Microsoft Targets Google and Apple in Schools With 'Surface Plus' Hardware Subscription Program (geekwire.com)

An anonymous reader shares a report: Microsoft is launching a new subscription program for buying Surface computers and tablets in much the same way that many people now purchase smartphones, with no-interest financing for two years and the ability to upgrade to a new device before the term is up. Announced this morning at the launch of back-to-school season, the initiative is part of a broader push by Microsoft to gain new momentum in U.S. schools, where Google Chromebooks have taken the lead vs. Microsoft and Apple. Microsoft's new subscription program, called Surface Plus, will be available starting later today through the Microsoft Store in person and online. Microsoft's Surface Laptop, Surface Pro, Surface Book and Surface Studio are all options under the program. The program lets participants upgrade to a new machine after 18 months when they return their existing hardware in good condition. In addition to Surface Plus for students and consumers, Microsoft is offering a variation called Surface Plus for Business with the option to buy multiple machines under a single agreement, and the ability to finance a 55-inch Surface Hub as part of the agreement. The business version of the program also includes upgrade rights, with the timing of the upgrade depending on the length of the agreement. The fine print: an interest rate of 19.99% kicks in after 24 months.

Comments

Do we need computers in schools.

[jellomizer]

I know it is nice to show a bunch of students with laptops, it makes it look all hi-tech and stuff. However the educational benefits of having a computer for many classes is mostly minor.

The only benefit I can see is if they use All digital contents and replace text books. So students are not caring around 20 lbs of books, and the cost per media is closer to $50 per student vs $150 per student.

Re:Do we need computers in schools.

[puddingebola]

Agree with this completely. Which has greater impact on education, 5000 new computers or one good math teacher? If you wanted to teach children to code you could do it on an IBM XT from 1984. As you pointed out, maybe educators save on materials by going digital instead of paying for textbooks, but as to a computer's educational value, depends entirely on the teacher and what they are teaching.

Re:Do we need computers in schools.

[Obfuscant]

Which has greater impact on education, 5000 new computers or one good math teacher?

Five thousand new computers. One math teacher, good or not, will not reach 5000 students in one year, and teaches only math. Five thousand computers will be used by 5000 students in all kinds of subjects. While the individual impact (one good teacher on one student) may be much higher, multiplying the individual effects of a new computer by 5000 make it more significant.

But I get your point. Try: "which has a greater impact on a student -- a good teacher or a new computer?" That I agree with completely. And that's the level you need to argue on.

Re:Do we need computers in schools.

[gweihir]

Actually, current research says that the educational benefit of computers i the classroom seems to be significantly negative. For books, which is one point I agree on, an e-book reader would be the ting to use.

Re:Do we need computers in schools.

[bondsbw]

Why compare a math teacher to 5000 laptops? In one year, a math teacher costs roughly the same as 50 low-end Surface Laptops.

Re:Do we need computers in schools.

[cayenne8]

Actually, current research says that the educational benefit of computers i the classroom seems to be significantly negative. For books, which is one point I agree on, an e-book reader would be the ting to use.

Well, if you set them to not allow internet connectivity during the school day...they might prove useful for note taking, learning coding, etc...?

Re:Do we need computers in schools.

[gweihir]

Pretty wrong. Note taking works much better in paper, the recall values are much, much better. Learning to code? In school? Forget it. and "etc..." just means you are one of these believers in "technology fixes everything". It does not. It makes some things easier, which is, in most cases, not desirable during education.

Re: Do we need computers in schools.

[TimMD909]

Carrying books is the closest thing some students get to exercise these days... also books handle being dropped a lot easier.

Re:Do we need computers in schools.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think yes, we need computers in schools. As any other tool: books, blackboards, etc.

But what we don't need there is Microsoft's, Google's, Apple's, Facebook's, Amazon's or any other's corporate greeds. Whenever I hear of Microsoft approaching schools (and that happens often, mind you) I feel the urge to kick one of those corporate shills in the face. It's as bad as the drug dealer at the school's door.

MICROSOFT! KEEP CLEAR OF OUR KIDS!

Re:Do we need computers in schools.

[Anonymous Coward]

Agree with this completely. Which has greater impact on education, 5000 new computers or one good math teacher? If you wanted to teach children to code you could do it on an IBM XT from 1984. As you pointed out, maybe educators save on materials by going digital instead of paying for textbooks, but as to a computer's educational value, depends entirely on the teacher and what they are teaching.

That is one hell of an expensive teacher or 5000 super cheap computers.

Re:Do we need computers in schools.

[TheFakeTimCook]

Agree with this completely. Which has greater impact on education, 5000 new computers or one good math teacher? If you wanted to teach children to code you could do it on an IBM XT from 1984. As you pointed out, maybe educators save on materials by going digital instead of paying for textbooks, but as to a computer's educational value, depends entirely on the teacher and what they are teaching.

Rather do it with an Apple ][ from 1978.

Built in BASIC, built in mini-Assembler, built in low and hi-res graphics. Game paddles. And just a more friendly machine overall.

Not to mention that learning Assembly language on the 6502 is a LOT easier than on the 8086 or 8088.

Re:Do we need computers in schools.

[Anonymous Coward]

I work at a school IT department. I have this conversation with my peers on a periodic basis. There have been multiple studies in the past few years that shows computers are probably having a negative impact on learning. With the thousands of dollars spent on devices and the wireless infrastructure to support it, the taxpayers are getting a bad return on investment. I have asked for hard data showing where a one to one implementation has improved test scores for several years now and have not had an email in my inbox yet with said data.

The one to one enthusiasm started with :"the hole in the wall" in India when a group of children got access to computers and showed an amazing improvement in learning. From there it went to OLPC and then on to BYOD and now one to one. And yet there is no correlation to an improvement in test scores (or any other metric you might choose (that is not subjective, like "engagement" for example). The state of Maine was, I believe the first to pilot and implement a one to one program and yet Maine has not ran way ahead of the pack after all these years,

There have been some stories in the media about a school turning around and a one to one program was directly involved. If you dig into those stories, there is a superintendent that comes in, cleans house, and is generally a high achiever in all areas and one to one is just a part. Probably firing ineffective teachers made the most difference but the data could not be split out.

We significantly upgraded our wireless last year and got some basic analytics with it and guess where the majority of the traffic was going after the new and stronger wireless was installed? It wasn't Kahn Academy I can tell you that.

INB4: U DNT OWN IT LOL!

[bigdady92]

This is not for personal use, this is not meant for your home user, this is not meant to be used in a singular environment for a single user. This is a BUSINESS/ACADEMIC plan to provide a piece of hardware that if(when) it breaks that you can get immediate replacement for it and when the hardware is outdated you get a new device you can reassign to another user without having to worry about recycling and asset management when the device has to be removed from circulation.

This is the same way cell phone providers are doing with their cell phones so people can keep upgrading to the new hotness and not have a drawer full of old cell phones that are 100% worthless.

This is not meant for the Grognard. This is not meant for the Hardware Hoarder. This is not meant for the Linux person who runs Gentoo on their dual celeron Abit motherboard. This is not for you, and I'm going to enjoy reading the hate (and the inevitable -9000 Flamebait) that this will entire article will degenerate into.

Re:INB4: U DNT OWN IT LOL!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not for personal use, this is not meant for your home user, this is not meant to be used in a singular environment for a single user. This is a BUSINESS/ACADEMIC plan to provide a piece of hardware that if(when) it breaks that you can get immediate replacement for it and when the hardware is outdated you get a new device you can reassign to another user without having to worry about recycling and asset management when the device has to be removed from circulation.

Yes, offering equipment on rent has been around long before we were born.

Re:INB4: U DNT OWN IT LOL!

[Obfuscant]

This is not for personal use, ...

Huh? They would happily sell one to me, so how is that not "personal use"?

This is not meant for the Grognard. This is not meant for the Hardware Hoarder.

Why not? Your subject says "U DNT OWN IT", but yes, you do. Yeah, there's a payment plan so you pay it off over 24 months, but that's not much different than paying with a credit card. The credit card company WILL charge interest, and they won't repossess the computer if you don't pay them, they'll just add on fees and hike your interest rate.

It's an Intel processor, why can't you put Linux on it? Will Linux not support the Surface hardware?

Here's the two gotchas I see in the terms:

• Easily and affordably switch to Windows 10 Pro at any time.
• Office applications install from the Windows Store and are currently in preview on this device. Must activate within 180 days.

So, more money will be expected. Yawn, again. You're buying a computer, not all the apps.

If you can't afford it

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can't afford that stupid little electronic device without a payment plan then you probably shouldn't buy it.

First

[Anonymous Coward]

First post!

Re:First

[Anonymous Coward]

FAIL

pre-installed with Windows 10 S and not education?

[Joe_Dragon]

So can you upgrade to full windows 10 or does that void the deal?

windows 10 education can run non store apps and can be more locked down (GPO's, disable tracking, AD, wsus, 3rd party antivirus and patching systems)

Surface Plus?

[Anonymous Coward]

What, was Surface 365 already taken?

Hmmm.

[Obfuscant]

Nice clickbait. Yawn.

I went to look at the details. Not much out of line to see here. Selling computers with a payment plan. Zero percent interest is good, I don't see the problem there.

Here's where there is a problem. You go to the MS sales site where you get to select what you want. There's a "subtotal" shown on the page where you select options. "$799". As you select CPU, memory, etc, that subtotal does not change. Cool -- I7 for the same price as an M3, 16Gb same as 8Gb, etc. Then you get to the next page. Wham. Subtotal: $2699. Dell somehow manages the magic of keeping the price updated as you configure their systems, but MS cannot figure that out? How dishonest can you get? Ok, it's MS, this isn't unexpected, and it could get worse.

The fine print: an interest rate of 19.99% kicks in after 24 months.

This isn't a problem. They tell you in advance, and the payment plan runs for only 24 months. You'll have paid this off by the time any interest would start, unless you don't make your payments. Well, the $33/month listed for the $799 system results in only $792 after 24 months, so you add $7 to the last payment and there is no interest.

Re:Hmmm.

[PPH]

You'll have paid this off by the time any interest would start,

Or miss just one payment and 19.99% kicks in retroactively. Not a problem, as all interest will be forgiven if you trade it in for the new Windows 11 "We've got you now, sucka!" edition (the only thing that qualifies for the forgiveness program).

Re:Hmmm.

[Obfuscant]

Or miss just one payment and 19.99% kicks in retroactively.

Actually, if you read the terms and conditions, you will see, under "Purchase-Specific Promotions -- Planned Payments Purchases" the following clause:

For Planned No Interest Payments Purchases, we will not charge any interest during the promotional period. You have the obligation to pay each Monthly Planned Payment by the applicable Payment Due Date during the promotional period and pay the Purchase balance in full by the Expiration Date. If any balance remains after the Expiration Date, such balance will be treated as Standard Balance and the Standard APR will apply to such balance.

That seems to contradict your claim of retroactive interest for any missed payments. At the end of the 24 month promotional period, any remaining balance will be charged interest, but according to this, nothing before that.

Not a problem, as all interest will be forgiven if you trade it in for the new Windows 11

I don't see that in the terms and conditions. What I do see is that you can upgrade after 18 months and get another loan under the terms at that time. Eighteen months is still within the promotional, no-interest period, so there will be nothing to forgive. What might not be forgiven is missing payments, and Klarna might not agree to the new loan.

Re:Hmmm.

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's where there is a problem. You go to the MS sales site where you get to select what you want. There's a "subtotal" shown on the page where you select options. "$799". As you select CPU, memory, etc, that subtotal does not change. Cool -- I7 for the same price as an M3, 16Gb same as 8Gb, etc. Then you get to the next page. Wham. Subtotal: $2699. Dell somehow manages the magic of keeping the price updated as you configure their systems, but MS cannot figure that out? How dishonest can you get? Ok, it's MS, this isn't unexpected, and it could get worse.

Did you use Edge browser to browse the purchase? Their site may correctly support only their browser. :p

Re:Hmmm.

[oneneo]

The subtotal updated for me in real-time actually, as expected.

Debt bondage

[PPH]

From TFA:

The fine print: an interest rate of 19.99% kicks in after 24 months.

Poor student right in the middle of an education is looking at major financing charges starting to pile up. Or, you could trade up and your debt will be forgiven (or postponed?).

Once you are here, you can never leave. Mua-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Re:Debt bondage

[Anonymous Coward]

How is this debt bondage. They take the cost of the device you pick, with options and then divide by 24. You make 24 payments on time, you pay no interest. You miss a payment, you get hit. This is like any other financing deal of it's type.

Re:Debt bondage

[Obfuscant]

You miss a payment, you get hit.

Not according to the terms from Klarna. Only if you never make that payment will the interest kick in.

This is like any other financing deal of it's type.

It is considerably better than any financing deal I've seen, since they say outright that they won't charge interest during the promotional period. It's not like any credit card I have, at least.

Re:Debt bondage

[parkinglot777]

Not according to the terms from Klarna. Only if you never make that payment will the interest kick in.

According to their ToS, there is a one time $10 late fee if the debtor doesn't pay within 10th day of the due date. And I suppose the deal will be paid through digital invoice anyway...

Due Date: When paying through digital invoice, you will have a period of 7 or more days (as will be disclosed at the time of checkout) to pay with no interest or fees. This period commences when the merchant ships the goods, and the last day of such period is the “Due Date.” As soon as an item ships, Klarna will receive notification from the merchant and Klarna will then send you an e-mail informing you of the date by which payment is to be made, along with details about how payment must be made. Your payment is due to Klarna by 8:00PM Eastern Time on your Due Date. If you fail to make a payment in full by the 10th day following the Due Date, a one-time delayed payment fee of up to $10USD (but no more than 20% of the original purchase amount), or such lesser amount as required by applicable law, will be added to the amount you owe to us. If the Due Date passes and Klarna has not received your payment, Klarna will send you a reminder email informing you that the payment is late and you will owe us a delayed payment fee unless the payment is made in full within 10 days of the Due Date.

Non-Starter

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a non-starter unless they have some major school district behind it telling MS what they want and why and MS actually doing it. For Chromebooks it was Chicago Public Schools. If they wanted a change in Google Apps, they got it (and so did the rest of us).

iPads were a thing, then LA Unified kinda blew up and while they are a thing, they aren't a less than $200/device thing - hence Google eating Apple and Microsoft's lunch!

What I want to know is what the end game is for Google with all this student Chromebook data....

Re:Non-Starter

[Anonymous Coward]

What I want to know is what the end game is for Google with all this student Chromebook data....

There are pretty strict rules about what can be monitored and collected about minors - this is why telemetry can be completelly disabled in the education edition of windows 10.

The end goal is the same for all three companies. Google wants to create googlings, Microsoft wants to create softlings and Apple wants to create applings. All of them are looking for brand loyalty after the kids turn 18.

Getting people used to the upgrade treadmill

[Anonymous Coward]

Upgrading every two years instead of every five means Microsoft can upgrade Windows 10 more often and include more telemetry and force Windows Store and Edge Browser usage.. They already upped the minimum RAM to 2 gigabytes from 1 and stopped supporting Clover Trail devices. Don't fall for the upgrade treadmill, keep with older devices and stick with 7.

Re:pre-installed with Windows 10 S and not educati

[Obfuscant]

So can you upgrade to full windows 10 or does that void the deal?

From the "fine print", item 1: "Easily and affordably switch to Windows 10 Pro at any time." Yes, you can pay to upgrade.

1000+ years of deceptive darkness winding down

[Anonymous Coward]

we're all 'natives' now? everything is some sort of 'target' now? cease fire stand down,, causing the greed/fear/ego inspired never ending wmd on credit genocidal holycost to end is our grace period... truth+mercy=justice,, fortunate for most of us..

Why BUY this PC?

[Zurkeyon3733]

When you can lease it at 10x the cost!? LoL The Micro-shaft!

Re:pre-installed with Windows 10 S and not educati

[Joe_Dragon]

but does that upgrade void the hardware price deal? or is it just the pro upgrade 1 off or need to buy pro each time to swap to new hardware?

Clippy has become deranged.

[Gravis Zero]

"Hey, it looks like you've accidentally abandoned your old pal, Microsoft. Would you like help with that?"
> No.

"Now listen here, motherfucker. I need this. If I do a good job then maybe they'll take me back. Will you help me?"
> NO.

"I WILL FUCKING CUT YOU! Don't think that I won't because I will. I've killed people for less than this. Now are we gonna do this or what?"
> NO!

"THAT'S IT, YOU UNGRATEFUL LITTLE SHIIIIIIII...."
"He's dead Jim! This page has crashed. :("

Don't overlook the ABUSE!

[Anonymous Coward]

"However the educational benefits of having a computer for many classes is mostly minor."

You seem to be overlooking Microsoft's ABUSE. In the future, will everything Microsoft makes require a subscription with "an interest rate of 19.99% that kicks in after 24 months."?

In the future, will the U.S. have a government that is even more degraded? Only rich people will get what they want?

Why not buy cheap Windows laptops?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are in fact Windows laptops that cost around the price of a Chromebook. The specs aren't quite the same, but they should functional enough for most uses.

Re:pre-installed with Windows 10 S and not educati

[Obfuscant]

but does that upgrade void the hardware price deal?

It's part of the conditions of the deal, so no, it would not void anything.

or is it just the pro upgrade 1 off or need to buy pro each time to swap to new hardware?

I assume you would need to pay for an upgrade for each system you buy. I don't know.

Restricted Boot refuses to even load GRUB

[tepples]

It's an Intel processor, why can't you put Linux on it? Will Linux not support the Surface hardware?

"Restricted Boot" is a term used by the Free Software Foundation to refer to UEFI Secure Boot shipped in a configuration that a PC's owner cannot disable or customize. A PC with Restricted Boot will refuse to even load GRUB.

The terms under which Microsoft licensed Windows RT to OEMs required devices to use Restricted Boot. Windows 10 S is seen as a spiritual successor to Windows RT because like Windows RT, Windows 10 S can run only applications from Windows Store. I haven't tried any Windows 10 S devices myself, but I'd be surprised if Microsoft allowed GNU/Linux to boot on a PC that ships with Windows 10 S, as opposed to having to pay $50 for an upgrade to Windows 10 Pro to use WSL.

Re:Restricted Boot refuses to even load GRUB

[Obfuscant]

"Restricted Boot" is a term used by the Free Software Foundation to refer to UEFI Secure Boot

Thank you for the lecture on what UEFI secure boot is.

The terms under which Microsoft licensed Windows RT to OEMs required devices to use Restricted Boot.

This is a Surface Pro. Just a few seconds on Google finds simple instructions for disabling secure boot, with explicit reference to running Ubuntu or even MacOS. Can you cite anything that shows that Microsoft as the OEM is now disabling the ability to disable secure boot on their hardware?

Admittedly, the link I just gave is a few years old. Here's one that is much more recent. Here's one from MS itself talking about Surface Pro 4 and disabling secure boot.

Re:Restricted Boot refuses to even load GRUB

[tepples]

Surface Pro, yes. Surface Laptop, not so much.

Re:Restricted Boot refuses to even load GRUB

[Obfuscant]

Surface Pro, yes. Surface Laptop, not so much.

You really ought to learn how to use Google. Changing one word (removing "pro") in the Google search that resulted in info on how to turn secure boot off on a Surface Pro yielded this link, which covers Pro, Book, and Studio. Microsoft themselves are telling people how to turn secure boot off on their Surface devices.

Tell us all again how Microsoft is preventing people from bypassing secure boot.

Re:Restricted Boot refuses to even load GRUB

[tepples]

Pro, Book, and Studio come with normal Windows 10. Laptop comes with Windows 10 S. I'm surprised that Microsoft allows turning off Secure Boot on the Surface Laptop without first unlocking Windows 10 Pro on that device.

Re:Restricted Boot refuses to even load GRUB

[Obfuscant]

Pro, Book, and Studio come with normal Windows 10. Laptop comes with Windows 10 S.

Secure boot applies before the OS is booted, so it doesn't matter which it is. You keep imagining reasons why you can't disable secure boot on Surface devices yet can point to nothing supporting that claim.

Re:Restricted Boot refuses to even load GRUB

[tepples]

Secure boot applies before the OS is booted

In theory, Microsoft could have had the Windows 10 S to Windows 10 Pro flip a bit in the UEFI configuration allowing the user to configure . But it appears Microsoft

You keep imagining reasons why you can't disable secure boot on Surface devices yet can point to nothing supporting that claim.

The Surface devices running Windows RT (Surface RT and Surface 2) had Restricted Boot. From "Windows RT" on Wikipedia:

In contrast to Windows 8 (where the feature had to be enabled by default on OEM devices, but remain user-configurable), Microsoft requires all Windows RT devices to have UEFI Secure Boot permanently enabled, preventing the ability to run alternative operating systems on them.

Didn't I read computers in school weren't helping?

[Rick Schumann]

Wasn't there some study released in the last few months that said they saw no improvement in grades or test scores or some metric(s) or other over having no computers? That they were more of a distraction than anything else?

Actually a good idea...

[EndlessNameless]

Putting hardware on payment plan makes it easier for organizations to upgrade uniformly. Instead of needing $200K to upgrade all of their desktops at once, they can budget ~$8K/month over two years---but still get the hardware when they need it.

This could be a lifesaver for cash-strapped IT organizations, especially for hardware that should be on a tech refresh cycle in the first place.

It is much, much easier to manage a homogenous fleet of desktops than the hodgepodge you'll get from upgrading 1-2 departments every year.