expect to provide a service at least Comparable if not better enough to capture Google's customers?

      Probably the answer is almost a universal No, for people thinking about trying to create a competing search Engine.
      Also, to be succesful, the Advertising system, Anti-Fraud, and establishment of partnerships cannot be an AfterThought, either, there are probably a million plus business considerations to address.

    2. Re:What's stopping the competition? by h4ck7h3p14n37 · · Score: 3, Informative

      And nobody has been able to make a better search engine than Google.

      Have you not heard about DuckDuckGo?

      Way better than using Google if you care about your privacy.

    3. Re:What's stopping the competition? by GLMDesigns · · Score: 2

      Open markets != government regulators in the pockets of companies.

      The whole purpose behind laissez-faire economics is to reduce the influence of government peddling. The whole criticism of a mixed economy (slippery slope and all that) is that the inevitable result is corporatism. The solution may be counter-intuitive to you but you can combat corporatism with free market capitalism. The two are opposed to each other. This is a place where left and right can make some temporary alliances in combating the rise of corporatism (which in yesteryear was called mercantilism).

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    4. Re:What's stopping the competition? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      capturing of regulators

      Why does on-line search need to be "regulated"?

    5. Re: What's stopping the competition? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google didn't 'win'. They lied and cheated. If you believe otherwise, or you believe that this is acceptable, you probably deserve exactly what they are giving to you.

    6. Re:What's stopping the competition? by jwhyche · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why does on-line search need to be "regulated"?

      Because you never can know when your hobby or innocent curiosity can get you locked up and used against you.

      For instant if I want to know something I look it up, and I rarely think about the consequences. I have a strange fascination with nuclear weapons. Their history, how they are made, how they would be deployed, and under what circumstance would they be used. It's probably safe to say that outside someone with a security clearance I know almost everything that can be known.

      Does this mean I have any incantation to build a nuclear device in my basement or blow up a city with one. Not in the slightest, but you can't tell that from my search history.

      Without that protection out of context just about anything you search for can be used to hang you. Just because you google "how to excite 12 year old girls" doesn't mean you are cursing for jail bait.

      --
      I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
    7. Re:What's stopping the competition? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Bing provides much better results for videos and images, especially if you don't like things being censored/filtered.

    8. Re:What's stopping the competition? by LunaticTippy · · Score: 2

      I like ddg but it is a far worse search engine than google. It respects privacy but please don't claim that it is superior, or even one hundredth as good as google's engine.

      Google isn't big for no reason. Their search engine is fantastic and their integration with other services makes things really easy. You won't take google on by denying reality.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    9. Re:What's stopping the competition? by bistromath007 · · Score: 1

      Regulators are appointed, and their names and connections are too numerous for the elected officials who appoint them for most people to bother trying to hold them accountable. Furthermore, because their terms often bridge administrations and congresses, they tend to accrue power which they can use to heavily influence elections in their favor. This is part of what is referred to as the "deep state." It is wholly undemocratic, and voting cannot make it democratic. The time to abandon the soap and ballot boxes for the bullet box was decades ago.

    10. Re: What's stopping the competition? by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      It's probably impossible to beat google while respecting privacy.

      Just as lack of privacy helps them match the ads you're most likely to respond to to you, it helps them match the results.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    11. Re:What's stopping the competition? by lessthan · · Score: 1

      But without regulation, you have the rise of monsters. So rather than striving for a free market utopia, we need to find ways to keep corporate money out of politics. How does we successfully fight corruption?

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    12. Re:What's stopping the competition? by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So you're saying in order to prevent the government from using your search history against you, you want to make sure the government is in charge of controlling search history information?

      Something about that logic doesn't seem quite right...

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    13. Re: What's stopping the competition? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 0

      Google respects privacy as much as your friend does when you tell him something personal. You tell Google stuff, Google doesn't tell anyone else. How is that not respecting privacy?

    14. Re: What's stopping the competition? by Cmdln+Daco · · Score: 1

      Your best friend doesn't write it down. There isn't a looming possibility at any time that somebody will 'take over' your best friend and now have everything personal you told him.

    15. Re: What's stopping the competition? by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      If my friend is selling ways for strangers to contact me based on my insecurities and failures as a person, they're not a very good friend.

      Note, I still use Google, I accept the price I pay for their service, but they are a useful acquaintance and not a friend.

      Google uses all of my private information for profit, they also use it to help me (I love google now), but my friends only do the second, and I hope yours do too.

      Tracking private info is less respect to privacy than duck duck go, but an amount I'm willing to trade for better results.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    16. Re: What's stopping the competition? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have not yet payed the price for their service.
      The time when you are actually paying it might never come, but if it does, you will wish you never used the service.
      It is not a price to pay as much as it is a risk you run, of which you cannot fathom the potential consequences.

    17. Re:What's stopping the competition? by hackertourist · · Score: 1

      incantation

      cursing

      But now we know where your real interest lies ;)

    18. Re:What's stopping the competition? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      or even one hundredth as good as google's engine.

      Maybe it's because I don't use Google and so it isn't trained for me, but I switched to DDG a few years back (originally because they had a better UI, the privacy was a nice bonus) and it's been about 18 months since I failed to find what I wanted on DDG and did on Google. If you type !google into your DDG search box, it will send you to Google so it's easy to fall back to Google if you don't get the results you want first time. My partner switched about a year ago and she hasn't noticed any decline in search result quality. I suspect that a big part of this is that people spend a lot of money trying to game Google, but don't bother so much with smaller search engines.

      I have noticed one big difference though: Google lies about search results a lot more. If DDG doesn't find anything relevant, it will say so. Google will give me hundreds of pages of completely irrelevant results to wade through.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    19. Re:What's stopping the competition? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trying to make a nuke with an incantation will get you nowhere. Well maybe in Gamma World it might work.

    20. Re:What's stopping the competition? by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      The reason Google has a more appetising product is because almost everybody uses it. That means people who want to advertise (Google's consumers/customers) have to advertise on Google in preference to any other search engine.

      As somebody who uses Google Search, you are not the consumer, you are the consumed.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    21. Re:What's stopping the competition? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is not with serving up search result, but Google having the majority of the advertising market. If you want to reach potential customers, there's no way around Google

    22. Re:What's stopping the competition? by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      Free market != anarchy. Free market capitalism would still have regulations. Do you think that free market capitalists say that there should be no rules for the road? The stop signs cannot exist because they're put there by government? Or that we can drive which ever way we want? No.

      Free market is not anarchy. Menger, von Mises, Hayek, Freidman were not anarchists.

      A simple example:

      Can you smoke in a bar? And who decides.

      Free market solution: Let the bar owner decide. Enough people want smoke free bars that the overwhelming majority of bar owners would chose smoke free.

      Can you smoke on a sidewalk? Let the people decide as it is a common space. I prefer referendums for issues like this but accept decisions made by elected officials.

      Can you smoke in an office? Ah. That's a gray area. And that would have to go through the court system. Free market capitalists are not for small government (read low taxes). They are for limited government. In times of war, think of WWII, if the cost of defending yourself reaches 50% of GDP then ... that's what it costs. But the Federal Government is ( or should be ) limited in what it does. The Federal Government is simply the framework for all the states.

      If you think YOUR state should provide free health care fight for it. This is not the pervue of the federal government. I will fight against in my state but will not lift a finger against you in yours. We will then see how your policy works. I think it will fail. You, the proponent of Universal Health Care, thinks it will succeed. We'll see.

      This is the way people with vastly different ideas can co-exist well. When the Federal Government becomes all-powerful then we will fight each other tooth and nail on every single issue.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    23. Re:What's stopping the competition? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honestly, I think Google pays to keep bing and yahoo shit.

    24. Re:What's stopping the competition? by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      Bing is better if you're searching for pr0n.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    25. Re:What's stopping the competition? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DuckDuckGo is just a search aggregator.

      They act like a VPN for searches, then your search is done on Bing/Google from their servers. Since Bing/Google can't tell one user from the next, they gain little insight except for about DDG searchers as a whole.

    26. Re:What's stopping the competition? by lessthan · · Score: 1

      What is the purpose of government at all? Is it simply to create stable markets?

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    27. Re:What's stopping the competition? by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      Anyone can be framed. Anyone. Regardless of your search history, thoughts, curiosity, or innocence.

      Anyone.

    28. Re:What's stopping the competition? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does this mean I have any incantation to build a nuclear device in my basement or blow up a city with one.

      If you knew magic why would you even need a nuke?

    29. Re:What's stopping the competition? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Every year, National Novel Writing Month provides structure for hundreds of thousands of 50K-word novels. Read the forums sometimes. Writers ask the strangest questions, not always about legal things.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    30. Re:What's stopping the competition? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The purpose of government is whatever those who installed it wants it to be. In a democracy - it is what the voters wants.

      Some voters may want small government and basically have gov to keep markets free. Others like big governments and vote to have "free" healthcare backed by 30% income tax.

      A dictator uses the government as a tool to stay in power. Usually a small-type government, mainly army and police.

    31. Re:What's stopping the competition? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am on that same boat. I find that it's very noticeable how DDG shows non-bubble results.

      Also, there are all sorts of bangs! to search in Wikipedia or programming docs that make it fast to go to any keyword in that page.

      (By the way, you can make it shorter with !g in the query to have it search with Google.)

    32. Re:What's stopping the competition? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you type !google into your DDG search box, it will send you to Google ...

      As noted

      ... !g is shorter

      ... !gm for search Google maps

      ... !gs for search Google shopping

      ... !gi for search Google images

      ... !w for wikipedia

      ... !a for Amazon

      And they have over 9000 more BANG searches:

      https://duckduckgo.com/bang

      Maybe even one for gang bang porn.

    33. Re:What's stopping the competition? by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Have you not heard about DuckDuckGo?

      What are the benefits of DuckDuckGo? I tried visiting it and searching for some obscure things,
      and the results left alot to be desired, whereas Google directed me to a useful starting point.

    34. Re:What's stopping the competition? by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      Because you never can know when your hobby or innocent curiosity can get you locked up and used against you.

      Or you click on an innocent-looking link, or you're a phishing victim, or a nice piece of Javascript comes along and pats you on the head.

    35. Re:What's stopping the competition? by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      The purpose of the government in general is to uphold the social contract which is:

      "I promise not to kill you and take your stuff if you promise not to kill me and take mine."

      It's not "I promise to stop everyone from eating trans-fats if you promise to stop everyone from smoking."

      The US is built on the concept of an extremely limited Federal Government and allows almost total leeway for states, So the Federal Government should be small. It should deal with foreign affairs (including military), interstate trade conflicts and, by extension externalities such as pollution, and interstate transport.

      Everything else - namely social services - should be done by the states.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    36. Re:What's stopping the competition? by mysidia · · Score: 1

      As somebody who uses Google Search, you are not the consumer, you are the consumed.

      Nonsense. Of course you are the consumer for the Google Search Service, which is a free service with some strings.

      You are also at the same time providing the Audience Google is selling through a different service called AdSense.

    37. Re:What's stopping the competition? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My girls, 11 and 13 years old, get very excited from baking cake.
      I know they aren't exactly 12, but I think in this case it's safe to interpolate the data.
      Hope this helps.

  3. Google isn't protected like AT&T was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yes, they do have hundreds of thousands of rack-mounted servers in data centers around the world, but so does Amazon, and companies can rent virtual servers in them.

    AT&T provided universal point-to-point phone service. There was just no way to compete against that until a Federal judge broke up the company in the early '80s (sure, the Internet with VOIP might've done the job, but that came more than 10 years later).

    Who's to say that Google's search bar and query results, accompanied by targeted ads, will be good enough for the public ten or even five years from now. There's plenty of room for innovation and entrepreneurship. I'll bet Jeff Bezos has more than one pet project aimed squarely at Google search right now.

    1. Re: Google isn't protected like AT&T was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you mean the old AT&T that was broken up into the RBOCs that later became the new AT&T that was no different?

      Yeah, I thouht that was the same one too.

    2. Re: Google isn't protected like AT&T was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The new AT&T is Southwestern Bell, which has a landline monopoly in a big region of the country, but nobody under age 70 uses landlines for phone service anymore. Those last mile copper lines are still a valuable asset for other services though.

    3. Re:Google isn't protected like AT&T was by rahvin112 · · Score: 2

      The comparison in the article is absurd. ATT had a massive in ground copper network that would have required billions to replicate. Google has a bunch of Data centers and rented fiber. And upstart competitor can rent infrastructure and duplicate their network with almost no initial investment beyond the ongoing monthly rental charges.

      ATT had the very essence of a natural monopoly with a massive last mile copper network. To duplicate Google you need nothing close to that.

    4. Re:Google isn't protected like AT&T was by postbigbang · · Score: 2

      Not true, at all. The US was a hodgepodge of phone companies, state tariffs, interstate tariffs, intrastate tariffs, LATAs, and was owned by a lot of co-ops. Some still remain... use Cincinnati Bell as an example.

      But the *Interstate* and International walls that AT&T built made it devilishly hard to compete with. There was ITT, and a handful of others doing this. The "Bell System" became a storied, non-innovating monolithic retirement plan.

      AT&T Long Lines used to use refrigerator-sized behemoths to cart data at an astounding 56Kbaud. They had good engineering designed for a 20yr depreciation schedule tailored to the profits of AT&T.

      Can Google be broken up? EASILY. Alphabet made it simple for a Taft-Hartley Act action, but it won't happen. Why? The US DOJ can barely find a keyboard, let alone understand the tech industry. There is no motivation to kill what are considered cash cows. Let's not discuss those pesky offshore trillions in profits, but no, the Google Ad Words oil pumps the oil from the basement, and is untouchable.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    5. Re:Google isn't protected like AT&T was by vlad30 · · Score: 2

      Yes, they do have hundreds of thousands of rack-mounted servers in data centers around the world, but so does Amazon, and companies can rent virtual servers in them.

      I'll bet Jeff Bezos has more than one pet project aimed squarely at Google search right now.

      This is the problem today It would take someone the size of Amazon to even make a competitor for google. the only hope if you came up with a great idea for search engine is to get investors, The cost to setup a single data centre on the off chance you may be able to compete would scare away any likely investors.

      --
      Your'e all thinking it, I just said it for you
    6. Re:Google isn't protected like AT&T was by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      There's also no proof that Google is abusing their position to stifle competition.

    7. Re: Google isn't protected like AT&T was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you even read? The monopoly is their ads service, not their search. It is right in the summary.

  4. Did 'Ma Bell' ever... by evolutionary · · Score: 0, Troll

    Have weekly visits to the white house like Google apparently did under the Obama Administration?

    --
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Einstein
  5. It's not a monopoly at all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nobody is stopping the competition from sprouting.
    The only thing stopping it, is that the competition all SUCK compared to what Google is offering.
    If you offer a better product, people will switch. But as it is, Google is king because the alternatives are either Yahoo or Bing. Or DuckDuckGo which really is essentially just piggybacking on other search engines. "Duck it" just isn't as catchy as "google it".

  6. what a load of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    This comment is pretty absurd. When Google was looking for venture funding, there were already several well established search vendors. Almost all VC told Google the same thing, dumb idea move along. Yes, Google has captured a lot of advertizing business. All while the cost of those ads has been driven way down... and they've passed a lot of this onto us... in the form of a lot of free tools. (Free save for the eyeballs we put on those ads). I for one, love my Chrome browser and gmail.

    1. Re:what a load of... by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 2

      Not really. At the time there were a lot of players with small marketshare operating in a contestable market (much lower entry barrier than they would face today). That project was destined to be funded. Today, a startup looking to compete with Google on search is doomed, even if they have a brilliant idea.

    2. Re:what a load of... by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 0

      No, a startup looking to compete with Google is only doomed if they can't actually compete with Google.

      They'd have to produce a product which is better than Google's. Almost as good as isn't enough.

      But if someone provided search results which eliminated spam results completely and did a much better job of showing you the pages you actually wanted to see, then it'd take you what, about 10 seconds to switch? The advertisers would follow the users.

      The problem you are seeing is that Google is currently better than their competition for most searchers, so they are winning. If they stopped being better, they would begin losing. Myspace was a fake "monopoly" like that, then suddenly they weren't anymore, right? Myspace didn't change, their competitors outdid them and they fell quickly. Same in the search space.

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    3. Re:what a load of... by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 1

      It was much easier to build a better Myspace than to build a better Google. Facebook did it on a shoestring budget. A Google competitor will need big funding just to get the hardware necessary to show a POC, and nobody will fund it without seeing a POC.

    4. Re:what a load of... by Cmdln+Daco · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I for one, love my Chrome browser and gmail.

      Winston Smith loved Big Brother by the end of the book, too.

      A few months ago Google stopped letting me use pop.google.com for two Gmail accounts at once with my Sylpheed email client. I can still log onto the google.com web portal to read the mail on the second account.

      At that point in time I decided Google was being too controlling. I actively went out to find a robust commercial email provider who would charge me a few dollars a month for unencumbered and non-data mined email service. There are such providers out there, and it's worth it.

    5. Re:what a load of... by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

      Hardware/bandwidth is a set of AWS instances away, enough for any sort of demo needed. Heck, if someone had an actual break-through idea, Amazon or Bing would probably fund them enough up front to prove it out.

      Either way, a POC to get funding doesn't require that much. Plenty of groups spider the web without too much. For a POC, they wouldn't have time constraints for refresh, or even need to deliver performance to the world like Google does, as long as they can demonstrate whatever it is which makes their version better, that's enough to get funding from lots of interested competitors.

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    6. Re:what a load of... by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 1

      It's impossible to say what it's going to take to make a Google-killer, it's obviously going to involve huge resources and AI. The barrier to entry and uneven access to the tech make it impossible for a start-up in my opinion. Maybe China will make one. Or maybe you're right and a couple of harvard kids will, but I doubt it.

    7. Re: what a load of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any recommendations?

    8. Re:what a load of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A 'small startup' would, sure, but MS has Bing, Facebook has their platform etc. 'Needing alot of money to compete' does NOT equal 'natural monopoly', especially since the whole concept is a moving target. The post office had a 'natural government sponsored monopoly' on delivery of mail, including packages, there would seemingly be no way a 'private delivery company' could compete, now we have UPS, FedEx, DHL & many smaller companies and of course e-mail so nobody sends snail-mail anymore and the only thing I now get in my mail are bills (that I've chosen to get electronically) and O look 'advertising'.

      The whole concept of a 'natural monopoly' is an outdated concept that has rarely been shown to actually prove to exist other than to be used as a means to create 'government sponsored monopolies'. If the government didn't create one, they wouldn't exist.

    9. Re:what a load of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which just goes to show you have no clue, or Google has done such a great job that you've never, ever heard of Bing or that Facebook themselves try to keep you in their 'walled garden' & provide your 'search' for you. Both of those companies have the 'huge resources' and working on AI and NEITHER of them has had any significant inroads here...this is NOT about how big the problem is, it's that Google still does a much better job then others in the 'search' area.

      You don't have to like Google (or Alphabet the parent company) but just once in a while people should at least acknowledge that companies like this do a 'better job' than anyone else. If you have a better idea or way to do things then all you want is not to have the government artificially constrain you & hand the monopoly to your competitor which is how most monopolies have ever been created.

    10. Re:what a load of... by schweini · · Score: 1

      POP3 access to gmail still works for me, via Thunderbird? Google does seem to make you jump through some security hoops sometimes to confirm that you want to use an "insecure app", but that they block POP3 is news to me?

    11. Re:what a load of... by RyoShin · · Score: 1

      It's a weird report to me, as well; I have two separate Gmail accounts that I access through POP3 Thunderbird, and I haven't had a hiccup with them since I first set those profiles up.

  7. What Tosh! by thadtheman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People in 50s had to use Bell or no telephone system at all!

    With google just the opposite. Mint makes it a struggle to set your search to google. They force Yahoo on you. MS products push Bing on you. I really have to go out of my way to use google.

    People choose google, because they like it , not because of some monopoly influence.

    1. Re:What Tosh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mint makes it a struggle to set your search to google. They force Yahoo on you.

      FUD much? It's not even Mint maintianers that did that. It was Moz://a that ended the contract with Google to provide search and switched to Yahoo. And Mint installs FireFox not Chromium.

    2. Re:What Tosh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Are you stupid?

    3. Re:What Tosh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Google might not be a monopoly for users, but they pretty much are for web advertising (their actual business).

    4. Re:What Tosh! by sims+2 · · Score: 2

      https://www.linuxmint.com/sear...
      These search engines do not share the revenue Linux Mint users generate for them and/or do not preserve your privacy:
      Google is the 7th one listed.

      --
      Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
    5. Re:What Tosh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      People choose google, because they like it , not because of some monopoly influence.

      No, people choose google because there's quite literally no better option out there (at least for the search engine and youtube). Microsoft has been trying to compete for years now and still doesn't even come close. Bing is way inferior to Google's search except when you're looking for porn, outlook web app is downright painful to use (especially on mobile where it becomes completely unresponsive for no reason) etc.

      They may not be a monopoly the same way Bell was, but they're a monopoly nonetheless. Nobody can compete with them right now and the gap is only widening due to a lack of real competitors. Their services are so popular and ubiquitous that even if an amazing alternative suddenly popped up, I'd wager a lot of people wouldn't even bother to make the switch.

    6. Re:What Tosh! by sims+2 · · Score: 1

      I can manage one or maybe two searches on yahoo before I can't stand having to scroll past all the ads anymore and change it to something decent.

      --
      Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
    7. Re:What Tosh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People choose google, because they like it

      I'm not saying they're a monopoly, but what you just described is what happens with natural monopolies. They'll be the most efficient, so they'll often be deemed "best" by many metrics.

      Calling a company a monopoly isn't necessarily a charge of any sort of wrong-doing or anti-competitive behavior. Don't think that just because they're good instead of shitty, that it means they're not a monopoly.

      Consider the ALCOA case. (Look it up.)

    8. Re:What Tosh! by cloud.pt · · Score: 2

      The moment people stop realizing the choices they make are actually being done for them - that's when we should be worried. But we should mostly be worried on a personal level, not as a forum.

      You, me, whoever, need Google, and Google's business is not that they want you to use it, is that they want you to need it. Android being open-source should be a clear testament to that - they knew FOSS would get all the big players in line and the loud players in check, and now the world eats Android for breakfast, even though some still eat Apples at the end of that meal. Google has known full well, for long, they can pretty much do that with diversity and centralization - Play, Play Services, Docs, Gmail, Analytics, Photos, Chrome, etc. But even so, big data and big diversity is still not their true goal, it's their means to get you hooked up on that Google sugar. Like Facebook, Messenger, Whatsapp, Instagram, Snapchat, whatever service from whatever else, adoption is the exit strategy, and so they keep entering in new markets so they can exit eternally, recurrently. It gets to a point when it's actually hard to fuck that up, and I guess that is what the OP defines as Natural Monopoly.

      This isn't intrinsically evil, in my opinion, but it ends up being necessarily bad, just like every decision from every business who has to answer to stock/share holders - they need to grow. Stagnation is the point a company stops making money and starts surviving, and everybody knows in the current market, not evolving is no longer such a slow death. So yeah, Google's strategy eventually led up to the "monopoly of digital choice", but everybody still gets to be individually responsible for what they do and what they share. This is actually why the state gets away with secret subpoeanae for supposedly private data to such companies - they are supposed to call dibs on a such a system because that system has your agreement to PPs, ToS's and/or EULA's. So since you have to abide to those, and those are "regulated", just be careful at the individual level on your uses, not your choices, and educate the ones you love (or the ones you for some reason teach for a living) in the very special art that is managing your digital life, much like the AFK one.

      On a side note, I think Google has always been a step ahead of others mostly because it has better ways to centralize (create the theorists so-called Content) individual, personal needs in a much more organic fashion. Even Facebook, who pretty much rides the viral wave, looks blatantly doomed to the eventual mass awareness of intellectual self-respect. I can LAMELY summarize: Facebook will die out of individual needs of individuality - when everyone is liking and doing the same, the hipster factor will kick in.

      All in all, I actually believe most of Google's B2B endeavors only exist for Silicon Valley internal "politics". Such as Adsense, which ultimately is just the big money point of entry. And it's not even being effective that makes it profitable, it's being ubiquitous and constant (as in time). Like Google. Man they should make "Like Google" their tagline.

    9. Re:What Tosh! by Place+a+name+here · · Score: 2

      People choose google, because they like it , not because of some monopoly influence.

      People choose Google because they like it.
      They like Google because Google provides good results.
      Google provides good results because they have huge datacenters and extreme amounts of data.
      The cost of acquiring huge datacenters and extreme amounts of data provides a barrier to entry.
      This barrier to entry produces a natural monopoly.

      And so it is. Not all monopolies have to be ordained by the State.

    10. Re:What Tosh! by jader3rd · · Score: 1

      People choose google, because they like it

      I don't know if they do like it. I asked someone who talked about switching default settings on his latest device, if they found the default search to be inferior. He said that he didn't; he just wanted to switch because he was a creature of habit.

    11. Re:What Tosh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for the reminder that the Mint developers are unprofessional hacks.

  8. utility by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    This is why such businesses are considered utilities and subject to different rules.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    1. Re: utility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just to make clear, google is not a utility.
      You do not have to use, nor are you stuck with it like your water, sewer, gas, trash, or electric.

    2. Re:utility by kqs · · Score: 1

      The internet is now a utility. You can no longer apply for most jobs without internet access.

      Google, however, is not a utility. You may need to use search engines, but you can easily switch to another search engine. Much like you have to eat, but you can easily switch restaurants so Taco Bell is not a utility (nor, possibly, a restaurant...)

    3. Re:utility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You may need to use search engines, but you can easily switch to another search engine. Much like you have to eat, but you can easily switch restaurants so Taco Bell is not a utility (nor, possibly, a restaurant...)

      In the future, all restaurants are Taco Bell.

    4. Re:utility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is why such businesses are considered utilities and subject to different rules.

      It would be more accurate to consider Microsoft Windows a utility. An even better analogy would be the Interstate Highway System. Everybody depends on it, even though there are alternatives, even private roads. Windows should certainly be regulated, at least to the extent of requiring the source code to be released. That should be true of any software company, of course - a general right of long term public oversight over business can be asserted as arising under the 9th and 10th Amendments, much like the right to oversight over government (the two are even connected). We could give them, say, ten years to make a profit before requiring release, of course.

      This would be entirely in the traditions of capitalism, of course. Adam Smith, in the his book on capitalism The Wealth of Nations, pointed out the need for public oversight and regulations - and that was in 1776! Software businesses are in no sense special, in fact there's all kinds of bad things that could be in their code that would be a matter of public concern.

      Monitoring Google would necessarily follow from that logic: like any business it should be subject to public oversight and regulation over the long term.

  9. Why 1956? by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    Ma Bell got broken up as a big bad monopoly in the early 1980's. If Google is being compared to Ma Bell in 1956, I guess it'll be a while before Google gets broken up as well.

    1. Re:Why 1956? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      1956 was a year of change for Bell too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  10. Only if you don't know words by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Natural Monopoly is a term for when two equal-sized companies doing the same thing would have near double the cost of a single company doing the same thing, and costs drop as market share increases. A Telephone company is a natural monopoly because if every person was a customer of ATT and Verizon both, then both companies would roll out infrastructure to all of the customers, duplicating costs. If ATT had 100% of the people as a customer, then Verizon would have an insane incremental cost for the first customer.

    Also, in the Telephone example, but not explicitly required for a natural monopoly (because government regulations usually prevent it), is that network effects make the company with more people stronger. Telephone companies predate exchanges. So if you were on ATT, you couldn't call someone on Verizon. So if everyone you knew was on ATT, the value to you for a Verizon connection that wouldn't let you call anyone you know, would be worthless. And would cost Verizon more than an ATT connection would.

    So the market would naturally drift to a monopoly.

    Google can have a startup take over tomorrow. They aren't doing anything in search that some guy in a garage can't do. They scrape sites, give results.

    Google is more a benevolent abusive monopoly. But because that doesn't exist, it sounds more like people are abusing well-defined words, rather than using the right words. Google's browser feeds their search results. Google's ads feed and are fed by browser and search results. That's not a "natural monopoly", that's an abusive monopoly. That they don't "require" people use their services, like MS/IE, but people still choose to do it, because they are the only option. That warrants a new term, I dub it "benevolent abusive monopoly".

    1. Re:Only if you don't know words by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Google can have a startup take over tomorrow. They aren't doing anything in search that some guy in a garage can't do.

      Exactly ... except the garage would need to be a few million square meters, and the guy would need ten billion dollars to pay for all the servers to hold the caches and indexes. But other than that, sure, a guy in a garage could easily do it.

    2. Re:Only if you don't know words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funding can be had with an IPO. What you need first is a search that beats Google's. Nobody has done that yet, including the various companies that have plowed lots of money into it.

    3. Re:Only if you don't know words by MatthiasF · · Score: 2

      You are correct in your definition of a natural monopoly but you are not correct in it's application to Google.

      Most people do not know that the majority of Google's web page sorting/filtering is done by the very people doing the searches. Every time someone goes to page two, page three, etc., and clicks one of those links it will be sorted higher in the future for others searching. The users themselves are generating the processes and doing most of the work that makes Google dominant. If a large shift of users went to another search engine employing similar processes, then Google's search results would degrade.

      Therefore, if all search engines use a similar system, then it is a natural monopoly because the more users working to sort results the better the results are for the remainder of the users on that search site.

    4. Re:Only if you don't know words by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You could say the same about Yahoo when Google started, yet a couple yahoos in a garage managed to out-Yahoo Yahoo.

      Reality proves you wrong, yet again. Doesn't that ever get tiring?

    5. Re:Only if you don't know words by swillden · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Google can have a startup take over tomorrow. They aren't doing anything in search that some guy in a garage can't do.

      Exactly ... except the garage would need to be a few million square meters, and the guy would need ten billion dollars to pay for all the servers to hold the caches and indexes. But other than that, sure, a guy in a garage could easily do it.

      Not really. You can scrape the whole web and index it on a few beefy machines and a few terabytes of disk. What requires the massive infrastructure is answering millions of queries per second from that index.

      You could build a search engine in your garage, and if you came up with algorithms that beat Google's by a significant margin you could easily find the funding to grow your infrastructure to keep up with your user base -- or you could go to one of the other giants who already has the necessary infrastructure and sell to them. Amazon's infrastructure plus a search algorithm that is sufficiently better than Google's would be a Google killer, no question about it. But you could also get the funding to grow your own.

      (Disclosure: I work for Google, though not on search.)

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    6. Re:Only if you don't know words by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      You could say the same about Yahoo when Google started

      When Google started, 16 million people were online. Today 3.6B are. That is 200 times as many. Also, Yahoo paid very little attention to search, and devoted almost no resources to it. The thinking at the time was that search was a commodity service and the real money was in being a "portal" like AOL.

    7. Re: Only if you don't know words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea because search then and now are totally on the same level. You are a jackass and if you can't see why your statement is absurd I don't know what else to tell you.

    8. Re:Only if you don't know words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Google can have a startup take over tomorrow. They aren't doing anything in search that some guy in a garage can't do. They scrape sites, give results.

      (Fascinating. You think the business is search.)

      Natural Monopoly is a term for when two equal-sized companies doing the same thing would have near double the cost of a single company doing the same thing, and costs drop as market share increases.

      And this is, in fact, what is being discussed. Let's talk about the actual business, and how it works.

      The business is advertising. Yes, anyone can sell ads. But Google and Facebook ads are special, and they're a bit different than the ads that came before them: they have persuaded webmasters to put extra bloat on their sites (Google Analytics javascript, Facebook "like" buttons, etc) where today's shitty browsers, unless you fix them with extensions, tend to automatically fetch (and execute, in the case of javascript) stuff from another server.

      This is how Google and Facebook are watching you. This is how Google and Facebook are profiling you, even if you don't ever actually explicitly tell your browser to visit their site. This is how Google and Facebook ads have more value than a competitor's ad would. You visited a midget porn site, you allowed your browser to load stuff from Google and Facebook referred by that site, so you're believed to be in the market for midget porn. I want you to see my midget porn ad, not some random person who probably doesn't have that fetish. Anyone can delivert 10000 midget porn impressions, but can just anyone deliver 10000 midget porn impressions to midget porn enthusiasts?

      It's brilliant (hey, I can say that, just like I think the people in the Manhattan Project were brilliant, ok?) and nothing like this was happening 20 years ago.

      But anyone could do that. Just find the carrot to persuade webmasters to add your bloat to their pages.

      Fine, but while this page bloat isn't quite as limited as utility poles, adding more and more is a slightly bad thing. The more of that shit I have on my web page, the less good my web page is. The more companies' crap there is (Google, Facebook, Comscore, Quantcast) the more network connections the client machines are making, the bigger the page is, the angrier the user, the more alerts their "who all is tracking me?" extension is showing them, and the more goodwill it costs me. We can totally argue about the magnitude of this (and really, you might convince me it's so damn tiny) but it's still something.

      The fewer trackers, the better.

      It's not as clear cut as your usual natural monopoly, but all the pieces are objectively here. We're just haggling over how big/important they are.

    9. Re:Only if you don't know words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Funding can be had with an IPO

      That's not how a startup works. You dont make a company and then IPO for money.

    10. Re:Only if you don't know words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, Google gets the Cream - placed advertisements with near tax free revenue.

      The next battleground will be phone/voice ordering. Amazon bypasses Google and
      wantabes,

      The problem is the search (doable) (Tracking - not so easy) and the sales (impossible). Yahoo and Bing are struggling. Economics says the two biggest players will lead the pack - ie Coke, Pepsi, and the rest/crumbs.

      I would call it a near monopoly. Microsoft has solved this problem by recording what to use your credit card online to snare purchase likes. Now if Google VPN's and antikeystroke stealing is enforced - they win again.

    11. Re:Only if you don't know words by swillden · · Score: 1

      I think you meant to reply to a different post. My comments had nothing to do with monopoly questions, advertising, etc. All I said was that you could build a Google search replacement in your garage, and grow it into a Google search-beating company.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    12. Re:Only if you don't know words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do work for Google, on search, and one of our USPs towards our users is that our index is bigger and fresher. The most common complaint about other search engines is that pages simply aren't in the index, or that the pages have changed so much between crawling and search that the page no longer contains the keywords entered. Our competitors obviously try to work as hard as they can, but they still cannot manage it and they're big companies. An individual or a start-up doesn't stand a chance. Oh, and our competitors scrape our search results, guess why.
      But the end user isn't really our customer. Our USP towards our customers is that we pretty much dominate the ad market in pretty much all respects, like eyeballs, page-to-page correlation, search history relevant ad display, you name it. Other ad companies would have to compensate for that by asking really low prices and that would make it very hard to run a profitable operation, excepting maybe niche markets.

    13. Re:Only if you don't know words by swillden · · Score: 1

      I do work for Google, on search

      I'm not sure I believe you. There are several things in your post that a person in your claimed position wouldn't say.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    14. Re:Only if you don't know words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google's success has nothing to do with algorithms, but with click data. Oh, and they got that by paying for market share, by forcing their shitty toolbars everywhere, and paying companies to default to google search. Its probably a good thing you don't work in search since you seem unaware of these things.

  11. Where is the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The reason nobody competes with Google in search is because they have so many hours into search - and it works really well. If Bing worked even close to as well as Google, more people would use it. Google is able to find what many people are looking for.

    As for the "creative class" being ravaged by the digital platforms; the author does not know what they are talking about. Authors today can see 60% or more of the revenue from the sale of their books. When we were working with authors in the 90s, they were seeing royalties on book sales somewhere between $0.05 and $0.25 per copy sold.

    1. Re:Where is the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Bing worked even close to as well as Google, more people would use it.

      I haven't used Bing since it was fairly new, but I remember it being slow and JavaScript-heavy. That's why I stopped using it, not the search results.

  12. Re: This is an ad for a book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yep. Pure BS.

    Is google raising rates on your bandwidth?

  13. Not following this logic by h4ck7h3p14n37 · · Score: 2

    As you point out yourself in the book, natural monopoly can also be a positive thing. For instance, in the cases of the telephone and the telegraph. What is the difference between those natural monopolies and digital platforms?

    That was kind of a tragedy of the commons, with competing inoperable telephone networks. It didn’t make sense. Now we’re just in a situation where the amount of capital that would be needed to start a new Google competitor would be so huge or so onerous in terms of competition that it would be very hard to raise that capital. So we’re just dealing with the fact that it’s a de-facto monopoly. Even Microsoft couldn’t get past a 5 percent global market share.

    I'm not following this argument. How does being large and popular equate to being a monopoly? Ma Bell had to run wires everywhere, Google just uses the existing infrastructure. No one's forcing you to use Google and there are plenty of other search engines.

    You also don't need a lot of capital to compete with Google if you want to build your own search engine. Cloud servers are damn cheap these days compared to putting something in a colocation facility like you used to have to do. If you're doing something niche like shodan.io it makes complete sense to go ahead and build your own.

    1. Re:Not following this logic by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Search results and political parties can have issues given the party political patronage in the USA.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  14. Stop advertising by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    That will teach Google a lesson, we advertisers can boycott and cease online advertising. Sure most of us will go out of business, but I suppose the ones that can't offer customers quality products and services will be the first to collapse in a zero advertisement economy.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    1. Re:Stop advertising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you say that like it's a bad thing

    2. Re:Stop advertising by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Indeed, I bet if there were no advertisements that people would still buy things.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  15. Yeah, right, Google is like Ma Bell by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because it costs me a fortune to use Google and i have to lease a big black Google machine from the company to do it.

    1. Re:Yeah, right, Google is like Ma Bell by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 2

      You forget that you are not the customer. You are the product. Google's customers are its advertisers and the Web sites that host its advertisements, and those people do indeed get jerked around by Google.

    2. Re:Yeah, right, Google is like Ma Bell by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      What this "you are the product" mantra means is that I'm trading off the privacy of my searches in return for free use of the software and the very fancy infrastructure it runs on. You may feel threatened somehow to see ads popping up that refer to products you have searched for in the past, but so far as I'm concerned I don't see a problem.

    3. Re:Yeah, right, Google is like Ma Bell by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 1

      The point was not about privacy. The point was about the nature of a monopoly. A monopoly is a company that so dominates an industry that customers have no real choice about where to go. Since this is true for Web advertisers in every practical way, Google is indeed a monopoly. The fact that you can switch to another search provider doesn't change that...they also send you to pages where Google serves ads.

    4. Re:Yeah, right, Google is like Ma Bell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >The fact that you can switch to another search provider doesn't change that

      It does. The advertising clients are forced to use Google because most people wouldn't even want to use other search engines. So Bell had all the infrastructure, Google basically owns all search users. Except Bell owned the infrastructure, and Google keeps winning over its users. Big difference.

      I know how hard Google jerks their customers, but TFA is bullshit. Its view of classical economics assumes everything, everyone is the same, there's no true scarcity of talent, no technological barrier that can't be overcome, and building a company from the ground up is exactly equal to putting in a lot of money. Well, what's wrong is his spherical cow model, not Google's monopoly.

    5. Re:Yeah, right, Google is like Ma Bell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google keeps winning the users, but I'm not sure if many people know how to change search engine in Google Chrome. The damn thing even autocomplete search terms in the URL bar as far as I remember.
      One problem might be the next best known search engines are Bing and Yahoo. Thus, I can understand that from the subset of people who know there are search engines other that Google, most don't want to use these and thus keep using Google.

      There is a slimy thing though, the Google search bar imprinted in many Android home screens.
      I looked up how to remove it :
      http://trendblog.net/remove-go...
      This is completely ridiculous. It might be a bit worse than Microsoft antics.
      They HAVE a monopoly on mobile smart phones.

    6. Re:Yeah, right, Google is like Ma Bell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, so why should I care that Google has a so called "monopoly" on Internet advertising? If I'm not even a customer, it shouldn't have any effect on me.

  16. The difference... by RyanFenton · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The difference: You don't subscribe to google. You don't pay for Google. Google shows you ads (if you aren't using tools to avoid them) to make their money, they don't get the bulk of their income from folks paying for access to services, but by advertising through those services.

    Google is not a natural monopoly in the classic sense - they are widely popular, but they don't exist as an unavoidable gateway to essential services like the phone companies in the previous century.

    Instead, they provide optional services through a public network, and tend to be less objectionable than the alternatives, so people use them.

    I'm personally often against a LOT of the actions of corporations in the world, and even against Google's decisions sometimes - but they don't even approach Ma Bell in the terms presented here.

    Ryan Fenton

  17. Not a Monopoly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I highly disagree. You think it is a monopoly because that is what everyone uses, but everyone uses it because they set a standard in usability and customer satisfaction and doing so much more for the customer than any other company they compete with, at no real extra cost. Noone else delivers the same quality of service that Google does, and everyone complains it isn't fair.

    Google entered when there were so many MORE search engines. Most of those died years ago. I used dogpile because it coordinated the best results. Then google came along and did one better. Now google is the top of the game, not by cheating the system or forcing people to use their product.

    Reliability, high quality, and awesome features/functionality. That brings the customers who stay.

  18. Minor differences by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
    The switching cost from Bell telephones was nearly infinity. No one can switch to a competing no matter what they do.

    Switching away from google requires just setting a different default search engine in your browser that would cost you a grand sum of zero dollars and zero cents.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Minor differences by FeelGood314 · · Score: 1

      You aren't google's customer the advertiser is. If you use Bing the adds on the web pages you visit will still be provided by Google. Search, email, apps and everything else Google gives away for free are just the moat protecting the castle. Adwords is the 650B USD monster castle. It blocks out the sun light and starves anything that tries to grow in it's shadow.

    2. Re:Minor differences by jonsmirl · · Score: 1

      Facebook isn't doing so bad growing in the shade.

    3. Re:Minor differences by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously, we're talking about a service that connects advertisers with eyeballs. The technology to do that isn't rocket science, and if you're good at it at all the infrastructure to do it can come at mere cents or tenths of cents per advertisement. A 'natural monopoly' has to have some kind of 'huge barrier to entry', it can't be just money. MS, Apple, FB etc. have more than enough money to compete in this space.

      If Google is winning in this space even by stupid high % that's NOT a 'natural monopoly' its because they are doing something better NOT because others can't do the same. You or I may not be able to compete but that is NOT the definition of a 'natural monopoly'. I can't start a car company either, doesn't meant that GM doesn't have competition.

  19. Yeah, no by Snotnose · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I use duck duck go as my daily search engine. I use gmail and android but both could easily be switched out. Facebook? Never had an account, never logged on.

    In the past there was no way to avoid the Bell System if you wanted a telephone, and you had to have a telephone.

    1. Re:Yeah, no by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 2

      You are not the customer, you are the product. Even if you use Duck Duck Go, you are viewing Google ads.every time you visit a Web site. And once there, Google does indeed track you.

    2. Re:Yeah, no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Was this supposed to be relevant to the parent in any way?

    3. Re:Yeah, no by damaki · · Score: 1

      I did switch from google services (everything but android), and I can tell you one thing: it is not trivial. To transfer your emails, you will have to accept some loss, because their IMAP implementation has limitations. Some email encoding will get messed up. You will lose your pretty automated sorting thingy. It is vendor lock-in, but a modern one, with the illusion that it is simple to quit it, 'cause they are not evil.
      For calendar, it was about the same, I lost some stuff and had to live with it.
      For contacts, I lost nothing but I had to manually edit contacts.
      In a nutshell, migrating away from google services (not search, the others) takes time, takes effort, dedication and money. Do not lie to yourself and imagine that it is fast and easy.

      Freedom has a cost.

      --
      Stupidity is the root of all evil.
    4. Re:Yeah, no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I use duckduckgo and I block ads. Thus I'm only tracked by Google's analytics, Google's web fonts, Google's javascript library CDN. All three are to be found in TFA's html code!

      There is too much Google in articles about Google's monopoly for my liking :)

      Not in TFA there's youtube, embedded youtube, and whatever I might be not aware of.

  20. classical economics meet network effect by presidenteloco · · Score: 1

    or more precisely "classical economics meet complexity credit" - where "complexity credit" is an asset account meant to quantify the opposite of "technical debt".

    The idea is, company A has built a massively complex information infrastructure, with good design and architecture which enables scaling and adaptation/innovation. That has a kind of a compound-interest-accumulating piling of capability value upon capability value.

    Consequently, they can efficiently build and rapidly improve an interworking set of best-in-class applications, providing value for end users that companies that cannot leverage the layers of google tech below cannot match, and innovating those valuable tools faster and better than other companies.

    This is just a few good ideas and great execution. So that leads to market dominance based on merit and customers voting with their feet / touchpads.

    How is this kind of production of a monopoly through merit in an open playing field meritocracy a bad thing?
    If it is a bad thing, what should be done about it that wouldn't cripple the applications/services that their customers apparently want and enjoy?

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
  21. Re: This is an ad for a book by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1, Insightful

    More importantly what are the natural barriers to entry that google presides over?

    Last mile? No.
    National interconnect? No.
    Vertical or horizontal ownership of key resources? No.
    Insidious patent, copyright, license or arbitrary government backed anti-competitive government sponsored meddling? No more than everyone else.

    In fact how many search engines where there before google? Remember all the add ridden, crap infested search engines of the late 90s?

    Google has a good product we voluntarily want. It also has a lot of data gained from its masses of users that help it provide relevant searches, but that it has to balance against various sponsorships and clickbait crap. It has a good S:N versus competitors like Bing, which is mostly crap most of the time.

  22. Historical revisionism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only bad monopolies are ones created by government. Although Google had very frequent and very suspicious heavy US government involvement at the highest levels in the Obama administration that did not result in government regulation designed to benefit Google only (most likely the meetings were about how Google could help enable better spying on the whole world).

    That said natural monopolies in a relatively free market are always great for the consumer and when they quite becoming great for the consumer competitors rise to the challenge to end the natural monopoly.

    Historical revisionists like to point out the breaking up of Standard Oil as a good thing. It wasn't for the consumer. Consumer prices skyrocketed after it was busted up because it could no longer deliver products at very low prices due to the fact that they had owned the entire line of production and we're able to keep prices very low due to the extent they went into keeping the while production process as efficient as possible.

    Monopolies are two things:

    Natural ones are a fake boogey man government props up to accrue power and money to themselves (note how Microsoft learned it had to regularly legally bribe U.S. Senators/Representatives/officials when the Clinton Administration went after them because the Democrats hadn't gotten enough green from them).

    Government-created monopolies created by regulation and licensing are just another scheme for government officials to get their legal and not so legal bribes. I'm serious. Remove the ability for government officials to ever make money from the private sector for the rest of their lives and suddenly all kinds of top level people would immediately quit because their legal/illegal extra money avenues would dry up and the thousands of ridiculous regulations meant to benefit different bribers would simply go away.

  23. Natural? by mbone · · Score: 1

    I don't think Mr. Taplin knows what a natural monopoly is.

    Note: It is not a market share gained through the neglect of anti-trust.

  24. 35% net margin attracting new capital? No. by ffkom · · Score: 1

    Whoever wrote that "if there's a business in which there are 35 percent net margins, that would attract a huge amount of new capital" must have never worked for any larger global corporation.
    I have been working for parts of such corporations that were sold off because we only had a margin < 50%.
    Never underestimate the greed ruling investors.

    1. Re:35% net margin attracting new capital? No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If those parts were sold, clearly others had interest in buying those. Although they may have other reasons than the margins.

  25. No way except... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... to build a better mouse trap.

  26. what a bunch of garbage by ooloorie · · Score: 1

    As Taplin observes, the fact that more and more Americans receive their news, as well as music and other forms of entertainment, from a small group of companies poses a real threat to democracy.

    In fact, the exact opposite is true: there has been a massive increase in free news sites, and people are picking those up. Companies like Google and Facebook (so far) haven't been gatekeepers. Taplin's CV reads like a who's-who of big, evil old media and financial corporations. What actually bothers him is that their monopolies are being eroded.

    And what takes the cake is that Taplin blames "antidemocratic, monopoly-oriented, radical libertarianism values of the titans of technology". Most Silicon Valley tech CEOs are in bed with the Democrats and supported Obama and Hillary. Anybody who espouses libertarian values in the Valley has the Silicon Valley techie mobs and the federal government come down on them like a ton of bricks; just look at what happened to Thiel.

    Taplin argues not for democracy, but for the old, crony-capitalist system that made him rich and powerful, nothing more.

    1. Re:what a bunch of garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The Democrats" are righwing. Obama was to the right of Ronnie Reagan.

      Remember the shift of the overton window next time.

    2. Re:what a bunch of garbage by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      Thiel's problem is that he contributed a large amount of money to the government's ability to pick winners and losers, which doesn't sound libertarian to me.

      I'm fine with getting the government out of the marriage business, and I suspect most libertarians would agree with me there. There do need to be ways to establish legal family relationships (adoption is another one), but there's no reason that can't be separate from marriage. If the government is in the marriage business, the government needs to stop picking exactly who can get married to whom.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    3. Re:what a bunch of garbage by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      Thiel's problem is that he contributed a large amount of money to the government's ability to pick winners and losers, which doesn't sound libertarian to me.

      Can you turn that into a coherent sentence and argument?

  27. Then don't use google by p51d007 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I haven't, for years... I use duck duck go. works for me.

    1. Re:Then don't use google by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 2

      Google doesn't need you to use their search engine. Every time you click a link on a search result, you are viewing ads served by Google. And through those ads, they track your movements through the Web. And THAT is Google's real product.

    2. Re:Then don't use google by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google doesn't need you to view their ads to track you.

  28. Wrong metric by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article claims the market is "search advertising". Unfortunately, the "search" comes before the ads. Google does search better than the competition (of which there are multiple options), so they get the lions share of the profits. That's called "healthy competition". While they may dominate search, they are NOT a monopoly.

  29. Google is a monopolist in selling Ads by FeelGood314 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You are not Google's Customer! The advertisers are. From the advertisers perspective Google is a monopolist. Excluding apps made by Facebook, adwords is the only place I can reasonably advertising on the general web. Yes there are other companies but the advertising industry favors one monopolist. If I create a website I will sign up with Google to get ads for my site because they are the biggest and it's just not worth my time using someone else. Since most websites only get ads from Google then advertisers only use Google.

    1. Re:Google is a monopolist in selling Ads by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

      Don't confuse something being the best option (currently winning the competition) vs. being the only option (monopoly).

      If Google changed tomorrow so that they took 99% of the ad revenue and sites got 1% from their ad network, then within a week 99% of their site space inventory would dry up, because everyone with a site would switch to another ad network that paid more.

      Google currently has a more efficient setup that provides what sites and advertisers want better (in general) than their competitors. So they're currently winning. If that changed, they'd be losing. People get confused by the fact that it's so easy on the internet to switch to different options, so the best option over time tends to get more and more market share until it appears they are dominant... but the reality is that as soon as that changes, people can just as easily switch to their suddenly better competition.

      See for example, Myspace, or Yahoo, etc...

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    2. Re:Google is a monopolist in selling Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then technically Bell didn't have a monopoly either, because you could still walk up to people's houses and knock on their door.

    3. Re:Google is a monopolist in selling Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be deliberately stupid. Bell in fact didn't have a monopoly on local service, it was on long distance service because of their patent rights protecting them from any competition for decades.

  30. Re: This is an ad for a book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    More importantly what are the natural barriers to entry that google presides over?

    You answer your own question but can't spot why so let me explain. Google has a critical mass of users that provide DATA on the best search results. This makes a perfect catch22 for any competitor, to get better search results they need more users than google but they can't get more users UNTIL AFTER their search results are better.

  31. Talent hunters by Bengie · · Score: 1

    Classic economics would say that if there's a business in which there are 35 percent net margins, that would attract a huge amount of new capital to capture some of that, and none of that has happened.

    Sounds like someone found out what talented individuals can bring to the table. The competition cannot compete by reducing costs, they must become technologically on par or superior to compete. Google is not perfect, but they focus more on quality than nearly anyone else. Never give up quality for speed. When you focus on quality, you get speed for free.

    Like I said, they're not perfect, they're just much better than the alternatives, and in many cases, quite good.

  32. This is the biggest BS that we keep hearing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    In fact, it's the very opposite: Edge starts automatically, is configured to search with Bing by default and they even have the nerve to say one won't be able to choose Google in a future Windows version.

    Besides, the competition is there. Why does not Bing catch on? Because M$ is monopolistic and we're fed up with it. Punishments by the EU didn't cure it, punishment by the USA didn't cure it, it seems it's in their DNA.

    Complaining about Google is like complaining about a weather forecasting site. If they nail it, you come back because it works. Of course, the competition want to get business without the need for accurate forecasts (because that's hard), and thus we have to endure the complaining of the incompetents.

    Just do a good job and sell it for a reasonable price; don't resort to anticompetitive tricks because people will remember and not use your products anymore (do you hear, M$?)

    You think that Google will be eternally the most successful? Wait a little bit, China(*) is coming. Oh, did you think they were not into trying to make money with search? Think again.

    (*) Just an example. Russia, the EU or even UK are posed to try their hand at it.

  33. meh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I use duckduckgo

  34. A problem not mentioned yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And there is the problem that even if a group did come up with a system that looked like it might be a viable rival/threat to Google,what would happen..
    Their backers would have the normal lack of patience and would either sell out straight to alphabet/Google or a huge ipo which alphabet/Google would then take a few years getting control of enough stock/shares that they could take control.
    Unless some already madly rich Corp/individual was in charge,it wouldn't take long for a/g to gain control..
    How do we know that there have been several possible competitive systems thought up but then have taken the easy option of selling out to a/g ?
    It seems to be an easy way to get lots of cash today,come up with an idea that might possibly threaten one of the big boys and just sell out to them,much easier than all that work/money to actually turn it into a real threat in ten years time..
    Regulation only work if regulators are honest,intelligent,un- corruptible and working in a system/gov that's allows them to do their job properly..
    The UK had some very strict rules/laws before the 08 crash governing banking etc,but regulators WORKING staff seems to have been three young students in an office as far from London as possible,so regulation was never going to work..
    I loathe Google,but there is realy no VIABLE alternative,as others pointed out,its a catch22 situation..

  35. Need a new search engine by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    One that just searches. Not history with select US political parties. No US SJW issues. Just search the net and present the results.
    Hardware is cheap. Networking is low cost. The experts with the maths and code skills can be found at a few good universities around the world.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  36. Google's monopoly is a paradox, NOT a natural by shanen · · Score: 1

    Good comment and deserved the insightful mod, though I don't fully agree with your definitions. Also, I was once again disappointed by the lack of funny-moderated comments. Where have all the wits gone?

    I'd prefer to approach it from the perspective of a counterexample. What if the google was cut into competing pieces. Each piece would start with a copy of the data and source code and an equal share of the physical resources. Would one of the pieces naturally grow to the point of destroying all others, or could they continue competing indefinitely? (Old example involves Microsoft. Imagine three baby Microsofts that each started with the source code.)

    I'm not sure how it would work in the case of the google, but there is obviously a paradox here. Google is profiting by helping other companies compete against each other. It might work, but only if the google was a fair and impartial arbitrator. If you prefer, "not evil".

    The paradox seems unavoidable because the google is a PLAYER, not just an neutral party. The google is trying to extract as much money as possible from the system. Rather than wanting each of us to get the best possible information about what we want to buy, google's thumb is on the scale. "Which companies will pay the highest percentage to the google?" becomes part of the equation and if you could see the secrets of PageRank I'm certain that you would find that code somewhere in there. Ties have to be broken, and ceteris paribus the google corporation obviously wants to break the ties in its OWN favor. (Of course it's even worse in cases where the google is actually selling one of the products or services. Anyone still think they can offer a competing map service against Google Maps?)

    Solution? Use tax policy to INCREASE FREEDOM, not to make the rich richer. There should be a progressive corporate tax based on market share. As you eliminate your competitors, your taxes rise, and then you get a big tax bonus if you cut your company into competing pieces. SINCERELY competing pieces, not just such scams as dividing up the territory.

    The extra tax revenue from these market share taxes should be tapped to support the government service of regulating the dominant company (especially in cases where the dominator really has a natural monopoly) and researching ways to break any natural monopolies (especially with new technologies that monopolists naturally want to resist).

    --
    Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
    1. Re:Google's monopoly is a paradox, NOT a natural by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Where have all the wits gone?

      +7 funny, -2 overrated = +5 comment, -2 karma. Funny is punished. Also the funny leave or get cynical. So you are left with some constructive comments, but fewer "entertaining" ones.

      I'd prefer to approach it from the perspective of a counterexample. What if the google was cut into competing pieces.

      I'd not do that. Seems like a bad idea. Instead, require FRAND. Adwords has an API interface, but Google doesn't allow 3rd party ads.If Google started a separate Ad service that was non-preferential (or, more likely was preferential, but openly so, such that any ad service that was appropriately configured could meet or beat Google Ads for Google ad space), then there'd be no "natural monopoly". Similar functions could be FRANDed into competition as well.

    2. Re:Google's monopoly is a paradox, NOT a natural by shanen · · Score: 1

      Hmm... Would it have helped if I had said "hypothetical counterexample"? Or I should have defined it in functional terms?

      Anyway, I think the foundations of my analysis on (not wasting) time and (increasing) freedom are sound. Your comfortable usage of FRAND (which I had to look up) makes me think you are approaching it from a legal perspective. My problem there is that the current legal system has basically become highly corrupted by the most cheaply bribed politicians writing the rules of the game (business laws) in favor of the corporate cancer business model. Rather than working for such complicated objectives as our Constitutional rights and increased personal freedom, they are working for the simple objectives of concentrating more money into the hands of fewer and fewer people.

      --
      Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
  37. Google Simply better by abcbuhl · · Score: 1

    As a lot of people have pointed out, Google does not have a monopoly. They have a huge chunk of the market, especially in Europe where it's up to 90 percent, and bing is more or less non-existent. I could choose Bing or other search engines in a matter of seconds if I want to, but I simply doesn't, because they are sub par search engines. They don't provide the same value for me. http://www.market-inspector.co...

  38. Data is the real currency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ads are just a way of monetising data, data is the real currency. Users do not have a say in what the gathered data is used for, or can't opt out most of the gathering mechanisms. Sure, users can access some of the data and list the apps that access it, but the recorded details and what they are/will be used for are kept mostly secret. In fact, when using Google search, users are implicitly agreeing to pay for the service by providing personal data. This falls out of data protection legislation, which focus on individual data and tries to prevent identifying individuals from data. However, when it comes to identifying chunks of population from data analysis, and predict their behaviour with accuracy, we are in a regulatory no man's land. Understanding how to measure data-as-currency and the power it brings should be at the heart of this debate.

  39. The barrier to entry is vastly lower, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At least until NN is repealed, at which point you need to be a certain minimum size of cash reserve/investment to pay off for proper access to the internet.

    But you don't need government grant to people's property nor to dig up roads and the countryside to lay down your own internet lines.

    So it's a hell of a lot like not the Ma Bell situation.

    Yahoo was still viable until they voted to get rid of the same CEO they had who wanted the company to remain real and live to generate money for years by people who wanted to cash in on the sale to Microsoft where it would generate a wave of cash then disappear.

    MS aren't because they're trying too hard to force people to use it. Always makes people nervous when you're TOO eager to sell your "free" service. It's pretty clear there are strings attached.

  40. That is true, but only part of the truth. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A monopoly requires the ability to move the market at your sole discretion with a high chance of success. So it doesn't matter if there are 30 other companies, or if you're a minority. If you can make the market change to fit your needs instead of fitting yourself to the needs of the market, you have a monopoly.

    And Google can't do that.

  41. You're the product, not the customer by lucifer_666 · · Score: 1

    It's kind of strange to see this discussion about Google being a monopoly, and the comparison to Bell. To me, they are completely opposite. How much do you pay to search on Google? Nothing, you're not a customer, you have no business relationship with them. Bell was a monopoly because it monopolised the market, ie. the group of customers who paid for their product. How is that anything like Google, who gives you search for free?

    Rather, Google's customers are their advertisers. Do they monopolise the advertising market? No, not by any stretch. How about online advertising? I don't think so. How about advertising on Google? Well yes, they do have exclusive rights to sell that, but were Yellow Pages a monopolist because they were the only ones who could sell advertising in their directory?

    Google do have a great search engine which 80% of the world uses. But since no one pays, the so called search market isn't a market at all.

    1. Re:You're the product, not the customer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was just a nuanced way of saying "I was against monopolies before I was for them."
      Progressive pretzel logic never fails to amaze me.

    2. Re:You're the product, not the customer by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      No, it's a way of saying "These two things are different", a concept that is apparently lost on the right wing. Unfortunately, the right-wing conflation of two things in order to do inept liberal-bating doesn't amaze me anymore.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    3. Re:You're the product, not the customer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well your an inept liberal then because you took the bait.

  42. I'll compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can always compete against youtube with my site http://meshpage.org/ .. Sadly there isn't any users in my site, but I'm sure everything will be ok. WIth google controlling the aspect whether my web site will be found from google seach, I'm sure I'll have blazing success. Especially if it gets any real users, I'm sure it'll be blocked in every possible way in popular search platforms.

  43. A communications guy thinks he know economics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Taplin's assertion of how "economics works" is wrong. A particular principle of economics asserts that attempting to compete with a company that has cash reserves allowing that company to undercut any competition to the point where any new entry would not be able to have a similar amount of capital will result in the decision to not enter into competition. It's really simple. If you see profit in a market but that market has a major player with enough of a war chest that they will bury you then the correct decision is to not enter that market. So Taplin's assertion is not only incorrect, it ignores an actual assertion of economics that applies to the real world situation of Google. Also simplistic amateur economic analysis almost always ignores the assumptions made to conclude things like "lots of profit will encourage competition." One thing that requires going beyond an average or lower layman's understanding of the bare rudiments of economics is analysis where technological differences are present between potential competitors. High profits happen all the time in various markets. Competitors do not come steaming in to those highly profitable situations for a variety of reasons. War chest is one Tech advantage is another. Google has both.

  44. Someone has to say it... by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

    No one in the thread has said this:

    Although I know that Google is not a monopoly, I am not interested in wasting my breath defining terms for you.

    Just click this link.

  45. Correction: by DiEx-15 · · Score: 1

    Google is as close to an apocalyptic AI as Skynet was in 1997.

  46. Re: This is an ad for a book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How would user data help them decide which results are the best?
    They don't know that the first three results I clicked on were crap, and the best one was actually on page 3.
    There's no way for me to tell them that, so it doesn't get any better.

  47. Sarcastic or clueless? Hard to tell. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I assume this is sarcastic. It comes off as clueless. Hard to tell those apart, but in this case, I think probably both.

    In any case, no information in the post.

    1. Re:Sarcastic or clueless? Hard to tell. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Original poster is clueless. Things change. Business come and go. The barrier to entry for a new search engine business is incredibly low. Google is a behemoth, not a monopoly.

    2. Re:Sarcastic or clueless? Hard to tell. by Maritz · · Score: 0

      I assume this is sarcastic.

      Got ourselves a sharp one here.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
  48. Baby Bells by XXongo · · Score: 2

    Not true, at all. The US was a hodgepodge of phone companies, state tariffs, interstate tariffs, intrastate tariffs, LATAs, and was owned by a lot of co-ops.

    Ah, youngsters. Don't remember the old days.

    No, you're talking about after the breakup of AT&T. Before the breakup, there was Ma Bell. There were a few places that still had other phone companies, but for the most part, it was the one giant monopoly, Ma Bell.

    Some still remain... use Cincinnati Bell as an example.

    That name, "Cincinnati Bell," should be a clue that this is a piece of one of the seven Regional Bell Operating Companies ("Baby Bells") that were formed as a result of the breakup of AT&T.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System
    http://www.techpolicydaily.com/communications/lessons-att-break-30-years-later/
    http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/20/technology/att-merger-history/

  49. Stretching the term 'Natural Monopoly' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, Google is a 'natural monopoly'? And what market are they supposed to be monopolizing? 'search advertising'...seriously? And what exactly keeps other 'big players' from competing in this space? Or 'small players' from competing in this space with innovative products? (a 'natural monopoly' is supposed to have 'high barriers to entry'). If people mostly use Google for search maybe that says something about the quality of the competitors especially those now long gone (Yahoo...staring right at you...).

    Besides which I've never actually seen anything resembling a 'natural monopoly' that wasn't created via 'regulatory capture'. Railroads, telephone networks, internet, cable TV etc., etc. are granted monopolies on the basis of the concept of a 'natural monopoly' existing to begin with, it is a case of the answering begging the question. The government has continuously and historically put their thumb on the scale to pick 'winners' and 'losers', and then unfortunately we need 'government' to fix it only to find they F it up some more.

  50. CRAP, Utter CRAP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought the idea that Google was a 'natural monopoly' was crap before reading the linked to article in the summary I'm more convinced then ever that it is. The article is essentially an interview with some guy who wrote a book because he has an axe to grind over his 'legendary drummer' buddy not making money from his music anymore and blaming it on Youtube. It then goes about proving the case with fallacious arguments and repeating statements that simply aren't true..e.g. it takes too much money to compete with Google in search...see MS and Bing....NO, it requires money (yes), skill/talent and NOT having a reputation for fucking your users every chance you get.

    O, and there's the pulling at the heart strings over the demise of the 'intrepid working class performer/artist/musician/writer' who shouldn't have to tour or actually do work rather than simply living off of...guess what..an ACTUAL 'government sponsored monopoly' in copyright because touring is so '17th century'...what a JOKE. If his legendary buddy had any idea of how to leverage the 'digital economy' he'd have put on the same concerts from his home, sold tickets for on-line access, maybe include some kind of autographed random give away (e.g. say old LPs/T-Shirts/whatever kitchy thing he wanted to that he signed) but only for those who paid for the access...Or just something else. Whining that he can't make enough money living off of 'royalties' from songs that might be 30 years old is just sour grapes. Hell, set up a 'Kickstarter' offering to just give away signed copies of shit, if the guys so legendary he could have made tonnes of money for basically doing nothing.

  51. Re: This is an ad for a book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Exactly. Not only is it 'pure BS', it is such BS that it leads one to wonder if his book & anything else he might be involved in (an article in the NY Times) isn't sponsored by the ACTUAL 'government sponsored monopolists' (e.g. the infrastructure companies who all have been granted monopolies and as such should be actually 'regulated'). Shit, the last question in the supposed 'interview' basically 'outs' the guy in so much as he's suggesting that Google 'be broken up'...seriously? How about we worry about the infrastructure companies who can raise their rates without any intervention from government or actual competition.

    Hell, I would not be surprised to find out that AT&T (or someone connected with them e.g. a 'consultant') paid this guy to write the book, got it published & is otherwise sponsoring his 'book tour'.

  52. FTFY by eric_harris_76 · · Score: 1

    AltaVista Is As Close To a Natural Monopoly As the Bell System Was In 1956

    FTFY.

    --
    There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
  53. Google? Really? by dddux · · Score: 1

    Well I use DuckDuckGo as my search engine and it's every bit as good as Google. There are many different search engines, actually. I don't know why people restrict themselves to just one.

    --
    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti