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Ends, Means, and Antitrust (stratechery.com)

Analyst Ben Thompson on the European Commission's $2.7 billion fine levied on Google for anti-competitive behavior: The United States and European Union have, at least since the Reagan Administration, differed on this point: the U.S. is primarily concerned with consumer welfare, and the primary proxy is price. In other words, as long as prices do not increase -- or even better, decrease -- there is, by definition, no illegal behavior.

The European Commission, on the other hand, is explicitly focused on competition: monopolistic behavior is presumed to be illegal if it restricts competitors which, in the theoretical long run, hurts consumers by restricting innovation.

97 comments

  1. Control group by Hognoxious · · Score: 1, Interesting

    In other words, as long as prices do not increase -- or even better, decrease -- there is, by definition, no illegal behavior.

    This is utter twaddle. Without any shenanigans they might - due to technical advances - have decreased even more.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:Control group by PPH · · Score: 1

      In other words, as long as prices do not increase -- or even better, decrease -- there is, by definition, no illegal behavior.

      What is dumping?

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:Control group by jonsmirl · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Google should simply make this whole block a biddable AdWords item.
      Search image

      Then if the external shopping engine's bid exceeds the total of the bids for the five items, the external engine gets control of the entire block.
      "Shop for adidas boost on Google" would be replaced with "Shop for adidas boost on Price Grabber". And the five ads would be sourced from the external engine.

      This is a win-win solution. The external engines can achieve exactly the same ad placement Google does, and Google gets compensated for generating the traffic if someone clicks. External engines still make money because they are after affiliate commissions which are far high enough to cover the cost of the clicks.

      Solutions where these external engines get fed valuable, easily monetizable traffic for free are a non-started with me. Google has invested a lot of effort in generating this traffic, Google deserves some compensation if they pass the consumer to the external site.

    3. Re:Control group by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Shitty for consumers though, who just want the lowest price from a reasonable retailer. As consumers we should look for ways to achieve that.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    4. Re:Control group by jonsmirl · · Score: 1

      Affiliate commissions are why these external sites are complaining. They want to be fed a giant free stream of easily monetizable traffic which they then collect affiliate commissions from anyone buying. AFAIK Google does not collect the affiliate commissions, they only charge standard click rates.

      And a $2.7B fine is just ridiculous. I suspect prices will go up, not down if Google is forced to pass traffic off to these sites since they will only be displaying stores that offer affiliate commissions. Stores that offer affiliate commissions tend to have higher prices.

      I'd like to see stats on how much Google Shopping is used. Personally I find it to be pretty useless.

  2. Wait, there's more... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yet manufacturers in the U.S. continually change content while keeping the same package size in order to fool consumers into thinking nothing has changed. In these cases, the prices haven't dropped, but the value has. ie...business as usual.

    1. Re:Wait, there's more... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 2

      What do you expect - the author is an analyst == he needs to get the word out that he's willing to ignore realities that are unfavourable to what potential corporate customers want to here.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  3. You've got to be kidding by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 4, Insightful

    the U.S. is primarily concerned with consumer welfare

    Tell that to the 22 million health care consumers who are going to be cut to give a tax break to millionaires. If they really cared, and cared about lowest cost, they'd bring in single payer universal healthcare. The cutbacks to the EPA that will result in dirtier air, higher fossil fuel consumption and pollution, and less water quality monitoring. And if you're going to use price as a proxy for caring, it's pretty damned obvious that the US is not considered with the rate of inflation of education leaving students looking at a lifetime of debt.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    1. Re: You've got to be kidding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mr. President, I've caught you in a fib . . .

    2. Re:You've got to be kidding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell that to the 22 million health care consumers who are going to be cut ...

      I read that most of that number are actually young healthy people who are projected to be likely to opt out when there's no penalty for doing so. Is that not true?

    3. Re:You've got to be kidding by Plus1Entropy · · Score: 1

      This is because you view health care as a product and not as a human right.

      --
      Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
    4. Re:You've got to be kidding by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      It is. Just because you think otherwise doesn't change reality.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    5. Re:You've got to be kidding by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      Of course it is true. Or near enough to mean the same. But that ruins his narrative of "evil rich white men".

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    6. Re:You've got to be kidding by lucm · · Score: 1

      Tell that to the 22 million health care consumers who are going to be cut to give a tax break to millionaires.

      When you talk about millionnaires, do you mean Big Insurance crooks who will no longer be able to buy Gulfstreams and Teslas with the money stolen from small business owners?

      It was basically the same as when the mafia would take protection money from small business owners, except this time the cops and the thieves were on the same side of the law.

      --
      lucm, indeed.
    7. Re:You've got to be kidding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And who exactly supplies this "right" to humans and how? You can't just say it's a "human right"...or rather you can but in general you're just full of shit.

    8. Re:You've got to be kidding by JoshuaZ · · Score: 1

      The summary is just talking about the approach to anti-trust laws, not a general philosophical ethos.

    9. Re:You've got to be kidding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Both those views are incomplete IMO.

      Public health care is something that makes pragmatic sense.
      You want people with contagious diseases to find a professional as soon as possible.
      Since everyone is harmed by a pandemic it makes sense to use collective resources to make sure that everyone is checked up on regularly.
      You also don't want to have people being so ill that they can't work. That would just be a loss to society since people too ill to work won't pay taxes.
      So it also makes sense to spend tax money to treat people so that they can get back to work as soon as possible.

      Same thing with education. I don't trust my neighbor to make the right choice with his kids.
      I'd rather pay taxes to provide for their education so that they don't grow up to be white trash.
      It's not only cheaper than paying for law enforcement once they grow up. Even if law enforcement throws them in jail after they broke into my home and took my TV or whatever it is still an inconvenience and expense for me at that point.

      But sure. In part it is possible to also look at it as a product or a human rights issue.

    10. Re:You've got to be kidding by Your.Master · · Score: 2

      This isn't a statement about reality, it's a statement about ethics. And therefore, the fact that he thinks it is *does* make it so.

    11. Re:You've got to be kidding by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Did you ever use roads and sidewalks without paying a toll for each use? Drinking water and toilets? You want to look at what a country without a public sanitation infrastructure looks (and smells) like, go to India, where 600 million don't have toilets, where people shit on the sidewalks. Constructing infrastructure for use by all, irrespective of their ability to pay, means we don't have half the population taking a dump wherever they want.

      And you spent years of your life leaching off others (you were literally a parasite when in the womb) before your first job, others paid for your existence.

      Blaming it on the younger generation is bullshit. They are the ost indebted ever when it comes to education, and yet many can't find jobs. And when they can't find jobs, all I hear from assholes like you is "I was able to do it, so you should be able to, and if not it's your fault" - even though it was the previous generations that totally wrecked the economy. Oh, and "get more training."

      I won't call you old fashioned, because old fashioned values included caring about those around you. Not "I've got mine, Jack!"

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    12. Re:You've got to be kidding by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Liars. 14 million are working poor, the ones who, without government subsidies, will have to opt out because they simply won't have the money for the premiums. It won't be a opt out when you're forced out. Same with most of the 1.4 million seniors in retirement homes that are going to end up on the street. Same with the disabled.

      And anyone with pre-existing conditions will be shut out. Cancer? 140,000 per year premium. Pregnant women? Costs will rise by $17,000.

      For what? The tax cuts don't go to people making less than a million a year. So if you think your tax savings will make up the difference, you're probably wrong. This plan is simply a way to give millionaires and billionaires more money.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    13. Re:You've got to be kidding by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Bullshit, Read it again. It made a general statement that the US is primarily concerned with consumer welfare. That covers far more than antitrust law. And it certainly takes nothing away from my point, because if antitrust laws were properly enforced, insurance premiums would be way lower.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  4. Doing the Work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The EU Commission does the work of the market courts, while the US does the work of the consumer rights authorities. So maybe there could be a specialized EU market court to lessen the load of the Commission and the Court of Justice, and maybe there could be am authoritative consumer rights office in the US government that could lessen the load on the other branches of the government?

  5. Corporatism by labnet · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The USA has a unique culture that was bought by the Puritan work ethic that promoted individualism and self improvement.
    A good explanation is the three stages of maturity.
    Dependance (child), Independance (teen), Interdependence (adult)
    The USA seems to revere Independence, where Europe, Oceania focus more on interdependence.

    Americans confuse this with socialism/communism and have a great fear that someone may undeservedly benefit from their labor. I can assure you being in one of these 'socialist' countries, that the benefits outweigh disadvantages.
    Universal healthcare is terrific. Proper limits on monopolies. Much better support for poor people so they don't resort to crime. Higher minimum wages so low socioeconomic people can afford to live and spend it into their communities. Running prisons to reform rather than profit. Even better public transit systems.
    Unfortunately, I don't see any cultural changes on the horizon.

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    46137
    1. Re:Corporatism by iggymanz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      really, my relatives in Europe hate the healthcare system, waiting months for what should be urgent surgery. they make a lot less money too. We have a couple inner city subcultures (which are economically dependent by the socialism we do have here) that commit most the crime, that isn't a "poor" problem. By the way, some of those european countries are also recently dealing with their newborn criminal classes making violent crime.

    2. Re:Corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of europe is not the same. Be more spesific.

    3. Re:Corporatism by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      quite true, all of Europe is not the same. But the post I was replying to was implying all European places with their socialism were just peachy. Maybe something else makes a place peachy, or not.

    4. Re:Corporatism by gweihir · · Score: 2

      Do they maybe live in the UK?

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    5. Re:Corporatism by gweihir · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Pretty accurate. Building infrastructure and safety-nets is not socialism in any way. It just shows the level of ignorance of most US citizens that they think it is.

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      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    6. Re:Corporatism by BitterOak · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The USA has a unique culture that was bought by the Puritan work ethic that promoted individualism and self improvement. A good explanation is the three stages of maturity. Dependance (child), Independance (teen), Interdependence (adult) The USA seems to revere Independence, where Europe, Oceania focus more on interdependence.

      Americans confuse this with socialism/communism and have a great fear that someone may undeservedly benefit from their labor. I can assure you being in one of these 'socialist' countries, that the benefits outweigh disadvantages.

      You may regard America as being immature (teenage, as you call it) but it's worked remarkably well. Look how much of the technology and innovation that is used today all over the world has come from America, a relatively small country as a fraction of the world's population: electric lighting, telecommunications, audio recording, motion pictures, aircraft, solid state electronics (transistors, integrated circuits, microchips), electronic computers, GPS, mass produced consumer priced automobiles, the Internet. And companies like Microsoft, Facebook, Apple, which although not perfect, have changed the way people live all over the world. All this from America. I guess it's pretty amazing what "teenagers" can do and I for one hope that America never grows up!

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    7. Re:Corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look how much of the technology and innovation that is used today all over the world has come from America

      Rather, look how much of those were done by immigrants from the rest of the world who came to America.

      Now thanks to the wave of xenophobia in the past two decade, and now Trump, it will dry up, the effect will be seen the coming decades.

    8. Re:Corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Radio came from Europe.
      Aircraft came from Europe (and Richard Pierce in NZ was possibly the first with Powered Flight)
      Rail came from Britain
      The Jet Engine was British
      The computer came from Britain
      The Web came from Europe
      Printing press Europe
      etc etc etc etc etc.

      The USA did well from the 1940-1970s because their cities and infrastructure were not bombed during WWII, they made money selling weapons and then made money selling everything needed to rebuild europe/Asia. The USA was able to progress while other countries rebuilt. That is not an indication that the USA was "great" but simply lucky.
      During the 1950s the US accounted for over 50% of the worlds GDP, now its about 20% and falling.
      Not because the USA has done anything wrong, its because other countries have modernised and are no longer dependant on the USA for food, technology, medicine, etc etc etc.

      The USA is not the centre of the universe, the centre of everything good, or anything else.
      When it comes to Health, Welfare,education, honesty, law and order, social mobility, "happiness", etc etc the USA does not do that well.

    9. Re:Corporatism by BitterOak · · Score: 1

      Look how much of the technology and innovation that is used today all over the world has come from America

      Rather, look how much of those were done by immigrants from the rest of the world who came to America.

      Now thanks to the wave of xenophobia in the past two decade, and now Trump, it will dry up, the effect will be seen the coming decades.

      I agree 100%. But those immigrants did all that great stuff after coming to America. There's a reason for that. I agree totally about the dangers of xenophobia and Trump's immigration policies. America is a nation of immigrants and that's in part what makes it a great country. I hope that isn't lost.

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    10. Re:Corporatism by rtb61 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      They are not immature or teenage with no reason. Basically US society poisoned itself with lead (lead in petrol, lead water pipes WTF and firing lead at rifle ranges), the current decision markers being the worst of the lot. Millennials with much lower levels of lead seem to be pretty much on a path to recovery and the problems will resolve itself as they become the decision makers. Other countries decision markers also suffered, just not as badly as the US and their millennial generations are also making improvements.

      Lead poisoning, lower IQ, reduce morals and reduce thoughtfulness (higher crime at all levels). Basically those in charge are full of lead and full of shit, just lying about everything, cheating as a rule and stealing when ever they think they can get away with it. They have not the slightest qualm about screaming lies into your face over and over and over again, even when they know, you know they are lying, they don't care, they just scream the same right wing lies until you give up and walk away (the idiots think they have won but you just ignore them from then on it and work around them). Coming from the lead addled generation, I know I can not change what my generation is doing, all I can do is mitigate the harm they cause (if you have some to spare, you don't suffer that badly, not that I appreciate the theft of intellect committed by greedy fuckwit dead dog dick sucking arse holes, who should be condemned to the hell of strangling beads). People should be really pissed off, between 10 and 20 IQ points stolen across the whole of society to feed the greed of a fuckwit minority, only morons would not be infuriated by the thought of 20 IQ points be destroyed, smart people know exactly the impact of 20 more IQ points and how it advantages them.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    11. Re:Corporatism by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Puritans were a very small minority in the colonies. But because much of the history the Europeans in America were very often on the frontier, they had to be independent and interdependent only in a small communities, and this probably had more to do with bringing about the modern work ethic than the Massachusetts colony.

    12. Re:Corporatism by argStyopa · · Score: 2

      I wouldn't say it was purely the Puritan work ethic, but something much simpler: nearly *everyone* (save the tiny % of native Americans and the small population of slaves) that came to the US chose to 'roll the dice' on their future, or is descended from such people. I think the outlook, even perhaps genetically, is for an inherently greater tolerance of risk for a potentially better outcome. Is a penchant for gambling an inheritable characteristic?

      The result is that the even American families at the poverty line live better than the European average.

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/t...

      The US has an abundance of food, is responsible for most of the of the world's modern innovations and conveniences, and is generally wealthier.

      I wouldn't disagree with you in your comparison of the US emotionally, developmentally as an adolescent or young adult, while the European states are far more like mature adults. Then again, most peoples' great accomplishments in invention, math, science, etc are in their 20s, not their 40s or 50s or later.

      Which strategy is better - gain maximizing or loss minimizing? I don't believe there IS a 'better' - just different eventual outcomes.

      --
      -Styopa
    13. Re:Corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of the US is not the same. Be more specific.

    14. Re:Corporatism by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Most conservatives in the US do not have a problem with infrastructure and safety nets. What we have a problem with is stupid spending on infrastructure (spending money on a high speed train - with no defined path - when we have crumbling bridges, roads and dams) and letting people live their lives on the safety net - which is supposed to be there to catch people who occasionally slip.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    15. Re:Corporatism by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      People came to the USA for independence, there is the *independence day*, there is no *interdependence day*

      I lived in many countries in my life, I value independence and individualism above all else and I am far from a Puritan.

      AFAIC freedom trumps convenience and any feeling of safety. I do not cooperate by decree, I do not collaborate by force, I do not see you as anything but a trade partner if you can offer me something of value to me on voluntary basis. I am not part of anything greater than myself and will not be part of any group. You cannot make me fight a war for you, you cannot make me work for you. You can trade with me if you find what I produce of value to you voluntarily.

      That is all you can expect from me and I am telling you this upfront openly so you know not to expect any sacrifice on my part. I make rational decisions for my own benefit. I consider all coercion to be damaging to me. I exist for myself and maybe my close relatives and possibly a friend, that is all.

    16. Re:Corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The caps key is there for a reason. The reason is not "to serve as your emotional outlet".

    17. Re:Corporatism by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      they made money selling weapons and then made money selling everything needed to rebuild europe/Asia. The USA was able to progress while other countries rebuilt

      On top of that, the US and the USSR split the german scientists between them and US universities were in a position to offer top researchers from European cities much more resources if they relocated. Some left when the second world war looked inevitable, a lot more left after it finished when they got much better offers in the US and no longer had a sense of being unpatriotic abandoning their country in a time of war. Throughout the cold war, the US actively pursued a policy of encouraging the best minds from elsewhere to relocate.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    18. Re:Corporatism by GNious · · Score: 2

      ... and letting people live their lives on the safety net - which is supposed to be there to catch people who occasionally slip.

      That would mean that there's a way up from the safety net

      43-48 million Americans live in poverty
      564 thousand Americans are homeless (44% have some paid work)
      20-odd million Americans pays more than 30% of income on rent, and almost half of renters are at risk of not being able to pay next month's rent
      643 thousands go bankrupt from medical expenses, every year

      There are just holes too deep for many Americans to dig themselves out of, and the system is seemingly not geared to help them.

    19. Re:Corporatism by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      really, my relatives in Europe hate the healthcare system, waiting months for what should be urgent surgery.

      [citation needed]

      And no, not a random anecdote, either. Show some figures.

      they make a lot less money too.

      If their middle class is not disappearing, then the median income must be significantly higher. Ours is going away.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    20. Re:Corporatism by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The result is that the even American families at the poverty line live better than the European average.

      But do you have a credible citation? Forbes regularly posts unfounded FUD, and they also have been known to distribute malware from their site so no self-respecting Slashdotter would even go there to begin with.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    21. Re:Corporatism by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      And where are your relatives living with their 'socialism' ?

    22. Re:Corporatism by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      I won't pretend that healthcare is perfect in the EU, but compared to the US... People aren't worried they will die because they ran out of money and went bankrupt, screwing over their family in the process. People aren't made homeless by preventable diseases that they couldn't afford the medicine to prevent.

      And for the most part, the system works pretty well for the majority. If you have the money you can still pay a private doctor too.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    23. Re:Corporatism by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      How much of that is due to not being bombed during the second world war?

      Also, the British made the first electronic computer and invented the World Wide Web, and we had ARM... We invented television too. Considering our population is only a fraction of the US... I'd suggest that this method of measuring success is flawed.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    24. Re:Corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not, it fits the rest of the post.

      Feels without numbers or reason to back it up. Just capitalize random words together with the written equivalence of stomping in the ground and slamming a door.

      The only thing missing is typing out "period".

    25. Re:Corporatism by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      What we have a problem with is stupid spending on infrastructure (spending money on a high speed train - with no defined path - when we have crumbling bridges, roads and dams)

      But if I might note, here in soggy Pennsylvania, we have gone on a big spree of road infrastructure repair. They are doing a darn good job as well. That's the good part. But in one of those weird twists of reality, it took a tax increase on fuel to do it. It wasn't the so called liberals who didn't understand that it takes money to do things.

      and letting people live their lives on the safety net - which is supposed to be there to catch people who occasionally slip.

      I hate and loathe lazy people. That fact out of the way, what is the path forward? If you are working a minimum wage job, you are still eligible for government benefits. So whatever the abuser of the government does, they are still abusing the government unless they get a relatively high paying job.

      Our problem is that we don't have a path forward. For as much fun as it is to blame the poor for their poorness, unskilled jobs are disappearing.

      I worked my life several steps up the social ladder. While proof that it can be done, it was pretty difficult. I can assure you that most people who are born on a much higher rung don't have the drive to do what I did.

      And the slightly insane idea that anyone can be anything they want to be simply cannot make a person who is doing well to get their shoes tied into a Programmer or rocket scientist. Ain't happening. Both conservatives and liberals fall into that trap. Liberals because it is sooooo mean to point out that some folks aren't all that smart, and conservatives because it doesn't fit the narrative of poor people being 100 percent responsible for their poverty, and that all anyone has to do is apply themselves, and they can be President. Just a little bit of work, and you're rollin' in gold.

      So what do the poor do to bootstrap themselves out of their self induced situation? Eat cake?

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    26. Re:Corporatism by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      There are just holes too deep for many Americans to dig themselves out of, and the system is seemingly not geared to help them.

      Just be rich. Its so simple, I don't know why those lazy poor people can't figure it out.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    27. Re:Corporatism by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      First, you'd think someone whose been here a while would be more grown up than to toss around that bullshit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Second, to your actual point:
      https://mises.org/blog/poor-us...

      http://www.dailywire.com/news/...

      http://www.heritage.org/povert...

      "...The average "poor" American lives in a larger house or apartment than does the average West European (This is the average West European, not poor West Europeans). Poor Americans eat far more meat, are more likely to own cars and dishwashers, and are more likely to have basic modern amenities such as indoor toilets than is the general West European population.

      "Poor" Americans consume three times as much meat each year and are 40 percent more likely to own a car than the average Japanese. And the average Japanese is 22 times more likely to live without an indoor flush toilet than is a poor American...."

      --
      -Styopa
    28. Re:Corporatism by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      three countries which I will not name, instead point out that merely having "socialism" for public healthcare does not make for a better situation than the USA. As aside, so interesting "Obamacare", based on a Republican plan, had no robust public option

    29. Re:Corporatism by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      "three countries which I will not name, instead point out that merely having "socialism" for public healthcare does not make for a better situation than the USA"

      If you do not name the countries or define what you mean by "socialism health care", then what is it that "does not make for a better situation than the USA".

    30. Re:Corporatism by gweihir · · Score: 1

      You misunderstand what the purpose of a safety net is. Probably because you are arrogant and stupid enough to think that _you_ will certainly not need one long-term and those that do be damned. Well, I can only wish for you to actually need it and if you do, then think of this exchange. Also reminds me of Ayn Rand that preached any kind of dependency on welfare was the devil....until she needed (and took) it herself.

      You people do not live what you preach. You are liars and delusional. And you are evil because you see nothing wrong with people that are desperately in need of help not getting it.

      --
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    31. Re:Corporatism by gweihir · · Score: 2

      These numbers are pathetic. Sounds much more like the stats a 3rd world country would have.

      --
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    32. Re:Corporatism by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Well, disregarding your comment about lazy people (am a lazy person, but my finances are in a pretty good state and all that from real work, no speculation, sales or other ways to rip off people or society), I do agree on most things you say. In particular unskilled and low-skill jobs are vanishing and they do so globally. And there is a large group of people that cannot do anything else and it is not due to a lack of education. The talents they have just do not stretch to anything more complicated.

      The idea that anybody can be anything they want is not only slightly insane, it is also one that only people with not too good mental skills can have. If you have ever seen a friend really struggling with mathematics or engineering subjects, full time and with all they had and with help from friends and they still did not get it, then you realize that we all have mental limits and for many of us they are pretty low. Same goes for physical limits, some people are just not good with their hands. What are these people to do if there are no jobs that match what they can do? Sell their organs?

      Now thinking that all these people are _of_ _course_ at fault themselves is the mentally lazy way out (and that is one kind of laziness I cannot stand either), because then it is not your problem. That stance is fundamentally inhumane.

      BTW, love the Marie Antoinette faux quote!

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    33. Re:Corporatism by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Hi there. Been bankrupt. Been homeless. Only one in my entire family (from four immigrant grandparents until today) to graduate from high school, let alone college. Oh, I know about safety nets. I also know that most of my family are below average income - but still provide for themselves. Yes, it can be done. It was a ton of effort and work to get back to where I am - a nice home in Ventura, a car, a motorcycle, and a nicely growing 401K. But it can be done.

      You people dp not believe what you preach. You want to keep people down and dependent upon you and the Government because you get off on "being the white knight" saving people, and you want the power and dependency that comes with it. You see people in need of help and think "I can have them love me because I help them to be a bit better than they are today" rather than really desire to help them permanently escape the dependency your side relies upon.

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    34. Re:Corporatism by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      All that safety net addition in the last Administration did nothing, apparently. Likewise during the Clinton years - it wasn't until welfare reform was pushed through that the poverty rate started to drop. You sound all nice and intellectual and high-minded, but the reality is that if you make it easy to stay in the safety net - a good percentage of people will choose to do so. When you make staying in the safety net harder - you'll find a lot leave it, and the only ones that stay there probably truly need it.

      Our Federal Government spends about $1000 per MONTH per man, woman and child in these United States. Of that $1000, about $700 of it is on social welfare (medicare/medicaid, social security, welfare, unemployment, SNAP, etc.). How much more needs to be spent - per person - to solve your issues? Do you have a number you can give us? Apparently $8,400 per man, woman, and child per year doesn't do it - how much more?

      Assuming your statistics above are correct, if the spending was just on those who live in poverty, are homeless, and go bankrupt, that would be about $56,000 per year per person - those who need the safety net. That is well above the the median income in the US, and one would think it would empty the safety net entirely - yet it doesn't solve the issue. Why? Because of rampant waste and misuse of those social funds. Note that I am only talking about spending RIGHT NOW on social welfare - not redirecting EPA, transportation, debt interest, defense, etc. We are supposedly spending tens of thousands of dollars a year per person in the safety net - and we see their numbers increase, not decrease. Why is that? Why aren't we able to help people out?

      I propose it's not because of the amount of spending being too little - but that we make it too easy to stay in the net. And there are strong political and financial benefits to many in Government by keeping that safety net full of dependents.

      So I ask you: how much spending should we do to help those in the safety net - a nice solid number or reference (such as we should spend up to XX% of the median personal income), and should we help people out - or just leave them in it?

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    35. Re:Corporatism by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Nah, be asian, at least graduate high school, and realize you'll start to get way ahead the older you get. Median income is well above the poverty rate, and I don't think most people would consider $4700 per month as "rich".

      --
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    36. Re:Corporatism by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      I wish out here in California (State Motto: we haven't taxed enough until everyone is on the public teat), we're spending hundreds of billions on high speed rail with no plan for a route, ensuring that people here illegally get better benefits than legal State residents, and for every dollar you spend on roads we spend $4.70. Even though our gas tax is supposed to be used exclusively for roads, much of it is spent on non-transportation issues. So we also raised our gas taxes but I fear we'll see most of that go to the general fund and not to what it's supposed to support...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    37. Re:Corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you're both crazy and polarizing the issues.
      find some middle ground and actually get something done.

    38. Re:Corporatism by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Fascinating. I do agree that for somebody as mentally deranged as you apparently are, it is quite an accomplishment to be economically self-sufficient. And no, I have zero ambition to be anybodies "hero" in this repulsive fashion, i.e. by "keeping them down". And while I have not been formally bankrupt, I have had a "close to zero money and no paying job" situation as well two times in my life. I _know_ how easy it is to get into that situation. I also have some very valuable skills, so it was easy to get out of that again, but many people do not have this advantage.

      A look at actual facts shows that many people cannot provide for themselves and for some of them that is a long-term situation. A friend of mine currently is in that: He has a recently developed anxiety-issue that prevents him from working in a room with other people when he cannot leave at any time he wants to. This is in no way his fault, and he is willing to work. Yet with the skills he has, there are no opportunities and no employers that will let him work from home. Also, therapy (the only thing that helps) has a predicted time to cure of at least several additional years (he already has done 2 years of it, and it did help a bit, but things are going very slowly). So, is this somebody that people "like me" want to "keep down"?

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    39. Re:Corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every last person in the US is an immigrant or descendent of an immigrant (including the land bridge crossing), but America was described as "immature". Are these immigrants immature before or after they immigrate?

      Attracting the world's best and brightest has helped the US immensely, but that wouldn't have happened without a culture that appreciates and facilitates innovation. Europe hasn't really had that for quite a while.

      Anyway, any xenophobia in the US isn't directed at the world's "best and brightest". They aren't the ones streaming across the border with nothing but the clothes on their back.

    40. Re:Corporatism by chihowa · · Score: 1

      The second world war that was started by Europeans (who narcissistically saw themselves as "the world"), after how many centuries of endless wars?

      Historically, you guys not being bloodthirsty warmongers and colonial oppressors is just a recent and short downtick. It's good to see that you haven't let yourselves get all self-righteous about it!

      --
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    41. Re: Corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Computer from europe? So what? You seem to forget that it was the US that invtented the microprocessor. I.e. modern computers were invented here too.

      I bet you'll say Ada Lovelace invented programming (no) and Steve Jobs was more important than Dennis Richte too!

    42. Re:Corporatism by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      TIL Pearl Harbor is in Yurp.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    43. Re:Corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All that and your objection is to the parenthetical statement... and even still your response is to point out that the US, and not the aggressor, Japan, is not is Europe.

      Nice work.

    44. Re: Corporatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your figures are all wrong. Statistically, the increase in Hispanic immigrants to the USA coincides with the development if the internet and faster computers. Clearly we need to triple the immigrant population to make computer 10x as fast and broadband 50% faster.

      Or maybe anyone can abuse statistical correlations to make crazy nut job points.

  6. Unmeasurable by whoever57 · · Score: 2

    The United States and European Union have, at least since the Reagan Administration, differed on this point: the U.S. is primarily concerned with consumer welfare, and the primary proxy is price. In other words, as long as prices do not increase -- or even better, decrease -- there is, by definition, no illegal behavior.

    But you can't measure the difference between price in the case of a monopoly and price in the case of a competitive market. One or other won't exist. Of course, that's probably the objective of using price as the measure.

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  7. Trivial to switch search engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unlike when msft made it hard to use another browser on Windows, it's trivial for Europeans to use another search engine, if they find that Google biases search. TFA was so much academic blather.

    Personally, Google ought to back out of the EU - turn it off for a month - take the ad revenue hit, just to make a point. Have the voters revolt.

    ---

    In other news, a lyft driver in sfo told me that the balance seems to be shifting between lyft and Uber...

    1. Re: Trivial to switch search engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not about switching search engines. It's about misusing your dominant position in search to give you an unfair advantage in other areas.

    2. Re: Trivial to switch search engines by najajomo · · Score: 1

      "It's not about switching search engines. It's about misusing your dominant position in search to give you an unfair advantage in other areas."

      Who is forcing us to use Google and isn't Microsoft already hijacking search on Windows 10, and giving it's own search engine prime place on the desktop, bottom left right next to the START icon, why is no one complaining about that to the EU.

    3. Re: Trivial to switch search engines by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      Who is forcing us to use Google

      You just quoted the previous guy telling you it's not about switching search engines. The charge isn't that you're being forced to use search. The charge is that you're being forced to use shopping because you already use search. It's irrelevant why you use search.

      You can go ahead and think *that* rule is bullshit but it never had anything to do with switching search engines, it had to do with shopping. It's not illegal to have a monopoly or dominant market position, and therefore it doesn't matter how easy it is for somebody to skip participating in the monopoly, the fact is that they have a dominant market position regardless.

      why is no one complaining about that [Microsoft 'hijacking' search] to the EU.

      First, they are -- it's not working though , for all the reasons you just finished describing -- you just finished asking who is forcing you to use Google, implying that people are able to choose Google, implying that Microsoft is not able to stop them, implying that Microsoft either does not have or is not abusing a dominant adjacent market. If you see Bing become dominant and you can provide evidence that a dominant share of searches come from Microsoft-aligned products (hint: Android phones mean they don't), then you might be able to build a case.

      These are frustrating conversations to me. I don't really like the incarnations of antitrust law in either the US or the EU. They have some cure-worse-than-the-disease properties. But it's clear most people haven't taken the time to even understand the argument, since a zillion people will point out that it's easy to switch away from Google by typing some other made-up word into the address bar, as though that matters at all.

  8. The EU is full of shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Google isn't forcing anyone to use their services. It's just that the EU is bankrupt, morally and financially, so they're just looking for a way to steal money. Who can blame them? It's how they are. Europe has always the world's troublemaker. If not for the USA they would still be in constant feudal warfare... Thank god for America! Still the greatest country in the history of the universe. But they've let this go on too long. It's time to finish the war.

    1. Re:The EU is full of shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All this coming from someone living in the most violent country of the civilized world, who just elected as president a man who's basically mentally insane, and who's people are so incredibly divided and polarized that they're on the brink of another civil war.

      Of course, you may have just be trolling. Congratulation then, I bit.

    2. Re:The EU is full of shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ignorant fool

    3. Re:The EU is full of shit by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Funny. All your rant shows is your ignorance.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    4. Re:The EU is full of shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the most violent country of the civilized world

      Can't rule the world any other way. Bow down, or be run down. Your choice

      they're on the brink of another civil war.

      Oh! The hysteria! Trump is the True American President. This is how it looks without the facade. Even Putin wishes he could be as cool. The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

    5. Re:The EU is full of shit by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      It's funny how much the left adored Trump when he was a New York liberal, backing Democrats for office. Now that he is trying to fix the ruin left by the last few presidents, he is 'insane'.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    6. Re:The EU is full of shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "civilized world" HA! The civilized world is pretty much confined to Iceland right now, when they're sober anyway. But even they have to lock up the women at sunset.

      So please, don't try to lecture the country that's best at what it does. The Europeans are still savages that have never seen the stability and freedom they enjoy today. All thanks to the USA. So, you're welcome!

    7. Re:The EU is full of shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Left didn't adore Trump. What are you talking about? Give citations. There's a history of mockery going back decades, but it became relevant when Trump became relevant outside of New York. Prior to that he was the douche on the Apprentice, and before that he was Lex Luthor.

      Dude used to donate to both parties, like many extremely wealthy businesspeople.

  9. So basically short-sighted vs. not? by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Fits.

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  10. Look at the pharma industry by Snotnose · · Score: 2

    That tells you competition is vital, otherwise companies raise prices as high as they can.

    In other words, the EU is correct, the US is wrong (again).

    1. Re:Look at the pharma industry by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      It does help when the pharma CEO's daddy is a high ranking Democratic Senator.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
  11. Ordoliberalism by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    EU is influenced by German ordoliberalism, which considers that the market is the goal.

    US is much more pragmatic and just want to fix one of capitalism's flaws that promotes its self-destruction.

  12. this seems wrong-premised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The break up of AT&T happened under Reagan. And it certainly could not have happened because of prices. There was nothing to compare the prices to. AT&T had absolute monopoly on the phone lines. Phone call prices were not rising faster than the rate of inflation. And yet the company was broken up because it was a monopoly. The fact that is subsequently nearly remerged is irrelevant, by the way. It still goes contrary to the premise of the article, which contends that it is the US regulators' actions were driven exclusively by prices.

    1. Re:this seems wrong-premised by jmcharry · · Score: 1

      I think the case was started under President Carter and the resolution proposed by AT&T itself, but the comment is insightful. As I recall, and I'm that old, it had become clear that the monopoly was holding up progress, keeping prices high in the face of face of falling costs, and restraining technical advances. The Carterfone (no known relationship) case comes to mind.

    2. Re:this seems wrong-premised by packrat0x · · Score: 1

      The specific case started in 1974 (Ford), but the anti-trust drama started in 1956 (Eisenhower).

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      227-3517
  13. Looks to me to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Be a LEFT Agenda is the Only Headlines I see on slashdot These days Tell me why that is???

  14. No one can measure a price paid in bias. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google doesn't deal in simple transactions, money for a product.

    They scrape the web, and everything else they can get at, for data the public might view on their own, then show suggestions and glimpses in return for knowing what you're interested in and the opportunity of manipulating your decisions.

    The real price is the effect. Google provides information: tailored, censored, and selective to serve their purposes, and those of whoever pays them. How do you put a dollar figure on manipulation?

  15. Problem with prices centered approach of US by gurps_npc · · Score: 2

    1) Some services cost no money but are still a monopoly instead they cost other things, such as privacy. Prime example: Facebook.

    2) When technology is advancing fast, prices drop. Or they do if their is competition. But a monopoly could simply maintain their current price and claim "Hey, we aren't anti-competitive, our prices haven't changed. We still sell our phone with a 1 MP camera, 2 inch display, and 5 whole megabytes of memory for a mere $749, just like we did in 1999."

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    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Problem with prices centered approach of US by vakuona · · Score: 1

      Google and Facebook's service do not cost money to their direct users. They cost money to advertisers. Google and Facebook build audiences, and then sell access to them.

      If they get this wrong, and show their audiences the wrong sort of adverts, they do not make any money.

      Prices won't drop because of technological improvements. What is being sold is finite real estate - space on user screens. This is basically being auctioned, and therefore prices will nearly always remain high. The only reason for prices to drop is if the audience drops - e.g. people spend less time and search less often on Google.

    2. Re:Problem with prices centered approach of US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Telecoms love #2, selling the same old crap for as much as they can without improving the infrastructure to keep up quality of service as more people are added to the same lines

  16. The EU $2.7 billion fine levied on Google by najajomo · · Score: 1

    How much did the Microsoft proxies spend on this campaign, as we all know who's really back of it. Microsoft has been desperate to catch up to Google for ages.

  17. important distinction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It hit me recently there is a fundamental difference between what the USA idealizes in democracy/freedom and what continental Europe does and it boils down to this. In a free democratic society two huge factors are individual liberty and equality. USA democracy (and to some extent other heavily British influenced democracies) prioritize individual liberty over equality whereas France and other continental democracies prioritize equality over liberty.