Study Finds Yoga Works As Well As Physical Therapy For Back Pain (time.com)

same difference by networkzombie · 2017-06-20 15:45 · Score: 5, Insightful

Isn't yoga physical therapy? Except for the therapist / yoga guru, they seem the same.

Re:same difference by ShanghaiBill · 2017-06-20 16:35 · Score: 3, Interesting

Isn't yoga physical therapy? Except for the therapist / yoga guru, they seem the same.
Pretty much. My wife has a back injury and tried both yoga and physical therapy. The yoga was stretching and exercises. The physical therapy was stretching and exercises. The only difference was that PT cost money, while she could learn yoga for free from Youtube videos.
Re:same difference by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 17:11 · Score: 0

Exercise is a major component of the lasting benefits of physical therapy, but a good physical therapist should do more than just prescribe exercise and, importantly, should also tell patients which exercises they should be avoiding or be careful about. Teaching body mechanics and good movement patterns for individuals' unique common movements (ex: cashier vs carpenter) goes a long way too.
Re:same difference by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 18:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

And likewise you can get many physical therapy exercises for free online too. But often a bit of personalization to your problem and feedback on your form can go a long way to making sure you learn the right way of doing things and lower risk of injuring yourself in the long run. In that case, physical therapy is free for many insurance programs while yoga is not.
Re:same difference by AmiMoJo · 2017-06-20 23:38 · Score: 4, Insightful

The difference between physical therapy and yoga is not the exercises. It's that a physical therapist with some kind of medical qualification evaluates your needs and makes recommendations. For many people those recommendations will just be "do yoga", but if the pain is the result of an injury it might be useful to know what exercises are safe and won't make it worse.
Obviously up to you if you think paying for that advice is worth it. I've found that just experimenting carefully by myself had better results.

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Re:same difference by Stewie241 · 2017-06-21 01:03 · Score: 1

Perhaps where you're from... most people I know who have gone to physiotherapy have ended up in physio sessions three times a week doing various stretching and exercise.
Re: same difference by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 01:48 · Score: 0

Correct. Typical back pain can be resolved with mild exercise and stretching. A PT, with medical expertise, are better suited for more severe conditions such as after an injury or surgery.
Most states regulate who can see a PT. You normally need a referral. This is because the AMA didn't like the idea of people bypassing the physicians (or their office).
Fyi, most back pain resolves itself anyway. Surgery is not needed the majority of the time - contrary to those TV ads.
Re:same difference by Dixie_Flatline · 2017-06-21 03:46 · Score: 2

I've had a persistent IT band problem for about 15 years from doing a lot of cycling and not noticing that my saddle was slightly askew for a while. To this day, if my bike is set up incorrectly, I'll end up with a pain so intense that I absolutely can't move my leg while I'm on the bike, and it will even make walking difficult later.
I went to physio for it. There were stretches and TENS therapy and massage with an obnoxious piece of metal (it was shaped like a large butterknife and was used to break down scar tissue in the area where my IT band was grinding against some bone). After 8 weeks of that, I was 'cured' and sent on my way. It DID feel better, but I'd still have trouble on long rides.
I went to a training camp, and there was a yoga class for cyclists included in the package. I'd been riding in low to moderate pain for the beginning of the camp, but literally just one yoga session solved my problem. I rode for the rest of that camp without any issues, and I still use the stretches that I learned.
I'm not providing this anecdote to denigrate physiotherapists, but I don't think they put enough stock in solutions like yoga. It was never brought up, and the stretches I was given to do weren't even close to as effective as the ones I picked up in that class. It could be that the physio I did was required to see the gains that I eventually saw later down the road, but I'm honestly very doubtful.
I believe strongly in Western medicine and the scientific process, but the reality is that a lot of doctors consider everything not done in a clinical setting a complete waste of your time and won't even suggest dropping into a yoga class to see how that goes at first.
Re:same difference by angel'o'sphere · 2017-06-21 04:00 · Score: 2

In Germany many (most?) Yoga teachers are actually Physio Therapists.
That way their students can get the course costs partly or fully refunded by the health insurance.

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Re:same difference by LunaticTippy · 2017-06-21 04:24 · Score: 3, Interesting

When I had physical therapy I didn't want to go in 3x a week so I asked them if they could show me the techniques and I would do them at home. They were happy to oblige. Many patients are bad at doing the exercises and want the hand holding, but it isn't mandatory. The PT clinic isn't going to promote home care since they don't get paid for it.

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Man, you really need that seminar!
Re:same difference by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 05:08 · Score: 0

So borderline insurance scam?
Re:same difference by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 05:42 · Score: 0

I've done both. There are three differences:
1. Yoga is something you learn to do yourself, and if you pay attention you will have that awareness and know these techniques for the rest of your life. Physical therapy is something that a therapist does to you, and often they don't even explain properly what they are doing.
2. Unfortunately, yoga is also "spiritual". But you can just ignore the omms, they don't matter.
3. Some yoga positions are actually dangerous. Don't force it if it hurts a lot. Listen to your body more than to the guru.
Re:same difference by HiThere · 2017-06-21 07:08 · Score: 1

What you need to remember is that there are loads of schools of yoga, and many of them weren't designed to improve your body. Some of them don't even directly address the body.
But even if you restrict the domain to hatha yoga, which is what you are contemplating, it includes things like standing on one leg for hours with your fingers pressed against your palm. This intentionally causes pain, and is not designed to improve your body in any way (though I guess it might improve your balance).
So you need to select the correct yoga. (Yoga basically means union.) Most of those who advertise as yoga teachers in the western world are claiming to benefit the body, but not all, and sometimes their school, while it may have that as a side effect, doesn't really have that as a goal.

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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:same difference by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 08:05 · Score: 0

Did they talk about how they compared to placebo?
Re: same difference by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-22 04:25 · Score: 0

And you should mention yogaâ¦ I started doing DDP yoga a few years back along with starting cycling or more intense level than I have in the past. Kaiser and written for many years were surprised me at six months with keeping up with them already just between those two things.
Cyclist Tom Danielspn wrote a book called Core Advantage, based on his work with a sports oriented physical therapist. Not surprisingly, many of the poses I was doing in DDP Yoga were a part of the workouts and stretches. Good book too, built to allow any of the poses without buying equipment.
Re: same difference by DarionScard1029 · 2017-06-22 04:28 · Score: 1

Round two...thanks dictation. Funny you should mention yoga and cycling...I started doing DDP yoga a few years back along with starting cycling at a more intense level than I have in the past. Guys I rode with who had ridden for many years were surprised by me at six months keeping up with them already just between those two things. Cyclist Tom Danielspn wrote a book called Core Advantage, based on his work with a sports oriented physical therapist. Not surprisingly, many of the poses I was doing in DDP Yoga were a part of the workouts and stretches. Good book too, built to allow any of the poses without buying equipment.

exercise by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 15:47 · Score: 0

Yes its called exercise. streching=muscle fiber brakedown=new stronger muscle regeneration=no back pain duh!

Re:exercise by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 20:32 · Score: 0

Nope.
It ain't only stretching. A big problem is muscle imbalance.
Both the frontal abs and the back muscles must be balanced in terms of strength and development
in order for the spine between them to be set and supported properly.
Takes some calculating to get the right training regimen, as yoga by itself won't help.
I'd personally say Yoga in the pretentious "spiritual" manner it is taught is a waste of time
while incorporating only certain exercises from it and combining them with PT cores
without wasting 15 minutes to do an exercise "spiritually" is the best choice without wasting one's time.
Re:exercise by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 22:56 · Score: 0

1) it's
2) breakdown. Brakes are on a car.
Shit's sake, is it Dummy Wednesday already?
Re:exercise by gnick · 2017-06-21 01:32 · Score: 1

I'd personally say Yoga in the pretentious "spiritual" manner it is taught is a waste of time while incorporating only certain exercises from it and combining them with PT cores without wasting 15 minutes to do an exercise "spiritually" is the best choice without wasting one's time.
If posing and stretching helps somebody focus, then what's wrong with incorporating it as a spiritual activity? Many activities can have a spiritual component if they help you get centered. Or maybe you consider all "spiritual" activities a waste of time.
Personally, when I've participated in yoga classes I found them relaxing and thought it felt good. PT I thought was a pain in the neck (even though there was some overlap), but it got me walking again. In my case, unlike apparently with back pain, yoga wasn't focused enough on what I needed to do the job even if I'd considered it as an option.

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Re: exercise by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 01:43 · Score: 0

Mod up. Your physical therapist determines the proper exercise's and stretches to balance your muscles. And PT lacks the spiritual aspect of yoga, unimportant in this context.
Tod
Re:exercise by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 02:31 · Score: 0

This is a discussion on what works best for back pain, not what works best to make you feel good about yourself.
It only makes sense that if something is slower to get a result, and more inefficient in the sense that it doesn't tackle the core issue instead opting for a wider range of exercises and excuses, then it is not better. It is in fact less efficient and less effective, and that is Yoga.
If you want to relax:
1. Get a partner
2. Stop being mad about stupid irrelevant shit
3. Learn to enjoy the job giving you your salary (or change to a different one where you will feel accomplished and happy)
Yoga won't help you with any of this, as it is not a solution to any of these problems, it is just a spiritual drug.
Spirituality is a spiritual drug, it doesn't do shit except serve as a placebo that you pay for monthly, and makes you feel like you are above yourself even when you objectively aren't.
A person who is successful in life is always relaxed and happy. Success doesn't require yoga, it requires decision making with direct consequences and solutions. Yoga is snake-oil that only becomes medicine once the stupid spiritual time-wasting shit is stripped away.
Re:exercise by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 14:34 · Score: 0

Yes its called exercise. streching=muscle fiber brakedown=new stronger muscle regeneration=no back pain duh!
No, that does not happen with stretching. Stretching reduces muscle strength.

What's the difference by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 15:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

Use whatever works best. I once got a printout of lower back exercises from my doctor and it worked better than anything else. No yoga, no PT, just follow the instructions and I felt much better. You have to do it consistently, so that may be why some people find yoga better than PT.

yoga != physical therapy ? sample size... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 15:49 · Score: 0

Errr... Why stack yoga against physical therapy and not make it part of it ?

And then, you are going to tell me that a sample of 320 (1 ppm in respect to the American population) is representative while such pathologies affect 10% of the population...

Must be a joke

Re:yoga != physical therapy ? sample size... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 18:19 · Score: 0

And then, you are going to tell me that a sample of 320 (1 ppm in respect to the American population) is representative while such pathologies affect 10% of the population...
Learn some statistics, as representative and significant sample sizes has a lot more to do with the strength of the effects being examined and the possible factors being considered. There are times when 300 is way more than needed, and times when it is too small, regardless of the population of the US.
Re:yoga != physical therapy ? sample size... by Mr+D+from+63 · 2017-06-20 22:52 · Score: 1

And then, you are going to tell me that a sample of 320 (1 ppm in respect to the American population) is representative while such pathologies affect 10% of the population...
I suppose you can't read, because the article didn't use the sample to determine what effects 10% of the population. I suppose you can't think either, because people of lower socioeconomic status are more likely to have jobs that require physical labor or strain, which is kind of obvious.
Re:yoga != physical therapy ? sample size... by clovis · 2017-06-21 02:13 · Score: 1

If you are going to try to insult the intelligence of people, then you should know the difference between "effects" and "affects".

Physical therapy and yoga are the same thing by topham · 2017-06-20 15:49 · Score: 1

Physical therapy and yoga are very similar. Shockingly enough!!!

Re:Physical therapy and yoga are the same thing by gnick · 2017-06-21 01:37 · Score: 1

One has stretchy bands, inflatable balls, and machines. The other has pants that should require a license to wear.

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Why Yoga won't be more widely used by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 15:52 · Score: 1, Interesting

Christians have tried to convince people that yoga is evil. Rather than simply being exercises, they try to claim that yoga is a way for Hinduism to infiltrate the western world and spread their religion. They've done their best to try to prevent Christians from practicing yoga, even if it's just doing a set of poses. The local Catholic bishop has told people in the diocese that practicing yoga is essentially a grave matter, effectively saying that it's a serious sin. As usual, religion gets in the way of something good that can actually help people.

And no, it's not unmanly. Awhile back, former WWE wrestler Diamond Dallas Page was on Shark Tank to pitch a very successful yoga program. He brought a guest for his pitch who he said had severe back pain and weight issues, but had made incredible improvements from doing the yoga routine. It was pretty remarkable, and yoga has obvious health benefits. It's one data point, but there's a body of evidence that yoga has significant health benefits.

Can we stop saying that yoga is evil and unmanly? This is stupid.

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by gl4ss · 2017-06-20 16:20 · Score: 1

uh maybe you should move out of vatican.
or expose your local bishop as anti-christian hate mongerer that he is. it's not hard to do really.
of course it's not easy if the people who listen to him are hatemongerer dolts as well. still, you could convince a few of them that the bishop is an asshat.
or you know, you could start a choga gym. same thing, different name. actually if your locale is stupid enough to fall for something that stupid a bishop says they might fall for that.
because seriously, you don't need to have studied the bible for that long to know that it has nothing in it saying that yoga is sinful. absofuckinglutely nothing. it also has nothing in it that would imply that praying to saints would bring good fortune though so theres that..

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Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by ShanghaiBill · 2017-06-20 16:46 · Score: 1

yoga is a way for Hinduism to infiltrate the western world and spread their religion.
Hindus have very little interest in spreading their religion to the Western World. Hinduism is tightly bound to Indian culture, and doesn't fit well at all into other cultures. Christianity and Islam are unusual in being universal religions that can apply to all of humanity. Most religions are tribal, like Hinduism and Judaism, and adherents make little or no effort to proselytize to other ethnicities.
Yoga is not a threat to American civilization. You should go back to worrying about Sharia.
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by UnknownSoldier · 2017-06-20 17:09 · Score: 4, Informative

> Some dumb Christians have tried to convince people that yoga is evil.
FTFY.
/sarcasm Because eating Italian food makes one Italian, and practicing stretching makes one Hindu, and ... oh WAIT, no one has a monopoly on stretching.
Some dumb Christians also believe that "Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him," (1 Cor 11:14). Apparently these retards haver never seen a male horse with a long mane, nor a male lion.
The only ones saying Yoga is "evil" are idiots.
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 19:31 · Score: 0

Christians have tried to convince people that yoga is evil. Rather than simply being exercises, they try to claim that yoga is a way for Hinduism to infiltrate the western world and spread their religion. They've done their best to try to prevent Christians from practicing yoga, even if it's just doing a set of poses. The local Catholic bishop has told people in the diocese that practicing yoga is essentially a grave matter, effectively saying that it's a serious sin. As usual, religion gets in the way of something good that can actually help people.
And no, it's not unmanly. Awhile back, former WWE wrestler Diamond Dallas Page was on Shark Tank to pitch a very successful yoga program. He brought a guest for his pitch who he said had severe back pain and weight issues, but had made incredible improvements from doing the yoga routine. It was pretty remarkable, and yoga has obvious health benefits. It's one data point, but there's a body of evidence that yoga has significant health benefits.
Can we stop saying that yoga is evil and unmanly? This is stupid.
I had a catholic pastor try to tell me that Karate and martial arts were evil, basically a way that Taoism (which according to him was a form of satanism) was being spread to youth in the area and that practicing martial arts and learning how to defend ones self and ones family was not trusting in Jesus.
I quit the church and became an atheist that week. Seriously, This guy believes that there is an invisible man in the sky that wants republicans to be president and that hates women for getting abortions and wants America to build a wall and all that shit? What incredible BS!
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 19:34 · Score: 0

> Some dumb Christians have tried to convince people that yoga is evil.
FTFY.
/sarcasm Because eating Italian food makes one Italian, and practicing stretching makes one Hindu, and ... oh WAIT, no one has a monopoly on stretching.
Some dumb Christians also believe that "Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him," (1 Cor 11:14). Apparently these retards haver never seen a male horse with a long mane, nor a male lion.
The only ones saying Yoga is "evil" are idiots.
Jesus had long hair.
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by angel'o'sphere · 2017-06-20 20:26 · Score: 1

That bible quote most likely is a fake introduced later anyway (I mean: it likely was never in a Corinthian letter, they are written by Petrus, right?)
In ancient times (and the bible is full with references to that) most men weared long hair. As well in germanic cultures as in middle eastern cultures. In some cultures it was believed that the strength of a man is in his hair.
The habit to shave the head of convicts, war collaborators, conscripted soldiers etc. comes from that "believe".

--
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Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by jeti · 2017-06-20 21:16 · Score: 1

Unlikely.
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 21:33 · Score: 0

because seriously, you don't need to have studied the bible for that long to know that it has nothing in it saying that yoga is sinful.
I don't know why you think it is relevant to bring up the bible. I don't know any chrisitans that follows it.
They don't follow it to the letter and they don't follow it in spirit so what it says is fairly irrelevant when discussing christians.
Anyway, the part in the bible that christians thinks apply is the thing about not following other religions.
They consider yoga to be another religion so they think it is sinful.
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 21:37 · Score: 0

Jesus was a socialist arab Jew, what else do you need to know?
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 22:35 · Score: 0

Your trolling is obvious to 99% of us.
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by pkphilip · 2017-06-21 01:43 · Score: 1

Not all yoga is religion, but there are types of yoga involving chants, mantras etc and invocation of deities. Those are definitely religious.
There are chants invoking Shiva etc. See the common yoga chants here:
https://www.yogajournal.com/yo...
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by pkphilip · 2017-06-21 01:51 · Score: 1

The Hindu right in India begs to differ with you. The Hindu right have notions of grandeur which involve conquering neighboring countries and bringing them under a Hindu "rashtra" (kingdom). The present Indian government under the BJP Party have made it clear that they are interested in declaring India as an Indian state and also the current PM is on record as calling for an Akhand Bharat (a greater nation which incorporates Pakistan, Bangladesh, parts of Afghanistan etc).
http://indianexpress.com/artic...
The present government has also declared their intent to declare India as a Hindu nation with minority rights severely restricted as per the ideologies of their parent organizations that they owe allegiance to - such as the RSS and the Hindu Mahasabha.
http://www.rediff.com/news/rep...
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by pkphilip · 2017-06-21 01:52 · Score: 1

Correct: The present Indian government under the BJP Party have made it clear that they are interested in declaring India as an **Hindu** state
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 02:03 · Score: 1

It looks like people will make up pretty much anything to bash Christians. My and I are life long Christians. I've never heard of Christians making any such claims. My wife is a Christian book author who practices yoga herself. Christians know that yoga, like chiropractors and acupuncture, rice and soy sauce, come from non-christian origins. Christians eat rice and soy sauce, too.
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by jgtg32a · 2017-06-21 05:18 · Score: 1

It honestly depends on the instructor if it is religious or not. I would love to find one that just ran us through the forms and focused on proper technique.
I haven't found one.
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by HiThere · 2017-06-21 07:25 · Score: 1

Not precisely. Some generals required their troops to shave their beards and cut their hair to keep an opponent from grabbing them by the hair. This, of course, was certainly not widespread. Definitely not before the age of easily sharpened razors. But it happened. And it wasn't (in those cases) intended as a sign of shame.

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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by HiThere · 2017-06-21 07:28 · Score: 2

That gets tricky. Sometimes those chants are definitely religious, other times it would be more proper to call them philosophical. (In both cases indoctrination is fair.) But how do you rate them when the chants are in a foreign language (unintelligible to the chanter) and aren't translated?

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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by HiThere · 2017-06-21 07:31 · Score: 1

If you are thinking of an instructor that didn't believe that yoga included philosophical or spiritual meaning, I doubt he would be a valid instructor in yoga. But there are so many different schools that I could be wrong.
The root of the word yoga means union, and the idea was the union of the practitioner with the universe (in some sense...the schools differ widely about in what sense).

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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by angel'o'sphere · 2017-06-21 08:26 · Score: 1

Alexander the Great was the first (known) to make that suggestion (cutting away the beard), but he did not enforce it.
Hair is not really relevant as it is below a helmet.
Razor sharp baldes we have since the stone ages, flint can be shaped into razors. Bronze blades are as sharp as steel blades, just not as durable.

--
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Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by HiThere · 2017-06-21 12:01 · Score: 1

Any hair that can be grabbed is relevant. IIUC Belisarius did enforce it. And bronze blades can't be kept sharp. Obsidian could be, but it's difficult to deal with.

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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by pkphilip · 2017-06-21 19:48 · Score: 1

Why chat at all if it is supposed to be just exercise? Many of the mantras are invocations to Shiva, Ganesha etc. The deeper you go into yoga you get into things like Kundalini etc which is seen as a serpent kundalini resting in the base of the spine. If all of that isn't spooky and religious, what is?
Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used by angel'o'sphere · 2017-06-21 20:29 · Score: 1

Bronze blades are as sharp as steel blades, thy only get dull quicker and need resharpening more often.
Obsidian could be, but it's difficult to deal with.
Yeah, you can not really resharpen it.

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.

Not surprised at all by moronikos · 2017-06-20 15:55 · Score: 4, Informative

Since when I went to Kaiser Permanente 20 years ago for back pain, they gave me a bunch of exercises with my physical therapy. A few years ago I was reading a book about yoga and all the exercises they gave me were yoga moves. So, basically the physical therapy is yoga.

Re:Not surprised at all by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 17:18 · Score: 0

Physical therapy tends to focus on movement patterns as a whole more than yoga does, and it tends to emphasize certain muscles to help brace the spine when given for low back pain, but I'm not surprised that the exercises are similar. I'm glad that they gave you exercises that you could continue to do on your own. One caution I would give is that physical therapists are often selective about which exercises they prescribe people while a group yoga session might include some exercises that could be harmful for participants depending on their diagnosis/problem.
Re:Not surprised at all by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 18:36 · Score: 0

I know a woman who teaches Yoga for pregnant women, on referral from none other by Kaiser Permanente. She teaches Yoga without any of the Metaphysical crap; it's basically just stretching and breathing exercises and paying attention to what a rapidly changing body is annoyed about. The point is to obviate the need of PT in the first place, which can be very expensive once damage is done.
Yoga has gotten a bad rap because of the "New Age" association; basically all self-professed Yogis are frauds. She is not a Yogi. She also teaches Latin, but that does not make her an Ancient Roman or a Catholic Priest.
Re:Not surprised at all by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 05:11 · Score: 0

Since I went to the Pharmacy 20 years ago to get medication for back pain, they gave me pills. A few years ago I was in a gas station and bought some pills. So, basically the gas station is a Pharmacy.
Having done physical therapy and yoga, they are similar and also quite different. Not the same thing. Both have pluses and minuses.
Re:Not surprised at all by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 06:19 · Score: 0

sure
and a witch doctor is just a doctor who does medicine via magic and does it a whole lot cheaper!
it gives us an excuse to pretend that migrant or refugee "doctors" are just as necessary as our western educated "WHITE MALE!!!!! RRRRRRRRRR" doctors
Re:Not surprised at all by HiThere · 2017-06-21 07:36 · Score: 1

If you want to claim that "all self-professed Yogis are frauds" you are asserting a lie. If you said many, or possibly even most, you'd have a good point. There is no standardization of what is a yoga teacher, and there's can't be, as yoga has so many different schools. OTOH, in many places all you have to do is claim to be a yoga teacher...which makes it an easy place for con-artists to work.
It's basically like claiming that "all preachers are frauds". It's certainly true that many are, but it's also true that many aren't.

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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:Not surprised at all by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 11:33 · Score: 0

"If you want to claim that "all self-professed Yogis are frauds" you are asserting a lie. If you said many, or possibly even most, you'd have a good point."
Yup, all frauds, every single one of them; they are either deluding their followers or deluding themselves. That why this woman, and increasingly many others like her, just call themselves "Yoga Instructors". I am not asserting a lie, all that you have to do to prove your assertion is to produce one, just one, Yogi who actually is what they claim, and whose beliefs and practices are verifiable. Yogi Bear does not count. I might be willing to concede Yogi Berra, and take it with a grin of salt.
"It's basically like claiming that "all preachers are frauds". It's certainly true that many are, but it's also true that many aren't."
OK, I'll play by the same rules: "... basically all self-professed Preachers are frauds. Yup, all frauds, every single one of them; they are either deluding their followers or deluding themselves." This is a fun game; do you have any other examples? Lawyers? Advertisers? Libertarians?
"There is no standardization of what is a yoga teacher, and there's can't be, as yoga has so many different schools."
That right there ought to be telling you something. If there are so many different schools, what makes any one of them any better than any of the others? If they are all equally valid, aren't they all also equally invalid?
Before you start going around calling me a Liar, I should like to point out that being called a Liar by an ignorant gullible moron may not have the effect that you wish.
Note that I have at no place advocated against Yoga; I gave an example where it is quite beneficial, with sufficient Medical supervision. Maybe Yoga can become mainstream; Physical Therapy itself was clouded until sufficient Scientific and Medical research proved its validity, although delusion and fraud abounds there still- Chiropractors are just as crackpot as Yogis, but they learned finally to keep their delusions to themselves.
Re:Not surprised at all by HiThere · 2017-06-21 12:07 · Score: 1

Your definition of fraud is clearly non-standard, which makes your comment difficult to understand. Based on your usage (in the above post) it appears to be approx. "People who assert something I don't accept".

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:Not surprised at all by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 15:10 · Score: 0

Stop weaseling around. I was quite clear in my definitions, my examples, and my reasoning. And you called me a liar. I asked for an example of an actual non-fraudulent Yogi; I even gave you a way out of it by introducing humor. Yet no Yogis actually Levitating or Teleporting presented.
You won't discuss or argue the points, and then you put words in my mouth. OK, one last time; usage of "Fraud" from the American Heritage Dictionary:
n. A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.
n. A piece of trickery; a trick.
n. One that defrauds; a cheat.
n. One who assumes a false pose; an impostor.
That pretty much sums up Yogis and any of their Metaphysical buggery. As for you, two words apply, either singly or together- "Equivocator" or "Prevaricator".
I am not a Liar, unless you have a definition of "Liar" that reasonable people are unaware of, but you are very much deceitful, a Humbug. An example of "People who brazenly assert something utterly preposterous."
Shut up and fuck off.
Re:Not surprised at all by david_thornley · 2017-06-22 07:36 · Score: 1

Fraud is normally defined as deliberate deceit. If you believe in something, and teach it, you're not a fraud. You may be very seriously wrong, and your teachings may be doing great harm, but you're not a fraud.
The few teachers I know personally believe what they say, although they acknowledge that some of it sounds dubious to your average Westerner. Unless you've actually investigated their claims, or at least can find negative results from serious investigation, you're calling them frauds for saying things they believe in and which you haven't bothered to falsify.
That doesn't make you a liar, but it does make you an asshole not worth listening to.

--
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes

Re:Sliding into barbarism by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 16:08 · Score: 0

It is just how with the utterance of 'yoga' you suddenly latch onto a cock and start sucking it with wild abandon. Science just can't explain your cock thirst!

Trolioliolo by SuperKendall · 2017-06-20 16:23 · Score: 0

I have literally never heard ANYONE say Yoga was evil, Christian or otherwise.

Go back to your Cave Of Supreme Ignorance and Bigotry, troll.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:Trolioliolo by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 17:15 · Score: 1

I don't know about evil, but I remember there being a big thing a while back about christians complaining that yoga was a religion, and so if they're not allowed to force kids to pray in school then schools aren't allowed to offer courses in yoga.
Re:Trolioliolo by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 21:48 · Score: 0

Hey there, I only have one data point to add... I work in IT with a very kind and sweet Indian chap that is a devout Christian. He has mentioned that yoga is a form of worshipping false gods as some of the poses refer to Hindu deities. Small sample size but you may have jumped the gun in your response.
Re:Trolioliolo by colinwb · 2017-06-20 22:23 · Score: 1

I don't recall seeing a "Google is your friend" comment recently, so searching on yoga+unchristian gives the following top two search items:
todayschristianwoman.com
telegraph.co.uk
A little futher down is item by a Christian criticising the first articlechristianitytoday.com, so yoga isn't universally condemned by Christians.
Addressing your precise point, searching on yoga+evil gives this 2011 news report (I use the term loosely - it's from the English Daily Mail): ... Father Amorth, a colourful and often outspoken personality, said:'Practising yoga brings evil as does reading Harry Potter. They may both seem innocuous but they both deal with magic and that leads to evil.' He added:'Yoga is the Devil's work. You thing [typo is in the online article] you are doing it for stretching your mind and body but it leads to Hinduism. All these oriental religions are based on the false belief of reincarnation.' ...
Re:Trolioliolo by Mr+D+from+63 · 2017-06-20 22:45 · Score: 1

He's just a troll making stuff up to get a response.

Yoga is a great workout, but in a Yoga class there is a pretty good chance you'll find a few folks that believe in crystal energy healing and life force energy.
Re:Trolioliolo by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2017-06-20 23:49 · Score: 1

Yoga IS evil. ThinkPads are way better!

--
Ezekiel 23:20
Re:Trolioliolo by enjar · 2017-06-21 01:08 · Score: 1
You need to look harder. Here are a few examples I got from "Christian yoga evil" and "christian no yoga school" in Google. There are plenty more examples. Of course, there is the "you can google an answer for anything", but this is certainly not the first time I've heard of Christianity having trouble with yoga. And of course, there are Christians who completely disagree and practice yoga regularly, as well as become certified and lead classes at their churches, with the consent of the church leadership. Definitely not trolling. References:
- Catholic Answers, "The Trouble With Yoga" https://www.catholic.com/magaz...
- Alternet, "Fear the Dark Art of Yoga! Why Conservative Christians Are Freaking Out After Yoga “Miracle”" http://www.alternet.org/belief...
- Christian Assemblies International, "The Spiritual Deception of Yoga", https://webcache.googleusercon...
- Christianity Today, "Should Yoga be Banned from Public Schools as a Religious Activity?", http://www.christianitytoday.c...
Re:Trolioliolo by squiggleslash · 2017-06-21 03:39 · Score: 1

Every year or two there's a story that comes out about some Christian group - admittedly usually more wacky than the Catholic Church - calling for a ban on the grounds its a rival religion, but it's pretty much always a bunch of nutcases, rather than mainstream Christian. That said, once in a while it's more mainstream.
You're both essentially wrong, the GP is technically correct (the best kind! Hahahahaohgod) in the sense that yes, some Christians do it. But he's misleading in the sense that he suggests this is mainstream, which it isn't.

--
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Re:Trolioliolo by angel'o'sphere · 2017-06-21 04:23 · Score: 1

'Life force energy', Chi in China, Ki in Japan, is an important concept in eastern medicine, philosophy and martial arts.
For those who practice it, there is no need for 'believe'. We simply feel it.
When I would do three techniques with you, I would do them first by putting my Ki at the wrong point, telling you the point. Then no Ki, then I put my Ki at the right point, telling you the point. The next three techniques I say nothing and you tell me what you feel. I guarantee you: you will feel exactly where I have put my Ki.
Or ask one to show you a Chi Gong breathing excercise ... it wont take more than 30 seconds for you to feel your own Ki. And you don't need to believe anything for that :)
Anyway, what you call a believe is a truth for me, as: The perception is always the truth in the eye of the perceptee.

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Trolioliolo by Mr+D+from+63 · 2017-06-21 05:16 · Score: 1

Sure, you are free to believe in whatever whatever you like, and even claim it to be your truth. As long as you are happy.
Re:Trolioliolo by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 07:13 · Score: 0

It could be the case. Yoga just like meditation has its roots in a number of traditions. And it, just like meditation, can be as religious as you allow it to get. Now, if some yogi out there is pushing a religion along side of the westernized practice of yoga then it could lead to questionable teachings.
I'm not a theist myself even though I do have a high tolerance for religion and especially eastern religions. I would have to agree that if having a "moment of silence" in the morning has some parents up in arms since it really has replaced in-school prayer that I'd also have to side with them that certain concepts in yoga also fringe on religious promotion. It's sad that it has come to this but my sense of fairness has to agree. Too often people mistake any presence of religion with an attempt to promote religion so it's a very gray area. In this polarized society I only see this problem getting worse with time.
Re:Trolioliolo by HiThere · 2017-06-21 07:17 · Score: 1

FWIW, it's one thing to feel the described sensation, and it's another to accept the explanation for what causes the sensation. I often have a great deal of problem with accepting the explanation. But it could be that the translator didn't properly understand the original work.

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:Trolioliolo by angel'o'sphere · 2017-06-21 08:16 · Score: 1

Same for you :D
Feeling my Ki does not make me happy, though. It is completely irrelevant.

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Trolioliolo by angel'o'sphere · 2017-06-21 08:24 · Score: 1

I guess no one really knows where the sensation comes from.
For doing martial arts or health exercises it is not really important anyway.
Bottom line Ki/Chi is an umbrella term. E.g. when in martial arts someone says "concentrate your Ki here" you simply can translate it to "put your focus there".
On the other hand it overlaps with "body exercises" that involve breathing and fluid movements. Here you easy get a "feeling for Ki" or life energy. But for what purpose? Well, a reasonable purpose is if you are freezing, have cold feet or have an injury e.g. You do the exercise to "wake the Ki" and then "you focus" on the cold part or injured part. Pain and cold is going away very quickly. Because the focus and the exercise changes your blood flow, so that more blood goes to the point in question. That is actually scientifically proven as you can see it easy on IR cameras. So: Ki is just blood focused to be at a/the special point ;D (or not?)

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Trolioliolo by Mr+D+from+63 · 2017-06-21 08:27 · Score: 1

It certainly seems that it is relevant to you in some manner, as you felt compelled to defend it.
Re:Trolioliolo by angel'o'sphere · 2017-06-21 20:32 · Score: 1

Of course it is relevant.
But I don't "defend" it. There is no need for it.
As I said: ask one to show you an exercise and you will "feel it" too.
But perhaps your religion does not allow you to train your body to perceive things you "believe" that they don't exist ;D

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Trolioliolo by Mr+D+from+63 · 2017-06-21 22:44 · Score: 1

Of course it is relevant. But I don't "defend" it. There is no need for it.
As I said: ask one to show you an exercise and you will "feel it" too. But perhaps your religion does not allow you to train your body to perceive things you "believe" that they don't exist ;D
Sorry, I am not religious. But I do respect those with religious beliefs, including vitalism. If people say they feel a god's presence, or life force energy, good for them. I try not to debate such things with those folks, so I'll stop here and wish you happiness.
Re:Trolioliolo by angel'o'sphere · 2017-06-22 01:00 · Score: 1

Would have been more interesting if you had tested it and told me you felt nothing :)
Because you would be the first then and I had a counterexample to the other people.

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Trolioliolo by david_thornley · 2017-06-22 07:26 · Score: 1

I treat everyone who calls for bans of rival religions as nutcases. It's simpler that way, and I haven't noticed a loss of usefulness in my judgment.

--
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Re:Trolioliolo by Mr+D+from+63 · 2017-06-22 11:00 · Score: 1

Its not like I've never exercised, it makes me feel great and there are lots of body chemistry reasons for that. But if you want someone to test your theory, please spell out the test criteria. Otherwise, if you just want to proselytize vitalism, I'll simply respond just as I would someone proselytizing a god based religious belief. Frankly, I don't care to debate your beliefs and wish you well with them, so I was going to just leave it alone. If you insist on pushing your beliefs, however, then please start with the scientific basis and hard evidence. And if you do, please know that the human mind can perceive things differently than they really are, and can fool itself into inaccurately assigning the source of its perceptions. A very strong influence on perception can be other people and what they profess, larger groups professing the same can even have a stronger influence.
Re:Trolioliolo by angel'o'sphere · 2017-06-25 02:15 · Score: 1

The test criteria is pretty simple.
You do a Qi Gong or Tai Chi exercise and feel the flow of Ki.
No idea what else you need/want.
If you are to lazy or feel to incompetent to judge (for a good/suitable teaching video) I would even go and google you a youtube video.
However it is hard to believe that you have no friend, coworker, acquaintance or relative that ever did/still does Yoga, Tai Chi or Qi Gong, Shiatsu or a martial art in which Ki/Chi plays a role: Aikido, Kung Fu, Karate etc. Everyone doing such a "sport" above should be able to show you a 30 seconds exercise.
Ki is not only an eastern concept. In Indian it is called Prana, but that is a slightly different variation (from Ki/Chi I mean), or Kundalini, which is a very specific manifestation, in (ancient) Greek it is called Pneuma (in our days translated as 'breath') in Hebrew it is called Ruach. The old nordic/germanic name is Megin. In polynesia it is called Mana, in the Caribs (and west Africa?) Mojo.
Bottom line it is no mythical energy anyway, it is just how the blood flow and partly muscle tension manifests itself as a 'feeling', which btw. can be clearly seen on thermal cameras :) Yes: there are scientific researches about what Ki is. But besides certain blood flows they don't find anything (special). Ever seen a Shaoling Monk threw a stitching needle through a glass panel? When they teach they use the term Chi/Qi. No one really understands until after three years of practicing he can throw the needle through a glass panel. Only leaving behind a very tiny hole and a few very tiny splinters of glass. On a thermal camera you see a 'pneumatic' shot of blood going from the center of the body into the throwing hand, faster than the arm is moving.

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Trolioliolo by Mr+D+from+63 · 2017-06-25 03:30 · Score: 1

"no mythical energy", but its only something you 'feel', then you just insult others instead of providing any scientific basis. Nothing you describe is anything but normal body chemistry on some mental need to explain it with vitalism.

On a thermal camera, you see thermal gradients produced by normal biological functions. Nothing more.

I exercise all the time. I just don't feel the need to attribute the results to anything but well understood biology.

Lots of 'ancient' societies have named gods and supernatural forces, that does not give them any legitimacy, but it does provide some people with a psychological 'fill in' for lack of scientific basis. I see that works for you. Very well, like I said, as long as it makes you happy.
Re:Trolioliolo by angel'o'sphere · 2017-06-25 04:00 · Score: 1

I did not insult you.
I exercise all the time. I just don't feel the need to attribute the results to anything but well understood biology.
Yeah, you push weights. Or run. What has that to do with Ki/Chi?
I told you several times to look a video of a Tai Chi or Chi Gong practitioner.
You don't want. So you are unscientific.
Lots of 'ancient' societies have named gods and supernatural forces, that does not give them any legitimacy, but it does provide some people with a psychological 'fill in' for lack of scientific basis.
I explained you in my last post in the last paragraph the scientific base. Probably you are to lazy to google, to confirm/check it.
Very well, like I said, as long as it makes you happy.
It does not make me happy. It makes me sad that you spent half an hour arguing with me instead of simply trying it.

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Trolioliolo by Mr+D+from+63 · 2017-06-25 05:14 · Score: 1

I explained you in my last post in the last paragraph the scientific base. .
You did nothing of the sort. Maybe you just don't understand what constitutes a scientific explanation or evidence, its certainly not because some person teaches it, or because ancient societies named it. You've provided ZERO. I can find videos of people preaching religion all day, that doesn't mean their gods are real. Sho me a physical experiment with measurement and also a scientific explanation for results which doesn't breakdown in to 'we simply don't understand' at its fundamental level, because that is same as any religion.

As for making you happy, although you protest it must fill a psychological need otherwise you would not argue for it so much when you have no scientific basis. You say it doesn't matter but it very clear does. Similarly some religious folks similarly say their beliefs are chosen not because it make them happy, they just accept them as truth.

So why do you feel so compelled to argue for vitalism when you have no scientific bases, evidence or other? Why is it so important to you to proselytize it? You seem to be at peace believing in it, so why not just be happy with that and let it be?
Re:Trolioliolo by angel'o'sphere · 2017-06-26 07:41 · Score: 1

I told you that there are scientific experiments which show that the so called "inner energy" is nothing more than an increased blood flow. Clearly visible on thermal cameras.
Perhaps you want to go back two posts ...
All that has nothing to do with the fact that you can do the experiments in minutes your self, but you refuse. So you are not scientific, but somehow scare.
As for making you happy, although you protest it must fill a psychological need otherwise you would not argue for it so much when you have no scientific basis
It never occurred you that I'm simply a stupid german and that we are known "to like to be right!"??
So why do you feel so compelled to argue for vitalism when you have no scientific bases, evidence or other?
I don't know what vitalism is. I talk about a thing which in my martial arts is called Ki, can clearly be precepted, and is called CHI and various other names in other cultures.
You don't need a scientific study to talk about your own perception and YOU don't need a scientific study to make a simple test and perceive the same. That is all. I'm not "arguing" about Ki/Chi/Qi or what ever. I'm simply surprised that you don't want to make an experiment. And I'm insulted that you treat me like a wacko ;D So in other words: I argue about your reluctancy to do an experiment that would change your Weltbild, but is completely unimportant for the course of your life and for mine.
It is more or less like suggestion: "play that computer game! I'm sure you will like it!" and I give you the CD and you never try it. Completely irrelevant for your or my live, but a bit disappointing if you were my friend.

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Trolioliolo by Mr+D+from+63 · 2017-06-26 14:29 · Score: 1

... scientific experiments which show that the so called "inner energy" is nothing more than an increased blood flow. Clearly visible on thermal cameras..
So, in your words, there was nothing observed other that increased blood flow, which obviously is going to happen when one exercises and there is no 'inner energy'. Why don't you just call it increased blood flow instead of Ki?
Re:Trolioliolo by angel'o'sphere · 2017-06-30 09:12 · Score: 1

Because at the time the people discovered that effect, they used a word from their language. In Japanese that is Ki, in Chinese it is Qi.
If you had tried to pay attention instead of putting me into the "wacko corner" that would have been obvious 3, 4 or 5 posts back.
On the other hand, I'm not convinced that it is only increased blood flow :D but that is what the "scientists" saw.

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Trolioliolo by Mr+D+from+63 · 2017-07-02 11:50 · Score: 1

Because at the time the people discovered that effect, they used a word from their language. In Japanese that is Ki, in Chinese it is Qi.
If you had tried to pay attention instead of putting me into the "wacko corner" that would have been obvious 3, 4 or 5 posts back.
On the other hand, I'm not convinced that it is only increased blood flow :D but that is what the "scientists" saw.
You are the one the called it 'life force energy', then went about giving it some sort of context by talking about ancient civilizations beliefs. But blood flow is nothing of the sort. Don't blame me for the path you chose to walk, you posted that.....and your last sentence pretty much puts you where I thought you were.
Re:Trolioliolo by angel'o'sphere · 2017-07-03 04:44 · Score: 1

Life forrce energy is the lose translation for Ki or Qi.
And it is a concept in basically all traditional healing methods (world wide), so I would not dismiss it as 'fantasie'.

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Trolioliolo by Mr+D+from+63 · 2017-07-03 06:15 · Score: 1

Life forrce energy is the lose translation for Ki or Qi. And it is a concept in basically all traditional healing methods (world wide), so I would not dismiss it as 'fantasie'.
So, we are back where we started. If you are OK with that belief, then fine. Don't try to proselytize it to me with no scientific explanation. Praying is also a traditional healing method.
Re:Trolioliolo by angel'o'sphere · 2017-07-04 22:48 · Score: 1

So, we are back where we started.
Don't know where we actually started :D
Don't try to proselytize it to me with no scientific explanation.
Why do you need a "scientific explanation" for a "sensation" you never had because you are to lazy to do a simple Chi Gong exercise?
Why are you not making such an exercise and then try to find a scientific way to "measure" its effect? See below (here).
You are dismissing things everyone can feel ... that is completely unscientific.
Praying is also a traditional healing method.
It might have an placebo effect.
But I don't know about a "healing method" where praying is involved. Do you?
Here:
I cooked some nice food, it smells awful (e.g. kidneys, they always smell so bad in the kitchen, I really go outside)
Everyone knows that good made kidneys are actually extremely tasty.
But: you don't want to try them, however you where not even in the kitchen and don't know about the smell.
You are simply convinces kidneys don't taste, you probably are convinced kidneys don't even exist.
Or in the Ki/Qi thingy: you have stupid religion that forbids you to do scientific experiments before the scientists has declared/explained to you how it works.
In other words: you never ever will "discover" something :D because there is not already a scientific explanation for it.

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Trolioliolo by Mr+D+from+63 · 2017-07-05 09:23 · Score: 1

We started with your claims of a 'life force energy', one that has no more evidence for it than a supernatural being. You ended there with no evidence.

If your life energy has a placebo healing effect,as you suggest, than its all in your mind and its no different than praying. That example you provided is more evidence that it does not exist. Not a smart move.

There rest of your post is bullshit drivel. Same crap could be said for religious beliefs... you sound just like a preacher talking about 'discovering the truth'. Please stop because I really don't have any respect for those that insist on proselytizing such beliefs. In fact, I think people who so easily believe in unknown forces that have no scientific basis or evidence are quite shallow minded and don't have the capacity to be objective. Now, those that have such beliefs but understand why others might not want to receive proselytization of them have my respect. At least they can see things objectively. You don't appear to be able to put aside your need to insist this life force energy is real in the absence of you ability to provide even a tiny bit of evidence of it. Why is it so important to you that others belief in this life force energy?

Why is it any different than me calling the relaxed feeling I get after I fart the result of mystical force? I think my farts are life giving. No scientific evidence, but hey if you deny it you'll never know the truth.
Re:Trolioliolo by angel'o'sphere · 2017-07-05 09:33 · Score: 1

We started with your claims of a 'life force energy', one that has no more evidence for it than a supernatural being. You ended there with no evidence.
I made no claims like that.
You probabky got side tracked in that threat and answered to the wrong person.
That would explain the strange circles our discussion/conversation is making, at least.

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Trolioliolo by Mr+D+from+63 · 2017-07-05 09:52 · Score: 1

We started with your claims of a 'life force energy', one that has no more evidence for it than a supernatural being. You ended there with no evidence. I made no claims like that. You probabky got side tracked in that threat and answered to the wrong person. That would explain the strange circles our discussion/conversation is making, at least.
So are such a sack of you know what. You can't even admit to what you posted., Here are YOUR words.

'Life force energy', Chi in China, Ki in Japan, is an important concept in eastern medicine, philosophy and martial arts. For those who practice it, there is no need for 'believe'. We simply feel it.
I suppose you'll weasel around that fact... don't bother you are a worthless troll and you have just proven that beyond doubt.

Sitting all day long is bad for you... news at 11 by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 16:29 · Score: 1

Too many people are getting into a car, driving to work, sitting at a desk, going home and sitting in front of the computer or tv and then wondering why they have back pain... Spread the word, you have got to stretch and exercise most days.

No shit. by Qbertino · 2017-06-20 16:42 · Score: 4, Informative

This sounds like something straight from the mouth of Captain Obvious.

Truth be told, Yoga is about as "full body workout" as it gets.

If you think Yoga is just some spiritual foo-foo wah-wah shit and all the health benefits are placebo, you are soooo wrong. Yes, the fortune-cookie wisdoms Yoga instructors dish out at the end of a workout when everybody is chilling and meditating can be flat-out cringe-worthy and inscence and sitar music (or whatever that string-instrument is called) isn't everybody's thing, but the 90 minutes that went before that are enough to put any regular iron-pumper or cross-fit person into gasp and sweat mode. Taking the positions slowly and elegantly ("Ansanas" in Yogaspeak) and holding them is really hard and requires a lot of strength and coordination and at times goes beyond pro level gymnastics.

Oh, and the countless chicks that do it are often pretty hot. And I mean that in more ways than one. :-) ... Which reminds me that I actually just had an excessive flirt (and some very nice dances) with a cute Yoga instructor this weekend ...

So, yes, there are a lot of benefits to doing Yoga, including those of regular physical health, strength and flexibility at the same time. That Yoga is about as good as it gets when treating muscular deficiencies in your back is something well established.

--
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca

Re:No shit. by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 18:28 · Score: 0

Your post is bullshit because:
1) Muscles adapt to stress. You have to overload them more and more. It only takes a few months of doing bodyweight exercises before you really aren't going to build any more strength from them, just muscular endurance. Eventually you need progressively heavier weights if you want to get stronger.
2) Women do yoga, but I really yoga class is just about the last place you're going to talk to or flirt with a girl. People come to the studio to do their workout and then they leave, there's no down-time to chat and flirt.
Re:No shit. by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 22:38 · Score: 1

You don't seem to know much about health or women.
Re:No shit. by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 01:21 · Score: 0

2) Women do yoga, but I really yoga class is just about the last place you're going to talk to or flirt with a girl. People come to the studio to do their workout and then they leave, there's no down-time to chat and flirt.
1) I was flirting with her at a social dancing weekend (Tango) and not in Yoga class.
2) I was flirting with her while dancing, while chatting and while doing deep philosophy. ... And she was flirting with me - despite having a lover already.
3) She`s a Yoga instructor, so she`d most likely be my teacher if we do Yoga together.
4) As for no down time to flirt with women: I`d say the 15 to 20 something women I danced with for 2.5 nights and 2 days would probably beg to differ. That includes the Tango & Salsa chick that looked and felt like a cross-breed between a p0rnstar, olympic gymnast and a south-european supermodel and the cute girlfriend of a very good Tango friend who started crying in my arms during a particularly extatic tanda (set of tangosongs of similar stile). ... And the Yoga chick.
Bottom line: Get out, do some excersize, get something fashionable to wear, read this book, learn Tango or Salsa and go and meet and f*ck some decent chicas. Changes your life and your perspective on women so much you won`t believe it and think you`ve landed on a different planet where insecure ladies just want some pleasure with a guy that isn`t a total douche. (Hint: They paint their faces every day to be more beautiful - what does that tell you when you think about it for a minute?)
That`s some free life changing advice from your old slashdot pal Qbertino. (Posting anonymously from a public Chromebook.) Enjoy.
My two cents.
Re:No shit. by EvilAlphonso · 2017-06-21 06:43 · Score: 1

Your post is bullshit because:
1) Muscles adapt to stress. You have to overload them more and more. It only takes a few months of doing bodyweight exercises before you really aren't going to build any more strength from them, just muscular endurance. Eventually you need progressively heavier weights if you want to get stronger.
You may have heard of this thing called leverage... which tends to increase the strength required by putting your body at a disadvantage...
Take push-ups, for example: incline push-ups (hands higher than feet), to horizontal push-ups, to decline push-ups (feet higher than hands), to hand-stand push-ups. You can throw ring-variations in there for extra difficulty, because of the stabilization required. Or you can go pseudo-planche push-ups, towards full planche push-ups, fingertips full planche push-ups...
Re:No shit. by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-22 22:45 · Score: 0

What is the second kind of "hot"?

king of the hill did it! by Joe_Dragon · 2017-06-20 17:04 · Score: 0

king of the hill did it!

Re:king of the hill did it! by modi123 · 2017-06-21 08:42 · Score: 1

Agreed. I was going to post that I knew this back in the day from Hank Hill.

and yet... by wolfgang_spangler · 2017-06-20 17:09 · Score: 1

neither works anywhere near as good as progressively loading a barbell with weights and engaging in a strength based training routine consisting of squats, deadlifts, and presses.

Re: and yet... by cyber-vandal · 2017-06-20 17:35 · Score: 2

Or you could injure yourself further
Re:and yet... by TechyImmigrant · 2017-06-20 18:31 · Score: 1

neither works anywhere near as good as progressively loading a barbell with weights and engaging in a strength based training routine consisting of squats, deadlifts, and presses.
This. I'm generally a slob, but if I start getting back pains or other physical issues, I start with the barbells and squats and avoiding the elevator and within a couple of weeks, it's all fixed. If I was into it, I'd do it all the time, but I'm not.

--
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Re:and yet... by angel'o'sphere · 2017-06-20 20:17 · Score: 1

Says the guy who has no clue how the body works ...

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:and yet... by peragrin · 2017-06-20 21:43 · Score: 1

For back issues build core muscles. Most people with back issues have core muscles that need more exercise. Crunches etc also people really need to do daily stretching were they tighten and relax those core muscles.

--
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
Re:and yet... by PoopJuggler · 2017-06-20 23:28 · Score: 1

Can't tell if serious...
Re:and yet... by Dixie_Flatline · 2017-06-21 03:49 · Score: 1

Tell that to people that are learning to walk again after being in a car accident or some other similarly traumatic incident. Some of the people that physiotherapists help are wheelchair bound before they get into therapy. Don't be an idiot.
Re:and yet... by PaulRivers10 · 2017-06-21 06:06 · Score: 1

Everyone I know (including myself) who tried barbell training with squats, deadlifts, and presses seriously injure themselves doing it. My coworker didn't have back pain before doing squats, now he does. No thanks.
Re:and yet... by PaulRivers10 · 2017-06-21 06:08 · Score: 1

Both of these things are bad advice. It's true about core muscles but back pain also involves the glutes, and other overly tight and strong muscles that need to be relaxed. A lot of people can't train their core muscles because other muscle groups are tight and pulling things out of place keeping the core muscles from engaging. Crunches are an absolutely terrible exercise for core strength. They only work the least important core muscle, and making that muscle overly strong while neglecting the other core muscles causes disfunction and issues.
Re:and yet... by Zero__Kelvin · 2017-06-21 08:47 · Score: 1

You have no idea what you are talking about. Part of the problem is that you, like most people posting, don't know what Yoga is and have never done it, but feel qualified to post your ridiculous claims anyway. The people saying Yoga is bending and stretching have no concept of what Yoda is either.

There are numerous branches of Yoga, and the branch everyone is referring to, Hatha, is specifically intended to prepare the body for meditation. Yes there is bending and stretching, but much more importantly there is mindfullness, and this is where the difference between Yoga and physical therapy couldn't be more great.

Yoga, practiced correctly, involves meditation ... one focuses the mind on the body and on breathing. This causes a radical change. It is fairly well understood by science now, not "voodoo" at all. See also "Buddha's Brain", which doesn't mention Yoga, but instead focuses (excuse the pun) on mindfulness and the positive effects it has on the brain.

Furthermore, true practitioners of Yoga eat healthily, whereas those going to PT often don't. There are myriad other advantages to Yoga, but in the end hot babes in tight spandex is just a minimal perk in comparison.

If you don't believe me that there is a lot to Yoga, you could always do the geek thing and learn something.

--
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Re: and yet... by Zero__Kelvin · 2017-06-21 08:50 · Score: 1

No, you couldn't. Not if you do Yoga correctly. Emphasis is on careful attention to the body and what it tells you, and there is never any encouragement to push beyond what is good for your body in true Yoga. Indeed, quite the opposite. You carefully and gently move, never pushing beyond your own limitations or you are doing it wrong.

--
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Re: and yet... by david_thornley · 2017-06-22 07:40 · Score: 1

I think cyber-vandal was referring to weight training, which is dangerous if you don't do it right. (That's why I preferred the exercise machines in the gym to the free weights: it was a lot easier to use the machines properly, even if all they were doing was getting me to lift weights with various muscles).

--
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Re:and yet... by david_thornley · 2017-06-22 07:44 · Score: 1

I started taking a meditation class at a place that teaches yoga, and I found that it made me a lot better at noticing things. It wasn't a physical change, but it reminded me of when I was younger and I'd need a new prescription and how the world looked when I got my new glasses. I'm also feeling a little calmer when things aren't going the way I want. So far, disregarding all philosophy, it's well worth my time and money.

--
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Re: and yet... by Zero__Kelvin · 2017-06-22 08:35 · Score: 1

Yes. Looking at it again I can see you are correct.

--
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Re:and yet... by Zero__Kelvin · 2017-06-22 08:36 · Score: 1

Exactly. It makes you more mindful (i.e. awareness of the present moment.) This is a scientifically proven fact.

--
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun

Ducks? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 17:13 · Score: 0

Quacks?

Why do most SD stories have some sort of commercial interest at their core?

FOLLOW THE MONEY!

Access denied by thelexx · 2017-06-20 17:15 · Score: 1

Even if it cured cancer and I had it, my wife would likely demand to escort me to and from a yoga studio.

--
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999

Re:Access denied by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 20:01 · Score: 0

methinks you need to upgrade your wife, your current version is broken. wife 2.0 encourages me to go to yoga with her by simply putting on yoga pants. the next thing i know i'm in a room full of them. can't go wrong there

Good if customized to the patient by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 17:22 · Score: 4, Informative

"The once-a-week yoga classes in the study were designed specifically for back-pain patients"

I'm compelled to stress the importance of this and of not doing exercises that lastingly increase pain. Many people with back pain who go to normal yoga classes end up being sore from pain instead of muscle soreness after since the programs are typically not customized to their needs/abilities.

Re:Good if customized to the patient by omfglearntoplay · 2017-06-21 02:10 · Score: 1

Good eye catching that. Surely some injuries require avoidance of certain stretches or exercises.
Some tips for somebody with back pain reading this: plain old walking and wearing non-tight pants helps a lot with back pain. Comfortable stretching and isometric exercises are good. As you get less pain and more strength or endurance, I would recommend progressing to longer workouts or more activity. But use common sense and don't overdo anything that causes more pain to appear the next day.
Re:Good if customized to the patient by Zero__Kelvin · 2017-06-21 08:54 · Score: 1

You don't have to stress it. That is a core component of Yoga. Those who are getting the pain aren't going to Yoga practitioners, they are going to Gyms where it is de riguer to capitalize on the idea of Yoga, for a profit, but really they don't do actual Yoga.

--
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun

wait... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 18:25 · Score: 0

I thought yoga was cultural appropriation, though. So it's okay now, or... ?

I have a suggestion by slashmydots · 2017-06-20 19:03 · Score: 3, Interesting

They should take away all the "breathing in energy" bullshit and find out what the movements are doing in hard, physical science and then copy it...wait that would just be physical therapy actually. What a coincidence.

Re:I have a suggestion by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 01:57 · Score: 0

They should take away all the "breathing in energy" bullshit and find out what the movements are doing in hard, physical science and then copy it...wait that would just be physical therapy actually. What a coincidence.
A single physical therapy session can often be 2-3x the cost of a yoga session, so I'll gladly put up with the "breathing in energy" bullshit to save hundreds a year.
Greed? In the medical industry? Gee, what a coincidence.
Re:I have a suggestion by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 03:14 · Score: 0

Lol, you know breath can affect your mood, body temp, and a whole host of other things right? Don't believe me? Try hyperventilating for a few minutes! Yes, some yoga classes go off the deep end with pseudo-spiritual mumbo-jumbo but those kinds of people are in every field including science and medicine. Just avoid the hippie granola instructors. Just because yoga was developed a long time ago by people without modern technology doesn't mean there aren't valid points that have been misunderstood / mistranslated. Perhaps the breath energy thing is just fine tuning your cellular respiration cycle and they didn't have the words for it when yoga was invented. I can't respect the attitude that just because it's modern means it's better.
Re:I have a suggestion by Rick+Schumann · 2017-06-21 04:21 · Score: 1

Like me, you're probably someone who enjoys exercise and doesn't need a carrot on the end of a stick to persuade you to do it at all in the first place, but remember that you and I are outliers, the average person would rather do anything other than exercise, up to and including die young of horrible diseases, because it's 'unpleasant'. I, too, think there's a lot of 'goofy woo-woo' stuff involved with yoga, that mainly makes it take twice as long as it needs to really take to do, but it seems to me that if you can get the average, exercise-hating person to buy into that 'goofy woo-woo pseudo-spiritual' stuff that is integrated into yoga, then it might just distract them (and/or fool them) enough that they won't notice that they're doing actual work, and keep doing it. Really, honestly, seriously, if I could find a way to get 100% of people to exercise willingly and regularly, I'd be a multi-billonaire from the idea.
Re:I have a suggestion by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 07:24 · Score: 0

Yeah, because there have never been any studies to show that breathing exercises ever have any positive effects...
Maybe you should take away your naive visions of what yoga is just because of something you seen on some episode of I Love Lucy from the 1960s...
Re:I have a suggestion by PJ6 · 2017-06-21 14:19 · Score: 1

They should take away all the "breathing in energy" bullshit and find out what the movements are doing in hard, physical science and then copy it...wait that would just be physical therapy actually. What a coincidence.
Breathing correctly is the most important part of yoga, and the reasons for this are well-known to the medical community. You could research the topic, or just do it and see for yourself why it's obviously true.

Movement is actually very complicated. Moving say, just your arm from point a to point b in a given position, isn't simple at all. We're not robots. There's almost an infinite number of internal variations available to any given movement, and some of that variation is even linked to your autonomic system. If you practice yoga long enough to "get" it, you'll feel parts of your brain grow, the ones that govern movement and proprioception. This gain in control and awareness, which is one of the many things breathing helps with, can be even more important than the gains you get in strength and flexibility. For rehab (and here, I'm talking from experience) yoga can be vastly superior to "standard" physical therapy. And breathing is very much the centerpiece of successful yoga practice.

Hatha Yoga by eulernet · 2017-06-20 19:23 · Score: 1

What is called "Yoga" in the US is in fact "Hatha Yoga", as mentioned onto the wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Hatha Yoga's goal is to increase longevity and improve health, so it's no surprise that it works for back pain.

Personally, I practice yoga, but not hatha yoga, so it always bothers me when these two are mixed up.

Re:Hatha Yoga by angel'o'sphere · 2017-06-20 20:18 · Score: 1

There are probably hundreds of Yoga "Styles".
Just find one that interests you most.

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Hatha Yoga by houghi · 2017-06-20 21:41 · Score: 1

I like the one where I sit behind a screen for hours on end.

--
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Re:Hatha Yoga by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 22:14 · Score: 0

Good thing they b\get mixed up, lookslike some woo to me
Re:Hatha Yoga by angel'o'sphere · 2017-06-21 02:26 · Score: 1

I prefer martial arts an tantra over yoga :)
I sit already 8-10h behind a screen when I'm working ...

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.

Interesting by williamreview1 · 2017-06-20 20:11 · Score: 2

Just in time when I and my wife wanted to do some yoga for our better health http://williamreview.com/im-vi...

--
http://williamreview.com/

The conclusions seem fine, but the discussion not by TimothyHollins · 2017-06-20 20:56 · Score: 2

All of this sounds about right.

In fact, if you take a hindu to a physical therapy program and ask him what he just did, he'll say 'yoga'. If you take a physiotherapist to a yoga session and ask her what she just did, she'll say 'physical therapy' (assuming you avoid the weird stoner-stuff about energy and one-with-the-universe cringe that comes after). I've been doing physical therapy for quite a while now (back problems), and I can't see any difference between physical therapy, stretching, and yoga. They all revolve around moderate exertion of muscle groups that we don't normally exercise in our day-to-day lives.

Of course, there is also the usual virtue signalling bullshit included here.

That's important, say the researchers, because chronic back pain -- which affects about 10% of U.S. adults -- has a greater impact on minorities and people of lower socioeconomic status.

I would like to see the study that concludes that my life is 'more' fine with backpain than anyone else's. Is it less important to be able to play with your kids if you aren't the appropriate minority? Do you not benefit from long walks if you are rich? Are active hobbies only relevant if they prevent you from a life of crime?

If there isn't a study on this, then these researchers are regurgitating intellectually dishonest narratives (something which is usually consigned to the social "sciences"). I really hope this isn't part of a trend, since internal medicine is a field that must be harshly structured around logical thought and cold hard data.

Re:The conclusions seem fine, but the discussion n by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 22:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

If you're rich you won't have to stack shelves at walmart with a bad back.

Re:Sliding into barbarism by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 22:54 · Score: 0

"elicit" you half-wit. When trying to be Jordan Peterson, at least pretend you're literate.

Re:Sliding into barbarism by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 23:01 · Score: 0

Just a lonely, butthurt rich? Go buy yourself some sex & candies, all will be well.

Re:The conclusions seem fine, but the discussion n by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 23:08 · Score: 0

Came here to say that. In addition , their job may be more physical and they may have an employer who is less sympathetic to time off work. In fact, the job may have caused it.

A Hackers approach to Back Pain.... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 23:12 · Score: 0

So I've had some problems with back pain over the years. It starts in the middle of my back, shoots down my legs, just amazingly painful and debilitating. Can't walk. Can't stand up.

Being an American, my first impulse was to see doctors and start taking drugs.

Being a Geek, that's Geek not Greek, my first impulse is to start changing my environment, see what helps and what hurts, hacking my body so to speak.

Anyway, my back pain seems to correlate with sleeping in very slightly different postures on an older mattress, with a sag where I'm sleeping. Apparently my back is not supposed to bend that way. It's not a very big or sudden sag in the mattress, but it has a huge & very painful effect.

I found if I slept on my back on a solid really hard surface, think hardwood floor or solid rock, my back pain went away almost immediately and the next day I was fine.

Weird, but there you have it. Maybe we weren't designed for sleeping on these ultra soft memory-foam pillow-topped mattresses.

Of course, this is just one case. There are many different causes of back pain. Still, it's an easy fix to try...

And how are they going to treat back pain... by ctrl-alt-canc · 2017-06-20 23:18 · Score: 1

...caused by yoga lessons ?

Re:The conclusions seem fine, but the discussion n by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-20 23:58 · Score: 0

Oh but I am considered rich... definitely not poor, but not wealthy. Auto accident a few years back, broken neck, and lower back. Surgery to fix, or stabilize my spine have left me in constant pain for the last 10 years. First came the physical therapists, then the yoga, then the mindfullness and psychological approaches, then came the doctors with their needles, finally a pain management doctor that did not believe in any of those, but a combination of those plus a realistic amount of medication. This has allowed me to work, and play, and be somewhat active. I have worked two jobs at a time since getting things under control, and have worked stacking shelves, as well as in server farms, offices, and laboratories. I am a bioinformatics and statistics specialist, and using 10% so recklessly, and with an ill defined demographic as poor, is not good science. I agree with the op who said that this is the kind of "science sell" usually seen in the soft sciences. No need for a sappy narrative if data backs you up. Present, prove, conclude.

Lets keep science safe for scientists, and lets keep pain relief safe and available for those of us that need to work, that want to work, and that can work when we are allowed access to medication, therapies, and doctors that take a whole body approach to pain management. By this, I mean, Yoga, while great exercise, and a wonderful way to meet women, is not one part of the solution, it is an adjunct therapy that should also include psychology and medication (as needed and assessed on a case by case basis).

Thank you for listening, tune in later when /. debates the effectiveness of enemas on diabetes.

Re:The conclusions seem fine, but the discussion n by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 00:08 · Score: 1

Manual labor reference. The home care worker at minimum wage has to lift patients all day, the slightly overweight hedge funder at 500k/yr watches while the movers shift the couch up the stairs.

wait no "engineer" nonsense yet? SAD by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 00:11 · Score: 1

Come on slashdot, this is where we swamp the thread with indignant rants about double blind tests, or how much nonsense meditation or Hindi music is. Can we get to the racist acupuncture references please?

So it's a PT session with music and bullshit by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 00:18 · Score: 0

Basically,
You're saying it's a PT session that has some yoga moves that are identified as not dangerous. Color me surpised.

I can vouch for this. by polyp2000 · 2017-06-21 01:13 · Score: 1

After suffering from lower back pain and sciatica for quite some time and even having a nerve block treatment. I've done yoga practice with my partner (recently qualified yoga teacher) she tailored sessions to work on my lower back . Now I have much better posture and body awareness, my back pain has not returned since. I cannot recommend yoga highly enough. My back issues were probably caused by my job Software Engineer where I sit on my arse all day tapping away at a keyboard!

--
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp

It's all about the asshole by Stele · 2017-06-21 01:19 · Score: 1

Obligatory GTAV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ-wwqOhb3U

Its called "stretch exercises" by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 01:34 · Score: 0

& yeah it works like a charm for getting rid of back pain. Just 4 or 5 minutes of stretching a day does the trick... no magic energy required.

Unblinded by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 01:47 · Score: 0

An a single unblinded study is basically meaningless. Even a single properly blinded study only constitutes preliminary evidence. It's not clear it if the researches were blinded (didn't know what therapy the participants received when collecting pain scores, etc...). It is actually possible to blind the participants to some degree. You can do things like have them engage in "sham" yoga vs "real" yoga. The media needs to get its head out of its ass and start reporting science news more accurately. This absolutely does not show that "Yoga Works as Well as Physical Therapy for Back Pain". It shows that Yoga might be effective, but needs replication and follow-up reserach

It's True by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 01:55 · Score: 0

The main reason I do Yoga is because of lingering back problems I've had for many years.

Yoga won't completely get rid of the problems, but I don't wake up in the morning with back pain, and have more strength and flexibility to live my life without back pain.

Kicks Ass! by sycodon · 2017-06-21 02:20 · Score: 1

I've done Yoga twice. It kicked by ass both times.

Think of it as low level gymnastics. I mean the kind where you get on those rings and slowly go from vertical to horizontal o vertical again.

Crazy shit.

--
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.

Re:The conclusions seem fine, but the discussion n by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 03:15 · Score: 0

Auto accident a few years back, broken neck, and lower back.

So, you're the exception to the rule...

I have worked two jobs at a time since getting things under control, and have worked stacking shelves, as well as in server farms, offices, and laboratories.

I'm sorry to hear that, but a person who is poor might work two jobs while not getting things under control because any attempt to do that would likely result in them starving or being evicted for failure to pay the rent. That's the part of "harder hit", even though it definitely sounds like your actual condition is a good bit worse than average.

I am a bioinformatics and statistics specialist, and using 10% so recklessly, and with an ill defined demographic as poor, is not good science. I agree with the op who said that this is the kind of "science sell" usually seen in the soft sciences.

On the one hand, I definitely agree. There's stats we're taught in school from the '60s that we still pretend as relevant today.

No need for a sappy narrative if data backs you up. Present, prove, conclude.

Which leads to the other hand: we can only imagine that hard manual labor and being poor are heavily related, so it's very hard to prove cause and effect. Hence, we don't have the data that being poor means hard manual labor. We also don't know if chronic back pain is more genetic and leads to being poor in some fashion: lower intelligence leads to more manual labor jobs or lower back pain just is and manual labor exacerbates it.

I can only speak from personal experience. I make within 150% of the Federal Poverty Line but am single and live in cheap, rural America. I actually avoid higher paying work because at the place I work precisely because of the pretty substantial overtime (usually a few months out of the year people work at least 8 hours/day the whole month). On the other hand, most of that work is less physically intensive. Having said that, I do have mine own chronic back pain and really don't do anything about it but regularly take pain medicine.

Really, no matter how you spin it, you can't take something like "10% suffer from chronic pain" and speak meaningful about it, even if you have good statistics. The point of journalism is, in part, to humanize the data. That can be done by examples, but sadly it's too often just done with lumping a lot of stereotypes and old population stats. Feel free to complain about it, but I don't know of a good alternative without just fully throwing out any mention of people.

Not just Yoga by feetandspine · 2017-06-21 03:47 · Score: 1

Proper posture, using proper ergonomic equipment at work and all that can help relieve or avoid altogether backpain. We have a whole section on our blog about backpain - https://www.feetandspine.com/b...

Re:The conclusions seem fine, but the discussion n by alleycat0 · 2017-06-21 04:08 · Score: 1

I wonder if "greater impact" is meant to be interpreted quantitatively, rather than qualitatively?

--
I am not a number - I am a free man!

Re:Sliding into barbarism by Anonymous Coward · 2017-06-21 04:15 · Score: 0

It never ceases to amaze me how someone can survive all the way to adulthood yet still be so self-conscious and insecure that they have to have an attitude like this, which ironically makes them look at least as foolish as they believe doing something like yoga would. You're the same kind of person who would rather wear normal street clothes to ride a bike even when it's 100+ degrees out, and get heat stroke and saddle sores, rather than wear cycling-appropriate clothing and be comfortable, cool, and not cause damage to yourself. That's assuming you'd even ride a bike, which you probably won't, because you're so insecure that you can't bear the thought that someone might think you look silly being an adult and riding a bike. Seriously, why can't people like you grow the hell up already? You're probably over 40 and sound like you're 12 and so worried what the Cool Kids on your street will say about you. Pathetic!

Not surprising.. by xanadu113 · 2017-06-21 04:22 · Score: 1

Not surprising, they use yoga exercises IN physical therapy. It's the same mechanics involved.

--
-Myke

Maybe you should learn to read by SuperKendall · 2017-06-21 04:25 · Score: 1

First link:

"The use of yoga as a spiritual path is highly problematic."

Maybe you need to spend a little time at the dictionary if you equate "highly problematic as a spiritual path" (they had no problems with the physical effects) to raw baby-killing evil.

The second link is basically trolling also. I didn't bother to read the rest because why bother and it's apparent from the titles they have the same distance from "evil".

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:Maybe you should learn to read by enjar · 2017-06-21 04:37 · Score: 1

You should have moved onto the third, then. Its conclusion is as follows:

Yoga is not just a harmless physical exercise, it opens the door to demonic control. On which side do you ultimately want to stand? The devil’s or Christ’s? The consequences are more serious than you might realise.
I'd say in terms of "trolling" this is pretty weak "trolling". There are references out there to Christians who have varying degrees of problems with it. It's certainly not made up and there is certainly evidence from many sources that some Christians have problems with it. Many don't, of course. But it sure isn't "trolling", which is defined as "make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them" ...

not completely true by smithcl8 · 2017-06-21 05:14 · Score: 1

Obviously, PTs use the same exercises that the personal trainers and yoga instructors do. There are only so many exercises out there. If you have a problem specifically in one part of your body, though, going to yoga will not fix your problem as effectively as a specifically-designed routine from a PT. Once you are back on your feet (or hand or arm or whatever), you should hit a gym and go for a full-body style workout of some sort. Yoga is one such choice. If you want to lose some weight, do something more cardio-based like kickboxing or something. All exercise is good, as long as you keep with it and make sure you work your whole body.

Can we get insurance to pay for it? by lpq · 2017-06-22 05:25 · Score: 1

Given the high price of good yoga classes, can we get insurance to pay for it. How about time-off 3x/week to goto yoga class?

Versus... getting higher monetary payments for "physical therapy" &
time-off to go to doctors' visits and therapy?

Which is easier for the employee?

Re:Can we get insurance to pay for it? by david_thornley · 2017-06-22 07:53 · Score: 1

Depends on the employee, employer, and insurance plan, I guess. The yoga might be cheaper than the deductible for physical therapy, for example.
I also have to go through medical channels for physical therapy. I can sign up for a yoga class at a place three blocks from my home without justifying anything and without paying all that much.

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"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes

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Study Finds Yoga Works As Well As Physical Therapy For Back Pain (time.com)

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