Study Finds Yoga Works As Well As Physical Therapy For Back Pain (time.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from TIME: Another study is touting the benefits of yoga -- this time, for people with back problems. The new research put yoga head-to-head against physical therapy and found the two were equally good at restoring function and reducing the need for pain medication over time. In the new study, published in Annals of Internal Medicine, a group of 320 people did 12 weeks of yoga or physical therapy, or they simply received a book and newsletters about coping with back pain. People in the active treatment groups reported that their pain was less intense than it was at the start of the study and that they were able to physically move more. Some were also able to reduce, or even stop, their pain medications. Those improvements stuck around for a full year after the study was over. This research is unique because the people in the study were racially diverse, and most were from low-income families. Many had pre-existing medical conditions. That's important, say the researchers, because chronic back pain -- which affects about 10% of U.S. adults -- has a greater impact on minorities and people of lower socioeconomic status.

Comments

same difference

[networkzombie]

Isn't yoga physical therapy? Except for the therapist / yoga guru, they seem the same.

Re:same difference

[ShanghaiBill]

Isn't yoga physical therapy? Except for the therapist / yoga guru, they seem the same.

Pretty much. My wife has a back injury and tried both yoga and physical therapy. The yoga was stretching and exercises. The physical therapy was stretching and exercises. The only difference was that PT cost money, while she could learn yoga for free from Youtube videos.

Re:same difference

[Anonymous Coward]

And likewise you can get many physical therapy exercises for free online too. But often a bit of personalization to your problem and feedback on your form can go a long way to making sure you learn the right way of doing things and lower risk of injuring yourself in the long run. In that case, physical therapy is free for many insurance programs while yoga is not.

Re:same difference

[AmiMoJo]

The difference between physical therapy and yoga is not the exercises. It's that a physical therapist with some kind of medical qualification evaluates your needs and makes recommendations. For many people those recommendations will just be "do yoga", but if the pain is the result of an injury it might be useful to know what exercises are safe and won't make it worse.

Obviously up to you if you think paying for that advice is worth it. I've found that just experimenting carefully by myself had better results.

Re:same difference

[Stewie241]

Perhaps where you're from... most people I know who have gone to physiotherapy have ended up in physio sessions three times a week doing various stretching and exercise.

Re:same difference

[Dixie_Flatline]

I've had a persistent IT band problem for about 15 years from doing a lot of cycling and not noticing that my saddle was slightly askew for a while. To this day, if my bike is set up incorrectly, I'll end up with a pain so intense that I absolutely can't move my leg while I'm on the bike, and it will even make walking difficult later.

I went to physio for it. There were stretches and TENS therapy and massage with an obnoxious piece of metal (it was shaped like a large butterknife and was used to break down scar tissue in the area where my IT band was grinding against some bone). After 8 weeks of that, I was 'cured' and sent on my way. It DID feel better, but I'd still have trouble on long rides.

I went to a training camp, and there was a yoga class for cyclists included in the package. I'd been riding in low to moderate pain for the beginning of the camp, but literally just one yoga session solved my problem. I rode for the rest of that camp without any issues, and I still use the stretches that I learned.

I'm not providing this anecdote to denigrate physiotherapists, but I don't think they put enough stock in solutions like yoga. It was never brought up, and the stretches I was given to do weren't even close to as effective as the ones I picked up in that class. It could be that the physio I did was required to see the gains that I eventually saw later down the road, but I'm honestly very doubtful.

I believe strongly in Western medicine and the scientific process, but the reality is that a lot of doctors consider everything not done in a clinical setting a complete waste of your time and won't even suggest dropping into a yoga class to see how that goes at first.

Re:same difference

[angel'o'sphere]

In Germany many (most?) Yoga teachers are actually Physio Therapists.
That way their students can get the course costs partly or fully refunded by the health insurance.

Re:same difference

[LunaticTippy]

When I had physical therapy I didn't want to go in 3x a week so I asked them if they could show me the techniques and I would do them at home. They were happy to oblige. Many patients are bad at doing the exercises and want the hand holding, but it isn't mandatory. The PT clinic isn't going to promote home care since they don't get paid for it.

Re:same difference

[HiThere]

What you need to remember is that there are loads of schools of yoga, and many of them weren't designed to improve your body. Some of them don't even directly address the body.

But even if you restrict the domain to hatha yoga, which is what you are contemplating, it includes things like standing on one leg for hours with your fingers pressed against your palm. This intentionally causes pain, and is not designed to improve your body in any way (though I guess it might improve your balance).

So you need to select the correct yoga. (Yoga basically means union.) Most of those who advertise as yoga teachers in the western world are claiming to benefit the body, but not all, and sometimes their school, while it may have that as a side effect, doesn't really have that as a goal.

Re: same difference

[DarionScard1029]

Round two...thanks dictation. Funny you should mention yoga and cycling...I started doing DDP yoga a few years back along with starting cycling at a more intense level than I have in the past. Guys I rode with who had ridden for many years were surprised by me at six months keeping up with them already just between those two things. Cyclist Tom Danielspn wrote a book called Core Advantage, based on his work with a sports oriented physical therapist. Not surprisingly, many of the poses I was doing in DDP Yoga were a part of the workouts and stretches. Good book too, built to allow any of the poses without buying equipment.

What's the difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Use whatever works best. I once got a printout of lower back exercises from my doctor and it worked better than anything else. No yoga, no PT, just follow the instructions and I felt much better. You have to do it consistently, so that may be why some people find yoga better than PT.

Physical therapy and yoga are the same thing

[topham]

Physical therapy and yoga are very similar. Shockingly enough!!!

Re:Physical therapy and yoga are the same thing

[gnick]

One has stretchy bands, inflatable balls, and machines. The other has pants that should require a license to wear.

Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[Anonymous Coward]

Christians have tried to convince people that yoga is evil. Rather than simply being exercises, they try to claim that yoga is a way for Hinduism to infiltrate the western world and spread their religion. They've done their best to try to prevent Christians from practicing yoga, even if it's just doing a set of poses. The local Catholic bishop has told people in the diocese that practicing yoga is essentially a grave matter, effectively saying that it's a serious sin. As usual, religion gets in the way of something good that can actually help people.

And no, it's not unmanly. Awhile back, former WWE wrestler Diamond Dallas Page was on Shark Tank to pitch a very successful yoga program. He brought a guest for his pitch who he said had severe back pain and weight issues, but had made incredible improvements from doing the yoga routine. It was pretty remarkable, and yoga has obvious health benefits. It's one data point, but there's a body of evidence that yoga has significant health benefits.

Can we stop saying that yoga is evil and unmanly? This is stupid.

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[gl4ss]

uh maybe you should move out of vatican.

or expose your local bishop as anti-christian hate mongerer that he is. it's not hard to do really.

of course it's not easy if the people who listen to him are hatemongerer dolts as well. still, you could convince a few of them that the bishop is an asshat.

or you know, you could start a choga gym. same thing, different name. actually if your locale is stupid enough to fall for something that stupid a bishop says they might fall for that.

because seriously, you don't need to have studied the bible for that long to know that it has nothing in it saying that yoga is sinful. absofuckinglutely nothing. it also has nothing in it that would imply that praying to saints would bring good fortune though so theres that..

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[ShanghaiBill]

yoga is a way for Hinduism to infiltrate the western world and spread their religion.

Hindus have very little interest in spreading their religion to the Western World. Hinduism is tightly bound to Indian culture, and doesn't fit well at all into other cultures. Christianity and Islam are unusual in being universal religions that can apply to all of humanity. Most religions are tribal, like Hinduism and Judaism, and adherents make little or no effort to proselytize to other ethnicities.

Yoga is not a threat to American civilization. You should go back to worrying about Sharia.

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[UnknownSoldier]

> Some dumb Christians have tried to convince people that yoga is evil.

FTFY.

/sarcasm Because eating Italian food makes one Italian, and practicing stretching makes one Hindu, and ... oh WAIT, no one has a monopoly on stretching.

Some dumb Christians also believe that "Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him," (1 Cor 11:14). Apparently these retards haver never seen a male horse with a long mane, nor a male lion.

The only ones saying Yoga is "evil" are idiots.

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[angel'o'sphere]

That bible quote most likely is a fake introduced later anyway (I mean: it likely was never in a Corinthian letter, they are written by Petrus, right?)

In ancient times (and the bible is full with references to that) most men weared long hair. As well in germanic cultures as in middle eastern cultures. In some cultures it was believed that the strength of a man is in his hair.

The habit to shave the head of convicts, war collaborators, conscripted soldiers etc. comes from that "believe".

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[jeti]

Unlikely.

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[pkphilip]

Not all yoga is religion, but there are types of yoga involving chants, mantras etc and invocation of deities. Those are definitely religious.

There are chants invoking Shiva etc. See the common yoga chants here:
https://www.yogajournal.com/yo...

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[pkphilip]

The Hindu right in India begs to differ with you. The Hindu right have notions of grandeur which involve conquering neighboring countries and bringing them under a Hindu "rashtra" (kingdom). The present Indian government under the BJP Party have made it clear that they are interested in declaring India as an Indian state and also the current PM is on record as calling for an Akhand Bharat (a greater nation which incorporates Pakistan, Bangladesh, parts of Afghanistan etc).

http://indianexpress.com/artic...

The present government has also declared their intent to declare India as a Hindu nation with minority rights severely restricted as per the ideologies of their parent organizations that they owe allegiance to - such as the RSS and the Hindu Mahasabha.

http://www.rediff.com/news/rep...

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[pkphilip]

Correct: The present Indian government under the BJP Party have made it clear that they are interested in declaring India as an **Hindu** state

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[Anonymous Coward]

It looks like people will make up pretty much anything to bash Christians. My and I are life long Christians. I've never heard of Christians making any such claims. My wife is a Christian book author who practices yoga herself. Christians know that yoga, like chiropractors and acupuncture, rice and soy sauce, come from non-christian origins. Christians eat rice and soy sauce, too.

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[jgtg32a]

It honestly depends on the instructor if it is religious or not. I would love to find one that just ran us through the forms and focused on proper technique.

I haven't found one.

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[HiThere]

Not precisely. Some generals required their troops to shave their beards and cut their hair to keep an opponent from grabbing them by the hair. This, of course, was certainly not widespread. Definitely not before the age of easily sharpened razors. But it happened. And it wasn't (in those cases) intended as a sign of shame.

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[HiThere]

That gets tricky. Sometimes those chants are definitely religious, other times it would be more proper to call them philosophical. (In both cases indoctrination is fair.) But how do you rate them when the chants are in a foreign language (unintelligible to the chanter) and aren't translated?

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[HiThere]

If you are thinking of an instructor that didn't believe that yoga included philosophical or spiritual meaning, I doubt he would be a valid instructor in yoga. But there are so many different schools that I could be wrong.

The root of the word yoga means union, and the idea was the union of the practitioner with the universe (in some sense...the schools differ widely about in what sense).

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[angel'o'sphere]

Alexander the Great was the first (known) to make that suggestion (cutting away the beard), but he did not enforce it.
Hair is not really relevant as it is below a helmet.
Razor sharp baldes we have since the stone ages, flint can be shaped into razors. Bronze blades are as sharp as steel blades, just not as durable.

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[HiThere]

Any hair that can be grabbed is relevant. IIUC Belisarius did enforce it. And bronze blades can't be kept sharp. Obsidian could be, but it's difficult to deal with.

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[pkphilip]

Why chat at all if it is supposed to be just exercise? Many of the mantras are invocations to Shiva, Ganesha etc. The deeper you go into yoga you get into things like Kundalini etc which is seen as a serpent kundalini resting in the base of the spine. If all of that isn't spooky and religious, what is?

Re:Why Yoga won't be more widely used

[angel'o'sphere]

Bronze blades are as sharp as steel blades, thy only get dull quicker and need resharpening more often.

Obsidian could be, but it's difficult to deal with.
Yeah, you can not really resharpen it.

Not surprised at all

[moronikos]

Since when I went to Kaiser Permanente 20 years ago for back pain, they gave me a bunch of exercises with my physical therapy. A few years ago I was reading a book about yoga and all the exercises they gave me were yoga moves. So, basically the physical therapy is yoga.

Re:Not surprised at all

[HiThere]

If you want to claim that "all self-professed Yogis are frauds" you are asserting a lie. If you said many, or possibly even most, you'd have a good point. There is no standardization of what is a yoga teacher, and there's can't be, as yoga has so many different schools. OTOH, in many places all you have to do is claim to be a yoga teacher...which makes it an easy place for con-artists to work.

It's basically like claiming that "all preachers are frauds". It's certainly true that many are, but it's also true that many aren't.

Re:Not surprised at all

[HiThere]

Your definition of fraud is clearly non-standard, which makes your comment difficult to understand. Based on your usage (in the above post) it appears to be approx. "People who assert something I don't accept".

Re:Not surprised at all

[david_thornley]

Fraud is normally defined as deliberate deceit. If you believe in something, and teach it, you're not a fraud. You may be very seriously wrong, and your teachings may be doing great harm, but you're not a fraud.

The few teachers I know personally believe what they say, although they acknowledge that some of it sounds dubious to your average Westerner. Unless you've actually investigated their claims, or at least can find negative results from serious investigation, you're calling them frauds for saying things they believe in and which you haven't bothered to falsify.

That doesn't make you a liar, but it does make you an asshole not worth listening to.

Sitting all day long is bad for you... news at 11

[Anonymous Coward]

Too many people are getting into a car, driving to work, sitting at a desk, going home and sitting in front of the computer or tv and then wondering why they have back pain... Spread the word, you have got to stretch and exercise most days.

No shit.

[Qbertino]

This sounds like something straight from the mouth of Captain Obvious.

Truth be told, Yoga is about as "full body workout" as it gets.

If you think Yoga is just some spiritual foo-foo wah-wah shit and all the health benefits are placebo, you are soooo wrong. Yes, the fortune-cookie wisdoms Yoga instructors dish out at the end of a workout when everybody is chilling and meditating can be flat-out cringe-worthy and inscence and sitar music (or whatever that string-instrument is called) isn't everybody's thing, but the 90 minutes that went before that are enough to put any regular iron-pumper or cross-fit person into gasp and sweat mode. Taking the positions slowly and elegantly ("Ansanas" in Yogaspeak) and holding them is really hard and requires a lot of strength and coordination and at times goes beyond pro level gymnastics.

Oh, and the countless chicks that do it are often pretty hot. And I mean that in more ways than one. :-) ... Which reminds me that I actually just had an excessive flirt (and some very nice dances) with a cute Yoga instructor this weekend ...

So, yes, there are a lot of benefits to doing Yoga, including those of regular physical health, strength and flexibility at the same time. That Yoga is about as good as it gets when treating muscular deficiencies in your back is something well established.

Re:No shit.

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't seem to know much about health or women.

Re:No shit.

[EvilAlphonso]

Your post is bullshit because:

1) Muscles adapt to stress. You have to overload them more and more. It only takes a few months of doing bodyweight exercises before you really aren't going to build any more strength from them, just muscular endurance. Eventually you need progressively heavier weights if you want to get stronger.

You may have heard of this thing called leverage... which tends to increase the strength required by putting your body at a disadvantage...

Take push-ups, for example: incline push-ups (hands higher than feet), to horizontal push-ups, to decline push-ups (feet higher than hands), to hand-stand push-ups. You can throw ring-variations in there for extra difficulty, because of the stabilization required. Or you can go pseudo-planche push-ups, towards full planche push-ups, fingertips full planche push-ups...

and yet...

[wolfgang_spangler]

neither works anywhere near as good as progressively loading a barbell with weights and engaging in a strength based training routine consisting of squats, deadlifts, and presses.

Re: and yet...

[cyber-vandal]

Or you could injure yourself further

Re:and yet...

[TechyImmigrant]

neither works anywhere near as good as progressively loading a barbell with weights and engaging in a strength based training routine consisting of squats, deadlifts, and presses.

This. I'm generally a slob, but if I start getting back pains or other physical issues, I start with the barbells and squats and avoiding the elevator and within a couple of weeks, it's all fixed. If I was into it, I'd do it all the time, but I'm not.

Re:and yet...

[angel'o'sphere]

Says the guy who has no clue how the body works ...

Re:and yet...

[peragrin]

For back issues build core muscles. Most people with back issues have core muscles that need more exercise. Crunches etc also people really need to do daily stretching were they tighten and relax those core muscles.

Re:and yet...

[PoopJuggler]

Can't tell if serious...

Re:and yet...

[Dixie_Flatline]

Tell that to people that are learning to walk again after being in a car accident or some other similarly traumatic incident. Some of the people that physiotherapists help are wheelchair bound before they get into therapy. Don't be an idiot.

Re:and yet...

[PaulRivers10]

Everyone I know (including myself) who tried barbell training with squats, deadlifts, and presses seriously injure themselves doing it. My coworker didn't have back pain before doing squats, now he does. No thanks.

Re:and yet...

[PaulRivers10]

Both of these things are bad advice. It's true about core muscles but back pain also involves the glutes, and other overly tight and strong muscles that need to be relaxed. A lot of people can't train their core muscles because other muscle groups are tight and pulling things out of place keeping the core muscles from engaging. Crunches are an absolutely terrible exercise for core strength. They only work the least important core muscle, and making that muscle overly strong while neglecting the other core muscles causes disfunction and issues.

Re:and yet...

[Zero__Kelvin]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Part of the problem is that you, like most people posting, don't know what Yoga is and have never done it, but feel qualified to post your ridiculous claims anyway. The people saying Yoga is bending and stretching have no concept of what Yoda is either.

There are numerous branches of Yoga, and the branch everyone is referring to, Hatha, is specifically intended to prepare the body for meditation. Yes there is bending and stretching, but much more importantly there is mindfullness, and this is where the difference between Yoga and physical therapy couldn't be more great.

Yoga, practiced correctly, involves meditation ... one focuses the mind on the body and on breathing. This causes a radical change. It is fairly well understood by science now, not "voodoo" at all. See also "Buddha's Brain", which doesn't mention Yoga, but instead focuses (excuse the pun) on mindfulness and the positive effects it has on the brain.

Furthermore, true practitioners of Yoga eat healthily, whereas those going to PT often don't. There are myriad other advantages to Yoga, but in the end hot babes in tight spandex is just a minimal perk in comparison.

If you don't believe me that there is a lot to Yoga, you could always do the geek thing and learn something.

Re: and yet...

[Zero__Kelvin]

No, you couldn't. Not if you do Yoga correctly. Emphasis is on careful attention to the body and what it tells you, and there is never any encouragement to push beyond what is good for your body in true Yoga. Indeed, quite the opposite. You carefully and gently move, never pushing beyond your own limitations or you are doing it wrong.

Re: and yet...

[david_thornley]

I think cyber-vandal was referring to weight training, which is dangerous if you don't do it right. (That's why I preferred the exercise machines in the gym to the free weights: it was a lot easier to use the machines properly, even if all they were doing was getting me to lift weights with various muscles).

Re:and yet...

[david_thornley]

I started taking a meditation class at a place that teaches yoga, and I found that it made me a lot better at noticing things. It wasn't a physical change, but it reminded me of when I was younger and I'd need a new prescription and how the world looked when I got my new glasses. I'm also feeling a little calmer when things aren't going the way I want. So far, disregarding all philosophy, it's well worth my time and money.

Re: and yet...

[Zero__Kelvin]

Yes. Looking at it again I can see you are correct.

Re:and yet...

[Zero__Kelvin]

Exactly. It makes you more mindful (i.e. awareness of the present moment.) This is a scientifically proven fact.

Access denied

[thelexx]

Even if it cured cancer and I had it, my wife would likely demand to escort me to and from a yoga studio.

Re:Trolioliolo

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about evil, but I remember there being a big thing a while back about christians complaining that yoga was a religion, and so if they're not allowed to force kids to pray in school then schools aren't allowed to offer courses in yoga.

Good if customized to the patient

[Anonymous Coward]

"The once-a-week yoga classes in the study were designed specifically for back-pain patients"

I'm compelled to stress the importance of this and of not doing exercises that lastingly increase pain. Many people with back pain who go to normal yoga classes end up being sore from pain instead of muscle soreness after since the programs are typically not customized to their needs/abilities.

Re:Good if customized to the patient

[omfglearntoplay]

Good eye catching that. Surely some injuries require avoidance of certain stretches or exercises.

Some tips for somebody with back pain reading this: plain old walking and wearing non-tight pants helps a lot with back pain. Comfortable stretching and isometric exercises are good. As you get less pain and more strength or endurance, I would recommend progressing to longer workouts or more activity. But use common sense and don't overdo anything that causes more pain to appear the next day.

Re:Good if customized to the patient

[Zero__Kelvin]

You don't have to stress it. That is a core component of Yoga. Those who are getting the pain aren't going to Yoga practitioners, they are going to Gyms where it is de riguer to capitalize on the idea of Yoga, for a profit, but really they don't do actual Yoga.

I have a suggestion

[slashmydots]

They should take away all the "breathing in energy" bullshit and find out what the movements are doing in hard, physical science and then copy it...wait that would just be physical therapy actually. What a coincidence.

Re:I have a suggestion

[Rick Schumann]

Like me, you're probably someone who enjoys exercise and doesn't need a carrot on the end of a stick to persuade you to do it at all in the first place, but remember that you and I are outliers, the average person would rather do anything other than exercise, up to and including die young of horrible diseases, because it's 'unpleasant'. I, too, think there's a lot of 'goofy woo-woo' stuff involved with yoga, that mainly makes it take twice as long as it needs to really take to do, but it seems to me that if you can get the average, exercise-hating person to buy into that 'goofy woo-woo pseudo-spiritual' stuff that is integrated into yoga, then it might just distract them (and/or fool them) enough that they won't notice that they're doing actual work, and keep doing it. Really, honestly, seriously, if I could find a way to get 100% of people to exercise willingly and regularly, I'd be a multi-billonaire from the idea.

Re:I have a suggestion

[PJ6]

They should take away all the "breathing in energy" bullshit and find out what the movements are doing in hard, physical science and then copy it...wait that would just be physical therapy actually. What a coincidence.

Breathing correctly is the most important part of yoga, and the reasons for this are well-known to the medical community. You could research the topic, or just do it and see for yourself why it's obviously true.

Movement is actually very complicated. Moving say, just your arm from point a to point b in a given position, isn't simple at all. We're not robots. There's almost an infinite number of internal variations available to any given movement, and some of that variation is even linked to your autonomic system. If you practice yoga long enough to "get" it, you'll feel parts of your brain grow, the ones that govern movement and proprioception. This gain in control and awareness, which is one of the many things breathing helps with, can be even more important than the gains you get in strength and flexibility. For rehab (and here, I'm talking from experience) yoga can be vastly superior to "standard" physical therapy. And breathing is very much the centerpiece of successful yoga practice.

Hatha Yoga

[eulernet]

What is called "Yoga" in the US is in fact "Hatha Yoga", as mentioned onto the wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Hatha Yoga's goal is to increase longevity and improve health, so it's no surprise that it works for back pain.

Personally, I practice yoga, but not hatha yoga, so it always bothers me when these two are mixed up.

Re:Hatha Yoga

[angel'o'sphere]

There are probably hundreds of Yoga "Styles".
Just find one that interests you most.

Re:Hatha Yoga

[houghi]

I like the one where I sit behind a screen for hours on end.

Re:Hatha Yoga

[angel'o'sphere]

I prefer martial arts an tantra over yoga :)
I sit already 8-10h behind a screen when I'm working ...

Interesting

[williamreview1]

Just in time when I and my wife wanted to do some yoga for our better health http://williamreview.com/im-vi...

The conclusions seem fine, but the discussion not

[TimothyHollins]

All of this sounds about right.

In fact, if you take a hindu to a physical therapy program and ask him what he just did, he'll say 'yoga'. If you take a physiotherapist to a yoga session and ask her what she just did, she'll say 'physical therapy' (assuming you avoid the weird stoner-stuff about energy and one-with-the-universe cringe that comes after). I've been doing physical therapy for quite a while now (back problems), and I can't see any difference between physical therapy, stretching, and yoga. They all revolve around moderate exertion of muscle groups that we don't normally exercise in our day-to-day lives.

Of course, there is also the usual virtue signalling bullshit included here.

That's important, say the researchers, because chronic back pain -- which affects about 10% of U.S. adults -- has a greater impact on minorities and people of lower socioeconomic status.

I would like to see the study that concludes that my life is 'more' fine with backpain than anyone else's. Is it less important to be able to play with your kids if you aren't the appropriate minority? Do you not benefit from long walks if you are rich? Are active hobbies only relevant if they prevent you from a life of crime?

If there isn't a study on this, then these researchers are regurgitating intellectually dishonest narratives (something which is usually consigned to the social "sciences"). I really hope this isn't part of a trend, since internal medicine is a field that must be harshly structured around logical thought and cold hard data.

Re:The conclusions seem fine, but the discussion n

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're rich you won't have to stack shelves at walmart with a bad back.

Re:Trolioliolo

[colinwb]

I don't recall seeing a "Google is your friend" comment recently, so searching on yoga+unchristian gives the following top two search items:
todayschristianwoman.com
telegraph.co.uk
A little futher down is item by a Christian criticising the first articlechristianitytoday.com, so yoga isn't universally condemned by Christians.
Addressing your precise point, searching on yoga+evil gives this 2011 news report (I use the term loosely - it's from the English Daily Mail): ... Father Amorth, a colourful and often outspoken personality, said:'Practising yoga brings evil as does reading Harry Potter. They may both seem innocuous but they both deal with magic and that leads to evil.' He added:'Yoga is the Devil's work. You thing [typo is in the online article] you are doing it for stretching your mind and body but it leads to Hinduism. All these oriental religions are based on the false belief of reincarnation.' ...

Re:Trolioliolo

[Mr D from 63]

He's just a troll making stuff up to get a response.

Yoga is a great workout, but in a Yoga class there is a pretty good chance you'll find a few folks that believe in crystal energy healing and life force energy.

Re:yoga != physical therapy ? sample size...

[Mr D from 63]

And then, you are going to tell me that a sample of 320 (1 ppm in respect to the American population) is representative while such pathologies affect 10% of the population...

I suppose you can't read, because the article didn't use the sample to determine what effects 10% of the population. I suppose you can't think either, because people of lower socioeconomic status are more likely to have jobs that require physical labor or strain, which is kind of obvious.

And how are they going to treat back pain...

[ctrl-alt-canc]

...caused by yoga lessons ?

Re:Trolioliolo

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Yoga IS evil. ThinkPads are way better!

Re:The conclusions seem fine, but the discussion n

[Anonymous Coward]

Manual labor reference. The home care worker at minimum wage has to lift patients all day, the slightly overweight hedge funder at 500k/yr watches while the movers shift the couch up the stairs.

wait no "engineer" nonsense yet? SAD

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on slashdot, this is where we swamp the thread with indignant rants about double blind tests, or how much nonsense meditation or Hindi music is. Can we get to the racist acupuncture references please?

Re:Trolioliolo

[enjar]

You need to look harder. Here are a few examples I got from "Christian yoga evil" and "christian no yoga school" in Google. There are plenty more examples. Of course, there is the "you can google an answer for anything", but this is certainly not the first time I've heard of Christianity having trouble with yoga. And of course, there are Christians who completely disagree and practice yoga regularly, as well as become certified and lead classes at their churches, with the consent of the church leadership. Definitely not trolling. References:

• Catholic Answers, "The Trouble With Yoga" https://www.catholic.com/magaz...
• Alternet, "Fear the Dark Art of Yoga! Why Conservative Christians Are Freaking Out After Yoga “Miracle”" http://www.alternet.org/belief...
• Christian Assemblies International, "The Spiritual Deception of Yoga", https://webcache.googleusercon...
• Christianity Today, "Should Yoga be Banned from Public Schools as a Religious Activity?", http://www.christianitytoday.c...

I can vouch for this.

[polyp2000]

After suffering from lower back pain and sciatica for quite some time and even having a nerve block treatment. I've done yoga practice with my partner (recently qualified yoga teacher) she tailored sessions to work on my lower back . Now I have much better posture and body awareness, my back pain has not returned since. I cannot recommend yoga highly enough. My back issues were probably caused by my job Software Engineer where I sit on my arse all day tapping away at a keyboard!

It's all about the asshole

[Stele]

Obligatory GTAV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ-wwqOhb3U

Re:exercise

[gnick]

I'd personally say Yoga in the pretentious "spiritual" manner it is taught is a waste of time while incorporating only certain exercises from it and combining them with PT cores without wasting 15 minutes to do an exercise "spiritually" is the best choice without wasting one's time.

If posing and stretching helps somebody focus, then what's wrong with incorporating it as a spiritual activity? Many activities can have a spiritual component if they help you get centered. Or maybe you consider all "spiritual" activities a waste of time.

Personally, when I've participated in yoga classes I found them relaxing and thought it felt good. PT I thought was a pain in the neck (even though there was some overlap), but it got me walking again. In my case, unlike apparently with back pain, yoga wasn't focused enough on what I needed to do the job even if I'd considered it as an option.

Re:yoga != physical therapy ? sample size...

[clovis]

If you are going to try to insult the intelligence of people, then you should know the difference between "effects" and "affects".

Kicks Ass!

[sycodon]

I've done Yoga twice. It kicked by ass both times.

Think of it as low level gymnastics. I mean the kind where you get on those rings and slowly go from vertical to horizontal o vertical again.

Crazy shit.

Re:Trolioliolo

[squiggleslash]

Every year or two there's a story that comes out about some Christian group - admittedly usually more wacky than the Catholic Church - calling for a ban on the grounds its a rival religion, but it's pretty much always a bunch of nutcases, rather than mainstream Christian. That said, once in a while it's more mainstream.

You're both essentially wrong, the GP is technically correct (the best kind! Hahahahaohgod) in the sense that yes, some Christians do it. But he's misleading in the sense that he suggests this is mainstream, which it isn't.

Not just Yoga

[feetandspine]

Proper posture, using proper ergonomic equipment at work and all that can help relieve or avoid altogether backpain. We have a whole section on our blog about backpain - https://www.feetandspine.com/b...

Re:The conclusions seem fine, but the discussion n

[alleycat0]

I wonder if "greater impact" is meant to be interpreted quantitatively, rather than qualitatively?

Not surprising..

[xanadu113]

Not surprising, they use yoga exercises IN physical therapy. It's the same mechanics involved.

Re:Trolioliolo

[angel'o'sphere]

'Life force energy', Chi in China, Ki in Japan, is an important concept in eastern medicine, philosophy and martial arts.
For those who practice it, there is no need for 'believe'. We simply feel it.

When I would do three techniques with you, I would do them first by putting my Ki at the wrong point, telling you the point. Then no Ki, then I put my Ki at the right point, telling you the point. The next three techniques I say nothing and you tell me what you feel. I guarantee you: you will feel exactly where I have put my Ki.

Or ask one to show you a Chi Gong breathing excercise ... it wont take more than 30 seconds for you to feel your own Ki. And you don't need to believe anything for that :)

Anyway, what you call a believe is a truth for me, as: The perception is always the truth in the eye of the perceptee.

Maybe you should learn to read

[SuperKendall]

First link:

"The use of yoga as a spiritual path is highly problematic."

Maybe you need to spend a little time at the dictionary if you equate "highly problematic as a spiritual path" (they had no problems with the physical effects) to raw baby-killing evil.

The second link is basically trolling also. I didn't bother to read the rest because why bother and it's apparent from the titles they have the same distance from "evil".

Re:Maybe you should learn to read

[enjar]

You should have moved onto the third, then. Its conclusion is as follows:

Yoga is not just a harmless physical exercise, it opens the door to demonic control. On which side do you ultimately want to stand? The devil’s or Christ’s? The consequences are more serious than you might realise.

I'd say in terms of "trolling" this is pretty weak "trolling". There are references out there to Christians who have varying degrees of problems with it. It's certainly not made up and there is certainly evidence from many sources that some Christians have problems with it. Many don't, of course. But it sure isn't "trolling", which is defined as "make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them" ...

not completely true

[smithcl8]

Obviously, PTs use the same exercises that the personal trainers and yoga instructors do. There are only so many exercises out there. If you have a problem specifically in one part of your body, though, going to yoga will not fix your problem as effectively as a specifically-designed routine from a PT. Once you are back on your feet (or hand or arm or whatever), you should hit a gym and go for a full-body style workout of some sort. Yoga is one such choice. If you want to lose some weight, do something more cardio-based like kickboxing or something. All exercise is good, as long as you keep with it and make sure you work your whole body.

Re:Trolioliolo

[Mr D from 63]

Sure, you are free to believe in whatever whatever you like, and even claim it to be your truth. As long as you are happy.

Re:Trolioliolo

[HiThere]

FWIW, it's one thing to feel the described sensation, and it's another to accept the explanation for what causes the sensation. I often have a great deal of problem with accepting the explanation. But it could be that the translator didn't properly understand the original work.

Re:Trolioliolo

[angel'o'sphere]

Same for you :D

Feeling my Ki does not make me happy, though. It is completely irrelevant.

Re:Trolioliolo

[angel'o'sphere]

I guess no one really knows where the sensation comes from.
For doing martial arts or health exercises it is not really important anyway.
Bottom line Ki/Chi is an umbrella term. E.g. when in martial arts someone says "concentrate your Ki here" you simply can translate it to "put your focus there".
On the other hand it overlaps with "body exercises" that involve breathing and fluid movements. Here you easy get a "feeling for Ki" or life energy. But for what purpose? Well, a reasonable purpose is if you are freezing, have cold feet or have an injury e.g. You do the exercise to "wake the Ki" and then "you focus" on the cold part or injured part. Pain and cold is going away very quickly. Because the focus and the exercise changes your blood flow, so that more blood goes to the point in question. That is actually scientifically proven as you can see it easy on IR cameras. So: Ki is just blood focused to be at a/the special point ;D (or not?)

Re:Trolioliolo

[Mr D from 63]

It certainly seems that it is relevant to you in some manner, as you felt compelled to defend it.

Re:king of the hill did it!

[modi123]

Agreed. I was going to post that I knew this back in the day from Hank Hill.

Re:Trolioliolo

[angel'o'sphere]

Of course it is relevant.
But I don't "defend" it. There is no need for it.

As I said: ask one to show you an exercise and you will "feel it" too.
But perhaps your religion does not allow you to train your body to perceive things you "believe" that they don't exist ;D

Re:Trolioliolo

[Mr D from 63]

Of course it is relevant. But I don't "defend" it. There is no need for it.

As I said: ask one to show you an exercise and you will "feel it" too. But perhaps your religion does not allow you to train your body to perceive things you "believe" that they don't exist ;D

Sorry, I am not religious. But I do respect those with religious beliefs, including vitalism. If people say they feel a god's presence, or life force energy, good for them. I try not to debate such things with those folks, so I'll stop here and wish you happiness.

Re:Trolioliolo

[angel'o'sphere]

Would have been more interesting if you had tested it and told me you felt nothing :)
Because you would be the first then and I had a counterexample to the other people.

Can we get insurance to pay for it?

[lpq]

Given the high price of good yoga classes, can we get insurance to pay for it. How about time-off 3x/week to goto yoga class?

Versus... getting higher monetary payments for "physical therapy" &
time-off to go to doctors' visits and therapy?

Which is easier for the employee?

Re:Can we get insurance to pay for it?

[david_thornley]

Depends on the employee, employer, and insurance plan, I guess. The yoga might be cheaper than the deductible for physical therapy, for example.

I also have to go through medical channels for physical therapy. I can sign up for a yoga class at a place three blocks from my home without justifying anything and without paying all that much.

Re:Trolioliolo

[david_thornley]

I treat everyone who calls for bans of rival religions as nutcases. It's simpler that way, and I haven't noticed a loss of usefulness in my judgment.

Re:Trolioliolo

[Mr D from 63]

Its not like I've never exercised, it makes me feel great and there are lots of body chemistry reasons for that. But if you want someone to test your theory, please spell out the test criteria. Otherwise, if you just want to proselytize vitalism, I'll simply respond just as I would someone proselytizing a god based religious belief. Frankly, I don't care to debate your beliefs and wish you well with them, so I was going to just leave it alone. If you insist on pushing your beliefs, however, then please start with the scientific basis and hard evidence. And if you do, please know that the human mind can perceive things differently than they really are, and can fool itself into inaccurately assigning the source of its perceptions. A very strong influence on perception can be other people and what they profess, larger groups professing the same can even have a stronger influence.

Re:Trolioliolo

[angel'o'sphere]

The test criteria is pretty simple.
You do a Qi Gong or Tai Chi exercise and feel the flow of Ki.
No idea what else you need/want.
If you are to lazy or feel to incompetent to judge (for a good/suitable teaching video) I would even go and google you a youtube video.
However it is hard to believe that you have no friend, coworker, acquaintance or relative that ever did/still does Yoga, Tai Chi or Qi Gong, Shiatsu or a martial art in which Ki/Chi plays a role: Aikido, Kung Fu, Karate etc. Everyone doing such a "sport" above should be able to show you a 30 seconds exercise.

Ki is not only an eastern concept. In Indian it is called Prana, but that is a slightly different variation (from Ki/Chi I mean), or Kundalini, which is a very specific manifestation, in (ancient) Greek it is called Pneuma (in our days translated as 'breath') in Hebrew it is called Ruach. The old nordic/germanic name is Megin. In polynesia it is called Mana, in the Caribs (and west Africa?) Mojo.

Bottom line it is no mythical energy anyway, it is just how the blood flow and partly muscle tension manifests itself as a 'feeling', which btw. can be clearly seen on thermal cameras :) Yes: there are scientific researches about what Ki is. But besides certain blood flows they don't find anything (special). Ever seen a Shaoling Monk threw a stitching needle through a glass panel? When they teach they use the term Chi/Qi. No one really understands until after three years of practicing he can throw the needle through a glass panel. Only leaving behind a very tiny hole and a few very tiny splinters of glass. On a thermal camera you see a 'pneumatic' shot of blood going from the center of the body into the throwing hand, faster than the arm is moving.

Re:Trolioliolo

[Mr D from 63]

"no mythical energy", but its only something you 'feel', then you just insult others instead of providing any scientific basis. Nothing you describe is anything but normal body chemistry on some mental need to explain it with vitalism.

On a thermal camera, you see thermal gradients produced by normal biological functions. Nothing more.

I exercise all the time. I just don't feel the need to attribute the results to anything but well understood biology.

Lots of 'ancient' societies have named gods and supernatural forces, that does not give them any legitimacy, but it does provide some people with a psychological 'fill in' for lack of scientific basis. I see that works for you. Very well, like I said, as long as it makes you happy.

Re:Trolioliolo

[angel'o'sphere]

I did not insult you.
I exercise all the time. I just don't feel the need to attribute the results to anything but well understood biology.
Yeah, you push weights. Or run. What has that to do with Ki/Chi?

I told you several times to look a video of a Tai Chi or Chi Gong practitioner.

You don't want. So you are unscientific.

Lots of 'ancient' societies have named gods and supernatural forces, that does not give them any legitimacy, but it does provide some people with a psychological 'fill in' for lack of scientific basis.
I explained you in my last post in the last paragraph the scientific base. Probably you are to lazy to google, to confirm/check it.

Very well, like I said, as long as it makes you happy.
It does not make me happy. It makes me sad that you spent half an hour arguing with me instead of simply trying it.

Re:Trolioliolo

[Mr D from 63]

I explained you in my last post in the last paragraph the scientific base. .

You did nothing of the sort. Maybe you just don't understand what constitutes a scientific explanation or evidence, its certainly not because some person teaches it, or because ancient societies named it. You've provided ZERO. I can find videos of people preaching religion all day, that doesn't mean their gods are real. Sho me a physical experiment with measurement and also a scientific explanation for results which doesn't breakdown in to 'we simply don't understand' at its fundamental level, because that is same as any religion.

As for making you happy, although you protest it must fill a psychological need otherwise you would not argue for it so much when you have no scientific basis. You say it doesn't matter but it very clear does. Similarly some religious folks similarly say their beliefs are chosen not because it make them happy, they just accept them as truth.

So why do you feel so compelled to argue for vitalism when you have no scientific bases, evidence or other? Why is it so important to you to proselytize it? You seem to be at peace believing in it, so why not just be happy with that and let it be?

Re:Trolioliolo

[angel'o'sphere]

I told you that there are scientific experiments which show that the so called "inner energy" is nothing more than an increased blood flow. Clearly visible on thermal cameras.

Perhaps you want to go back two posts ...

All that has nothing to do with the fact that you can do the experiments in minutes your self, but you refuse. So you are not scientific, but somehow scare.

As for making you happy, although you protest it must fill a psychological need otherwise you would not argue for it so much when you have no scientific basis
It never occurred you that I'm simply a stupid german and that we are known "to like to be right!"??

So why do you feel so compelled to argue for vitalism when you have no scientific bases, evidence or other?
I don't know what vitalism is. I talk about a thing which in my martial arts is called Ki, can clearly be precepted, and is called CHI and various other names in other cultures.
You don't need a scientific study to talk about your own perception and YOU don't need a scientific study to make a simple test and perceive the same. That is all. I'm not "arguing" about Ki/Chi/Qi or what ever. I'm simply surprised that you don't want to make an experiment. And I'm insulted that you treat me like a wacko ;D So in other words: I argue about your reluctancy to do an experiment that would change your Weltbild, but is completely unimportant for the course of your life and for mine.

It is more or less like suggestion: "play that computer game! I'm sure you will like it!" and I give you the CD and you never try it. Completely irrelevant for your or my live, but a bit disappointing if you were my friend.

Re:Trolioliolo

[Mr D from 63]

... scientific experiments which show that the so called "inner energy" is nothing more than an increased blood flow. Clearly visible on thermal cameras..

So, in your words, there was nothing observed other that increased blood flow, which obviously is going to happen when one exercises and there is no 'inner energy'. Why don't you just call it increased blood flow instead of Ki?

Re:Trolioliolo

[angel'o'sphere]

Because at the time the people discovered that effect, they used a word from their language. In Japanese that is Ki, in Chinese it is Qi.

If you had tried to pay attention instead of putting me into the "wacko corner" that would have been obvious 3, 4 or 5 posts back.

On the other hand, I'm not convinced that it is only increased blood flow :D but that is what the "scientists" saw.

Re:Trolioliolo

[Mr D from 63]

Because at the time the people discovered that effect, they used a word from their language. In Japanese that is Ki, in Chinese it is Qi.

If you had tried to pay attention instead of putting me into the "wacko corner" that would have been obvious 3, 4 or 5 posts back.

On the other hand, I'm not convinced that it is only increased blood flow :D but that is what the "scientists" saw.

You are the one the called it 'life force energy', then went about giving it some sort of context by talking about ancient civilizations beliefs. But blood flow is nothing of the sort. Don't blame me for the path you chose to walk, you posted that.....and your last sentence pretty much puts you where I thought you were.

Re:Trolioliolo

[angel'o'sphere]

Life forrce energy is the lose translation for Ki or Qi.
And it is a concept in basically all traditional healing methods (world wide), so I would not dismiss it as 'fantasie'.

Re:Trolioliolo

[Mr D from 63]

Life forrce energy is the lose translation for Ki or Qi. And it is a concept in basically all traditional healing methods (world wide), so I would not dismiss it as 'fantasie'.

So, we are back where we started. If you are OK with that belief, then fine. Don't try to proselytize it to me with no scientific explanation. Praying is also a traditional healing method.

Re:Trolioliolo

[angel'o'sphere]

So, we are back where we started.
Don't know where we actually started :D

Don't try to proselytize it to me with no scientific explanation.
Why do you need a "scientific explanation" for a "sensation" you never had because you are to lazy to do a simple Chi Gong exercise?
Why are you not making such an exercise and then try to find a scientific way to "measure" its effect? See below (here).

You are dismissing things everyone can feel ... that is completely unscientific.

Praying is also a traditional healing method.
It might have an placebo effect.

But I don't know about a "healing method" where praying is involved. Do you?

Here:
I cooked some nice food, it smells awful (e.g. kidneys, they always smell so bad in the kitchen, I really go outside)
Everyone knows that good made kidneys are actually extremely tasty.
But: you don't want to try them, however you where not even in the kitchen and don't know about the smell.

You are simply convinces kidneys don't taste, you probably are convinced kidneys don't even exist.

Or in the Ki/Qi thingy: you have stupid religion that forbids you to do scientific experiments before the scientists has declared/explained to you how it works.

In other words: you never ever will "discover" something :D because there is not already a scientific explanation for it.

Re:Trolioliolo

[Mr D from 63]

We started with your claims of a 'life force energy', one that has no more evidence for it than a supernatural being. You ended there with no evidence.

If your life energy has a placebo healing effect,as you suggest, than its all in your mind and its no different than praying. That example you provided is more evidence that it does not exist. Not a smart move.

There rest of your post is bullshit drivel. Same crap could be said for religious beliefs... you sound just like a preacher talking about 'discovering the truth'. Please stop because I really don't have any respect for those that insist on proselytizing such beliefs. In fact, I think people who so easily believe in unknown forces that have no scientific basis or evidence are quite shallow minded and don't have the capacity to be objective. Now, those that have such beliefs but understand why others might not want to receive proselytization of them have my respect. At least they can see things objectively. You don't appear to be able to put aside your need to insist this life force energy is real in the absence of you ability to provide even a tiny bit of evidence of it. Why is it so important to you that others belief in this life force energy?

Why is it any different than me calling the relaxed feeling I get after I fart the result of mystical force? I think my farts are life giving. No scientific evidence, but hey if you deny it you'll never know the truth.

Re:Trolioliolo

[angel'o'sphere]

We started with your claims of a 'life force energy', one that has no more evidence for it than a supernatural being. You ended there with no evidence.
I made no claims like that.
You probabky got side tracked in that threat and answered to the wrong person.
That would explain the strange circles our discussion/conversation is making, at least.

Re:Trolioliolo

[Mr D from 63]

We started with your claims of a 'life force energy', one that has no more evidence for it than a supernatural being. You ended there with no evidence. I made no claims like that. You probabky got side tracked in that threat and answered to the wrong person. That would explain the strange circles our discussion/conversation is making, at least.

So are such a sack of you know what. You can't even admit to what you posted., Here are YOUR words.

'Life force energy', Chi in China, Ki in Japan, is an important concept in eastern medicine, philosophy and martial arts. For those who practice it, there is no need for 'believe'. We simply feel it.

I suppose you'll weasel around that fact... don't bother you are a worthless troll and you have just proven that beyond doubt.