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Microsoft 'Cuts The Cord' With A Local Power Utility To Pursue Greener Energy (seattletimes.com)

Frosty Piss summarizes the Seattle Times: Microsoft will bypass Puget Sound Energy to secure carbon-free power on wholesale markets under an agreement with state regulators. In 2015, 60 percent of PSE electricity came from coal and natural-gas plants, according to company statistics. The agreement calls for Microsoft to pay a $23.6 million transition fee to Puget Sound Energy, which the utility will pass on to its Western Washington customers... But the settlement does not address one major financial issue that hangs over PSE and its customers -- how to handle the costs of shutting down coal-fired units in the Colstrip, Montana, power station... State regulators and Puget Sound Energy determined that Microsoft is legally responsible for a share of the Colstrip, Montana coal-fired generating plant costs.

62 comments

  1. "Your right to swing your fist... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...ends where another man's face begins."

        -- Voltaire

    1. Re:"Your right to swing your fist... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Your right to cut the cord ends where the demarcation box begins."

          -- Comcast

  2. nimby by Microsoft by turkeydance · · Score: 1

    nothing in montana bothers you

  3. Of course they say Microsoft owes money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After all, if they can get Microsoft to pay for it, it looks better on their books.

    Of course, if the WPPSS had completed the entire set of nuclear plants, they probably wouldn't be burning coal in Montana.

  4. No cord cutting in TFA by ls671 · · Score: 1

    There is no mention of "cord cutting" in TFA. The power company will just route "cleaner energy" to MS through the existing network.

    --
    Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    1. Re:No cord cutting in TFA by DaMattster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is no mention of "cord cutting" in TFA. The power company will just route "cleaner energy" to MS through the existing network.

      No only that, but PSE is going to be stuck with the clean-up costs of the sites containing the coal-fired energy generation plants. Microsoft used the system under the guise of clean energy to avoid having to take responsibility for any site remediation. Microsoft is just one more proof that no company does anything out of altruism - they do not really give a rat's ass about where the energy comes from, so long as its supply is never (or rarely) disrupted and they can keep their data centers churning out services for outlook.com. I am so glad to be completely free of Microsoft since 1998 when I discovered OpenBSD.

    2. Re:No cord cutting in TFA by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      There is no mention of "cord cutting" in TFA. The power company will just route "cleaner energy" to MS through the existing network.

      You're being pedantic.

      "Cutting the cord" is a phrase that means they will not be buying energy from the utility, which comes from a number of sources including coal and other "unsustainable" and dirty sources. Instead they will contract and buy from "green" sources that will then me routed into the pool of power that the utility then delivers to MS.

      Seriously, think it through. :)

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    3. Re:No cord cutting in TFA by ls671 · · Score: 1

      Maybe it's just me indeed. But, for me:
      "cutting the cord" != having your provider setup new gateways

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    4. Re:No cord cutting in TFA by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 2

      Maybe it's just me indeed. But, for me:
      "cutting the cord" != having your provider setup new gateways

      Yes and no...

      to end your connection with someone, OR to stop depending on their support

      http://www.macmillandictionary...

      Synonyms include: "finish with" a relationship, which may or may not include all components of the relationship. So there would be several possibilities including Microsoft setting up a giant wind farm or tons of solar on their Redmond campus, or simply (as is the case) not buying energy from the local utility while still using the infrastructure.

      But this raises a question: The huge one time payment not withstanding, it seems to me that even though they will purchase their energy from some other source, they still use the utility's wires, so there should be some continuing expense for the use of that infrastructure, shouldn't there be? I haven't read anything about that.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    5. Re:No cord cutting in TFA by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No only that, but PSE is going to be stuck with the clean-up costs of the sites containing the coal-fired energy generation plants.

      There is this:

      The agreement calls for Microsoft to pay a $23.6âmillion transition fee to PSE, which the utility will pass on to its Western Washington customers.

      A "transition fee"... What does this mean? They have to pay not use the utility? I'm not saying the fee is bad, just that the story doesn't say what this fee is for. Reading the actual agreement suggests that the costs of the Montana clean-up is still an open issue and will be litigated.

      Now, Microsoft "dislike" aside, and for the sake of argument let's suppose it was some other big customer, why should they pay anything for the clean-up and shut-down of the Montana coal plant? Did Microsoft (or any other big customer) have some powerful say in the construction of this plant? A choice not to support it's use? Is there some compelling reason why Microsoft (or any other customer) should pay for Puget Sound Energy's ill-advised reliance on an energy resource that was almost certainly environmentally questionable when the plant was built?

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    6. Re:No cord cutting in TFA by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 1

      I am so glad to be completely free of Microsoft since 1998 when I discovered OpenBSD.

      Ok, but just how aware of where their power comes from do you think OpenBSD is? Find a different reason to hate Microsoft because that one's lame.

    7. Re: No cord cutting in TFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Cutting thr cord meand cutting wires for real. Then, use solar panels or windmills on-site.

      Routing green energy 'from afar' is a scam: If the local coal plant fail, the region will blackout. Ms will not get power then, even if the remote green plant is up.

      Similiarly, if the green plant fails, ms will have power as long as the coal thing is up. Perhaps the green company will loose income in such a case, but any "green power through the grid" is a scam. Most og your power comes from the closest power plant, no matter who you pay.

    8. Re:No cord cutting in TFA by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      There is no mention of "cord cutting" in TFA.

      My dysfunctional English Wackyparser read this as "curd cutting", which would kinda sorta make sense since "cutting the cheese" causes a big stink, as well.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    9. Re: No cord cutting in TFA by ls671 · · Score: 1

      This is exactly what I thought at first. Well, it seems like you viewed it the same.

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    10. Re:No cord cutting in TFA by FooAtWFU · · Score: 2

      I assume that, like most huge data centers with enormous power drains, their needs were involved in the planning of and construction of regional power plants, so having a fee associated with a shutdown or changeover makes lots of sense.

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    11. Re:No cord cutting in TFA by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Shutdown as a result of blindly pulling out, yes. But this sounds like a shutdown as a result of the utility's bad planning and lack of foresight. It looks like the utility is trying to stick and external customer with the bill for being a "victim" of a changing time.

      This isn't a case of MS not using that power anymore. It's a case of MS saying "you screwed up and we don't want to be part of your screw up"

    12. Re:No cord cutting in TFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So Microsoft should be allowed to shirk those costs and stick them onto the remaining customers of PSE?

  5. Climate change deniers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Yet another example of why the climate change deniers are just irrelevent. Let them scream, argue, bitch and moan, lie about the " war on coal" like Mitch McConnell (R- retard) does, but in the end, they are nothing.

    Things are changing and things as being done - regardless of the Republicans quest to turn this country and World into a hot backwards theocratic shithole.

    1. Re:Climate change deniers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry I wrote this in anger but really I am very religious and voted for Trump. I just get angry sometimes. Please forgive.

    2. Re:Climate change deniers by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Yet another example of why the climate change deniers are just irrelevent. Let them scream, argue, bitch and moan, lie about the " war on coal" like Mitch McConnell (R- retard) does, but in the end, they are nothing.

      Things are changing and things as being done - regardless of the Republicans quest to turn this country and World into a hot backwards theocratic shithole.

      The process of handing leadership to the world has accelerated, and the deniers are pleased that Science, something that they do not believe in at all, is properly ignored in the administration of their dear leader https://www.vox.com/energy-and... which is as it should be.

      The Republican's have found the ultimate loophole. With a vote, or with an election, the entire set of the laws of physics can be nullified.

      But to be serious, as American tunnels down this anti-science mineshaft, we are ceding leadership in science, soon engineering, and eventually economically, as we intentionally pave the way for the Chinese yuan to ascend to the world's standard currency.

      These things are connected. You don't stay competitive in a global market by ignoring science and technology. You don't continue military superiority if you don't utilize science advances, and the technology that follows hand in hand. And if you have neither, as you slip and slide backwards, another country is all too happy to take your place.

      We have taught the new generation of non-US scientists and engineers, and they are returning to their home countries to move into the future, while we hand our money over to a few folks and prepare to enjoy our slipping into second world status.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    3. Re:Climate change deniers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      can we just stop with pulling the climate change card on every fucking issue like this. Their are plenty of reasons to do this even without climate change. The US is a polluted mess, you have to go somewhere like China to find a more disgusting place with as dirty air. polluted air kills people and degrades our standard of living, climate change could be a huge hoax and this would still be valuable.

    4. Re:Climate change deniers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is just all a PR move just like "carbon credits" There is absolutely no way MS or anyone else can know exactly where the power coming in on their utility came from, unless they are generating it all themselves. Power from multiple sources is all commingled on the utility line, and comes from whatever source is cheapest at the time, or if a particular plant is offline for maintenance power generation is ramped up at alternate plants. In some cases plants are kept offline as peaking generation, like in the hot months when AC use peaks, or the cold months when heating peaks.

      We have one of those here in Tampa for our hot months, a natural gas jet turbine plant. Since they are jet engines they can be spun up and down very quickly depending on power demands http://www.tampaelectric.com/company/ourpowersystem/powergeneration/bayside/

    5. Re:Climate change deniers by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Drooling SJw globalist bullshit. Warmists never win! You ought to have your tongue cut-out and served at Seattle Pike Place Market along with catfish and raw perch-roe.

      Oh, such internet muscles. Come back when you can talk with the adults.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    6. Re:Climate change deniers by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Anyone who thought my post was offtopic needs to read it again - if they dare. Renewables are connected with climate change, and the opposition to them is both anti-science and denialism. But it's the same attitude - denialists think that they can change the laws of physics with their opinion. I understand that the House of REpresentatives has come up with a way to create superconductors by having a vote to repeal Ohm's Law.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  6. liability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "⦠allows Microsoft to argue it owes nothingâ when Colstripâ(TM)s future is determined..." FK any company that things its customers are liable for the choices it made. PSE is the only one on the hook for how they deal with their coal plants. They made the profit they pay for it.

  7. Come to New England - we have Niagra Falls!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey Microsoft! In New England and much of the northeast, the bulk of the energy comes from Niagra Falls. Water fall power is clean, right?

    1. Re: Come to New England - we have Niagra Falls!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Most"?

      New England alone requires about 25,000 MW and the Moses hydro plant produces only 250 MW at peak. That's only 1%. You guys burn a whole mess of natural gas (~50%) plus nuclear (~30%).

      "Cheap"?

      Of the US states that make up New England, the cost of power in Massachusetts is the cheapest, yet rated 41/51 (includes D.C.) of all US states. New York (home to the Niagara power plant) has the second-highest power costs in the whole country, with only Hawaii being (much) more expensive.

      So don't pretend that electricity in New England is particularly cheap and/or renewable.

      Ref: https://www.iso-ne.com/about/key-stats, http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/10/27/141766341/the-price-of-electricity-in-your-state, and Wikipedia for Niagara capacity.

    2. Re: Come to New England - we have Niagra Falls!! by ls671 · · Score: 2

      Quebec is 99% hydro, go to Quebec then...

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    3. Re: Come to New England - we have Niagra Falls!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hillary Clinton was n.y. senator and their power supply is corrupt... coincidence?

    4. Re: Come to New England - we have Niagra Falls!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      please do not encourage Americans to come to Quebec. Canada is a relatively clean and beautiful country, lets keep it that way.

    5. Re: Come to New England - we have Niagra Falls!! by ls671 · · Score: 1

      are you a separatist?

      Hint:
      Google for: "Frank magazine wants to disconnect Julie Payette"

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
  8. So microsoft needs it's own coal fired plants? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm so confused. It sounds like microsoft is paying the energy company to leave them (legal monopoly i assume?) but once MS does leave them they'd have to shut down coal fired 'units' because they were commissioned or at least dedicated to only powering MS so through perverted capitalist logic MS is suddenly partly responsible for the cost of those units because they're not being used to provide them power any more?

    1. Re:So microsoft needs it's own coal fired plants? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MS is going to be building their own Nuclear Power plants so there's enough power to use their upcoming Win10 update. The new power plants will be operated via... Windows 10. It's the same as before except the BSOD will now be RSOD.

    2. Re:So microsoft needs it's own coal fired plants? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm so confused. It sounds like microsoft is paying the energy company to leave them (legal monopoly i assume?)

      Perhaps stupidly, certainly without foresight, Microsoft signed a 20-year exclusive supply contract with PSE. To reduce their carbon footprint they are now obtaining power from other energy providers. The $23.6 million fee is basically an early termination/exit fee to get out of their 20-year contract.

  9. Re: Msmash doesn`t put out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    AGREED. The racist indo chimp won't breed with me either

  10. Microsoft & cord cutting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Excellent, great idea!!!

    For all those who haven't already, please now cut the cord from Microsoft and free yourselves from their heinous greedy fuckery found in all their products and services.

  11. Wow! by johnsmithperson123 · · Score: 0

    For extra money, you can get windmill electrons instead of normal electrons! This is totally not an accounting gimmick that means that you get the same electrons anyway, because the grid kind of, well, mixes and matches.

    1. Re:Wow! by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Power companies do this sort of thing all the time. For instance...

      Back when we still resided in Seattle, (20+ years ago) my wife and I were up in NE Washington on our way home from a vacation in the Canadian Rockies. We decided to take in a dam tour up in that corner of the state. Funny thing was, that dam was owned by Seattle City Light! They weren't sending that electricity over 300 miles of dedicated line over to Seattle, though - they were selling it to local utilities, and through a game of economic musical chairs were in turn eventually getting an equivalent amount of electricity from sources much nearer to Seattle.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    2. Re:Wow! by ls671 · · Score: 2

      You always get the same electrons with AC, they just move back and forth to transmit energy so the electron from the plant never reach you ;-)

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    3. Re:Wow! by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      For extra money, you can get windmill electrons instead of normal electrons! This is totally not an accounting gimmick that means that you get the same electrons anyway, because the grid kind of, well, mixes and matches.

      You're missing the point. Also, Microsoft is in the business of making money, so if the cost didn't work for their accountants, they wouldn't do it because the momentary Public Relations value is, well, momentary.

      And, no one thinks they are getting "different" electrons. Your statement is meaningless blather about nothing.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    4. Re:Wow! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The way the grid is operated is not as simple as people think, it would be interesting to hear from someone that has knowledge of who generates what and who sells it to who in WA, and overall how the market works at that level.

      As residential customers we dont "see" that aspect of it, we're just paying for what we use from a utility for a fixed price.

    5. Re:Wow! by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      The electrons never reach anyone, regardless of whether it's AC or DC.

      At the source, an electron transfer in the valence band of an atom affects the valence band of a nearby atom.

      And so the chain goes.

      It's more a matter of pressure transfer than actual flow.

      No electrons propagate from the source to the destination. Only the force is transmitted.

      This is true at radio frequencies as well, including WiFi charging (or communications).

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    6. Re:Wow! by ls671 · · Score: 1

      What does "DC" mean? Here on /., I only have heard about AC.

      Nah, I won't search the topic because I vaguely remember something similar to what you say so, I will assume that you are correct!
      Thanks,

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    7. Re:Wow! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, you just blew my mind! I always thought the electrons moved/jumped/whatever along from atom to atom.

      With that, the western US is on one grid, does really effing matter who's generating what? The grid has X amount of demand, and there is X amount of total generating capacity. WA has something like 1/3 of the US hydropower capacity, much of it is exported to California via HVDC, but I guess thats not good enough for MS, who is about to dump a problem on PSE. Good one guys.

    8. Re:Wow! by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      This is totally not an accounting gimmick

      Sarcasm aside you hit the nail on the head but for all the wrong reasons. This IS exactly an accounting gimmick designed specifically to drive investment in green energy. If I pay extra on my bill I don't expect a green electron to flow down my cable instead of a black one, but I do expect that money to be transferred to a green energy project.

      Enough green energy projects start up, eventually the black electrons go away completely as the coal plants are no longer viable as customers pay a bit extra to ensure that they don't receive money.

      Accounting, yes
      Gimmick, no.

    9. Re:Wow! by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Reading between the lines, as your sig suggests, I think you're pulling my leg.

      Hey, I down with it.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    10. Re:Wow! by SeattleLawGuy · · Score: 1

      Funny thing was, that dam was owned by Seattle City Light! They weren't sending that electricity over 300 miles of dedicated line over to Seattle, though - they were selling it to local utilities, and through a game of economic musical chairs were in turn eventually getting an equivalent amount of electricity from sources much nearer to Seattle.

      Ownership of infrastructure is often set up the way it is for odd economics reasons. For example, IIRC historically a lot of companies that had nothing to do with whatever they owned would buy infrastructure, airplanes, and certain other major capital investments because the IRS let them deduct significantly greater amount for depreciation than the actual economic depreciation, and they could be re-sold after complete tax depreciation and start the process again. In effect it was a massive government subsidy to owners.

      --
      Real lawyers write in C++
  12. PSE is awesomely reliable... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With PSE, I've only had one outage in ten years and four months that lasted longer than my ~5 minutes of UPS backup lasted. They are a great company, but too many people here in the Seattle area want them to be less reliable and to increase our costs even more by being "green."

    The really strange thing is that so many people in PSE's territory are anti-hydro power. I think it is clean, but several of my friends had a party last summer to celebrate five PSE hydro damns being shutdown.

    1. Re: PSE is awesomely reliable... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hydro power is destroying the Earth. It is good to see Microsoft take a stand against it.

    2. Re:PSE is awesomely reliable... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same here. In fifteen years we've only had two long outages, but PSE is just a shit company since they use hydro-power. That destroys the planet. People are dying because of it. I'm so impressed by Oregon and CA that are destroying hydro-power as fast as they can. That helps the people. Helps the people.

    3. Re: PSE is awesomely reliable... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. We need to reduce instead of destroying the planet with that hydro garbage.

  13. Microsoft continues to get power from same place by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Microsoft changes who they pay for electricity, but continues to use the same infrastructure and power, somehow being "greener" and more "environmentally conscious" in the process.

    Gotta love these new green scams.

  14. PR stunt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As if Microsoft really gives a shit. It's all about ad copy and preception.

  15. So, look ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    ... the path to grokking this is to chase the money.

    Obviously, this is a business move for Microsoft.

    "Millions of dollars," is a negligible amount, compared to the order of magnitude of Microsoft's disposable income, which is in the billions.

    So, what I'm getting from this is that Microsoft does not want the source of PSE power, but it does want to use PSE's transmission lines .

    That's what Microsoft is paying for: the use of infrastructure to deliver alternative sources of power.

    There's probably something I'm missing because Microsoft makes moves that benefit their bottom line.

    There is no way in fucking hell that Microsoft is doing anything for the betterment of any entity other than itself.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  16. Customers not Responsible for Seller's Costs by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    PSE is going to be stuck with the clean-up costs of the sites containing the coal-fired energy generation plants.

    Since they presumably own those plants what is the problem? If a customer decides to stop doing business with a company they are not responsible for the associated costs because of the loss of business. Frankly, I don't understand why MS even has to pay $23.6M just to not use PSE's power anymore. It would be completely unacceptable for a customer who switched from Windows to Linux to have to pay Microsoft a fee to cover the increase in costs to Microsoft due to the switch.

  17. DC != AC by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    The electrons never reach anyone, regardless of whether it's AC or DC.

    That's true for AC but not true for DC although the drift velocity is usually in milli- or micro- metres per second so it will take a while for the electrons to get very far. Even with AC there will be some diffusion of electrons as the current flows since when the current reverses it's not guaranteed that exactly the same electrons will flow back, just the same number. However, this process should be even slower than DC.

    In the end, though it's a pointless exercise since there is no such thing as a "green" electron. However, if you look inside the nucleus you will find that all the protons and neutrons each contain a green quark.

    1. Re:DC != AC by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      OK, I guess.

      This is in my wheelhouse.

      For all of the above, current "flow" is a convenient description, but is inaccurate.

      From one point to another, electrons push on each other down a conductor and the ripple effect cause force transmission.

      A physical electron does not travel. It simply moves out and back.

      The electron is on the valence, or outer band of an atom.

      For DC, the ripple effect is circular where energy (not an electron) travels in one direction from the source, through resistance and back to the source.

      For AC, the energy activity can best be described as "scintillation," where valence electrons vibrate (in close proximity to their own nuclei, as in DC) back and forth, causing energy to alternate in direction.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  18. Doubleplusgoodnewspeak by dbIII · · Score: 1

    "cutting the cord" != having your provider setup new gateways

    You'd think so but a "creative" decided that there would be "better optics" if they used the phrase as a deliberate move to mislead.

    1. Re:Doubleplusgoodnewspeak by ls671 · · Score: 1

      exactly!

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
  19. Clickbait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They're not cutting any cord. They're simply purchasing power from a different wholesale supplier. The electrons still come from whatever the local utility is being fed from; the power "source" is primarily bookkeeping. Electrons on the wire don't have tags saying where they're from; it's more like water: an amount is poured into the system; an equivalent amount is taken out.

  20. Electrons do move by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    A physical electron does not travel. It simply moves out and back.

    Not in a DC circuit. With a DC circuit, the electrons do have a net movement - they may more back and forth but they move forth more than they move back. If they did not move there would be no constant magnetic field. The electrons do move a lot slower than the electric field but they do move and you can measure their speed.

    Scintillation is a completely different phenomenon to do with emission of light. In AC circuits the electrons still have a net movement but it reverses with the current so that over time it averages to zero. If there were no movement of charge there would be no magnetic field. Yes, there is a flow of energy but there is also a physical movement of electrons too.