Tesla Seeks $1.5 Billion Junk Bonds Issue To Fund Model 3 Production (reuters.com)

As Tesla seeks fresh sources of cash to increase production of its new Model 3 sedan, the company announced on Monday that it would raise about $1.5 billion through its first-ever high-yield junk bond offering. "The debt offering marks Tesla's debut in the junk-bond market and the company will start road-shows on Monday, IFR reported, citing lead bankers on the deal," reports Reuters. From the report: Tesla has been riding high on investor expectations that its Model 3 will be a mass-market hit, with shareholders pushing its market value above that of General Motors Co and Ford Motor Co, the top two U.S. automakers that produce millions of cars each annually. But Tesla has yet to make an annual profit and its stock is a favorite among short-sellers, who continue to bet Tesla will fall short of its shareholders' high hopes. So far, Tesla has been raising money to pay its bills with a combination of equity offerings and convertible bonds, which eventually convert into shares. In March, the company raised $1.4 billion through a convertible debt offering. Following the announcement, Standard & Poor's assigned a "B-1" rating for the bond issue -- deep into junk credit territory. S&P also maintained its "B-" long-term corporate credit rating on Tesla. "We could lower our ratings on Tesla is execution issues related to the Model 3 launch later this year or the ongoing expansion of its Models S and X production lead to significant cost overruns," S&P said in a statement on the bonds. Meanwhile, Moody's assigned a junk "B3" rating to the bond issue and said the company's rating outlook was stable.

Comments

Gov handouts not enough?

[Anonymous Coward]

So the gazillions of dollars in government handouts isn't enough to make this business model work? Seems legit.

Re:Gov handouts not enough?

[Smallpond]

https://www.tesla.com/blog/tes...

Re: Gov handouts not enough?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-11/its-confirmed-without-government-subsidies-tesla-sales-implode

Re: Gov handouts not enough?

[Rei]

1. Source: "Zero Hedge is an English-language financial blog that aggregates news and presents editorial opinions from original and outside sources. The news portion of the site is written by a group of editors who collectively write under the pseudonym "Tyler Durden" (a character from the novel and film Fight Club). Zero Hedge's content has been classified as anti-establishment, and economically pessimistic,[3] and has been criticized for presenting extreme and sometimes pro-Russian views.[1][4]"

2. This sort of idiocy comes up once every few months. Put yourself in a potential buyer's shoes. You're thinking about possibly getting a Tesla, but haven't made the decision yet. Your tax credit is about to expire. Do A) keep dallying, or B) rush to make your decision, and order before it expires?

Of course the closer you get to expiration the more people buy, and then as soon as it expires the orders plunge off a cliff. Because those sales are already baked into the numbers. What sort of moron buys three days after a tax credit expires? Whenever you have an announced, predictable price spike on any product, this will happen. And it takes months before sales restore.

Elon Musk is rich

[BitcoinVagrant]

But I am not! Please donate BTC today! 18awryFxpSG2C1PRHWCteoak94HfdFbnfD

John DeLorean

[CrAlt]

To bad DeLorean isn't still alive. He could have helped Tesla with some creative funding ideas...

Re:John DeLorean

[rmdingler]

Clever.

Delorean was a rookie at the fundraising game, though, which is why he turned to an illegal income stream.

Elon's getting free press, government contracts, and all the lined-up, round the block, VC capitol he wants.

Edison didn't win the electricity game by producing a better product... he simply understood the way things worked better than Tesla.

Re:John DeLorean

[Anonymous Coward]

too

Re:John DeLorean

[Gravis Zero]

Edison didn't win the electricity game by producing a better product... he simply understood the way things worked better than Tesla.

No, Edison was an asshole who literally electrocuted neighborhood dogs and sued his competition of rudimentary patents because the only thing he cared about was money. Telsa cared about science and the advancement of society rather than profit and allowed companies infringing on his patents to continue, despite holding arguably the most valuable patents in history.

Telsa wasn't perfect but Edison was a total asshole.

Re:John DeLorean

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with everything you said. And that is why Edison is considered a god of "American Innovation" along with the asshole Henry Ford who completely screwed over American industry to pinch a few pennies. Most Americans still don't know how horrible a philips head screw is and that they have Ford to thank for that. And this whole concept of make cheap crap cheaper and more disposable so you can sell it again next year which is drowning America came from him.

Re: John DeLorean

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice try but I think all the Showmanship that test that involved in with his own way of being greedy.

Franklin wanted the money, Tesla wanted the fame. Both werr geniuses deserving of it in my opinion.

Re:John DeLorean

[Anonymous Coward]

If only there were some way we could go back to the time that he was alive, and solicit his sage advice.

Re:John DeLorean

[CrAlt]

Edison did nothing wrong.

Re:John DeLorean

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, just like Hitler and Homura.

Re:John DeLorean

[Anonymous Coward]

The Edison vs. Tesla debate is bunk. Tesla ended up as a weird old quack who promised death rays and wireless energy transmission through vibrations of the Earth. By the end of his career he was purely a showman and not an inventor.

Edison may have had showman tendencies, but he delivered a huge amount of practical, useful inventions, and even more important was his organization of Menlo Park.

Re: John DeLorean

[Anonymous Coward]

very little of the blame for the spread of the inferior Philips drive belongs to Ford. By far the blame is on the corrupt legal system in England for burning entrepeneurs with better drives and leading to an unwillingness to scale manufacture of these fasteners to levels necessary for Ford. Clearly Robertson refused to license the design of his drive, it was not that Ford was unwilling to pay, because serious offers were made.

Re:John DeLorean

[rmdingler]

Edison didn't win the electricity game by producing a better product... he simply understood the way things worked better than Tesla.

No, Edison was an asshole who literally electrocuted neighborhood dogs and sued his competition of rudimentary patents because the only thing he cared about was money. Telsa cared about science and the advancement of society rather than profit and allowed companies infringing on his patents to continue, despite holding arguably the most valuable patents in history.

Telsa wasn't perfect but Edison was a total asshole.

This probably goes a long way towards explaining why Musk's new automotive release isn't the Edison Model S.

Re:John DeLorean

[Anonymous Coward]

but he delivered a huge amount of practical, useful inventions,

Stolen from Tesla.

Re:John DeLorean

[sl3xd]

Most Americans still don't know how horrible a Philips head screw is

Every American has had a few choice words with stripping and jumping Phillips screws. Everybody hates them -- just not enough to bother replacing it.

and that they have Ford to thank for that

No. There was a better screw of the day - the Robertson, but he wasn't willing to license his patent to the auto industry.

The Phillips Screw Company was an "IP" company that licensed their patent. The Phillips head was first tested in production on the 1936 Cadillac, and spread like wildfire across the American automotive industry, and from there, into everything else.

Re:John DeLorean

[haruchai]

Tesla was always somewhat eccentric & became increasingly so in old age.
But thanks to George Westinghouse, Tesla's ideas & inventions became the foundation for the electrical grid.
Westinghouse doesn't get enough credit & recognition for his work & achievements.
His 1st invention, at age 22, of failsafe simultaneousa air brakes for railway cars is worthy of a medal & has probably saved many thousands of lives.
Prior to that, brakemen had to run from car to car, applying brakes manually on each car!!

Re:John DeLorean

[painandgreed]

Every American has had a few choice words with stripping and jumping Phillips screws. Everybody hates them -- just not enough to bother replacing it.

Except that camming out is a feature if putting something together as if you overdrive, it won't break the bit or damage the thing being screwed together. Robinson doesn't strip as easy but it also doesn't cam out and thus, you eventually end up with a lot of broken robinson bits or split boards. While I hear the Robinson wouldn't sell bit with Ford a lot, I've also heard that he chose the Phillips head because it would cam out without damaging the product which is better for manufacturing (and a stripped Phillips head would be a customer issue).

Re:John DeLorean

[sl3xd]

Yeah. "Customer issue"

Granted, it really was useful for the power drivers used in factories back in the day. We have torque limiters on the cheapest electric drivers these days.

Stripped screws are still a great way to tamper-proof while looking shoddy at the same time.

Re:John DeLorean

[painandgreed]

Ya, I know lost of people who swear by Robinson head that I won't argue with, but they're also all mechanical fabricators with good tools who are going to be the ones to have to take apart what they put together.

Maybe the Fed will buy it

[Spy Handler]

Tesla's gotta be better than mortgage-backed securities, right? And Bernanke/Yellen bought plenty of those.

Re: Maybe the Fed will buy it

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you think that?

Re:Maybe the Fed will buy it

[Anonymous Coward]

considering he is basically in a bet the company position on the model 3 I would say a big fat no to that. think they would have to rate as relatively high risk hence why they got such a poor rating. basically if the model 3 fails the bonds will become worthless.

Re:Maybe the Fed will buy it

[ShanghaiBill]

Tesla's gotta be better than mortgage-backed securities, right?

Mortgages have the real estate as collateral. FNMA securities also have an implicit taxpayer funded backstop.

Re:Maybe the Fed will buy it

[gl4ss]

from what you can analyze it really isn't.

at least mortgage backed securities are _supposed_ to be backed by mortgage.

these are.. well these are lending money to someone who should already have the money and should be able to get it somewhere else at better terms but somehow is not getting it.

Re:Maybe the Fed will buy it

[jeremyp]

No mortgage backed securities are supposed to have real estate as collateral. In the lead up to the 2008 crash, the whole market was more or less fraudulent.

So pre-orders aren't enough?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why.. why.. the pre-orders aren't enticing enough for investors? They can't even promise 6-8 weeks of delivery.

Re:So pre-orders aren't enough?

[Rei]

Selling more convertible stock means more dilution. Selling bonds means that they want to hang onto their share in the company, and feel that paying interest after the plant is online is worth the benefit of not having to dilute.

Re:So pre-orders aren't enough?

[thomst]

Rei observed:

Selling more convertible stock means more dilution. Selling bonds means that they want to hang onto their share in the company, and feel that paying interest after the plant is online is worth the benefit of not having to dilute.

Exactly so.

Junk bond status begins at BBB- rating. That doesn't mean they aren't a good investment. It merely means that they carriy greater risk than do "investment grade" bonds. What type of risk that consists of, and the degree of risk involved varies from bond issue to bond issue. Wikipedia's article on high-yield debt is fairly well-written, and it does a good job of explaining the basics. I recommend it to people who feel tempted to throw the term "junk bond" around without actually understanding what that actually means.

Elon haters are legion. Many of them are "car guys" who bet their reputations - and in some cases their shirts - that Tesla would fail before it ever sold a car. They resent Musk because he proved them wrong. Others are Washington beltway bandits who fear the disruptive effects of SpaceX's success on the defense industry gravy train, because it's their oxen that stand to be gored by it ...

Re:So pre-orders aren't enough?

[bluefoxlucid]

Nobody seems to notice this is a pay-day loan. Tesla is going to lose their shirt in interest if they can't pay it back PDQ.

Tesla is confident they can scale up and pay this off. The company's established; it has a strong mission; they believe in themselves, and this is demonstrative of that belief. Now they just have to avoid losing customers by taking the next 8 years to get those millions of Model 3 pre-orders out the door, so they better get their hands on some cash quick.

Re:So pre-orders aren't enough?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget the Russian fake-news bots that dislike him because he reduces the reliance on Russian rockets!

Why not just build some cars, sell them, then repe

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, its because the sales of the 3 can't live up to the hype and they want to cash in now. I love you Tesla, but smart investors would touch this with a 10 foot pole.

Now watch as risk unaware public gobbles these up. The next crash can't come soon enough.

The shorts are loose

[hord]

This is after another press release a few days ago where they stated that Tesla lost 60k pre-orders. That stock could be a hyperloop if manufacturing slips at all.

Re:The shorts are loose

[Rei]

*sigh*.

60k cancellations over the course of a year. Meanwhile they've grown to nearly half a million active preorders. And since the launch event they've been netting (new orders minus lost orders) 1800 per day since the launch event. All this with Tesla attempting to anti-sell the Model 3 to preferentially push sales of S and X, since that means short-term cash that can be used to help fund their scaleup.

Re:The shorts are loose

[gl4ss]

anti sell? that's a new.

so tell me again why did they repay their another loan in record time and then pursue this presumably more expensive loan?

anyways, it doesn't really matter until they start talking about actual sales... and production.. ..but the one thing that should matter would be just to try to guess if they can make and sell them at a profit. doesn't matter if it's 101001230120 preorders if they can't meet them at profit.

the reason why this is sort of interesting is that they're seeking money this way and that is usually not a very good sign for a company like this in a situation like this. it just isn't. it's a sign that the usual lenders/investors have put on a squeeze on how much they are willing to dump money there and it is getting near to the make or break time - which has been a long time coming in case of tesla.

and now to why it is annoying.. look, if you had been touting henry ford as an industrial genius in 1930 that would have been ooookay. just fine. but if you had been touting ford as an industrial genius in 1901, then you would have had no basis for it. Musk is still in that 1900 moment when it comes to the industries he has been dumping money in - not only his own but others money as well. he has not been reaping money for anyone yet(from tesla, spacex or whatever post paypal) except from pockets of other people.

very few tesla fanbois who adore him for being a rocket-electriccar-SUPERBIZNIZMAN seem to realize that the money in fact was sourced from running a bank that is not a bank that slipped federal regulations while getting all current at that time competitors closed by the feds(for being essentially banks, without regulation).

yes, suddenly his technology and science chops seem a lot fucking less impressive when you realize that the biggest way he made money with so far was by slipping through regulation and being a fly-by-night banker. he hasn't made his wealth with electric cars or engineering stuff, but that is the public image he needed to get the money to dump into tesla, spacex and others.

Re:The shorts are loose

[Rei]

anti sell? that's a new.

Only to people who are not paying attention is that "a new".

so tell me again why did they repay their another loan in record time and then pursue this presumably more expensive loan?

For one, by repaying early they avoided letting the US government cash out on $300m worth of stock options. For two, it deprived people like you of a cudgel to say "See, they're dependent on the government". Not like it stopped you, or not like people like you ever bring that up about companies like Chrysler that never repaid part of their loans.

You know, by the way, you don't need to ask these things, you can just look them up for yourself.

the reason why this is sort of interesting is that they're seeking money this way and that is usually not a very good sign for a company like this in a situation like this.

So you think that stockholders should want to be diluted rather than pay interest, in a company undergoing a rapid expansion? Praytell why?

it just isn't. it's a sign that the usual lenders/investors have put on a squeeze on how much they are willing to dump money

Ah, yes, because you can just put $1,5 billion dollars on your credit card.

if you had been touting ford as an industrial genius in 1901,

Given that Ford Motor Company wasn't even founded until 1903, that's a stupid comparison.

In your analogy, 1901 is 2001 (Tesla was founded in 2003). Ford's prototype car Sweepstakes is AC Propulsion's tzero. The equivalent on Ford's timeline to the present is the middle of 1917. And ironically, in 1917 Ford was just starting on the River Rouge complex, the Gigafactory of its day.

And as for your long "bank" screed, I don't even know which bank you're talking about. Tesla Motors as received investments from numerous sources (including banks) over the years. Tesla's starting capital was provided by Elon Musk and Mark Tarpenning out of their personal assets (Musk's from the sale of Paypal); the Series B funding round added in Valor Equity Partners. Wait a minute, is it Paypal that you're trying to say is a "bank that is not a bank" in your screed?

Re:The shorts are loose

[Anonymous Coward]

RESERVATIONS. Not pre-orders. People paid for the opportunity to secure a place in line, not for the vehicle itself (although that money CAN be applied to the vehicle if you choose to buy one or fully refunded). It was a masterful coup by Musk, he got a $5B interest-free loan from consumers almost instantly with no penalties assuming they don't go bankrupt, which I doubt they will.

As for the "60K lost orders", a non-trivial chunk of those were people who got tired of waiting and instead ordered a S or X, you see it time and again on the forums where people said they did this. Again, sounds like a win for Musk, especially when they thought they would only get 100-250k reservations, not 500k.

Slashdot sure has become a shithole

[bareman]

Posting short-seller FUD articles. You guys are really really desperate, and pathetic.

Re:Slashdot sure has become a shithole

[Anonymous Coward]

And here you are, a member of slashdot and actively posting to its articles.

I wonder....what kind of person belongs in a shithole?

Re:Slashdot sure has become a shithole

[Rei]

We need a new round of short sellers to lose another half billion dollars betting against Tesla ;) Hey, maybe a new TTAC Tesla Deathwatch while we're at it! ;)

Re:Slashdot sure has become a shithole

[Rei]

Anyway, since Slashdot has gone hard on bear articles about Tesla, have a bull one.

Re:Slashdot sure has become a shithole

[Anonymous Coward]

Smart investors never gave their money to tesla in the first place. But you go ahead and be a dumbass and give your money to a con artist.

Tesla will be out of business in a year. Their factory workers will go on strike and that will hammer the final nail in their coffin.

Re:Slashdot sure has become a shithole

[Rei]

Smart investors never gave their money to tesla in the first place

Yeah, try googling "Tesla stock" and clicking the "5 year" button. All of those smart people who craftily avoided having their money increase 12-fold....

Tesla will be out of business in a year.

Hey, you should write for TTAC! ;)

Re:Slashdot sure has become a shithole

[Anonymous Coward]

And when the workers at the factory go on strike, Tesla will go bankrupt and dumbass morons like you will have lost everything and I'll be laughing at you.

Re:Slashdot sure has become a shithole

[WrongMonkey]

A lot of people thought their money increased 12-fold under Bernie Madoff and Charles Ponzi, too. Until you actually the sell the stock, you haven't made a dime.

Re:Slashdot sure has become a shithole

[Rei]

You know, the "Tesla is going to go bankrupt any day now" screed was tiresome back when TTAC was doing it a decade ago. Now it's just silly.

Re:Slashdot sure has become a shithole

[cheesybagel]

I wouldn't be surprised if the stock dropped in value once this bubble cools down. But I think the company will still be around in 5 years and they'll deliver more Model 3s.

o look ANOTHER attack on tesla...

[Anonymous Coward]

o look ANOTHER attack on tesla...

Re:o look ANOTHER attack on tesla...

[Anonymous Coward]

I see the wannabe-martyr narrative has flipped from "Slashdot worships Tesla!" to "Slashdot hates Tesla!"

Bad comments

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a real company with a real product with real facilities and employees and real ORDERS. If they can't raise capital on a favorable basis, who can?

Just askin'

Re:Bad comments

[LynnwoodRooster]

A company with real product, real facilities, real employees, real orders and PROFIT. Telsa has yet to turn a profit, and is about to turn the bulk of their revenue over to much lower margin product. Product that is as complex to make as their high-profit stuff, but has even lower returns. If you can't make a profit on esoteric, high-value, tax-advantaged products, what is expected when the move to more pedestrian, low value, zero-tax advantaged products?

Re:Bad comments

[Rei]

The margin on S and X is 25%. Model 3's expected margin is also around 25%.

Furthermore - and please pay attention to this part - A company undergoing an exponential scaleup is not supposed to be returning profits. They're supposed to be investing every last penny they take in in order to minimize how much additional capital they have to raise to fund the scaleup.

Re:Bad comments

[LynnwoodRooster]

Uhh, that's a 25% GROSS margin. The profit margin of TSLA is currently -12.06%. Negative. Tesla does not make a profit today, nor has it in the past.

Re:Bad comments

[Anonymous Coward]

> The profit margin of TSLA is currently -12.06%.

*cough*

> A company undergoing an exponential scaleup is not supposed to be returning profits. They're supposed to be investing every last penny they take in in order to minimize how much additional capital they have to raise to fund the scaleup.

Re:Bad comments

[LynnwoodRooster]

Get those lungs looked at! The GP claimed they were making a 25% margin on their cars, and implied it was profit (because he was countering my claim they are not profitable). Facts show otherwise. And it is admirable to invest all earnings into growth - but they have no path to profitability right now, even if the investments weren't there. Look at their financial statements, remove the factory expansion, and they still lose money.

Re:Bad comments

[geekmux]

Uhh, that's a 25% GROSS margin. The profit margin of TSLA is currently -12.06%. Negative. Tesla does not make a profit today, nor has it in the past.

Snapchat lost over $500 million in 2016, and was even arrogant enough to declare in their IPO that they haven't made a profit, and may never make a profit. Yet they're worth billions.

Your talk of "profits" and financial common sense has no place in 21st century business. Narcissism, fake news, and hype are the new currency.

Re:Bad comments

[drinkypoo]

but they have no path to profitability right now,

What do you think massive expanding production is?

Look at their financial statements, remove the factory expansion, and they still lose money.

The whole point of the factory expansion is that you have to spend money to make money. The automakers spent a lot more growing their businesses.

Re:Bad comments

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

Furthermore - and please pay attention to this part - A company undergoing an exponential scaleup is not supposed to be returning profits. They're supposed to be investing every last penny they take in in order to minimize how much additional capital they have to raise to fund the scaleup.

Correct. I'd like to point out that when Amazon started in the 1990s that Wall Street types said it would never be profitable and their business model couldn't be sustained. I'm not saying that Tesla is Amazon, but you're quite right in pointing out that the time to complain about profits is not right now.

Re:Bad comments

[elistan]

A company undergoing an exponential scaleup is not supposed to be returning profits. They're supposed to be investing every last penny they take in in order to minimize how much additional capital they have to raise to fund the scaleup.

Reminds me of Amazon's profits early on - or rather, the lack of.

Re:Bad comments

[Anonymous Coward]

"Product that is as complex to make as their high-profit stuff, but has even lower returns."
"The margin on S and X is 25%. Model 3's expected margin is also around 25%."

Fairly certain the 25% margin statement was to address the claim that Model 3 will be just as complex have a lower return. None of that is claiming that there is a profit yet, quite the opposite. There is not SUPPOSED to be profit yet. Model S and X sales were always meant to finance the road to mass production.

Re:Bad comments

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you're a short seller...

Re:Bad comments

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess this is one lost on people unfamiliar with business, but massive expansion isn't always a good idea. I'm reminded of the first company I worked for. They started off as a single shop and were hugely successful. They opened a second and it was hugely successful. They were doing fine up to about 5. Then they opened 10 more because they were doing so well. About a year later they were out of business. Massive expansion does not mean they're going to do well. In fact, trying to expand too quickly is often what kills companies.

Re:Bad comments

[Rei]

Did your company have literally two years of advanced orders lined up for products from its new shops, without any advertising and without the customers ever having had a chance to try the product out?

Re:Bad comments

[Rei]

Indeed. Anyone else remember this scene from Futurama?

Re:Bad comments

[jeremyp]

What do you think massive expanding production is?

A path to destruction without massively expanding sales to go with it.

Better title.

[Gravis Zero]

Tesla Model 3 in Full Production

I'm not sure why people are focused on stocks when there is a technology website rather than a business/trader website. I keep reading all this bad-mouthing about Elon's ventures but they have all been panning out albeit a bit delayed. I get the feeling the people writing these articles may have a vested interesting in causing a momentary dip in the stock price because they continue to be wrong time and time again.

Re:Better title.

[ShanghaiBill]

Elon's ventures ... have all been panning out albeit a bit delayed.

Money talks. That investors aren't will to accept less than B+ interest rates means a lot more than your personal opinion. If you really think this is a sure thing, then go long on these bonds and get rich. When you cash in, please come back here and post a picture of your new yacht. Good luck.

Re:Better title.

[Rei]

Meh, it's understandable - bondholders face only the risks, without the long-term benefits. Stockholders have floated Tesla's value to such highs because they're invested in the future of the company, selling millions of cars per year (M3 is being tooled for half a million on its own). Bondholders get none of that, they only get interest. So they take all of the risk with none of the reward (beyond interest). Since the risk is quite real, the interest rates have to be higher to compensate.

Meanwhile, to Tesla shareholders, selling bonds means not having to dilute. So what if they have to pay more interest? From their perspective, that interest is coming from the revenue of a completed Model 3 plant. Which means that they've succeeded growing this former-startup into a giant.

Re:Better title.

[Whibla]

I honestly do not fully understand all the Musk / Tesla hate that's been going on recently, particularly on slashdot, however...

Stockholders have floated Tesla's value to such highs because they're invested in the future of the company

If memory serves even Elon said fairly recently that he thought Tesla stock was 'overpriced'. (No, sorry I do not have any citation for that, just a vague memory - can't say it troubles me one way or the other)

Now I generally don't follow share prices but, if my memory is correct, that would explain the rumours of the recent shorts on Tesla's stock. Taking those rumours along with the fact that the share price didn't take a downward correction following Elon's announcement I guess that means there's some people that potentially stand to lose a fair amount of money, and, further, stand to not make vastly larger sums of money.

My heart bleeds for them! /s

As for these bonds, from everything I've seen over the last couple of years, I'd have no hesitation in buying them as a 'sensible' investment*.

*I am not an investment advisor. What I'd consider sensible might not be sensible for you. The value of any investment you make can go down as well as up, blah blah blah...

Re:Better title.

[Anonymous Coward]

I honestly do not fully understand all the Musk / Tesla hate that's been going on recently

I can't answer for everybody, just for myself. It's the same problem I have with Apple. It's the smug factor. I can't stand smug. Smug people piss me off, and though my higher brain says "ignore it" my primitive brain says "somebody is wrong on the internet and they must be corrected". It's totally irrational, and I know this, but I can't help myself. It's the antithesis of the musk fanboi who ignores the facts that Tesla isn't doing well financially and continues full on that Tesla is the most amazing thing (see Rei for the classical example of this). The more somebody points out how wonderful Tesla is, the more I feel the need to point out everything wrong with Tesla. Fact is Tesla has a really high recall rate and their cars objectively are mediocre, but the people who love Tesla don't care and will buy them anyway.

Tesla to them is like my dog is to me. Yeah, sometimes he pees on a wall inside, and he seems like like to poop on bushes rather than grass, and every so often he'll jump up on the bed while I'm sleeping, curl up with his butt in my face and fart, but I love him anyway. And I'm to those Tesla owners what my friends are to me pointing out how awful it is when my dog does those things. But the big difference is, when my friends point these things out, I say "yeah, I know, but I love him anyway", where the Tesla devout (again, see Rei), shout "no, there is no problem!".

Re:Better title.

[Rei]

I'm sorry that you hate me (enough to mention me by name, apparently), but facts matter to me.

Tesla's recall rate in 2016 per 1000 vehicles was 936. This places it lower than Mazda, GM, Subaru, Toyota, Nissan, Jaguar / Land Rover, Mitsubishi, Ford, Volvo, BMW, Hyundai, Honda, Chrysler, and Volkswagen (by the end of that list we're up to 1805 recalls per 1000 vehicles). Only three manufacturers had a lower recall rate than Tesla - Porsche, Mercedes, and Kia. Furthermore, Tesla was ranked the most proactive of all manufacturers, with 100% of recalls initiated by internal investigation rather than NHTSA investigation; and the top spot for recall timeliness. As for the cars being "mediocre", Tesla once again topped the Consumer Reports owner satisfaction index, with a 91% "would buy again" rating crushing the next closest competitor, Porsche at 84%.

I fully and understand your reaction. You see other people happy about a product, think that they shouldn't be, and so that makes you mad. Has it ever crossed your mind that perhaps there is a real, legitimate reason that other people are happy with the product? And have you taken the time to consider where you're getting wrong information from, such as "Tesla has a high recall rate" - when in reality the opposite is true?

Re:Better title.

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you working on your serious character flaw?

Intelligent man loses his mind

[Neuronwelder]

With the Model 3 costing just under Eighty Thousand there aren't going to be many buyers. Even regular stores and malls are closing at an alarming rate. People with money, are not going to open their wallets for it. I sincerely hopes he hangs onto his stocks instead.. Is he just getting bored??

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Gravis Zero]

With the Model 3 costing just under Eighty Thousand there aren't going to be many buyers.

First of all, you have the price all wrong because the base model is $35K. Secondly, Tesla already has more preorders to fill than they can keep up with which is why you don't see advertisements for Tesla's cars.

People with money, are not going to open their wallets for it.

That must explain why Tesla sells every single car they make. -_-

You're a dummy.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[mentil]

According to this page, a Model 3 with every option costs $59,500.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[kamapuaa]

Personally I am considering a model 3. I would get the $5K luxury package and maybe an alternate color. $41K, minus perhaps $5K in government subsidy by the time my number comes up. Then, I save $1K per year in fuel and probably some additional in maintenance...and it become a pretty average-price car. Sure if you get all the options it costs more, but that's true of all cars.

Regular stores and malls are closing because ways of competition from Amazon, not a general decline in people buying stuff.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[RhettLivingston]

Who the heck modded the parent up?

I'm pretty sure the most tricked out Model 3 offered is in the mid 50s.

And stores and malls are closing because they are being replaced by online sales and Walmart - not due to any drop in consumer spending.

Even with Walmart, I drove through for my groceries today instead of going in. Once they develop free autonomous delivery, they can move to a warehouse on less valuable land.

I hope that they all die, and we restore the land to parks. Much of it is near roads in accessible locations that are ideal for badly needed places to get outdoors.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Rei]

Hehe... um... might want to check your pricing. Model 3 starts at $35k (without credits). With a standard featureset comparable to a BMW 3-Series optioned up to $41-42k.

Of course you can option it up further. The current announced options are:

  * Premium upgrade package (misc added luxury details): +$5k
  * Metallic paint: +$1k
  * Long-range (310 instead of 220 miles range; 5,1 second instead of 5,6 second 0-60; 8yr/120k mi battery warranty instead of 8yr/100k mi): +$9k
  * 19" "turbine" wheels: +$1,5k
  * All-wheel drive: TBD (stated to be cheaper than on the Model S, where it costs $5k)
  * Performance variants (should be a 0-60 in 3-4 seconds): TBD

So, with every option available you can bring it up to maybe $55k (without credits), possibly more for fully optioned-out performance versions. But it's not even possible to bring to $80k.

"Stores and malls" are not "closing at an alarming rate". The US is in an expansion.

Giving a bond offering is hanging onto stocks. That's the whole point, to avoid dilution of stock.

It's very simple. Tesla has customers lined up for nearly two years, and that's if their scaleup goes as planned. They have business out the wazoo, if they can deliver. Which takes tons of money. There's about a dozen different ways they can get large amounts of money, but the goal is to do so in the manner that minimizes how much ownership in the company they have to give up to do so.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Anonymous Coward]

First of all, you have the price all wrong because the base model is $44K.

Fixed that for you. You cannot purchase one at the $35K price. Eventually, Tesla will discontinue that version claiming lack of demand just like they when failed to deliver the base model for the S.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Bruce Perens]

Did you short-sell Tesla? Can you create enough bad news about them in time not to lose your shirt?

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Rei]

Oh yeah, I forgot - you can also add in autopilot for $5k, and full self driving (not yet available) for $3k.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Anonymous Coward]

The 3 starts at $44K you cannot buy one at the $35K price point. Eventually Tesla will discontinue that model and lie that there was a lack of domain just like they discontinued the base model for the S.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Rei]

The 3 with PUP and the 310mi range starts at $44k. The short range version deliveries begin in fall, so not exactly a long wait.

Eventually Tesla will discontinue that model and lie that there was a lack of domain just like they discontinued the base model for the S

And your data that it wasn't commonly purchased is?

The higher-range S and X models have continuously drifted down in price over time. Just this week, Model X prices were reduced by $3k. Do you have a problem with that? How exactly do you think things should proceed, if not "prices continue to drop over time as tech advances yield longer ranges, with the shortest range versions eventually discontinued" and "a reasonable attempt is made to have a distinguishing line between midrange prices/featuresets and high-end prices/featuresets"? No, serious, let's hear your copy of If I Ran The Zoo.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Anonymous Coward]

The 3 with PUP and the 310mi range starts at $44k. The short range version deliveries begin in fall, so not exactly a long wait.

Estimated delivery dates for the $35K keep getting pushed back. Eventually it will canceled all to together and Tesla will once again fail to deliver as promised. Plus their factory workers will go on strike and Tesla will go bankrupt.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[green1]

Model S was a $50k car for $60k, the Model 3 is a $35k car for & 49k. This is not a surprise to anyone who's been watching tesla for any length of time.

I own a model S, I love it and think it's the best car ever made. It is also nowhere even close to what Elon promised it would be.

Tesla is the absolute slimiest company I've ever done business with. When they aren't flat out lying about what their product can do, they're wildly exaggerating it, or actively at war with their existing customers.
The Model S is still the best car on the market today. But if I have to replace mine, I could not in good conscience give another penny to such an unethical company. Which is a shame because no other company has yet decided to try to compete with Tesla. I really hope I can keep my Model S going until a competitor arrives, but Tesla isn't making it easy.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[green1]

"not yet available" is a bit of an exaggeration considering it will NEVER be available with the hardware currently on those cars.

Of course considering that the original AP hardware on the S can't do any of the things that Elon promised it would when it was first launched either, that's no suprise. Of course Tesla's been getting a pass on the outright lies around the model S so I'm not sure why they would bother caring about telling the truth on their newer cars.

Anyone who pays for "full self driving" is a sucker.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[green1]

The 3 with PUP and the 310mi range starts at $44k. The short range version deliveries begin in fall, so not exactly a long wait.

That's an awful lot of certainty when talking about a company that has never once met a single deadline that they've imposed on themselves and has a history of many outright lies about future (and even current) products.
You probably also believed that the $50,000 Model S was going to happen.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Anonymous Coward]

I own a model S, I love it and think it's the best car ever made.

Best made car ever.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[green1]

Maybe I need to clarify. Most advanced. Best features. Best practicality.

I won't claim best build quality or best reliability.

There is simply nothing else on the market like it though, it has zero competition, so they can basically get away with anything, as they constantly prove. It's mind boggling to me that no other company is even making the slightest effort to compete.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Anonymous Coward]

Most advanced.

Only if you're a dumbass moron. Electric cars are over 100 years old. There is literally nothing advanced about a piece of shit Tesla.

Best features.

A piece of shit tesla doesn't have a single feature you can't get on a camery.

Best practicality.

The hours it takes to recharge and shit for range make it completely imparactical for a thing other that commuting back and forth to work.

Plus on top of that you are not allowed to repair it. If anything breaks of wears out you're forced to bye a new one.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[green1]

Wow, so much stupidity in one post, where to begin...
Electric cars are old but long-range electric cars are not. As for advanced it's not just the electric powertrain, though that alone does put it away above anything else on the road today, it is also about all the other technology, it would be almost impossible for me to go back to a car that did not have all the simple features that I'm used to now, such things as the ability to turn on the climate control from my SmartWatch ahead of time even if the vehicle is in a closed garage. The autopilot system which completely changes the daily commute, the large screen navigation, waking up every morning to a fully fueled vehicle, and the list just goes on.
For practicality I'm talking such things as the huge cargo volume, the charging at home, the internet connectivity, or basically the day-to-day experience of using a vehicle.
As for your completely incorrect rant about charging times and range, the car has a longer range than I do between meal breaks and charges faster than I can eat I can't imagine needing anything more than that. When I do thousand km + road trips the fact that the car is electric only improves the experience and does not detract from it. In fact the length of time it takes me to do a thousand km road trip has not changed in the slightest from when I used to have an internal combustion vehicle.
As for not being able to repair it, that has zero to do with the car itself and everything to do with the company that sells it, and as I have stated before that company is the slimiest company on the planet. They are not a company that I would willingly give another penny to.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Anonymous Coward]

Congratulations dumbass you over paid for a camery.

And as far as the repair thing, find me a wheel bearing for a 2016 model s.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[green1]

Show me a Camry with autopilot, a 17" touch screen, remote climate control, an always on Internet connection, 60 cubic feet of cargo volume, does 0 to 60 in 4.2, and that never needs to visit a gas station ever.
As for your links about repair I don't have a clue what you're trying to prove. I've already told you that the company that makes the car is the worst company on the face of the planet, I don't know how continuing to prove it is making any point. The car is great, I have absolutely no complaints with the design of the car, it is the best car design that has ever hit the road. Ever. My only true wish is that some other company would step up and compete against it, I would in a heartbeat sell the Tesla and buy another car that had the same functionality, the simple fact is however that no such vehicle exists. The moment one does I will be the first one in line to buy it. I have absolutely no love for Tesla in fact I have never disliked any company as much as I dislike Tesla, and that says an awful lot considering how much Ive hated some other companies in the past. You will not find me defending them as a company. It just happens to be that the car they've produced is the only one in its segment no other vehicle actually competes there. It's not that I don't think other companies could compete there, they definitely could, it's just that they don't seem to have the desire to do so.
I actually wish that a Camry would do the same things because if that was the case I would have a camry in a heartbeat.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Anonymous Coward]

Show me a Camry with autopilot

Autopilot is nothing more than cruise control, lane assist and auto braking all available on a camery. Except on a piece of shit tesla that's auto breaking.

a 17" touch screen

Only a dumbass moron thinks that's a good thing.

remote climate control

Remote car starters are nothing decades old.

ran always on Internet connection

Only a dumbass moron thinks that's a good thing.

60 cubic feet of cargo volume

Which is completely unusable.

does 0 to 60 in 4.2

Has a lower top speed and shit for range compared to a camera.

and that never needs to visit a gas station ever.

Only a dumbass moron things being stranded for hours with a piece of shit electric is better than spending one minute a gas station.

But go and enjoy your over priced camery with the build quality of a Kia dumbass.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Anonymous Coward]

Man it sucks that you've been pulled in to arguing with the troll. I'm really sorry you have to put up with that, but I would like to say that as someone thinking about buying a Tesla I'm curious what sorts of things make you call them the slimiest company? I'm one of those people with a preorder reservation for a Model 3. Should I still get one?

Re: Intelligent man loses his mind

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously! When did /. readers, optimistic about the future, get replaced with a bunch of whining do-nothings? 80% of the comments are anti-Tesla... what have you people ever done!?

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Rei]

I actually agree with that. I think it's stupid to pay for full self driving, and I think Tesla is being way too optimistic the timeframe. I'm not prepared to say that the hardware can't support it, but I think the challenge - both regulatory and technological - is IMHO much harder than their timeframe supports.

AP works, although its reliability level gives it mixed reviews (more positive than negative, but still decidedly mixed). Tesla really got set back when they had to start over with AP2 after the contract dispute; it's only just now getting up to the capabilities of AP1. Some people find that AP takes a great load off their mind on long trips, having only to make the occasional correction rather than hyperfocus on every detail - while others find it puts more stress on them, having to watch doing nothing but still have to make corrections at random intervals. Most people like the adaptive cruise control, but that's not as impressive as what people really want from autopilot. Self parking and the like is also popular, but not considered worth the value on its own.

There are a lot of people who think that autopilot is "the reason" to get a Tesla - they love it, they think it's the future, etc. Other reviews are decidedly more mixed. And of course FSD is a phantom product at the moment.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Rei]

Yes, they keep getting pushed back, and have been a whopping zero times. The only pushing of the schedule was when the whole schedule got pushed forward last year. And so far at least they've met the pushed-forward schedule.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Rei]

a company that has never once met a single deadline that they've imposed on themselves

You mean like delivering the first 30 vehicles at the end of July 2017? When the original announcement was that delivery would begin in late 2017?

as a history of many outright lies about future (and even current) products. You probably also believed that the $50,000 Model S was going to happen.

They're currently selling a $35k Model S (the Model 3). I'll have that one, thanks.

And for the record, the Model S was supposed to go on sale with a base price of $57,4k at the 40kWh pack level. Which it did, and was manufactured for a year before they canceled it because only 4% of their preorders were for it (shock of all shocks, people want more range than a Leaf). Golly gee willickers, what a scandal, a company cancelling an unpopular product line after giving it a year. I assume you find it even more scandalous that people who had active reservations on the 40kWh version got a 60kWh pack locked to 40kWh (aka, upgradeable, faster charging, less stress on the cells) at no extra charge?

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[drinkypoo]

They're currently selling a $35k Model S (the Model 3). I'll have that one, thanks.

The Model 3 is not a $35k Model S. The Model S already has iffy interior quality compared to other vehicles in its price class, the Model 3 degrades that even further to meet the price point.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Rei]

The abundant test drive reviews disagree with you.

Motor Trend - Exclusive: Tesla Model 3 First Drive Review - Motor Trend

Top Gear- Tesla Model 3 review: first drive of Elon Musk's affordable EV

The Verge - A closer look at Tesla Model 3's spartan interior

The Verge - Tesla Model 3 first drive: this is the car that Elon Musk promised

Bloomberg - Tesla’s Model 3 Arrives With a Surprise 310-Mile Range

Bloomberg[/COLOR] - Driving Tesla’s Model 3 Changes Everything

Car and Driver - 2018 Tesla Model 3: Everything We Know | Feature | Car and Driver

CNET - Tesla Model 3 is well worth the hype

Car Advice - Tesla Model 3 quick drive review | CarAdvice

Fortune - Here’s What Reviewers Think About Tesla’s Model 3 So Far

Ars Technica - All the things the Internet hates about the Tesla Model 3 have me excited

Mashable - Driving a Tesla Model 3 is pretty damn awesome

TechCrunch - Your smartphone is the key for the Tesla Model 3

But hey, feel free to live in your own little world and deny reality to your heart's content.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[drinkypoo]

The reviewers I watch on Youtube have all commented on the cheapness of the interior. I don't think that it's going to impede sales or anything, but it's not a luxury vehicle. Even the Model S is only mid-range in terms of luxury appointments. An Audi ten years older is nicer inside. Mine is even older than that, and at least everything is soft-touch, which is still not true inside the Model S. They've also just eliminated the leather seating option; making it non-standard is the best decision for a lot of reasons, but eliminating it altogether is the wrong one.

Meanwhile, the best things people have to say about the Model 3 interior are "minimalist", "uncluttered" or "airy" (from your own links — have you read them?) When the reviewers are talking about the negative space in your design, that means that there is nothing noteworthy in your design. But the materials are cheap. This is not true of all plastics, for example the synthetic leather on the seats in the Model S — but even the Model S has cheap materials exposed in the cockpit. It's possible that Tesla's new designer (from Volvo) will fix these problems, but improvement in the Model S can't come before the 2018 model year, and we already know what this year's Model 3 is going to look like inside: spartan.

The interior of the Model 3 is completely acceptable at its starting price point. I'm not sure that it is really acceptable at its upper price point, but I'm sure they'll fix that. I'm sure they'll fix the interior of the Model S as well, which is unacceptable anywhere on its pricing spectrum, but it's honestly ridiculous that it's taken them this long.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is the absolute slimiest company I've ever done business with. When they aren't flat out lying about what their product can do, they're wildly exaggerating it, or actively at war with their existing customers.

FTFY

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Rei]

The reviewers I watch on Youtube have all commented on the cheapness of the interior.

I don't know what "reviewers you watch on Youtube", but I'm going to guess that a whopping zero percent of them have ever been inside a Model 3. The vehicle was opened up to the press, which is not a huge total number of people, at the launch event. People who were at the launch event - mainly employees and their guests - also got rides. The only other people to ride in them are the first 30 owners - mainly Tesla board members and the like - and people they've given rides too. Odds are that your random Youtube "reviewers" have never even seen one in person.

But the journalists writing articles for Motor Trend and the like have. So read what they actually say about it.

I don't think that it's going to impede sales or anything, but it's not a luxury vehicle

Actual reviewers who've been in actual vehicles disagree with you. See above.

and at least everything is soft-touch, which is still not true inside the Model S.

Again, facepalm. One of the main things reviewers have described about the Model 3 is how soft everything is. The seats are described as being almost like a pillow.

Look, you seriously need to get your info from people who have actually been inside the vehicle. Not random BSers on Youtube.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Neuronwelder]

Umm. Google didn't say that about the Model 3. But maybe you know more about car pricing than me. I'm NOT against electric cars. I think electric cars are the greatest thing since sliced bread! But even 35k is a hefty price for the average Joe or Susan. And Insurance rates are NOT going down!! OUCH!.. But a million miles on one car? That's TEMPTING.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Neuronwelder]

Sorry you took my comment that way. I wanted you to know that its not like Elon Musk to take a chance on his stocks like that. He's a brainey bright dude!

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[green1]

Every word out of their mouths is a lie.
When they unveiled AP originally they made the following promises as they took everyone's money:
- hands free on ramp to off ramp driving
- summon that will find It's way to you anywhere you are on private property
- automatic emergency braking that would bring the vehicle to a complete stop
- stop sign and traffic light detection
- automatically adjust to speed limits
- system that worked at any speed

Not a single one of those items was ever delivered. Now they have AP2.0 which does even less than the original, but that they now claim will be full self driving if you pay enough money. Thing is, AP2.0 can never be full self driving. It doesn't include enough hardware to do so. There is no way they'll ever get approval to put it on the road with autonomy when it doesn't even have rear of cross traffic radars. And the version currently available still hasn't caught up to their own product from 2 years ago.

And it doesn't end there either. They've also been caught lying about horsepower, battery capacity, etc. After charging people an extra 10,000 for ludicrous mode they were caught putting counters in the cars that limit your acceleration if you use it too often, the list just goes on and on.

And all of that is only secondary to my real objections to them.

After purchase they actually reached in to the car that I own outright, and without my permission removed functionality that it had at delivery. In fact, with every single software update they removed more functionality. Autopilot was at its peak at the end of 2015, ever since then every software update has added nags, limited where it can be used, limited the speed with which it can be used, added punishment if it nags you more than 3 times in a trip, etc.
You can pretend that software updates are optional, but if you don't update other features stop working, for example, of you're still on the firmware where AP was at its peak, you'd no longer have voice control or mapping.

Beyond that, Tesla won't allow any third party repair. There is only one place that can fix a Tesla, and that's Tesla themselves. And I'm not just talking major repairs either, you can't change a door handle or a side mirror without reflashing the firmware, something only Tesla can do. And even if you could, they won't sell many parts to any third party. In addition to that, they have the highest hourly shop rates I've ever seen, and extremely high parts prices, if you can even get an appointment, and if they can even get the part themselves. Forums are full of people waiting 6 or 8 months for parts for collision repairs. And 2-3 months for a simple service appointment. And that's before Model 3 hits the road in large quantities.

Tesla is the only company I've ever seriously considered a lawsuit against, and I still haven't ruled it out.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[green1]

You've obviously never experienced Tesla. They make Apple look honest, open, and inexpensive.
I really dislike Apple, but Tesla takes every horrible thing that Apple does she cranks it up to 11.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Neuronwelder]

I'm sorry but I disagree. People don't have the money to shop, period. ON the other hand - the Web: Let's think about it for a second. Example: You buy a coat or a pair of pants online, They don't fit or something is wrong with them. You have to re-box the item, Spend the time to go, and/or wait in line in the post office if its busy. Talk to the post person to get an address label. Wait for the product to get back to get your money, or exchange the product. - Example: Going to the store. Something doesn't fit you. You simply put it back on the rack or whatever. You move on to the next item. It fits. You buy the right one. Done! One trip did that all. Even I shop on the Web for computer/electronic/cookware items. Because the stores now only stock mainstream items. I want to see and feel what I'm going to buy before I buy it. I'm not going to blindly buy a car or a motorcycle online without seeing/driving it. I still go to Office max for items. The are the same price or a few bucks more. With a 2 week trial period to return the item I'm sold! And I get to closely visualize the product when I'm at the store. Almost everyone in this room knows that a computer PSU that is light, is cheaply made.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Neuronwelder]

Again, that's the price I saw on Google. And again, maybe you know more about prices that I. And maybe you can afford the price, and insurance, on that vehicle.. I do LIKE a car that gets a million miles! (don't know about it rusting to death before it does :(

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[randallman]

"Tesla is the absolute slimiest company I've ever done business with." And you accuse Tesla of exaggerating? I own a 2016 S and I can say without hesitation that it's the best car buying experience and the best "dealer" experience of any car I've owned. Ever. The car is exactly what I hoped for and even exceeded my expectations. Autopilot is wonderful on long trips. Charging/Supercharging works as advertised. The car is wicked powerful and will effortlessly (really, half throttle, no drama) embarrass "muscle cars" leaving a stop light. Room for the kids and plenty of stuff. Comfortable and soooo quiet. Pre-warm/cool in the garage. No idling in carpool and filter for the tail pipes in front of you. I could go on.

"I really hope I can keep my Model S going until a competitor arrives, but Tesla isn't making it easy" B.S. Now I think you're posing. Probably a dealer pissed off about Tesla's sales model. The cars come with 8 year battery and powertrain warranties and Tesla has backed it up.

Problems? I haven't had any major problems, just some minor stuff. Sticky wiper blade. Door trim misaligned. Dash rattle. And what did the "unethical", "slimiest" company ever do? Fixed it all. Fast. Gave me a loaner. Really, the only thing they didn't do was come pick up my car. And they actually have a ranger service, so I guess that's covered too.

Contrast that with my local Jeep dealer who told me it would be a month before they could fix my jeep (wouldn't start - I fixed it myself thanks to forums) and again a month for a software update (recall related). Oh, and spilled oil all over my motor during an oil change and didn't put the cap on right so it popped off.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Anonymous Coward]

>Tesla is the absolute slimiest company I've ever done business with. When they aren't flat out lying about what their product can do, they're wildly exaggerating it, or actively at war with their existing customers.
The Model S is still the best car on the market today.

You're fucking retarded.

This is why I hate stereotypical white people. Give them the fucking best bang for your buck car on the goddamn planet, only some of them will admit that. And the remaining ignorant asshole retards will claim that the company is slimy, even though they haven't been in a goddamn showroom, used car lot or been househunting in 5+ years.

'wildly exaggerting it'

Welcome to marketing. Did you fucking test drive the car first? Did you do your research?

'actively at war with their existing customers'

Apple and Microsoft called. They said that they're glad that you don't know anything about context, and are glad that you don't understand how their 'planned obsolence' and Windows 10 S operating systems are being continued as we type.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Rei]

$35k is approximately the average price for a new car in the US.

As for insurance, over on the Tesla forums, most people's quotes are coming at surprisingly low amounts - often replacing vehicles that are several years old at the same rate. A likely reason is Tesla's heavy focus on crash safety, including various crash avoidance features (autobraking, etc).

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[green1]

Autopilot is amazing yes but it still can't do even a single one of the many items listed at the D reveal event. You rave about how great the car is and I agree it is the best car ever made. However Tesla has lied about every single function they've put on it they've been caught lying about battery pack sizes, horsepower, capabilities of autopilot, not to mention the little scndal where they put counters in ludacris cars to disable the feature if you use it more than a handful of times. In addition to that autopilot was at its peak in 2015 and has gone downhill significantly since then, in fact they reached into people's cars and actively removed functionality from the vehicle after sale despite the fact that they no longer own the vehicle. That is what I consider slimy, no company has the right to remove functionality from a product after they sell it. If they think they shouldn't have included that functionality their only recourse is to not include it in future sales, they have no right to remove things from a car they've already sold. As for the car buying experience it is the absolute worst car buying experience I've ever had. Despite buying a used vehicle from them I was not able to see the vehicle before purchase, I wasn't even able to see pictures of the vehicle before purchase, the only thing I could see was computer renderings and what the vehicle theoretically looked like. Additionally despite the fact that the vehicle was in stock it still took them 2 months to deliver it, that's inexcusable for any vehicle that's in stock. Additionally at no point during that two months were they even able to give me a rough estimate as to delivery date until suddenly I got a phone call from them saying they wanted to deliver it in less than an hour midday on a weekday and I that I better have all the money available and be ready to receive the vehicle right at that exact second.

Now they continue their charade by promising full self driving in a vehicle that obviously will never ever be capable of it. There's no way any government is going to allow a full self-driving vehicle that has no cross traffic or rear radar on it. but in true Tesla form they're going to take your money for it and then move the goalposts when it finally comes time.

And I won't even go into the ridiculous repair system where only Tesla is allowed to make repairs, even to minor things like a door handle, because you need to reflash the firmware and only Tesla allowed to do that. And then with the most expensive hourly shop rate and some of the most expensive parts in the industry, and no ability to go elsewhere for them. We could also talk about the people waiting 6-8 months or longer for parts for a collision repair or two to three months for a simple service appointment.

Don't get me wrong I love my Model S I just can't stand the company that sold it. And for that reason I really wish there was actual competition. As it stands there is not a single other vehicle on the market that competes with the model S.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[green1]

I never said the car wasn't the best car in existence. In fact I specifically said it was.
Is the company, not the car, I have a problem with.
Exaggerating is one thing, but they flat out lied. They haven't delivered even a single one of the feature they claimed autopilot would do, they lied about the battery capacity, and the horsepower, and they actively STOLE functionally from the vehicle after delivery.

Yes I test drove it, but the features I paid for weren't available at the time. Yes I researched, and every single statement from the company was consistent about what I was buying, they were also all lies. And even if I had test driven this exact car before purchase, something Tesla doesn't allow, it still would have been a different car then than it is now as it had more functionality when I bought it than it dioes now due to their theft of features after sale.

Not sure why you bring Microsoft in to this, they don't make cars, and although they do awful things, they still aren't on par with Tesla for dishonesty.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, the local Tesla Service Center has a lower labor rate than the VW dealer, the Mercedes dealer, the BMW dealer, and the Toyota dealer, all nearby. The last time I needed a service appointment I got one in two days.

And why won't the government allow self driving without cross traffic or rear radar? Right now you're driving a car and you don't have cross traffic sensors or rear radar, you have eyes. The car as it stands can look in more directions at once than you can.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[drinkypoo]

I don't know what "reviewers you watch on Youtube", but I'm going to guess that a whopping zero percent of them have ever been inside a Model 3.

All of them have. Stop choking on old media cock.

and at least everything is soft-touch, which is still not true inside the Model S.

Again, facepalm. One of the main things reviewers have described about the Model 3 is how soft everything is. The seats are described as being almost like a pillow.

The fact that you are talking about seats shows that you know fuck-all about what "soft-touch materials" means in automotive interior. Please fuck off.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[RhettLivingston]

I think you're justifying your views based on your preferences. I don't think the evidence supports your view as being in the dominant trend, but I'm no economic expert.

From what I see, consumer spending gains have been steadily outpacing inflation even in the face of a falloff in vehicle sales since vehicles peaked in the 2014 timeframe. If that isn't due to an increase in spending on the stuff normally sold in stores even while stores are closing, then what is it?

In addition, it appears that e-commerce has been growing at a steady rate of 13-19% year over year every year since 2009 while overall commerce growth is much lower. So, e-commerce is scavenging commerce.

I'd say that the numbers don't hold up your opinion that the closing of stores is due to apparent problems in the consumer spending front. Rather, many people are happy with shopping online and as the online businesses get better and better at customer service (returning clothes to Amazon is just a matter of putting the package back on your doorstep), the changeover will only accelerate. Eventually, the brick and mortar stores will lose enough volume that they will have to change their business to one of selling at a premium to the few left who have to have that hands on experience.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[green1]

The car can't look around the dirt on the camera. You can. Thinking of which, Tesla's AP cameras (with the exception of the front one) have no way of cleaning dirt or even rain off of them. They won't work in inclement weather.

"full self driving" is just as honest as "hands free on-ramp to off-ramp" was on AP1, or how about "will come to you anywhere you are on private property" remember that lie? how about "recognizes stop signs and traffic lights"? AP 1 was going to do that too. in fact of all the claims Elon made about AP during the D event, I can't actually find ANY that it has delivered on.

Tesla has been given a free pass on all their lies so far, they see no reason to start telling the truth now.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Rei]

All of them have

Well, gee, this should be really easy then! Link one.

The fact that you are talking about seats shows that you know fuck-all about what "soft-touch materials" means in automotive interior. Please fuck off.

Believe it or not, seats are part of an interior. And please reread the first sentence, with a focus on the word everything.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Neuronwelder]

Well, I got new, 2017, bare bones, Toyota Corolla for under $24,000.00. (extended waranty cost me close to $3,000.00) But you must be thinking of some other brands, which indeed are more expensive. (I'm cheap, I almost bought a Yaris) It's interesting to know that Tesla's Insurance is low, I'm pleasantly surprised! If I had the money, I'd buy one. I love electric cars. Gas Engines: Due to frictional losses, you only get 10% of horsepower at the wheels. A 500 peak gas horsepower engine is only getting 50 hp to the wheels, due to frictional losses. A 50 hp DC Electric motor, with pulse width modulation can deliver 50 hp after just a few revolutions. They can temporarily withstand over voltage. But you pay with a shorter lifespan Here's an Electric Drag Racing Site that has existed for for way over a decade: http://www.nedra.com/

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Neuronwelder]

I hope what you are saying does not happen at least till the end of my life. I can't picture not going to the shopping mall, grocery store, or hardware store. For me, what would I have left to do? Stay home and play with my computer? Play my piano? (fun for a while). And never being able to see or hold the object in my hand before I buy it? Well.. I guess everybody has different tastes. It leaves very few places to see people, and perhaps even to start a conversation.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[RhettLivingston]

There was an article on here complaining about the changes in the newer generation recently (as in probably every week of slashdot s existence). The truth is, the older generations almost always end their reign with their lifestyle subsumed by the new. It is the way of the world. I do my best to minimize it by trying to focus on how amazing it is, seeking to understand the new balances, and adapting as much as I can. Fighting it just leads to misery.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a difference between lying and circumstances changing. Like how when a newly wed man says he'll love his wife forever, then 5 years later she cheats on him and they divorce. Now he doesn't love her. Did he lie when he originally said he'd love her forever?

When Tesla made grandiose claims regarding their Autopilot they were in a relationship with Mobileye. The status of that relationship changed, which also changed what they could deliver with regards to autopilot. That's not a lie.

Really, any prediction about the future are just that, predictions. So, when they don't come true, they're not lies, they're just failed predictions.

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[green1]

It's all part of a pattern.
My 85kWh battery is only 77kWh,
the P85D's 691 horespower is only 463,
Ludicrous mode batteries had a counter in them to neuter the acceleration after a set number of launches,
The list goes on. These are not the actions of a reputable company.

As for the Mobileye thing, that had no bearing on many of Tesla's actions. For instance, the AP1 cars have nags if you take your hands off the wheel, originally they only occurred in turns, now they occur every 30 seconds, and if they happen 3 times you have to pull over and park before you can use the system again. It originally worked at any speed on any road, now it works only to 5mph over the random number the car picks that it incorrectly thinks the speed limit is on many roads. Mobileye didn't enforce that, Tesla did, and tellingly, they did it AFTER delivery of the cars. In other words, they removed functionality AFTER sale, that's illegal in most of the world.

Never mind that Tesla never said that these features "might" happen, or "may" happen, they didn't use any qualifiers, and they DID take money based on the promises. If it's only something that "might" happen, maybe they shouldn't have taken anyone's money until it did? Or when it didn't happen maybe they should have refunded the money that they took from people through fraudulent means?

And now of course, AP2 still hasn't caught up to where AP1 was in October of 2015, and yet we're supposed to believe that AP2 will be full self driving at some point in the future if we just fork over the money and wait. How big a sucker would you have to be?

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[Anonymous Coward]

Your 85kWh battery is software limited to 77kWh to increase the longevity of the battery, since charging it to full capacity reduces the longevity. The batteries do technically have the capacity you mention, so it's not incorrect. What does the actual kWh of the battery matter anyways? When it comes down to it, we really want to know is what the EPA range is and how long it'll take to charge from empty.

The horsepower outputted by the motors is still 691, but there are other limitations that make the useable horsepower 463, which is actually just an average, this number can be lower or higher. Therefore it's not incorrect to state 691 since that's what the motors are capable of outputting this under ideal conditions. Being upset about this is akin to being upset that a car can't ALWAYS go 600km before running out of gas (because this depends on whether or not you start with a full tank or how fast you drive).

Ludicrous mode is/was limited due to the extra wear and tear that it puts on the car. Alerting drivers of this fact is a good thing, not a bad thing. And as you are probably aware, you can bypass this warning now and continue to damage your car, so this complaint is not applicable.

The changes in AP nags and requirements were directly related to problems associated with AP accidents. For example that guy who got beheaded. After this, too many people were saying that the system should be made safer. I wouldn't blame this one on Tesla, it's those people who insist that the system will kill us all who are ruining it for everyone.

And you're expecting Tesla to quantify every future prediction with "might" or "may"? Every statement about the future is automatically a "might" or "may" statement.

I can't comment on the parity between AP1 and AP2 as I have no personal experience, but I've read that AP2 is really close now. It says in that article that the "latest update is bringing Autopilot 2.0 back to around the same level of efficiency as the first generation of Autopilot".

Re:Intelligent man loses his mind

[green1]

Wow... Stockholm syndrome much?

No, my battery is NOT software limited, it is quite simply less than 85kWh. They lied about the capacity. This has been confirmed by people disassembling the battery, and testing the individual cells. This is NOT a software limit, this is false advertising.

The horsepower output of the motors isn't relevant if the battery can't output it. Why don't normal car manufacturers say that their axles are capable of 50,000 horsepower then? because it would be stupid to quote the horespower of a part that isn't the limiting factor. Again, Tesla lied and used false advertising. sure it can be higher than 463, but it can not, under any circumstance even come close to the advertised number.

I love how you think the ludicrous mode complaint is irrelevant now because Tesla was caught, and after much arguing, finally relented under threat of many lawsuits and now allows people to access what they paid for. That's not Tesla being right, that's Tesla being caught! They never advertised any limits to ludicrous mode, they simply quoted the performance numbers and took money. That's called fraud and false advertising. They were caught and had to back track, how ethical of them.

The changes in AP nags do exactly ZERO to enhance safety, what they do is allow Tesla's PR department (the only part of the company Tesla cares about) to claim a few wins. It's still illegal, unethical, and fraudulent behaviour to remove functionality after purchase. If they regretted their decision they could have stopped selling the feature to new customers, but you can't retroactively change the terms of a sale after it is complete.

And, no, I'm not expecting Tesla to qualify every statement, I'm asking (not expecting) them to stop LYING TO CUSTOMERS and to stop TAKING MONEY BY FRAUDULENT MEANS.

They are the least ethical company on the entire planet. And that takes a LOT of doing.

Re:Why not just build some cars, sell them, then r

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe small investors (read: donators) are the way forward for them. If government/VC money ever dries up, just start a Patreon account and milk the Elon cultists dry. Offer them donor rewards like signed (stamped) pictures of Elon or fake stock shares like the Green Bay Packers have. Of course smugness is the real reward; the physical object need only serve as a visible avatar suitable for parading around on social media.

They're essentially the same people that Apple milks $200 billion/year out of, so I feel like a couple billion for an only-slightly-less-useful product isn't out of the question.

Re:Why not just build some cars, sell them, then r

[Rei]

Yeah, nobody wants their stupid Model 3. Except for the half million people waiting in line for it, but apart from that, nobody! ;)

Re:Why not just build some cars, sell them, then r

[Anonymous Coward]

The vast majority of which have been canceled.

Re:Why not just build some cars, sell them, then r

[Rei]

If another person on this thread makes that stupid misunderstanding of the "60k cancellations" statement I'm literally going to hit my head on the wall. That's 60k over the coarse of the past year, while the total number of active reservations has climbed to nearly half a million. After the first deliveries they were netting (read: positive) 1800 new reservations per day.

Re:Why not just build some cars, sell them, then r

[Anonymous Coward]

[citation needed]

Tesla lied.

Re:Why not just build some cars, sell them, then r

[Rei]

The 60k number comes from Tesla. Do you pick and choose to believe only the things Tesla says that you can scream "Dooooom!" about and call everything else a lie?

The cash flow from customer deposits makes up revenue that is declared in SEC filings. So if you think that the company is faking it, and for some reason the SEC is missing it, by all means take your conspiracy to the SEC.

Re:Why not just build some cars, sell them, then r

[Anonymous Coward]

Well nobody with a clue wants their stupid Model 3. You can buy much better cars for the same money (or less) and actually pick them up in less than 2 years.

Re:Why not just build some cars, sell them, then r

[Anonymous Coward]

The 60k number comes from Tesla.

And fails to include massive number of cancellations after the car was finally revealed to the public.

Musk is a compulsive liar.

Re:Why not just build some cars, sell them, then r

[Rei]

And fails to include massive number of cancellations after the car was finally revealed to the public.

Got it. Tesla is lying to the SEC, and the SEC doesn't give a rat's arse.

You've convinced me! Subscribe me to your newsletter!

NOPE, MAN NOPE

[gl4ss]

selling more stock would mean musk/tesla losing stock value, diluting their share.

selling bonds means EVERYONE who holds the stock loses value for that amount. ..are you getting perhaps now why it is being given junk bond ratings?

Re:NOPE, MAN NOPE

[Rei_is_a_dumbass]

You're wasting your time trying to explain this to the musketeers. They are too stupid to realize musk is a con artist.

Re:NOPE, MAN NOPE

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be weird if Tesla was at the same bond rating as a Microsoft or General Electric. Even if you think Tesla is amazing and the stock is priced fairly, they are not a company that are 100% are going to exist in 5 years. It makes sense that you accept a higher interest rate in return for this risk. It doesn't mean the company is "junk," you just don't understand how bonds work.

If Telsa can take this money and make 300% returns on it, than this bond deal is amazing for the shareholders!

Re:NOPE, MAN NOPE

[Anonymous Coward]

If Telsa can take this money and make 300% returns on it, than this bond deal is amazing for the shareholders!

Except Tesla can't and PT Musk knows it. He using this to prop up the stock, then he'll cash out and tesla will declare bankruptcy.

Re:NOPE, MAN NOPE

[gl4ss]

"If Telsa can take this money and make 300% returns on it, than this bond deal is amazing for the shareholders!"

Re:NOPE, MAN NOPE

[GLMDesigns]

Junk bond primarily means that it isn't backed by something liquid. In the 1980s (when junk bonds first came out) there were many firms that were rich in land, buildings, factories but needed cash-on-hand. The bond market came up with a new set of bonds which their detractors called "junk". Why is it riskier? Because a cash-short company who uses machines (junk) as collateral cannot easily pay back the bond holder if things don't go as anticipated.

If that happens the company will have to sell the machines it uses to make money -- and a machine that cost $100,000 will sell for a fraction of what it cost. (Again - the reason it's called a "Junk" bond)

If you believe that Tesla has a future then here is an easy way to make to make 5% on your money. The risk is that as of now Tesla has been losing money. But, then we have the example of Amazon losing money for 10+ years straight and now it's the 800 lb gorilla in the room.

Microsoft? Who's that? IBM? huh!!! (years ago people feared Microsoft, and before that IBM)

Re:NOPE, MAN NOPE

[jeremyp]

Yeah we hear that thing about Amazon and people seem to think that just because Amazon was a start up that started out by losing money and is now hugely successful it means that all companies that start out losing money can become hugely successful at the flick of a switch.

Amazon had a truly disruptive business model and by the time anybody else realised they could do the same thing, Amazon already had such strong brand recognition, it didn't matter.

By contrast, Tesla is a car manufacturer. There is nothing about a Tesla that cannot be easily emulated by another manufacturer. The only radical thing Tesla has done is made electric cars that are desirable. All previous efforts tended to be aimed at the budget econobox end of the market. As soon as a major manufacturer makes a good electric car that people might want to own because it is good rather than just worthy, Tesla will be toast.

If I were Elon Musk, I'd be looking at trying to getting a head start in areas where traditional manufacturers don't have the advantage. I'd be looking at autonomous driving for the long term future and battery technology for the immediate future. If he has the best batteries, he can stop messing about making cars and just sell them to everybody else and not just car manufacturers. Why does he not see that.... oh, wait.

Re: NOPE, MAN NOPE

[KGIII]

I bought ~$20,000 worth of Tesla stock, at a time when they sold at ~$24.00. So, about 830 shares. Each one is somewhere near $365.00 today. I haven't sold any. I still trust Musk with my money, in other words.

Re: NOPE, MAN NOPE

[Crosshair84]

People trusted Bernie Madoff with their money too and got fantastic returns.

Re:Why not just build some cars, sell them, then r

[Rei_is_a_dumbass]

The "refundable reservations" are not revenue. They are required to report it to the SEC. Plus that number very conveniently leaves out all the massive number of cancelations since the pricing, shit interior and lone production delays we're reviled to the public. The reason they need this bailout is because says ended up massively slower than they anticipated.

Re: Why not just build some cars, sell them, then

[bn-7bc]

How is ir a bailout when a company issues more debt for them selves, without aby governmebt help?

Data?

[bill_mcgonigle]

What's the symbol? What's the yield?

Auto Company Profits

[PortHaven]

Well look at all the other automobile manufacturers, many of them have failed to be profitable in many years. And these are well established corporations with almost a century of history building meager evolutionary products rather than innovative ones.

All things considered, Tesla is doing surprisingly well considering. I do hope they succeed. But I think they need to move beyond cars and expand into infrastructure to do that.

Re:Auto Company Profits

[haruchai]

"But I think they need to move beyond cars and expand into infrastructure to do that"
Already underway but I think Musk should forget about Boring & Hyperloop and build up the energy storage business & look at becoming or partnering with a utility.
Getting the Tres Amigas Superstation built & operating would be a huge win both for renewables & grid stability across the US South from Miami to Mt Shasta and backing it with battery storage would be a triumph for Tesla.

Tesla IS Junk

[Anonymous Coward]

Zero profits, increasing year over year losses, and zero prospect for scaled up production. Then of course there is general company mismanagement, violation of capitalist agency ignoring the rights of stockholders, and mistreatment of workers on a consistent basis. Musk is incompetent and any new investors are idiots, while any old investors are just patsies.

Your speaking apples and oranges.

[PortHaven]

Tesla can make 25% profit on each vehicle, and still not be a profitable company. They're not the same thing.

Let's simplify. I sell a widget for $100. Each widget costs me $75 to make. I earn $25 per widget. However, I can only build a 1,000 widgets. My maximum earnings are $25,000. But I have orders for 5,000 and market potential for 100,000. But in order to produce that many I will need to build a new factory for $500,000. So I borrow money to build the $500,000 factory. Now I have a $100,000 a year loan payment. I am running a loss of -$75,000 a year. So is that bad? Well, it depends. If I can now scale up to 5,000 orders. I'll earn a $125,000 on my widgets, and after the paying the -$100K I'll have a $25,000 annual profit. What, that's no better than what I had before I took this loan. True... But now my factory can make up to 100,000 widgets. If I can continue to increase market share I can grow. And now I have room to be profitable beyond $25,000 - which I was capped at prior. And this is essentially what is going on.

The question is, do I really have 5,000 orders waiting and market potential for more. If so, then this is not a concern, but if those are not realized then there will be issues. I need at a minimum the 5,000 orders to remain in business. But if I can even get 10,000 then I will achieve growth and profitability.

Re:Your speaking apples and oranges.

[LynnwoodRooster]

No, you are looking at the profit that all the Tesla fans throw around incorrectly. The 25% is the GROSS profit - meaning, you make that $25 per widget. But what about sales costs? Overhead? Shipping? Utilities? Marketing? Those add another $30 of cost. NOW we want to expand our factory as well, which is another $15 in cost. Our gross profit of $25 is now -$20. We're losing $20 per unit. Unless your expansion of the factory can bring the costs per unit down at least $20 (a ~30% decrease in production cost), you're still going to lose money on each and every unit.

Re:Your speaking apples and oranges.

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have some examples where a larger production facility does not bring costs down?

So why do others have to pay for someone's ego?

[rgutbrod]

The owner of Tesla has billions in wealth. Why isn't he footing the bill?

Re: Why not just build some cars, sell them, then

[Anonymous Coward]

What company didn't get government help? Tesla got MILLIONS worth of hand outs.