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EFF Sues FBI For Records About Paid Best Buy Geek Squad Informants (eff.org)

The Electronic Frontier Foundation is suing the FBI for records "about the extent to which it directs and trains Best Buy employees to conduct warrantless searches of people's devices." The lawsuit stems around an incident in 2011 where a gynecology doctor took his computer for repairs at Best Buy's Geek Squad. The repair technician was a paid FBI informant that found child pornography on the doctor's computer, ultimately resulting in the doctor being charged with possessing child pornography. From the EFF's report: A federal prosecution of a doctor in California revealed that the FBI has been working for several years to cultivate informants in Best Buy's national repair facility in Brooks, Kentucky, including reportedly paying eight Geek Squad employees as informants. According to court records in the prosecution of the doctor, Mark Rettenmaier, the scheme would work as follows: Customers with computer problems would take their devices to the Geek Squad for repair. Once Geek Squad employees had the devices, they would surreptitiously search the unallocated storage space on the devices for evidence of suspected child porn images and then report any hits to the FBI for criminal prosecution. Court records show that some Geek Squad employees received $500 or $1,000 payments from the FBI. At no point did the FBI get warrants based on probable cause before Geek Squad informants conducted these searches. Nor are these cases the result of Best Buy employees happening across potential illegal content on a device and alerting authorities. Rather, the FBI was apparently directing Geek Squad workers to conduct fishing expeditions on people's devices to find evidence of criminal activity. Prosecutors would later argue, as they did in Rettenmaier's case, that because private Geek Squad personnel conducted the searches, there was no Fourth Amendment violation. The judge in Rettenmaier's case appeared to agree with prosecutors, ruling earlier this month that because the doctor consented both orally and in writing to the Geek Squad's search of his device, their search did not amount to a Fourth Amendment violation. The court, however, threw out other evidence against Rettenmaier after ruling that FBI agents misstated key facts in the application for a warrant to search his home and smartphone. We disagree with the court's ruling that Rettenmaier consented to a de-facto government search of his devices when he sought Best Buy's help to repair his computer. But the court's ruling demonstrates that law enforcement agents are potentially exploiting legal ambiguity about when private searches become government action that appears intentionally designed to try to avoid the Fourth Amendment.

147 comments

  1. Covefe of bestbuy is SAD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's truly covefe

    1. Re:Covefe of bestbuy is SAD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Covefe is not a word. It should autocorrect to "covfefe" instead.

    2. Re:Covefe of bestbuy is SAD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Goddamn children. I don't like Trump but you fuckers are running around like little faggots saying that shit. Grow the fuck up.

    3. Re:Covefe of bestbuy is SAD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What else do you expect with such constant negative press covfefe?

    4. Re: Covefe of bestbuy is SAD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Covefe DEEZ NUTZ with ur mouth

    5. Re: Covefe of bestbuy is SAD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Covefe DEEZ NUTZ with ur mouth

      I think we should both take off our pants, stroke our cocks until they get nice and HARD and then do some PENIS FENCING!!

    6. Re:Covefe of bestbuy is SAD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And best (worst?) of all, they are playing right into Trump's tiny tiny hands. There are a finite number of seconds in a day, and all the seconds they spend on covfefe are fewer seconds spent on things that actually matter. Like Trump pulling out of the Paris climate thing.

  2. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Think! Yes, what makes you people think this has any effect on anything?!

  3. The judge should have thrown out evidence... by CraigCruden · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Since this was an active program by the FBI to recruit and pay on piecework basis for material found that was illegal, the Best Buy workers were no longer working for Best Buy with regards to this action and were effectively working for the FBI in a sort of deputized role. As such the terms of conditions by Best Buy should not apply, and since they are effectively contract workers for the FBI -- they should have required warrants. Thus the evidence should be thrown out.

    1. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Make me think back to
      "FBI asks computer shops to help fight cybercrime" (February 5, 2004)
      "... given a list of local businesses ... with the idea of establishing a working relationship with all of them."
      http://the.honoluluadvertiser....

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    2. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by BitterOak · · Score: 1

      Okay, I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here, but why should they need a warrant even if they were effectively working for the FBI? The customer voluntarily brought his computer to Best Buy and the computer was in their custody at the time of the search. There was no entry into the customer's home: Best Buy was in possession of the computer at the time of the search.

      --
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    3. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by CaptainDork · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Once Geek Squad employees had the devices, they would surreptitiously search the unallocated storage space ...

      So you take your car in for a regular tune-up and the techs search the trunk?

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    4. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by quantaman · · Score: 1

      Since this was an active program by the FBI to recruit and pay on piecework basis for material found that was illegal, the Best Buy workers were no longer working for Best Buy with regards to this action and were effectively working for the FBI in a sort of deputized role. As such the terms of conditions by Best Buy should not apply, and since they are effectively contract workers for the FBI -- they should have required warrants. Thus the evidence should be thrown out.

      Yeah, I'm kinda shocked the judge (seemingly) allowed this though I can see the reasoning they probably used.

      Basically the Best Buy employees would be acting as deputies if they were doing something they wouldn't normally do in the course of their job. For instance, if you were paying for them to repair your computer at your house, and they used the opportunity to snoop through your drawers and report that to the FBI. Then that would be a 4th amendment violation.

      But poking around a hard drive is a legitimate part of fixing a computer, and if they inform on criminal activity they've observed as part of their normal activities they're informants.

      This seems to be part of the argument that was going on in the trial:

      But Carney said the image found in Kentucky was not pornographic, that the FBI did not disclose that image was found in “unallocated space” on Rettenmaier’s hard drive, and that the FBI misstated how many times they searched the hard drive before applying for a warrant

      [...]

      Riddet argued that the fact that Geek Squad technicians were exploring Rettenmaier’s “unallocated space” was evidence they were going beyond standard data recovery in an attempt to assist the FBI. Carney rejected that argument. The technician testified that he was simply trying to recover all of the customer’s photos, wherever they might be.

      My totally uneducated legal analysis is that:
      1) The defendant argued that searching unallocated space meant the Best Buy employee was acting as a government employee, not an informant.
      2) The judge rejected this, thinking that the technician was searching for legitimate repair reasons and was therefore not performing a search.
      3) The FBI might have been worried about #1 and so didn't mention it on the warrant (or they just screwed up).
      4) The judge threw out the warrant because of #3.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    5. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      depends, what if you said there was a problem with the trunk latch and you wanted him to look at it?

    6. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see a problem with chain-of-custody and conflict of interest as well. With a reward of $500-$1000 per incidence, that gives incentive to simply plant evidence.

    7. Re: The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But poking around a hard drive is a legitimate part of fixing a computer,

      Not if I want the power supply replaced.

    8. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      But poking around a hard drive is a legitimate part of fixing a computer, and if they inform on criminal activity they've observed as part of their normal activities they're informants.

      Unless the customer is asking for recovery of deleted files, please explain the reason for looking for files in unallocated space while performing maintenance.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    9. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because they voluntarily brought the computer to Best Buy, not to the FBI. They did not give permission for the FBI to have access.

    10. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Okay, I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here, but why should they need a warrant even if they were effectively working for the FBI? The customer voluntarily brought his computer to Best Buy and the computer was in their custody at the time of the search. There was no entry into the customer's home: Best Buy was in possession of the computer at the time of the search.

      Seriously? The customer does not know that he's turning over his PC to agents of the Federal government. My car is frequently "in the custody" of the hotel parking attendants but I don't expect them to open the glove box & trunk without my express permission

    11. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by quantaman · · Score: 3, Informative

      But poking around a hard drive is a legitimate part of fixing a computer, and if they inform on criminal activity they've observed as part of their normal activities they're informants.

      Unless the customer is asking for recovery of deleted files, please explain the reason for looking for files in unallocated space while performing maintenance.

      FTA:

      The case began in November 2011 when Rettenmaier, a gynecologic oncologist, took his desktop computer to a Best Buy in Mission Viejo, Calif., because it wouldn’t boot up. The technicians there were able to fix that problem, but not recover Rettenmaier’s data. Court records show that Best Buy sends all of its data recovery jobs to Geek Squad City in Brooks, Ky., outside of Louisville.

      The records also show that Rettenmaier signed a form when he first handed over the computer, stating that any child pornography found by Geek Squad technicians will be reported to the authorities. When a technician called Rettenmaier to ask him if he wanted his data restored, including pictures, Rettenmaier said yes on a recorded call. In general, searches performed by private entities do not require a search warrant — only government searches do.

      I'm not saying I agree the technician was acting as an informant, but there's legitimate ambiguities at work.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    12. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2

      AC said > depends, what if you said there was a problem with the trunk latch and you wanted him to look at it?

      Uh.. okay...

      you take your car in for a tuneup and they x-ray the car for hidden compartments- which they search if they find any.

      All of which is more akin to what geek squad members were doing.

      (and for grins they also search the contents of the console, glove box, your trunk, the closed box in your trunk, pull out the seats and search the space behind the seats).

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    13. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What trunk do they search when you have a truck?

    14. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Kjella · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Okay, I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here, but why should they need a warrant even if they were effectively working for the FBI? The customer voluntarily brought his computer to Best Buy and the computer was in their custody at the time of the search. There was no entry into the customer's home: Best Buy was in possession of the computer at the time of the search.

      Because otherwise a sysadmin at AT&T could wiretap any calls the FBI asks them to without violating the 4th amendment? Just because you have legitimate access to something in your job doesn't mean it's free for the police to grab.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    15. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      No, it would be like you having your car towed to a repair shop to be fixed.
      They couldn't fix it without replacing the.... ok so a car analogy doesn't work here.

      BestBuy called the guy up to ask him if they should try and recover his lost data, because they had to format and reinstall the OS.
      He said yes. That call was recorded.
      He had already also signed a consent form that said any child pornography found would be turned over to the FBI.

      Please try and turn it into a car analogy though.

    16. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Think that a bit more. When at any time, any place, anywhere a customer of any kind leaves anything in the custody of the employees, the anything is free for any kind of inspection.

      When a customer goes to a restroom, can employees search through his belongings meanwhile?
      When a customer is put to sleep for surgery, can employees search through his belongings meanwhile?
      When a customer leaves his kid to a kindergarten, can the employees do a body cavity search to the kid?
      When a customer leaves his housekeys in to his car and leaves the car in a guarded parking lot, can the employees search the car to find the keys then go and search the house and dig up the grave of the customer's dead pet dog in the backyard to search its corpse?

      Because clearly you are suggesting all these. As clearly as these examples are strawmen.

    17. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The FBI pays car mechanics to look for a combination of moslem writings and anything that could be used to make IEDs in cars brought in for repair. The repair shop's customers consent to the mechanics going over their cars. The car mechanics have a very lucrative business stashing plant fertilisers and moslem texts in cars brought in my middle eastern-looking customers.

    18. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, so how do you tie this to the doctor? The state of computer security these days -- especially in simple consumer or business machines -- is terrible. The burden of proof still lies on the FBI to prove the doctor himself did indeed traffic or otherwise look at this content.

      They searched unallocated space. We don't know the chain of custody for the hard drive, so there's reasonable doubt that the content found on the drive is content that the doctor did not know about during the time he used his computer. We need more details, and the FBI still has to follow protocol. If Best Buy says nothing about free/unallocated space in their terms, this can easily be a lawsuit against them as well.

    19. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

      The records also show that Rettenmaier signed a form when he first handed over the computer, stating that any child pornography found by Geek Squad technicians will be reported to the authorities. When a technician called Rettenmaier to ask him if he wanted his data restored, including pictures, Rettenmaier said yes on a recorded call.

      There is something that doesn't quite make sense. Presumably if the Doctor knew he had kiddie porn on his computer, there is a bit of a disconnect that he would sign that form. As well, unless he was insane, why would he consent to BB recovering any data? He would know he had illegal shit on the computer, but said in effect. "Yeah, I know you're going to find that stuff and report it to the feds, but YOLO, LOL!" Something doesn't add up here.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    20. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by quantaman · · Score: 1

      The records also show that Rettenmaier signed a form when he first handed over the computer, stating that any child pornography found by Geek Squad technicians will be reported to the authorities. When a technician called Rettenmaier to ask him if he wanted his data restored, including pictures, Rettenmaier said yes on a recorded call.

      There is something that doesn't quite make sense. Presumably if the Doctor knew he had kiddie porn on his computer, there is a bit of a disconnect that he would sign that form. As well, unless he was insane, why would he consent to BB recovering any data? He would know he had illegal shit on the computer, but said in effect. "Yeah, I know you're going to find that stuff and report it to the feds, but YOLO, LOL!" Something doesn't add up here.

      I can think of 4 possibilities.

      a) He didn't realize the technician would actually view the recovered photos.
      b) He had deleted the photos, and didn't realize recovering data might include files he'd deleted on purpose.
      c) Who reads those forms? He probably thought the technician would treat any photos he found as confidential.
      d) People doing stupid things that don't make sense is a very regular occurrence.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    21. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We don't know the chain of custody for the hard drive, so there's reasonable doubt that the content found on the drive is content that the doctor did not know about during the time he used his computer.

      Worse, even if you knew the chain of custody from the manufacturer, and even if you could prove that the material wasn't planted by Best Buy employees, if the drive was refurbished (as is often the case for computers that have been repaired previously), you would also need to know the chain of custody for the platters in the drive, which almost certainly does not even exist.

      Searching the unallocated space on a hard drive for kiddie porn is simply not a legitimate investigative technique, and anybody in law enforcement who works with cybercrime should know that already. So why the heck are we even having this discussion? This evidence must be suppressed as fruit of the poisonous tree, along with any evidence obtained as a direct result of any warranty wrongfully obtained based on that evidence, which likely means that the case will get dismissed for lack of evidence.

      Not to mention that deleted kiddie porn files are not prima facie evidence of a crime, because it is only a crime if possession was willful and with the offender's knowledge (United States v. X-Citement Video, Inc.). If the offender had a reasonable belief that the performers were of legal age, or that the material was not pornographic, or if the offender did not intentionally obtain that material, then it isn't a crime. That's what makes prosecution really problematic.

      Of course, it is quite possible that the Best Buy "finders" are actually parallel construction. For example, the owner of the computer might have knowingly downloaded one of those state-sponsored trojans that we've read about from a kiddie porn site, which in turn caused him to take the computer to Best Buy to remove the infection, and they detected that during the cleanup. If so, it's possible that they aren't allowed to talk about it in court because the trojan would then become part of the public record, which would create a whole new fruit-of-the-poisonous-tree discussion that makes this one look like child's play. But that's pure speculation.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    22. Re: The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they are running police searches while billing you for time, it's fraud too. Felony mail fraud and racketeering if they mail a bill too.

    23. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by geekmux · · Score: 3, Insightful

      depends, what if you said there was a problem with the trunk latch and you wanted him to look at it?

      "Hi, my CD drive isn't working. Oh and while you're at it, can you take a look at my unallocated drive space?", said NO ONE EVER.

    24. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by dwillden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because the Customer granted Best Buy permission to access the files and data needed to repair the computer. Not the FBI. By instituting a regular reward system, the FBI makes the Geek Squad Techs agents of the government. And thus a warrant is required to look at anything not absolutely required for effecting the needed repair. Unless specifically tasked to recover lost/deleted files, Scanning unallocated disk space for image files definitely exceeds that scope of access needed to effect repairs.

      The government is not allowed to simply have someone else do the dirty work to get around the protections afforded a citizen under the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. If someone else finds something and takes it to the Government of their own free will, it is admissible. If the government approaches someone and says hey look for this on every hard drive you service and we'll pay you when you find some, that is inadmissible, or should be as that person is acting as an agent of the government.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    25. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by v1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But poking around a hard drive is a legitimate part of fixing a computer, and if they inform on criminal activity they've observed as part of their normal activities they're informants.

      Not even remotely. I repaired computers for a decade, and never once did I have reason to "poke around on a hard drive". Even on the rare occasion I needed to open a document without the customer's involvement (to test speakers or a video issue for example) I knew where in the OS to find pictures or sound files I could use. I never needed to even rifle through their Pictures folder to find something to open.

      And lets not forget, they were searching the unallocated space on the hard drive. There is absolutely no reason to do this unless you are searching for deleted data. So unless they brought it in for an unformat or to recover something accidentally deleted, you have ZERO business doing that kind of search.

      I see this as no different than contracting a painter to come over and paint a few rooms of your house, and when you step out into the garage to work on your car they start rifling through your dresser looking for anything illegal. Maybe the local DEA has a private deal with that employee and wants to know if he ever "stumbles across" any drugs. And they'll pay him for the tip. And maybe he carries a little baggie in his truck to leave in your underwear drawer if you look like a good mark.

      And lets not forget, he's being offered a reward. If that doesn't reek of "incentive to plant evidence", I don't know what does. There's a reason we don't pay cops bonuses when they make busts. You don't give incentives to law enforcement to find more illegal activity because it encourages them to plant evidence and violate rights. Using a proxy doesn't improve this. If anything, it makes it worse because now you're not trying to rely on the morality and legal knowledge of an officer... now you're relying on the morals and legal know-how of Joe Citizen, and that's a heck of a lot worse still.

      I see three things that need to be addressed here. First off, employees conducting searches that clearly go beyond the business contract. I think anyone who's been surreptitiously searched by a service provider should have grounds for legal action, whether or not they found anything naughty. If I come back in from the garage and see the painter sifting through my dresser he's going to get thrown out of my house as a starter. Then I'm going to be on the phone lighting up the ear of his manager. And depending on how that goes, I may meet him in court a little later. The problem with computer forensics is it's a heck of a lot harder to catch them doing this. They're doing it out of your sight, and leaving essentially no evidence. IMHO that should make civil penalties worse. Penalties for behavior that's harder to catch needs to be more severe to balance out the incentive that it's easier to get away with, to make the risk-calculations in the criminal's head balance out.

      Second, Best Buy should have at least some legal exposure here also, because it should be part of their employee's training that you don't violate the privacy rights of a customer. We didn't have a written policy where I worked, but it was occasionally discussed with the new people that you don't go mucking around on customer hard drives. If several of your employees are taking advantage of their access to customer data for personal gain, this should be a huge issue for Best Buy. Not only is it a legal issue, but it's a huge violation of customer trust and will have an impact on business as customers take their gear elsewhere for service. So it's in the business's best interest for several reasons to prevent this behavior. (that, and how much clock time was wasted by these employees while they conducted hard drive scans, getting paid by the hour from BB to scan hard drives that the FBI would then maybe pay them for? That's theft, as I doubt they d

      --
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    26. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by moeinvt · · Score: 1

      " So why the heck are we even having this discussion?"

      I wish we were not having it. I agree with your reasoning, but the judge in this case sided with the prosecutors and ruled that the guy had given up his right to privacy via his verbal & written agreement with Best Buy.

      A lot of the evidence in this case was suppressed for other reasons. On the specific question of the Geek Squad's search of the unallocated space on the hard drive, the judge ruled that it was a legal search and the information/images could be used as evidence.

    27. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by quantaman · · Score: 1

      And lets not forget, they were searching the unallocated space on the hard drive. There is absolutely no reason to do this unless you are searching for deleted data.

      I did mention in a follow-up comment that in this case there was a phone call from Best Buy aslomg whether they should try to recover data, and the customer responded yes.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    28. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SCOTUS upheld the conviction in United States v. X-Citement Video, Inc.

    29. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by fibonacci8 · · Score: 1

      depends, what if you said there was a problem with the trunk latch and you wanted him to look at it?

      "Hi, my CD drive isn't working. Oh and while you're at it, can you take a look at my unallocated drive space?", said NO ONE EVER.

      "Hi, I accidentally deleted a large number of files and can't log into my machine any more. Oh and while you're at it, can you try to both recover the files and make my system usable again?", said lots of customers.

      --
      Inheritance is the sincerest form of nepotism.
    30. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just checkin' for rust, loose fittings, and dead critters. Once knew a guy who drove his car to a farm. Went out fishing for the day, and drove back home to the garage. Found a terrible smell in his car days later. Had picked up a skunk and the little fellow couldn't get out. Damn car smelled like a breeding farm for the next three months.

    31. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 2

      I can think of 4 possibilities.

      a) He didn't realize the technician would actually view the recovered photos.
      b) He had deleted the photos, and didn't realize recovering data might include files he'd deleted on purpose.
      c) Who reads those forms? He probably thought the technician would treat any photos he found as confidential.
      d) People doing stupid things that don't make sense is a very regular occurrence.

      e) He had a refurbished drive in his computer and the previous owner was responsible for them being there.
      f) Best Buy employees get paid a bounty for finding these and placed them on there.
      g) Best Buy employees don't get paid a bounty, but put them there because they thought he was rude to them.
      h) Best Buy employee put the images on the drive because they were having a bad day.
      i) The owners computer got rooted and some one put those images on the hard drive, but the owner was appalled and deleted them prior to who ever had control of the computer screwed with the boot partition.
      j) The owner of the computer was surfing regular porn and accidentally clicked on a child porn link which put the images in the browser cache.
      k) The owners spouse was pissed off at him for some reason and put the images on before reformatting the boot partition.
      l) The owners sociopathic child thought putting those images on there and then deleted the MBR because would be a funny thing to do.

      I can keep going if you would like me to, but I think you get the point. You could very likely be correct with your four possibilities, but those are by no means the only options.

    32. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here are the problems with the FBI actions:

      1). The customer has a relationship with Best Buy, not the FBI. The FBI is intruding on that relationship;
      2). Best Buy may not act surreptitiously as informants for the FBI. This is an improper relationship;
      3). The customer asked for their computer to be repaired. Best Buy may, in the course of repairing the computer, come across private information. Unless that information is illegal, Best Buy cannot do anything with that information. It is private and Best Buy has a duty of care to treat it as private;
      4). Frankly, it sounds like Best Buy went far beyond this. It sounds like Best Buy may have been actively searching computers for incriminating information. This is illegal, full stop;
      5). All this speaks to the FBI attempting to circumvent legal protections that citizens have. This too is illegal.

      It's a dark day (again) for the FBI. Really, you have a global responsibility not to 'bring the administration of justice into disrepute.' Yet it's hard to see how this does anything less than that.

    33. Re: The judge should have thrown out evidence... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure you understand how computers work.

    34. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by lgw · · Score: 2

      Not to mention that deleted kiddie porn files are not prima facie evidence of a crime, because it is only a crime if possession was willful and with the offender's knowledge (United States v. X-Citement Video, Inc.). If the offender had a reasonable belief that the performers were of legal age, or that the material was not pornographic, or if the offender did not intentionally obtain that material, then it isn't a crime. That's what makes prosecution really problematic.

      I don't think any part of that is true. The SCOTUS reversed the 9th Circus on that case, upholding the original conviction. Some states explicitly don't require intent in their laws - a cop can literally stuff porn in your pocket, then arrest you for possession, and your fate would be in the hands of prosecutorial discretion. Even in sane states, if the search is ruled legal, then you're going to have to convince the jury you didn't know - the burden of proof will be on you, because this is a witch hunt.

      As far as parallel construction, I really wish they were more clear about "unallocated sectors". If they actually mean deleted files, that seems straightforward enough - makes total sense that someone would delete anything incriminating before handing his computer over, and that seems a natural pattern for the FBI to try to exploit. But raw, unpartitioned space on a hard drive? That's very far-fetched.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    35. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      The SCOTUS upheld the constitutionality of the law, but the reason it was upheld was not because the law allowed prosecution of a distributor who was not aware of the underage nature of the performers. Rather, the conviction was upheld because the 9th circuit had already ruled that the prosecutor had sufficiently proven that the distributor had knowledge of the underage nature of the performer (and, IIRC, actually knew the performer), and SCOTUS did not disagree with that assessment.

      The reason for the SCOTUS granting certiorari was that the distributor was attempting a constitutional challenge, claiming that the law made it illegal to distribute child porn without knowing it was child porn, and that it was therefore unconstitutional. That rather bizarre interpretation of the law was supported by the 9th circuit in finding the law unconstitutional, but that interpretation was overturned by the SCOTUS. Because the law did actually require knowledge of the underage nature of the performers, they ruled that it was not unconstitutional, and thus the distributor could not get the conviction overturned on a technicality.

      Some choice bits from the opinion:

      Held: Because the term "knowingly" in sections 2252(1) and (2) modifies the phrase "the use of a minor" in sections (1)(A) and (2)(A), the Act is properly read to include a scienter requirement for age of minority. This Court rejects the most natural grammatical reading, adopted by the Ninth Circuit, under which "knowingly" modifies only the relevant verbs in sections (1) and (2), and does not extend to the elements of the minority of the performers, or the sexually explicit nature of the material, because they are set forth in independent clauses separated by interruptive punctuation. Some applications of that reading would sweep within the statute's ambit actors who had no idea that they were even dealing with sexually explicit material, an anomalous result that the Court will not assume Congress to have intended.

      ...

      The Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit reversed the conviction of respondents for violation of this Act. It held that the Act did not require that the defendant know that one of the performers was a minor, and that it was therefore facially unconstitutional. We conclude that the Act is properly read to include such a requirement.

      ...

      If the term "knowingly" applies only to the relevant verbs in section 2252-transporting, shipping, receiving, distributing, and reproducing-we would have to conclude that Congress wished to distinguish between someone who knowingly transported a particular package of film whose contents were unknown to him, and someone who unknowingly transported that package. It would seem odd, to say the least, that Congress distinguished between someone who inadvertently dropped an item into the mail without realizing it, and someone who consciously placed the same item in the mail, but was nonetheless unconcerned about whether the person had any knowledge of the prohibited contents of the package.

      Some applications of respondents' position would produce results that were not merely odd, but positively absurd. If we were to conclude that "knowingly" only modifies the relevant verbs in section 2252, we would sweep within the ambit of the statute actors who had no idea that they were even dealing with sexually explicit material. For instance, a retail druggist who returns an uninspected roll of developed film to a customer "knowingly distributes" a visual depiction and would be criminally liable if it were later discovered that the visual depiction contained images of children engaged in sexually explicit conduct. Or, a new resident of an apartment might receive mail for the prior resident and store the mail unopened. If the prior tenant had requested delivery of materials covered by section 2252, his residential successor could be prosecuted for "knowing receipt" of such materials. Similarly, a Federal Express courier who delivers a box in which the shipper has declared the contents to be "film" "knowingly transports" such film. We do not assume that Congress, in passing laws, intended such results.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    36. Re:The judge should have thrown out evidence... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      I don't think any part of that is true. The SCOTUS reversed the 9th Circus on that case, upholding the original conviction.

      Go read the actual decision and then tell me I'm wrong.

      This case was not about an innocent bystander, but rather a distributor trying to use a constitutional challenge to avoid conviction. The 9th circuit ruled that the law was unconstitutional by interpreting the statute in such a way that distributing child porn was illegal regardless of whether the person distributing the child porn knew that it was child porn (or even knowing that it was porn, for that matter). In the majority opinion, they said that such a reading was completely absurd and cannot possibly have been the intent of Congress in writing the law, and thus the only plausible interpretation was that the act was only a crime if the distributor knew that it was child porn. Based on that, the SCOTUS reversed the finding of unconstitutionality.

      Because the lower courts had already ruled that the distributor knew that the material was child porn, the conviction was therefore upheld for lack of a constitutional reason to overturn it. The opinion of the majority strongly implied that any law lacking such a requirement would be held prima facie unconstitutional.

      Justices Thomas and Scalia dissented, arguing that such a law would only be unconstitutional if the distributor did not know that the content was pornography, arguing that porn has lower protection than other forms of speech and that someone knowingly distributing porn should be strictly liable for verifying the age of the performers.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  4. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think it's relevant to the customers that visit Best Buy, use their services, or have received hardware as a gift. If employees are doing warrant-less searches and being paid by the government to do it, this is foul play. Any information gathered under these false pretenses is inadmissable in court, according to law. If government won't respect its own laws, then it dilutes the value and even the threat that laws present to someone who might decide to start breaking law, and the state of order is weakened.

    Without further details, we can't know whether the doctor is guilty or not. The hard drive could have been purchased refurbished, from a friend, found in the guts of an old computer at Goodwill... who knows? The important part is, if we're going to gather information, it should be through the proper channels. Bribing near-minimum-wage workers with a month's wages to violate the same laws that protect us all is closer to organized crime than any legitimate government. They know better, and the EFF is one of the few organizations that calls bullshit when they see it.

    It's relevant to Slashdot because if it's happening with Best Buy, it could be happening with other companies and services, too. I should hope the average /.er would avoid BB, but there could be plenty of /.ers who've used the services and it could benefit the lives of people /.ers know, by urging their friends and family to reject Geek Squad service.

    It's already had an effect: it got you to comment about it, didn't it? It's also creating some bad PR for Best Buy, and will call its name (and thus quality, trust, customer loyalty) into question as a technology retailer and service company. These injustices are important to expose and punish, to disincentivize criminal conduct, even when committed by a government that claims to protect its people.

  5. Yes, the FBI was bad. but... by Nutria · · Score: 1

    what standing does the EFF have to sue the FBI? (Third parties can't sue wrong-doers; only the allegedly-wronged party can sue.)

    --
    "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    1. Re:Yes, the FBI was bad. but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the EFF steps up to pay for this guy's legal fees, he may have the gusto to fire back, so to speak. It could be enough to set precedent, pissing off the FBI.

    2. Re:Yes, the FBI was bad. but... by freeze128 · · Score: 1

      It sounds like from the summary that the EFF is not suing for DAMAGES, but instead, suing for information, which will be beneficial to all.

    3. Re: Yes, the FBI was bad. but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They aren't suing over the program, they are suing over the information since they filed a FOIA request and the FBI denied it.

      That is the official act they wish to overturn.

      Any complaint over the actions taken will come after they get information.

    4. Re:Yes, the FBI was bad. but... by Nutria · · Score: 1

      "Paying for someone else to sue" is NOT the same as filing your own suit.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    5. Re:Yes, the FBI was bad. but... by Narcocide · · Score: 1

      Look up "The Freedom of Information Act."

    6. Re: Yes, the FBI was bad. but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      EFF asks for document. FBI does not give EFF document. EFF sues FBI for document.

  6. The discoveries are not accidental by bongk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Some of the articles seem to indicate employees are stumbling across illegal images as part of their repair process. But they are retrieving images from slack space, which afaik is not something a best buy type repair tech would do as part of a repair. So the techs are at a minimum using forensic tools to recover data. Also where are they billing the time for these non repair activities?...forensic scans are time consuming.

    I'm also very curious to know if the techs were then manually reviewing the recovered images, again time consuming, or if the FBI further assisted by providing the tech access to LE tools such as the databases of hashes of known CP to make their searching faster.

    As a victim of CP myself I have no love for creeps who access or share it, but for the FBI to argue that best buy employees weren't being led to perform searches on their behalf sounds rediculous.

    1. Re:The discoveries are not accidental by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Best Buy lets this happen?

    2. Re:The discoveries are not accidental by mentil · · Score: 2

      I find it very suspicious that the techs are specifically scanning unallocated space. It's as if they're looking for files deleted before the computer broke, as in, images that weren't intended to be downloaded. Are they specifically trying to catch people that weren't intending to break the law, taking advantage of strict liability? If so, this is Exhibit B for why Mens Rea should be an allowable defense for every law. Planted drugs would be Exhibit A.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    3. Re:The discoveries are not accidental by geekmux · · Score: 1

      Some of the articles seem to indicate employees are stumbling across illegal images as part of their repair process. But they are retrieving images from slack space, which afaik is not something a best buy type repair tech would do as part of a repair. So the techs are at a minimum using forensic tools to recover data.

      Exactly. Not something that is likely to be found in the standard bucket o' e-tools for a Geek Squad tech. I'd be shocked if 10% of them even know what a forensic scan was.

      Also where are they billing the time for these non repair activities?...forensic scans are time consuming.

      Chances are they were not billing anyone. Given the amount of time scans take, techs were probably initiating them at the end of a work day, and letting them run overnight, while everyone was technically off the clock.

    4. Re:The discoveries are not accidental by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't really matter if the FBI paid them or how much. If they were working under the direction of the FBI then the 4th Amendment applies.

      I took a law class once. That was one of the topics covered.

      Of course, it probably comes down to how good a lawyer you can afford.

  7. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by twalk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's relevant because it means that the police can avoid the 4th amendment simply by having a 3rd party examine things instead of the police doing it directly. It's another word game that's being used to gut the 4th

  8. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by DaHat · · Score: 1

    And that is any different than today... how? The third-party doctrine would seem to apply, not unlike how Google or Microsoft can peruse your email or uploaded files looking for things they don't like (or think illegal and report it).

  9. EFF has no standing by turkeydance · · Score: 1

    unless the post leaves it out.

    1. Re:EFF has no standing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They have standing to sue over FOIA requests.

    2. Re:EFF has no standing by Narcocide · · Score: 1

      Any citizen has the right to sue the government to demand release of any information that is not confidential for the sake of national security. The EFF just also has the knowledge and resources to catch them hiding something illegally and succeed in forcing their hands.

    3. Re:EFF has no standing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I'm sorry Mr John Doe, but whenever the tree in your yard belongs to you or John Smith is a matter of national security"

  10. Imagine Buying a used computer on say Craigslist by OppMan29 · · Score: 1

    where the prior owner just deleted some files..... and sold it to you... and months later you taking said computer for repairs

  11. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or getting giant communications platforms like google, facebook, or ISPs to suppress people's 1st amendment on their behalf.

  12. Re:Imagine Buying a used computer on say Craigslis by BitterOak · · Score: 1

    where the prior owner just deleted some files..... and sold it to you... and months later you taking said computer for repairs

    Then the police would want full details of the purchase and they'd investigate the person who sold the computer to you. It's no good just to say to the police, "What if I had purchased this computer on Craigslist? I'm not saying I did, but I could have."

    --
    If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
  13. sneaky peaky like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "...the doctor consented both orally and in writing to the Geek Squad's search of his device, their search did not amount to a Fourth Amendment violation...."

    But it was (part time) FBI agents masquerading as Geek Squad employees who found this, without a required warrant, the doctors agreement was with _Geek Squad_, not the FBI. Had the doctor known he was dealing with FBI his consent may have been different. Who knows, the "evidence" may even have been planted, to boost the income of part time FBI agents. What if you bought a used computer or storage device, which has illegal material on it, which some part time federal agent found, are you guilty of some crime? The idea of possessing an image of a crime would be crime, then pictures of the holocaust would top the list? When the possession of the illegal pictures went to the FBI, are they now criminals?
    Clearly, the Fourth Amendment was violated. It does not matter how trendy the crime is, the law cannot be altered by emotions.

    1. Re:sneaky peaky like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What they're doing is what they always do. They're trying this with truly reprehensible criminals first. Few people are willing to see a CP criminal go free over what will be characterized as "a technicality". Then they get a favorable (for the FBI) precedent set. Later, they go after much more minor crimes, using the precedent that was set. After all, it's only a baby-step from there. This is the classical way to expand power.

    2. Re:sneaky peaky like... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      No.

      He consented in writing that any child porn would be turned over to the FBI.
      He also consented that Geek Squad could search his hard drive to recover lost files, as they had to reformat it.
      TFA:

      The case began in November 2011 when Rettenmaier, a gynecologic oncologist, took his desktop computer to a Best Buy in Mission Viejo, Calif., because it wouldn’t boot up. The technicians there were able to fix that problem, but not recover Rettenmaier’s data. Court records show that Best Buy sends all of its data recovery jobs to Geek Squad City in Brooks, Ky., outside of Louisville.

      The records also show that Rettenmaier signed a form when he first handed over the computer, stating that any child pornography found by Geek Squad technicians will be reported to the authorities. When a technician called Rettenmaier to ask him if he wanted his data restored, including pictures, Rettenmaier said yes on a recorded call. In general, searches performed by private entities do not require a search warrant — only government searches do.

      The only thing that was done wrong in this case was the FBI

    3. Re:sneaky peaky like... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      ... the FBI misrepresented information when they applied for a warrant to search the mans home.

    4. Re:sneaky peaky like... by dcollins117 · · Score: 1

      The guy was a gynecologic oncologist. There might be a non-purient reason for his having pictures of little girls hoohas on his computer. Were these patients of his? Was he researching a case? I wouldn't consider that against the law. Pediatricians see naked kids all day long. Doesn't make them perverts.

  14. Wooooow...... by Narcocide · · Score: 1

    So it's true, Doctors really suck at computers, don't they?

  15. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by gl4ss · · Score: 2

    well not only warrantless but if the informant is paid by cases found, then.. well, you'll see where it goes.

    --
    world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  16. I'm of a mixed mind. by thadtheman · · Score: 1

    I'm not for the FBI releasing names of Geek Squad Goons, but I want as much information on the program as can be released be done so. Not because I want to out the FBI, but because I want to out the Geek Squad for being the twerps and nongeeks they truly are.

  17. Re:Imagine Buying a used computer on say Craigslis by Narcocide · · Score: 1

    sudo badblocks -b 512 -p 8 -s -w /dev/sda

  18. End-Run Around the Constitution by mentil · · Score: 3, Insightful

    FBI: "We're not doing an end-run around the Constitution. We're paying civilians to do an end-run around the Constitution FOR us! There's a difference!"
    Courts need to come down on this hard or else it'll become standard practice.

    --
    Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    1. Re:End-Run Around the Constitution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      unfortunately for mere citizens, it already is 'standard practice'

    2. Re:End-Run Around the Constitution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most likely result is that the lawsuit will be dismissed because the EFF lacks standing.

      Of course, this kind of bullshit helps elect people like Trump, so... yay FBI?

  19. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by hawguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Without further details, we can't know whether the doctor is guilty or not. The hard drive could have been purchased refurbished, from a friend, found in the guts of an old computer at Goodwill... who knows? The important part is, if we're going to gather information, it should be through the proper channels. Bribing near-minimum-wage workers with a month's wages to violate the same laws that protect us all is closer to organized crime than any legitimate government. They know better, and the EFF is one of the few organizations that calls bullshit when they see it.

    You forgot to mention another possibility -- when you pay someone a big bounty to find something, you're giving them incentive to put it there themselves.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    Before the Anatomy Act 1832, executed criminals were the only legal source of bodies for hospitals to use for surgeon training. Due to high demand from chronic shortage of legal cadavers, "resurrection men" resorted to illegal means to obtain bodies, such as digging up corpses from graveyards or even murder. In 1828, William Burke and William Hare murdered 16 people and sold the bodies. Thomas Williams and John Bishop, part of a group of body snatchers known as the London Burkers, committed murder for the purpose of selling the victim's body in 1831.

  20. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2

    well not only warrantless but if the informant is paid by cases found, then.. well, you'll see where it goes.

    There's already a lot of other precedent that if the person is acting on behalf of the government, then they are a de-facto government agent.

    A really common scenario is when the police bust somebody, and in exchange for a much lighter sentence, he has to become a CI and catch some of his cohorts in the act and have them busted. But in many cases, these CI's don't actually know anybody who they can catch, so they talk somebody else into breaking the law in spite of all of that person's objections. That person will easily get the charges dropped due to entrapment, because the CI was a de-facto government agent, even though he wasn't a police officer.

    Paying these guys to do the FBI's bidding easily makes them a government agent.

  21. FBI was inducing them to plant evidence by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2

    It would have been the easiest thing in the world to pick up $1,000 by planting child porn on someone's computer by members of the geek squad.

    If more than a half dozen geek squad members were working for the FBI, I'd be shocked that at least one didn't turn out to be planting evidence.

    Which should turn up with forensic accounting. (Hmmm. 39 geek squad find 0 to 2 child porn instances but this girl found 7 instances).
    .

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  22. what abort chain of custody / forensics issues? by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    what abort chain of custody / forensics issues? The defense has the right to know and they have the right to do there own forensics work with there own lab.

    Under reasonable doubt I can say

    Who knows if that porn came form other infected systems on the Geek Squad network (I head that they outscored some of the clean up of systems to remote places)

    What if an Geek Squad worker has an infected usb disk that just copy's stuff system to system? some workers have copied stuff from people systems for there own use.

    what if was just in the browser cache??
    http://www.popsci.com/technolo...
    http://gizmodo.com/5099383/pop...

    1. Re:what abort chain of custody / forensics issues? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if the Best Buy employees deposited it there to earn a commission from the FBI?

    2. Re:what abort chain of custody / forensics issues? by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      Under reasonable doubt I can say...

      You clearly don't understand what "reasonable doubt" means. It doesn't mean that all you have to do is throw out another possible explanation and you're home free, it means that the jury has to find your alternate explanation to be reasonable and plausible to the extent that they can't really be sure if the defendant is guilty or not. Just saying that the CP came from some other infected computer in the repair facility isn't enough; you either have to show that there was another computer there with the exact same images on it, or at least show that the facility didn't take proper precautions to prevent infection. And, you also have to explain why the images were deleted, so that you had to use forensic tools to find and recover them. Not impossible, but a far more difficult task than you think.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    3. Re:what abort chain of custody / forensics issues? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Proper precautions, not GS but worked for time with another company trying to do similar things in their stores. For the first 4 or 6 months we were given USB drives with software to connect to remote techs that did most of the work. Those drives were quickly replaced with everything being web based after it was realized that in short time those drives ended up being infected quickly and then infected clients computers. Though part of me still thinks higher level of management actually knew what they were doing because they made sure we charged them for virus removal even if it was us that caused it to appear to begin with.

      Remember hearing about rumors of a lawsuit around the time they stopped using those drives and asked them all to be sent back to corporate offices not just formatted or tossed.,

    4. Re:what abort chain of custody / forensics issues? by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      well you need to use discovery to get the info on there network / precautions. And if the try there geek squad top secret line to say why we can't give that out then it makes the case that much more iffy.

    5. Re:what abort chain of custody / forensics issues? by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      If the geek squad tries to claim that they can't testify about corporate procedure under oath, they're in a world of trouble. This isn't national security here, and unless they can prove that what they did is a trade secret, they can end up in jail for contempt.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
  23. Informant lists can include: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Plumbers, electricians, roofers, tilers, TA's, guide dogs, smiths etc.

    These days even doctors can be snitches.

    Who or whom do you trust into your home?

    1. Re:Informant lists can include: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's "who." "Whom" is used as the subject of a preposition.

    2. Re: Informant lists can include: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a direct object and thus "whom," moron.

  24. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's worse is this will probably (if not already) go into incentivizing the 'discovery of material' on computers meaning that planting evidence will become profitable and widespread.

    Somewhat offtopic, but considering the relative weak security of mainstream computer setups and the interconnectedness of computing devices, I believe possession will eventually have to be decriminalized, but only after a bunch of innocent people have rotted in jails. But it will probably be at least a century given the current political climate and involve society being able to read the brain. Until then, possession will be considered one and the same as intent and a good many more victims will be had.

  25. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's a horrifying, if relevant and probable point.

    People have a lot of incentive to lie or otherwise cheat their "task", especially if it means they can get out of a dead-end job, start saving a little, or buy that sick rig they've been eyeing. $1000 ain't shit to the government, but to nerds trying to make their way up at Geek Squad, that's a big deal. Best Buy's not gonna provide any real incentives to do a good job (at least, not at that level), so these employees probably thought, "Fuck, I'm helping the government AND they value my work! I should keep this up!"

    As usual, pitting the poor against the rights of others. It makes me wonder where the employees are in all of this, and what their stories are. It's not like the government just saunters into your HQ one day and demands you do something highly illegal. It was probably an inside job coming from middle management (perhaps legal pressure for another crime, and their compliance is used as currency to avoid jail time), or pre-discussed with leadership behind a gag order.

    Whatever the case, it wholly deserves the scrutiny and attention it's receiving.

  26. He wasn't in possession of them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ..wait a minute.
    He had them deleted?

    so how was he in possession. it's not like you can just send someone files and they go to jail is it? (actually, in usa it seems it is - kinda surprised this isn't used more for a kind of swatting..).

  27. illegal bytes is a pretty complex problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it was _recovered_ from the computer so it was already deleted to some fashion or another as well.

    receiving illegal photos and deleting them at least shouldn't be illegal. though, that leaves a loophole of storing data in the inbox and claiming you just didnt get around to deleting it.

    never mind people who claim that erotic material featuring small breasted women is cp.

    1. Re:illegal bytes is a pretty complex problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, in Sweden it's illegal to see child porn by mistake, even if one isn't aware that it is child porn. The definition of child porn is also such that it can include adults not having sex, if a prosecutor is in the right mood.
      On a side note, a few years ago a public prosecutor tried to indict youth clinic doctors with accessory to rape for proscribing birth control pills to girls below the age of 15 (the legal age to have sex here) - and doing this while legally obliged to provide contraception to any teen free of charge.

  28. Re: Imagine Buying a used computer on say Craigsli by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually lawyers do just that and the funny thing called the 5th amendment means it works....

  29. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

    It's different because the FBI hasn't asked and paid MS employees to do it. MS is doing it of their own volition.

  30. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Informative

    No. The third-party doctrine only covers information voluntarily given to a third party. The key word in the doctrine is "revelation". Giving a computer to a third party to repair does not constitute revealing all of the data on that computer to that third party, and thus it is not covered by the third-party doctrine. And even with an agreement that gives them the right to inspect files on the system to the extent necessary to effect repairs, that still does not grant them the right to inspect arbitrary, non-software files, which means at no point can it reasonably be considered to be a revelation of the existence of those files, much less of the contents of those files.

    It seems prima facie obvious that giving hardware to a third party for repair purposes absolutely does not remove the expectation of privacy for data contained on that hardware. No Best Buy customer goes in for a computer repair thinking, "I'm giving all of my files to Best Buy for their employees' entertainment." You're giving them a computer to repair, with the expectation that your data will remain securely on that computer and will not leave that computer. In much the same way that storing a hard drive in a safety deposit box does not grant the bank the right to open the box without a warranty and give the files to law enforcement, neither can a computer repair grant Best Buy that right.

    Additionally, as others have mentioned, there are fundamental chain of custody problems involved when non-law-enforcement personnel inspect a computer, to such an extent that any "evidence" obtained should be considered highly suspect to the point of being circumstantial, and arguably shouldn't even be sufficient to qualify as probable cause for a warranted search of the owner's home/office/email/*. But that issue is only relevant if the person opens up the computer and finds kiddie porn on the desktop, such that seeing it was an inevitable and normal part of the repair process. If the person had to even double-click on a folder called XXX to find the kiddie porn, we're back to fruit of the poisonous tree, and the evidence should be considered inadmissable—doubly so if law enforcement enticed those employees to break the law as part of gathering that evidence.

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  31. Did Best Buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...doctor consented both orally and in writing to the Geek Squad's search of his device ...

    Did customers consent to that data being sold, and specifically sold to the government? Did Geek Squad reveal their conflict of interest; searching for data irrelevant to the repair, because it could be sold? This is fraud, now being excused by US courts to support a 'war' on child pornography. It's only a matter of time until they support a war on drugs/piracy.

  32. Re: Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ISP's can legally sell your data in the U.S., so agencies can just purchase your browsing history instead of getting a warrant.

  33. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every single file that gets uploaded to the Microsoft, Amazon, Yahoo, Facebook, and many others, cloud services gets hashed and the list of hashes sent off to the Government NCMEC etc.

    You're STUPID if you think you can trust anyone else with your data, let alone all your encrypted disk blocks while the very same goon squads with rubber hoses tool around nearby on road pirate duty in expensive Mustangs.

    And you should have taken care of your Government problem long ago...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Msr01w7iYw
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJCC-_m9p7I
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MX9hwITqik

  34. So many wrongs... by DrYak · · Score: 1

    Indeed, there could be an incentive to plant false proof just for the seek of getting the money.

    Then there are other problems:
    - The files might not have been his. (2nd hand drive ? Not very likely on a doctor's salary, but still...)

    - It's a *Medical doctor* bringing his machine for repairs.
    There might be information falling under protection of medical data.
    (e.g.: the doctor could have been in middle of work, when his computer crashed, and not have been able to sanitize it, before bringing it for repairs).
    By scanning beyond what it needed to fix the computer, they might discover patient private data, which they shouldn't.

    - It's a *gynecologist*. He might have post-puberty, not yet adult, teen patients.
    The geek squad might accidentally find things that they consider "child pornography" (pictures of pussy belonging to a girl clearly under 21),
    whereas the Doctor might be documenting the evolution under treatment of a very weird rash of one of his younger patients (it's private patient data that nobody outside the said patient and his doctor should ever access) (or there are even less happy reasons for a gynecologist to store picture documentation).

    - etc.

    Also: regarding FBI's behaviour.

    the FBI is completely idiotic in actually using this in court.
    At worst, they should parallel construct : consider this only as a tip attracting attention to some potential problem instead of directly acting on it, and do some of their own police work until they gather enough *legally obtained* information that confirms above suspictions. They build the entire case, even request for warrants, out of the legally obtained information. They only use the paid informant's tips as a suggestion in which direction to look to.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:So many wrongs... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      If there is Protected Health Information on his computer, he probably shouldn't be bringing it to Best Buy. Otherwise he's basically begging to be hit with HIPAA violations.

      Unless Geek Squad is qualified to handle PHI. But I would be surprised if they are.

    2. Re:So many wrongs... by BankRobberMBA · · Score: 1

      As far as using this in court, this probably looks like one of those really easy cases. Tons of precedent for third-party search and CI not proving agency. What will this judge say? Who knows, but from cases I've read before, this guy is probably going to prison.

  35. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by geekmux · · Score: 1

    It's relevant because it means that the police can avoid the 4th amendment simply by having a 3rd party examine things instead of the police doing it directly. It's another word game that's being used to gut the 4th

    I don't see it as 3rd party at all. If you are under the direct employ of a law enforcement agency (contracting, consulting, or otherwise), you should be bound by all of the legalities the parent organization is bound by.

    There's only one way to describe their actions here; circumventing the law. And NO law-enforcement or government official would appreciate the tables being turned on them, so the activity should NOT be acceptable in any way, shape, or form.

    We're also not talking about circumventing the law against jaywalking here. This is the Fourth Amendment.

  36. Re: Oh Dear Lord! by geekmux · · Score: 1

    ISP's can legally sell your data in the U.S., so agencies can just purchase your browsing history instead of getting a warrant.

    This may be true, but the burden of proof is still outstanding as to which person in a multi-member household is responsible for questionable internet activity. Even more so if you also run a public WiFi hotspot (which could be justification for or against operating one).

  37. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by slashrio · · Score: 1

    Also the 'squad' looked on unallocated space so there is doubt the doctor put the pictures there himself.

    --
    "Trump!!", the new Godwin.
  38. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >Rants about data being shipped to the government
    >Posts links to YouTube
    AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!

  39. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    since they got mulder and scully out of the xfiles, the fbi is running rogue dude

  40. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Giving a computer to a third party to repair does not constitute revealing all of the data on that computer to that third party, and thus it is not covered by the third-party doctrine.

    What about if you give the third party permission to search through all the data on the computer?

  41. Terrible SCOTUS decisions set the precedent by moeinvt · · Score: 3, Informative

    I think it's a travesty that the government is allowed to violate the Fourth Amendment by using a 3rd party as a proxy. Unfortunately, there is legal precedent for this type of abuse. In Smith v Maryland the SCOTUS ruled that the individual has no expectation of privacy for data turned over to a 3rd party. Government asked the phone company to install a device to trace Smith's calls without seeking a warrant. The criminal court, appeals court & SCOTUS all ruled that this was legal & the evidence was therefore admissible. There was another terrible decision where the court ruled that government can get your bank records without a warrant, claiming that the records are the property of the bank & not your private papers.

    This case seems to contain a new wrinkle because the FBI was paying people to go on fishing expeditions rather than targeting a specific person. I hope the courts will conclude this was an illegal search, but I think that's unlikely.

    One of the great flaws in The U.S. Constitution is that government is allowed to be the arbiter of its own power.

    1. Re:Terrible SCOTUS decisions set the precedent by BankRobberMBA · · Score: 1

      It's not so much that they are "paying people to go on fishing expeditions", as that they are buying the fish when the boat gets back to shore. This probably reduces the agency in the relationship.

  42. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

    Because the FBI paying people makes them not 3rd party. I think the legal term is "agent of the state". True 3rd party means that they are not working for the FBI. This was one of the arguments Apple used in the San Bernandino phone case; making them produce software for the FBI would make them partly responsible to any activity the FBI would use for that software.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  43. Best Buyer Beware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    BBB

  44. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is where the theory of law and the practice of law intersect at 60 mph with no crumple zones.

    Everything you are saying is NOT being borne out in this guy's case.

  45. Are they required to report? by tflf · · Score: 1

    Can anyone speak as to what legal requirements to report (if any) comes into play when an authorized third-party discovers child pornography during the course of a permitted check of computer equipment? Are there jurisdictions where the the Geek-squad employee could be charged for failing to report?

  46. He's an independent contractor! by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    To sum up: If a Best Buy employee stumbles across something illegal, and alerts the authorities, it's not a 4th Amendment violation (which requires a warrant signed by a judge.)

    If they are asking him to search, then he becomes an agent of government, and a warrant is required, and the search is invalid.

    If they fucking pay him, jfc, he's totally a government agent.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re:He's an independent contractor! by BankRobberMBA · · Score: 1

      Devil's advocate:

      If you report a bug to Google and get a bounty, that doesn't make you a Google employee.
      If you find and report child pornography to the Feds and collect a reward, it doesn't make you a cop ("agent of the government").

  47. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    This is where the theory of law and the practice of law intersect at 60 mph with no crumple zones.

    Everything you are saying is NOT being borne out in this guy's case.

    Exactly. And if this trial result stands, everything dtgatwood said will be a quaint relic of history.

    The GGP post could have said, "if this case proceeds along its current trajectory" or something else softening, but that is usually assumed.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  48. Yeah, right. NOW they care by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NOW they care about it, when it's not their little leftist cadre in control of the executive branch anymore.

  49. Re: Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ISP's can legally sell your data in the U.S., so agencies can just purchase your browsing history instead of getting a warrant.

    This may be true, but the burden of proof is still outstanding as to which person in a multi-member household is responsible for questionable internet activity. Even more so if you also run a public WiFi hotspot (which could be justification for or against operating one).

    The person in the household whu signed the ISP contract is criminally responsible and should be charged as the primary perpetrator, others in the house are criminal accessories to whatever crime was committed. Burn 'em all.

  50. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

    Because the FBI paying people makes them not 3rd party. I think the legal term is "agent of the state".

    It does not necessarily make Best Buy employees agents of the State if the FBI happens to have enough dirt on the judge hearing the case or his family.

    Just sayin'

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  51. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are minor differences, but this sounds similar to the old days with photo processing. If your photos included naked kids, they could (and in some states were required to) turn them into the police and you could expect a visit.

  52. Re: Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I got a cable modem so I run public wifi. It is not a choice, I lose service completely if I turn it off.

  53. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Goodwill does not sell donated computers, at least in AZ.
    Every computer "donated" to them goes to a scrapper in Mexico.
    Just talk to any young-ish shelf stocker guy and ask if they ever get any computers for sale.

    The most I've seen is a motherboard in a box, or a stripped and empty ATX case.

    I do understand your point though.

  54. Based on the FBI's logic by fox171171 · · Score: 1

    So if someone offered cash rewards for killing someone, that's okay right? It sounds like the same logic to me. Getting someone else to do your dirty work puts you in the clear? No it does not.

  55. I don't get people by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 1

    If I was into that shit - I wouldn't leave it on the disk and take it to a place that employs high school grads (or not) to fix my PC.

    I manage client systems front ends - and one time I was like "why isn't this system patching" and upon investigation I found that the disk was totally full. So I was like - hmm I wonder why it's totally full. It had tons of XXX rated videos on it.

    In the course of troubleshooting you are going to find that stuff.

    It would be like if you were a mechanic and popped out a door panel in the course of repairing something and found a load of drugs or something.

  56. I have no doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A geek squad employee would put some on..

  57. Re: Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I bought a laptop HDD off of craigslist recently. I knew to DBAN it, but how many "average" citizens would think to do that?

  58. logic = geeksquad guilty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The logic of this means everyone is guilty.

    If someone finding CP on a laptop at best buy will get the laptop owner arrested, then clearly the best buy employee who viewed the CP is guilty of the same crime for the same reason.

    Rights-stealing douchebags need to see their flawed logic all the way through or they don't ever learn they are rights-stealing douchebags.

  59. what about when dell / hp / others refurbish parts by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    what about when dell / hp / others use refurbish parts under warranty

  60. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    What makes you people this has any effect on anything?

    IME getting access to records has a direct effect on if you have access to the records. What part are you having trouble with?

  61. The cable guy... by Macdude · · Score: 1

    In other news, the FBI is paying cable installers for tips on people keeping illegal items in their homes.

    Side note: Cable installers are making $1,000 for each $20 bag of weed they hide in people's homes.

    --
    "Grab them by the pussy" -- President of the United States of America
    1. Re: The cable guy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A friend of mine had his door busted down and a police officer standing on his neck screaming "where are the money amd gun?!?!" because his roommate legally (amputee med mj patient in Oregon) had a single pot plant in the house that a plumber saw and informed on him about.

  62. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your suggesting that giving them permission to search all data on the computer gives them permission to search for data that is deleted off of the file system? Effectively OFF of the system?

  63. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

    My two favorite fictional FBI agents aside, the FBI has been a rogue organization since it began. Just like all the others.

  64. Agent relationship by BankRobberMBA · · Score: 1

    As someone who has read literally dozens of cases of guys convicted using the testimony of Confidential Informants, I disagree. In the federal system, at least, there is lots of precedent that CIs are NOT agents of the government, in spite of acting at their behest, being paid by them, and being strongly incentivized to produce convictions. There is a similar issue at play in the use of the federal conspiracy statute.

    Incorrect assessment of the agency relationship is one of the biggest problems with the War on Drugs, as currently administered. There is a little variability from district to district, and the States' systems are obviously a whole other kettle of fish, but please don't spread misinformation.

    You might also profitably read about the third-party search doctrine. It is extremely relevant in child pornography cases.

  65. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by BankRobberMBA · · Score: 1

    I was locked up with a pedophile in Allenwood PA who was arrested and convicted based on child pornography found during an illegal search conducted by a third party. This is the third party search doctrine. When a non-government employee discovers something illegal, through illegal means, he can report it to the authorities and they can use that evidence. The Fourth Amendment protects you from illegal governmental search, not illegal search generally.

    If a burglar breaks into your basement and finds a woman you have kidnapped and calls the police, you are cooked regardless of how she was found.

    There is a real question of when the BB guys become agents of the government, but prior decisions along this line are not encouraging.

  66. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by BankRobberMBA · · Score: 1

    Paying bounties is very different than employing. Not sayin' it's right. Just sayin' the Feds have a history of this. Many, many confidential informants receive money for their work, but they're not agents of the state in court.

  67. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by BankRobberMBA · · Score: 1

    Probably the government's position will be that they were not in the direct employ of the gov. They were private actors and received bounties for their efforts. This is their stance on confidential informants in drug cases, conspiacy cases and in some entrapment cases.

  68. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

    Depends if you consider a paid informant an agent of the state or not. I think courts have ruled that they are. Informants that gain something after they obtain information are not considered agents.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  69. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by BankRobberMBA · · Score: 1

    Okay, IANAL, and all of that. However, when I was locked up the Feds provided us a subscription to a periodical called the Criminal Law Review. This gave summaries of cases and decisions with potential import for inmates who had appeals running. There were several types of cases that I always read; one of these was cases that involved the use of confidential informants, another was attempted entrapment defense.

    In all of the cases of these two types that I ever read, I don't remember any Federal Appeals Court ruling that receiving money from the cops made an informant an agent of the state. This has strong implications for both wrongful convictions (dudes will finger somebody they have never even seen for a reward or a sentence cut) and for entrapment (once a government agent is involved in instigating a crime, the courts have a test called the "but for" test which is a whole other kettle of fish).

    I do think there was a guy on a trumped up terrorism charge that got a favorable ruling a year or two ago, but I don't remember the details, so things might be changing. I haven't had access to research materials for a year, now.

    Beyond that, your last sentence was "Informants that gain something after they obtain information are not considered agents." Isn't that exactly what happened in the case in question? The Geek guys found the child porn and notified the FBI, then they got rewards.

  70. Re:Oh Dear Lord! by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

    Beyond that, your last sentence was "Informants that gain something after they obtain information are not considered agents." Isn't that exactly what happened in the case in question?

    The question pertains to prior relationship and payments. If a Geek Squad technician found something and turned it over to law enforcement without any reward, that would be different. Also if the technician had no prior dealings with the FBI falls changes the case. In this case, the FBI proactively sought technicians beforehand to snoop for them in what could be considered an end-around the 4th Amendment.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.