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NASA Looks At Reviving Atomic Rocket Program (newatlas.com)

Big Hairy Ian shares a report from New Atlas: When the first manned mission to Mars sets out, it may be on the tail of an atomic rocket engine. The Space Race vintage technology could have a renaissance at NASA after the space agency's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama signed a contract with BWXT Nuclear Energy to develop updated Nuclear Thermal Propulsion (NTP) concepts and new fuel elements to power them.

Today, with NASA once again considering the challenges of sending astronauts to Mars, the nuclear option is back on the table as part of the agency's Game Changing Development program. Under this, NASA has awarded BMXT, which supplies nuclear fuel to the U.S. Navy, a $18.8-million contract running through September 30, 2019 to look into the possibility of developing a new engine using a new type of fuel. Unlike previous designs using highly enriched uranium, BMXT will study the use of Low-Enriched Uranium (LEU), which has less than 20 percent of fissile uranium 235. This will provide a number of advantages. Not only is it safer than the highly enriched fuel, but the security arrangements are less burdensome, and the handling regulations are the same as those of a university research reactor. If NASA determines next month that the LEU engine is feasible, the project will conduct testing and refine the manufacturing process of the Cermet fuel elements over the course of a year, with testing of the full-length Cermet fuel rods to be conducted at Marshall.

Slashdot reader Big Hairy Ian adds: "At the very least it looks much more feasible than Project Orion."

122 comments

  1. What could possibly go wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is basically strapping a nuclear weapon to yourself and accelerating to massive speeds. What could possibly go wrong? This is precisely why we need hydrocarbons to supply power for rockets and planes. Although nuclear fuel has the capability to power those vehicles, it is simply much too dangerous.

    1. Re:What could possibly go wrong? by someone1234 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Come on. You can die even if you strap yourself behind a horse. You remind me of people who said (about 2 centuries ago) that going over 40 km/hours kills a human.
      Speed doesn't kill
      Acceleration may kill (solution, don't accelerate beyond harmful limits).
      Radiation may kill (shield yourself).

      --
      Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
    2. Re:What could possibly go wrong? by cheesybagel · · Score: 2

      No. This sounds like a solid core nuclear rocket. Like NERVA or Dumbo. It's not that different from a plain old nuclear reactor. There's a core with the uranium rods in the middle inside an enclosed metal shell which heats the liquid hydrogen or liquid ammonia reaction mass outside that then gets ejected outwards. The only way it would leak radiation is if the metal containment failed and even then it would be a much lower level of radiation than a nuclear explosion. It would be more akin to a nuclear power plant venting over like what happened in Chernobyl.

      I've heard of no plans to use these in the atmosphere. From the sounds of it they're basically planning to make a nuclear engine similar to Dumbo so that has too low a thrust-to-weight ratio to even consider using as a first stage and would only be used in upper stage application (i.e. only fired in space) to propel probes or spacecraft to far away planets.

    3. Re:What could possibly go wrong? by cheesybagel · · Score: 2
    4. Re:What could possibly go wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The unreasoning fear of the concept of nuclear is why all those catalytic reactors in automobiles are called catalytic converters.

    5. Re:What could possibly go wrong? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2

      Fission designs have the advantage that a crew could be 'shaded' from solar flares by the heavy-isoptope fuel load. The ship's safe room would be positioned to exploit this effect.

    6. Re:What could possibly go wrong? by dddux · · Score: 1

      Getting married could kill you, too. If your wife is a serial killer. :/

      --
      "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti
  2. Re:Good, save the enriched uranium for other uses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, so your sorry ass can freeze from no electricity... You likely wouldn't know how to survive without cheap energy anyhow, making decisions as bad as that.

    We should send you to Mars, that way you don't have to deal with anyone else... Maybe that is the best reason we need nuclear rockets.

  3. Re:Simple Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    yeah, 20 billion. nasa budget. thats UGE ! that's about 1/1000 th of the DOD's budget.

  4. Launched from where? by richi · · Score: 1

    So what happens if there's a fault and the RSO hits the self-destruct button?

    1. Re:Launched from where? by Cyberax · · Score: 5, Informative

      Nothing much. Until reactor is started for the first time, it doesn't contain anything that is not found in nature. It's basically more concentrated uranium, so it can be safely disposed of by letting it crash into the sea. And presumably, the reactor is designed in such a way that it won't become critical after immersion into seawater.

      There are interesting developments in this area. For example, Kilopower ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... ) is aimed to replace RTGs since Pu-238 is becoming too scarce. It will produce about 4kW of thermal energy and will be completely passively regulated by natural thermal expansion of components - no moving parts required whatsoever.

    2. Re:Launched from where? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not to dismiss the technology there (tungsten cermet sounds cool -- or perhaps the opposite of that :-) but "nothing that is not found in nature" ain't in itself reassuring.

      After all, asbestos is readily found in nature, too. Paracelsus, dosis and that.

    3. Re:Launched from where? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ricin! Natural! And herbal!

    4. Re:Launched from where? by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      Low enriched uranium means a much larger(heavier) reactor core for the same thrust. So you spend much more to launch it and get much lower cargo capacity.

    5. Re:Launched from where? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You use a chemical rocket to get into space since the thrust-to-weight ratio is about ten times higher. Then, once you're in space, you let the reactor go critical and use your nuclear upper stage as an interplanetary tug. If you do it this way, it actually amounts to an effective weight reduction, and the reactor poses no threat if the rocket were to blow up on the ground.

  5. Re:Sad to see that again the Republicans... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This. Their kind always pushes science and engineering over things that could help people.

  6. Re: Simple Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    $18M will fund about 50 - 100 staff for a year. The technology being evaluated might help advance mankinds capabilities to do further space exploration manned or unmanned. Perhaps pork but this applies to science vs national endowment of arts and various other questionable use of government funding. In fairness to the art crowd , classical musicians and other arts can help entertain mankind vs alcohol and drugs, so NEA not necessarily a waste just a funding priority question since musicians and other artists benefit and they are parts of society too.

  7. Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes ! Yes! Yes!

  8. How can I opt out? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How can I opt out of funding worthless projects like this with my tax dollars while remaining an American citizen? Thanks in advance.

    1. Re: How can I opt out? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop buying from Amazon, then Bezos will have less money to spend on his rockets.

    2. Re:How can I opt out? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Easy. Stop earning. No tax dollars then, and you remain a citizen.

  9. Good return on investment - but not for us by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Those political donations from BWX really paid off!
    Why else is a company that has had nothing to do with rocketry of any kind doing this instead of NASA, the Air Force or a University?
    It's kind of sad because it would be nice to see an atomic rocket instead of vanishing pork money funding a very expensive undergraduate level literature survey.

    1. Re:Good return on investment - but not for us by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      More likely it is about producing large amounts of energy is space to use rather than chucking crap out the back to make you go. Chuck stuff out the back and you might as well be using elastic bands with rocks as fuel, you know how old rockets really are and we are still using that technology, really quite embarrassing. Engines to be used in space might well look nothing like what you are expecting, especially if they are designed to project fields outwards, blades, rather than inwards, cones. Energy is key, so getting powerful nuclear generators into space becomes the goal and how the energy is to used is what is actually on the drawing boards, shhhh ;).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    2. Re:Good return on investment - but not for us by dcw3 · · Score: 2

      Those political donations from BWX really paid off!

      At first, I kinda thought you were trolling, but then there's this:
      https://www.opensecrets.org/pa...

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    3. Re:Good return on investment - but not for us by dbIII · · Score: 1

      That would be nicer but you'd pick someone with a track record if that was the actual goal, and if there's nowhere with a track record private industry is not where you go since that's the expensive way to do it.

  10. Re: Get NASA out of rockets altogether by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's a study into feasibility, not a launch program. Presumably, given Musk's talk of Mars, SpaceX is also doing a study and the can be compared. It's pretty normal to look at multiple options for something so bold, before committing, or taking on faith the first organisation to say they can do it. SpaceX has no track record in deep space (NASA does), so I'd want to see a detailed work up from SpaceX too before signing a contract.

  11. Absolutely! by thesupraman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Look at what a horrific disaster all those exploding reactors have been on navy ships and submarines!
    When will people realize the horror of nuclear reactors! Radiation! Radiation!

    Not to mention the ecological disaster that there would be if evil radiation were to leak in space!
    Do people not realize it is the one truly pristine environment left?

    Every single ONE of the radioactive RTGs that we have sent up on rockets has caused untold deaths! The chemical rockets on the other hand make rainbows brighter and butterflies more colourful!

    The horror..

    1. Re:Absolutely! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's really awesome that you're comparing the same type of reactor, otherwise your "rebuttal" would be disingenuous.

    2. Re:Absolutely! by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      Look at what a horrific disaster all those exploding reactors have been on navy ships and submarines!

      It's the man, not the machine. Rickover is the man. The way Thresher imploded sounded like a pretty gruesome way to go, at least it was quick. I think it was that disaster that drove safety into the certification of the subs for a certain depth.

      Not to mention the ecological disaster that there would be if evil radiation were to leak in space!

      It would be a great use in space. Not so keen on them launching with them. Great that it's LEU, that engine would still be pretty hot coming back, so yeah as long as it stays in space it would be great.

      Does anyone seriously think it's going to happen though?

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    3. Re:Absolutely! by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      The real problem is that there are cheaper ways to travel to the places we'll want to travel to in the next few decades at least.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    4. Re:Absolutely! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Poe's Law clarification requested...

    5. Re:Absolutely! by arth1 · · Score: 2

      Look at what a horrific disaster all those exploding reactors have been on navy ships and submarines!
      When will people realize the horror of nuclear reactors! Radiation! Radiation!

      Remove the sensationalist word "exploding", and yes. Sunken nuclear subs are a problem. Kursk, K-159 and Komsomolets are of concern to the Norwegians, and radioactive leaks are either already registered or are predicted to occur within a few years.

    6. Re:Absolutely! by arth1 · · Score: 1

      It would be a great use in space. Not so keen on them launching with them.

      One word: Bluegill

    7. Re:Absolutely! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Look at what a horrific disaster all those exploding reactors have been on navy ships and submarines!

      Look at how much crew you have to dedicate to a reactor, and how inefficient it has to be, before it can be reliable.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:Absolutely! by skullandbones99 · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the ecological disaster that there would be if evil radiation were to leak in space!
      Do people not realize it is the one truly pristine environment left?

      I can see that you are no scientist because your facts are wrong. Radiation is a natural phenomenon in the environment on Earth and in Space. We need to avoid being exposed to too much radiation because that can kill.

      Space can have high levels of radiation depending on how close you get to the source. The main source of radiation in the solar system is the Sun and you would die without the radiation from the Sun. The Earth's magnetic field and atmosphere help to prevent damaging radiation from hitting the Earth's surface. The Earth remains hot at the core partly due to radioactive decay generating heat.

      Each banana you eat is radioactive due to Potassium naturally decaying. We are naturally radioactive but at a low rate.

      As well as radiation via photons (light), there are Alpha particles (Helium nuclei), Beta particles (Electrons) and Gamma waves (High energy electromagnetic radiation) plus other sub-atomic particles. The amount of damage you get depends on the exposure level, duration of exposure and type of radiation.

      The 2 small nuclear bombs dropped on Japan at the end of WWII were air-bust explosions so the radioactive fallout was minimal and that is why people can live in these areas in Japan today. It was the release of a large amount of energy in a short period of time that caused people to die. It was not the radioactive decay radiation that killed people.

      If you look at the Chernobyl and Fukushima disasters. Radioactive material got into the environment. Some workers died because they had to work close to the source of the radioactive radiation. However, outside the exclusion zones the impact will be small on people's health. The radioactive material decays over time and the decay rate is know as "half-life". In Chernobyl, there are now tourists because the level of radiation has dropped to safe levels.

    9. Re:Absolutely! by fnj · · Score: 1

      Whoosh.

    10. Re:Absolutely! by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      It would be a great use in space. Not so keen on them launching with them.

      One word: Bluegill

      Thanks, I forgot all about EMP.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    11. Re:Absolutely! by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      I don't know where you get your "radioactive leaks" meme from.

      Monitoring of those wrecks and of the three dumped reactors from the Lenin (nuclear icebreaker) have shown that radioactivity is barely detectable 50cm from the reactors and totally undetectable from 2 metres away

      The Lenin reactors in particular have been subjected to intense scrutiny over the years because they lie very close to Norwegian territorial waters and they were/are rightfully worried about them.

      So far the concensus is "leave them where they are, it's safer than trying to lift them"

    12. Re:Absolutely! by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      Sadly out of points or I'd mod you up! Someone else on /. with science experience/knowledge!

  12. Send that whiny James Damore faggot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To the fucking moon. No females there to whine about, bitch kid.

  13. Re:Simple Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm replying as AC because I modded-up this and I think questions like this should be answered from time to time, even though I disagree with the apparent sentiments.

    Firstly, "paying down the national debt" isn't necessarily as useful as one might think. Certainly, avoiding indebtedness to foreign powers may be of strategic importance, and rapid expansion of national debt for big spending programs might stoke high inflation that drives economic instability. However, most of the national debt (along with most money in the economy) is funded with money that has been created from thin-air by private-sector banks, and perhaps laundered through the economy to look more real than it is. Paying-off the original debts that created the money causes it to disappear with the debt but it provides profit in the form of interest for the banks that created the money in the first place. Very little actually goes to cover capital and interest for the deposits of any real investors, and even those originated mostly in debt to generate new assets that have been laundered and liquidated into cash for deposit. This is the world of fractional reserve banking, where almost all money in the system is born out of debt and inflation.

    Now to the main point about why do this instead of "more worthwhile things we could be doing, such as curing cancer, solving world hunger, or reducing our impacts on climate change". Of course those are important and, quite rightly a good deal more money –many billions of dollars– already goes into those things than the 19 million dollars going into this project.

    But blue-sky technology and pure science reap huge benefits in the long term and that simply can't be foreseen. Copernicus, Galileo, Tycho Brahe, Kepler and Newton were concerned with the motions of planetary bodies and the moon. They paved the way for the foundations of the science of mechanics which is one of the pillars of all of modern engineering and science. Franklin, Faraday and many others tinkered with electricity and magnetism, and Maxwell synthesised a theory from their experiments which gave another of pillar foundations of everything we have now. Even the highly abstract theories of Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, formulated a century ago, now have a big impact on our everyday lives.

    Everything I've described (albeit in a very brief and shallow manner) is the basis for things like MRI, CT and PET scanners, computational drug discovery, understanding climate change, GNSS/GPS and countless other technologies that have the power to benefit everyone. There are bigger political decisions to be made that will have more impact than anything gained by switching funding from atomic rockets to feeding the starving. Consider the cost of building a 2000-mile wall. And if you want another perspective, consider that, in the US alone, about $200 billion is spent each year on advertising.

    Personally I have no desire to move to Mars; it's way more hostile than America would have been for early settlers, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't invest a relatively small amount. One can't imagine the long-term benefits that humanity might eventually reap from the effort.

    I haven't bothered with references but if you're curious and if you really care you can easily find plenty to read about any of this.

  14. Re:Waste of Money by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    "Instead of going to Mars, let's use our resources to do things that actually benefit people, such as stopping global warming. "

    Mars is rather cool and could benefit from a bit of global warming.

  15. Re:Simple Question by nospam007 · · Score: 0

    "How does sending a few people to Mars affect anyone's life in a meaningful way?"

    Mmmh, depends on who you send. I'd think that sending some orange 'astronaut' to Mars would benefit billions of people on earth.

  16. Children of a Dead Earth, anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nuclear thermal rockets for maximum delta-v! (it also sounds like the subcultural term for cuckold porn from the far east!)

  17. Re:Get NASA out of rockets altogether by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

    Even SpaceX admits that for more distant missions (far outer planet destinations, oort cloud, etc), scaling chemical rockets is not sufficient. Nuclear rockets are also interesting for Venus, delivering crew and payload between the habitable layer (~54km) where breathable air is a lifting gas that can loft a colony, and orbit. Some of Venus's great advantages, like having nearly Earthlike gravity and thus no concerns about wasting like exist for the moon and (to a lesser extent) Mars, are also disadvantages, in that it's also nearly Earthlike difficulty to get to orbit. Furthermore, unlike Mars where your rocket rests on the ground, with Venus you have to support its fully fueled mass. While it's possible to get out with two-stage chemical rockets and re-dock the returning stages, you get much better mass fractions with nuclear. Even though nuclear pretty much only works with hydrogen propellant (the ISP drops in linear proportion to the atomic mass of the propellant), and hydrogen is not particularly common on Venus, the low propellant requirements mean that a nuclear rocket can use less hydrogen than most low-hydrogen rocket propellants that could be used were the ascent vehicle a two-stage chemical rocket.

    I'm sure lots of people are going to be discussing NERVA in this comments section. It's important to realize that NERVA is obsolete technology, and there are much better designs available at present. NERVA's biggest problem was its awful thrust to weight ratio. One of the first realizations since then was that you can make a nuclear rocket with a LOX "afterburner"; at liftoff, you use LOX to vastly augment the thrust (the resulting ISP, while nothing like pure hydrogen nuclear-thermal, is still well above that of normal hydrolox). Once the high liftoff thrust requirements are no longer needed, the rocket transitions to pure hydrogen thrust for much higher specific impulse.

    A variety of airbreathing modes have also been investigated which can strongly increase thrust and/or specific impulse further - thrust augmentation, nuclear scramjets, nuclear-driven turbojets, etc. Also, there have been general improvements in nuclear technology to allow for transferring higher energies to the hydrogen steam since then, as well as a number of yet-to-be-proven concepts. For example a fission fragment reactor can theoretically get the hydrogen much hotter than the reactor itself; in such a system, the goal is to (as much as possible) capture only neutrons in the fuel and only thermalize fission fragments (which carry most of the energy) in the hydrogen. But you definitely wouldn't pursue a fission fragment reactor with LEU....

    --
    He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
  18. writer needs more science, less poetry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "When the first manned mission to Mars sets out, it may be on the tail of an atomic rocket engine."

    uhh, that's just silly, unless you really want to kill all biologics.

    not the tail. try: it may be on the nose of an atomic rocket engine. FTFY

  19. Re:Pu tang by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    Tu pang, what?

    I believe that's Klingon. Damned trekkies...

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  20. Re: Get NASA out of rockets altogether by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 5, Informative

    For high-mass, Hohmann-transfer spacecrafts bound to Mars, nuclear really isn't the best propulsion option even in the long run. It's basic physics. At the low delta-Vs required for the flight, the mass ratios and volumes required are disadvantageous for nuclear, as is mined mass usage from all hydrogen sources with the exception of perhaps mining hydrogen directly from Saturn or one of the other smaller gas giants.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  21. Re: Simple Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

    I'm replying as AC because I modded-up this and I think questions like this should be answered from time to time, even though I disagree with the apparent sentiments

    I don't mod things like this down because such questions shouldn't be asked, but because frequently it gets asked ten times for a story with not even two dozen threads. When something gets posted over and over again because it riles people up, that is trolling and not honest discussion.

  22. Everything could possibly go wrong? by stooo · · Score: 1

    Exactly.
    What could go wrong ?
    Rockets have, at best, 98% reliability (Using old and proven tech, new one is muuch wooorse.).
    that means that 2% of the time, they explode and get dispersed in the atmosphere, low or high, soon or late.
    So it's a very very very very very very bad idea to send fissile material to orbit and then to escape velocities.
    (the small quantities of the mars rovers and similar RTG powered probes are only comparable to a very weak Hiroshima in mass)

    --
    aaaaaaa
    1. Re:Everything could possibly go wrong? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      What could go wrong ?
      Rockets have, at best, 98% reliability (Using old and proven tech, new one is muuch wooorse.).
      that means that 2% of the time, they explode and get dispersed in the atmosphere, low or high, soon or late.
      So it's a very very very very very very bad idea to send fissile material to orbit and then to escape velocities.

      This has already happened, on more than one occasion. Yet we're still here:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    2. Re:Everything could possibly go wrong? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      You know the US alone has fired off about 10,000 Hiroshima equivalents worth of nuclear bombs in testing right?

    3. Re:Everything could possibly go wrong? by stooo · · Score: 1

      Yep. 90% underground
      And yet, the remaining 10% tests badly contaminated the earth.

      Now this rocket disintegrating would be much worse.

      --
      aaaaaaa
    4. Re:Everything could possibly go wrong? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      I couldn't find any totals broken down by type of test, and I don't really want to add them all up, but about 20% of US shots were atmospheric, and it looks like most of the multi-megaton bombs were atmospheric. Quite a bit more than your 10%.

      "Badly contaminated" seems similarly hyperbolic. The tests were detectable, and you didn't want to be downwind of them for sure, but except in those limited areas they don't seem to have been too catastrophic. I'm not sure why you'd say a rocket disintegrating would be worse. The most likely scenario would have a completely or mostly intact reactor falling into the ocean. The container would eventually corrode, but unenriched uranium isn't anywhere near as dangerous as the products from a working reactor or fallout from a bomb. The US military likes to shoot orders of magnitude more depleted uranium around battlefields. Also, the US SAC used to have a policy of keeping many times more weapons grade uranium and plutonium continuously airborne.

      It's probably not a good idea to build a large industry that involves launching tens of thousands of reactors, but a limited number with appropriate controls wouldn't be catastrophic, particularly dangerous or even unprecedented.

  23. WHAM! by JohnPerkins · · Score: 1

    WHAM! WHAM! WHAM! WHAM!
    . /Why not vacation in beautiful Bellingham, Washington?

    1. Re:WHAM! by rickyslashdot · · Score: 1

      WOW! You must be as old as I am to remember the old 'bang-bang' propulsion system of the REAL ORION spacecraft -lol-

      --
      redneck geek
    2. Re:WHAM! by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Or a 1985 Niven/Pournelle science fiction novel.

    3. Re:WHAM! by JohnPerkins · · Score: 1

      $0.10 book sale at the local library.

    4. Re:WHAM! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The BBC had a great documentary on this (back when they still made great documentaries) called "TO MARS BY A BOMB"

      Interviews with people involved, including Freeman Dyson.

      It'll be on YouTube somewhere - or preferably one of the less censored video sites.

    5. Re:WHAM! by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      WHAM! WHAM! WHAM! WHAM!
      . /Why not vacation in beautiful Bellingham, Washington?

      While it's still there.

  24. Re:Get NASA out of rockets altogether by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    Airbreathing modes? In open space nuclear designs could be the kings of specific impulse, but getting to LEO with one is going to be a lot more difficult, especially politically.

  25. Re:Pu tang by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have fun with your hand.

  26. Project Orion Is feasable by avandesande · · Score: 1

    Just takes a lot of people with BIG BRASS BALLS!

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
  27. NASA Looks At Reviving Atomic Rocket Program by rickyslashdot · · Score: 1

    FINALLY !
    It's been about 50 years that the NERVA program has been on hold - mostly because of the atmospheric nuclear test ban treaties of the time, and also the space nuclear bans related to those test bans.

    Check out these 2 sites / articles for some history of a WORKING nuclear powered rocket engine - - -
    NERVA testing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
    and - http://www.daviddarling.info/e...

    I was in high school, and missed out on actually seeing one of the tests at Jackass Flats in early 1967 because I was underage and couldn't get the security clearance needed - really sucked.

    --
    redneck geek
  28. Re:Get NASA out of rockets altogether by Kjella · · Score: 2

    Even SpaceX admits that for more distant missions (far outer planet destinations, oort cloud, etc), scaling chemical rockets is not sufficient.

    Well, on the Falcon Heavy page they list payload to Pluto and escape velocity is only 0.39 km/s (0.03+0.02+0.11+0.20+0.03) more delta-v than that so anything inside the Sun's gravity well like the far outer planets is quite reachable by chemical. If you do ITS-style fueling in orbit or slingshot around Jupiter probably with a decent size payload too. The Oort cloud is a lot further out though, Voyager is at 139 AU and the lowest estimate for where it might begin is 2000 AU so like 500+ years even with all the gravity slingshots Voyager got. Since you won't get the same slingshot again until 2151 and the chemical propulsion is only a small part of Voyager's total speed I think you're looking at centuries even with a massive efficiency boost through fission.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  29. Re: Simple Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or we could launch the failed presidential candidate, that would save a fair number of people from inexplicably commuting suicide by shooting themselves and then disposing of the weapon.

  30. Re:Get NASA out of rockets altogether by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    Even better, you shouldn't need to lift the fuel from Earth's gravity well.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  31. Create the nuclear fuel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    in space. Irradiate U-239 and convert some of it into Plutonium. As long as you aren't launching large amount radioactive material everything should be safe.

  32. Re: Get NASA out of rockets altogether by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought the point of nuclear high delta-v rockets is that you didn't need to use slow hohmann transfer orbits but could get there faster.

  33. Re:Waste of Money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's keep burning them anyway. You can never burn enough liberals!

  34. Re:Pu tang by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's "poon tang" you moron. Good luck with that virginity thing, you'll need it.

  35. Re:Waste of Money by currently_awake · · Score: 1

    If Humans were logical creatures we'd stop funding all military, form a planetary government, and stop all talk of Martian colonization since that's not required and diverts resources from social programs and science.

  36. Spent fuel rods recycling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Can the engines run on reprocessed spent fuel rods from nuclear reactors?

  37. Politically possible? by joe_frisch · · Score: 1

    Nuclear thermal is a nice technology for some missions (but probably not Mars where the delta-V isn't all that high). The problem is that I don't see it as political realistic. There are political issues with radioisotope generators on deep space probes - for example the proposed Europa lander will have a very limited lifetime because it will only have chemical batteries.

    I think a NTR could be launched safely if it hasn't been turned on yet, but I also think that there is not a snowballs chance in hell of it being politically acceptable.

    Its also not all that useful. You can do Mars and Venus without nuclear propulsion. The outer planets are probably better served with electrical propulsion since the travel time is so long that multi-year acceleration isn't out of the question. As long as that acceleration is not too far from the sun, solar will work.

    I'm personally a big fan of developing space nuclear technology, I just don't think its likely to happen.

    1. Re:Politically possible? by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      If only people would stop giving money to scientifically ignorant, no that's not fair... scientifically combative organizations like Green Peace, we could move forward. Green Peace and Sierra Club combat things like this because they want more money and they keep frightening people into thinking they're bad. Anything is bad if it's not used right. Just like the Japs with their power plants. Not just one, Three nuke plants in an area known for being flooded and the dimwits put the generators in the basement? Shows the Japs can be as stupid as anyone else.

      When GW Bush was in office they renewed the nuke plant that is near me. I think it was one fo the first. Something they didn't think would happen. It would be nice if we could dispel the bullshit out there. However we'd need to totally replace our news reporters. Replace them with people with a clue and not just parrots of Media Matters.

  38. Re: Get NASA out of rockets altogether by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

    However, they work much better for non-Hohmann transfer orbits. Or non-lowest dV Hohmann transfer orbits. There are advantages to getting to Mars more quickly. Keeping the crew alive being one of them.

  39. Re:Get NASA out of rockets altogether by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

    Sure you can put a lump of metal anywhere in the solar system with chemical rockets. When you've got people riding along how long it takes tends to become more of a concern.

  40. University research reactor... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    When I took Intro Chemistry at San Jose State University (before they kicked me out for playing too much Magic: The Gathering into the wee hours), we had a tour of the research reactor in the basement of the science building. We were reassured that the reactor was completely safe. If it ever did go kablooey (extremely unlikely), it would only blow up the building. Rest assured that I went into computers instead of nuclear science.

    1. Re:University research reactor... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Rest assured that I went into computers instead of nuclear science."

      creimer, the WHOLE WORLD rests assured that you're not anywhere near a nuclear reactor!

      Imagine the scene, the reactor's cooling system is failing, and your malfunctioning miracle-working brain decides it's time to clean the storage closet instead!

    2. Re:University research reactor... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      Imagine the scene, the reactor's cooling system is failing, and your malfunctioning miracle-working brain decides it's time to clean the storage closet instead!

      Chain Reaction was one of my favorite Keanu Reeves movie.

    3. Re:University research reactor... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  41. Re:Simple Question by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

    "Paying-off the original debts that created the money causes it to disappear with the debt but it provides profit in the form of interest for the banks that created the money in the first place."

    If you could direct me to this bank that only makes money in interest if you pay off a loan, I would be most appreciative.

  42. Re: Get NASA out of rockets altogether by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

    True, but even slight increases (1-2 km/s in case of Mars) cut off most of the time; afterwards, there's only diminishing returns. And we can do extra 1-2 km/s chemically just fine. Not to mention that arrival speed increases much more sharply than departure speed (and you don't want to crash into Mars at 20 km/s). However, in case of nuclear thermal propulsion, the use of asteroid-mined propellant only breaks against chemical propulsion after reaching like 10-12 km/s (that's from LEO, so about 18-20 km/s of Earth departure speed, about 47-49 km/s of heliocentric speed after leaving Earth's sphere of influence, and about 35-37 km/s in infinity). So unless you're going for the Oort cloud, it doesn't seem worth it. It's marginally better if you're lifting pure hydrogen from Earth's gravity well, but that's as unsustainable as lifting any bulk material from Earth, and the payload volume issues are still there (remember, it's only 70 kg per cubic meter for liquid hydrogen).

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  43. Re: Get NASA out of rockets altogether by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    See my comment above.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  44. Re: Get NASA out of rockets altogether by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    Should have read "only breaks even..."

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  45. Re:Waste of Money by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If Humans were logical creatures we'd stop funding all military, form a planetary government, and stop all talk of Martian colonization since that's not required and diverts resources from social programs and science.

    That makes sense if you look no farther than your navel, and plan for no later than next week. But on a long enough time scale, a rock is going to come along and wipe out our species, and we also develop ancillary technologies while figuring out how to explore space which pay dividends right here on Earth. Unfortunately, much of our leadership is just as short-sighted as you are.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  46. I have NTP on my computers! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Should I be scared?

    I appear to have a Nuclear Thermal Propulsion daemon running on my computers, called ntpd.

    Am I unbeknownst to me somehow part of a large beta program? Is my laptop suddenly going to start accelerating toward Mars? Should I hide in my underground bunker?

  47. Re: Get NASA out of rockets altogether by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

    The one I replied to? Saw it, thanks.

  48. Re:Waste of Money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If humans were logical creatures, you wouldn't need funding for military. Nor would you need social programs.

    You might not even need a planetary government. Or any government.

    And not to be overly pedantic, but "Martian colonization" comes under the heading of "science".

  49. Thorium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Why is thorium never consider. It is a safer fuel, liquid in reactor use, easy to contain when things go bad, being a liquid you can drain it off into several containment vessels and the waste product much easier to contain as most of it is lead.

    Why? Same reason we use uranium; can't make a bomb. Almost all thorium byproducts are at the end of the fission scale, but Thorium is fairly easy to find in nature; easier than uranium.

    Hell the lead might make good ejection mass for a ship in flight. Solar wind would in time drive it out of the system, just don't point your exhaust at a planet. That would be rude.

    So the truth. uranium mining has stopped in the USA since the second Russian revolution. We have been processing their nuclear bombs in our reactors; we paid well for the privilege but we've used up all they are willing to part with. We are out of fuel. This was all discussed two years ago in Wall Street Journal. Yes I am well read.

    Somebody, like in the old days, NASA, needs to get the ball rolling again. This time not for weapons. We have all those old nuclear power plants without fuel rods. We can't ship them to France (they have a nice breeder reactor), hell you can hardly ship them at all as people scream 'not in my backyard!' I want the power, not the clean up. I can't understand what the issue is. We have aircraft carriers with two to six reactors on board. What is the issue with them transporting fuel rod? Not safe enough?

    So what is likely to happen (mining->refinement->new weapons=more job), (old weapons->conversion industry->power plants=more money) NASA pays for pie in the sky. Same thing that created the ICBM; we called it the Apollo missions which ended when the last of the ICBM programs were done. Congress is hiding their under the table support for the the nuclear power industry via NASA and pie in the sky. So is China by the way.

    All right I admit the technical expertise to make nuclear weapons is going away and creating and maintain reactors is too. With idiot nations (Iran,N Korea, India, Pakistan) all working on bombs we should still have the ability. Just don't hid it under NASA's skirt.

    1. Re:Thorium by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

      Tell Kirk Sorensen to take back his paycheck
      232-U neutron absorption ensures no 233-U reactor will ever be self-sustaining supercritical.
      Failed tech won't get us to Mars or anywhere else.

  50. Closely watching the speech and behavior of the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pyongyang, August 10 (KCNA) -- General Kim Rak Gyom, commander of the Strategic Force of the Korean People's Army, released the following statement on August 9:

    As already clarified, the Strategic Force of the KPA is seriously examining the plan for an enveloping strike at Guam through simultaneous fire of four Hwasong-12 intermediate-range strategic ballistic rockets in order to interdict the enemy forces on major military bases on Guam and to signal a crucial warning to the U.S.

    On Tuesday, the KPA Strategic Force through a statement of its spokesman fully warned the U.S. against its all-round sanctions on the DPRK and moves of maximizing military threats to it. But the U.S. president at a golf links again let out a load of nonsense about "fire and fury," failing to grasp the on-going grave situation. This is extremely getting on the nerves of the infuriated Hwasong artillerymen of the KPA.

    It seems that he has not yet understood the statement.

    Sound dialogue is not possible with such a guy bereft of reason and only absolute force can work on him. This is the judgment made by the service personnel of the KPA Strategic Force.

    The military action the KPA is about to take will be an effective remedy for restraining the frantic moves of the U.S. in the southern part of the Korean peninsula and its vicinity.

    The Hwasong artillerymen of the KPA Strategic Force are replete with a strong determination to fully demonstrate once again the invincible might of the force, which has developed into a reliable nuclear force of the Workers' Party of Korea and the world's strongest strike service, through the planned enveloping strike targeting the U.S. imperialist bases of aggression.

    The Strategic Force is also considering the plan for opening to public the historic enveloping fire at Guam, a practical action targeting the U.S. bases of aggression.

    This unprecedented step is to give stronger confidence in certain victory and courage to the Korean people and help them witness the wretched plight of the U.S. imperialists.

    The Hwasong-12 rockets to be launched by the KPA will cross the sky above Shimane, Hiroshima and Kochi Prefectures of Japan. They will fly 3 356.7 km for 1 065 seconds and hit the waters 30 to 40 km away from Guam.

    The KPA Strategic Force will finally complete the plan until mid August and report it to the commander-in-chief of the DPRK nuclear force and wait for his order.

    We keep closely watching the speech and behavior of the U.S. -0-

  51. Seems to me intuitively by Sqreater · · Score: 1

    It seems that less enriched fuel would require a larger, heavier engine. They may actually build one, but up front after thinking it out, or eventually after seeing the practical problems, they will discard the LEU engine concept.

    --
    E Proelio Veritas.
  52. Economics of chemical flight still limit by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

    as in, how many million tons of chemical fuel to boost the reaction mass (water) into low orbit?
    Nuclear engines do not have higher specific impulse than LH2-LOx and thus, the reaction mass will be GREATER and require a larger chemical rocket to hit LEO.
    Thus a nuclear engine will have to be a low delta-v ion/magnetic drive.
    So, reaction mass will go up separately, on Chemical rockets and will be even MORE expensive.

  53. $18.8 million by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

    Is less than what it cost to refuel a shuttle SRB

  54. I was only just reading about this today... by ShamblerBishop · · Score: 2

    There are existing reactors in the hundred-kilowatt range and potential for development of megawatt range reactors, which are feasible for space - spent about 3 hours today just reading up on VASIMR and MPD engines, which - when combined with modern designs for nuclear reactors - will open up speedy access to the entire solar system, and far beyond. Check this list of reactors - old, new and potential - and the energy outputs we've already achieved: http://www.world-nuclear.org/i... The future of space exploration, is through nuclear reactors and advanced ion engines. This could have been done decades ago - the technology is more than ripe enough, to actually go ahead and do this - now.

  55. Re:Good, save the enriched uranium for other uses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did you use HTML to embolden the "i" in the "n" word? Really??! Lol... Doesn't slashdot allow that word anymore? To be honest, the fact that I won't try to post it to find out should tell you that the left is totalitarian, authoritarian, and quite fucking scary, to be honest. I don't want these people in charge of my police force; it's dangerous. What about my raster (sic) friends exclaiming and bantering with each other and everyone else? Can they use that word? Will we censor music lyrics originally created years ago to increase empathy with black people and their historical plight because they include "trigger" words? I foresee a bleak future for humanity.

  56. Re:Good, save the enriched uranium for other uses by webmistressrachel · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Go watch the Boondocks, most black people know all about the lunacy of the left and the contradiction between modern money-making black "pop culture", and Martin Luther King's noble and righteous motives and goals.

    MLK envisioned a future where people would be judged by the quality of their character, rather than the colour of the skin. A "colour-blind society" where people would succeed based on hard work, honesty and justice for all. He never said anything about silencing people who were white from speaking the truth, he just wanted black people who were at the time segregated, sent to the back of the bus and many other social restrictions to be treated the same as everyone else!

    MLK will be spinning in his grave right now, worrying his little heart out about where BLM and BAMN could lead black people in the future, namely civil war or an SJW cult regime, under which many (mainly white people) will suffer; all in his name and on the back of his achievements; the complete antithesis of his goals.

    --
    This tagline was transcoded to result in at least one smirk. If you experience failure to smirk, please consult your Gen
  57. Re:Get NASA out of rockets altogether by Rei · · Score: 1

    NERVA was designed for operation in the atmosphere (it doesn't exhaust radioactive material). Also, Earth is not the only body in the solar system with an atmosphere.

    --
    He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.
  58. Re: Get NASA out of rockets altogether by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm pretty sure that nuclear engines using almost any gas work ok. Hydrogen is simply the lightest.

  59. Re:Get NASA out of rockets altogether by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    Certainly, but 'airbreathing' implies an oxygen-rich atmosphere. There is only one of those in the solar system.

  60. Re: Get NASA out of rockets altogether by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's why we invented fidget spinners.

  61. Re: Simple Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I commuted suicide once, but it was the wrong train.

  62. Re: Get NASA out of rockets altogether by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    It's true, but the benefits are questionable then. Hell, they're somewhat questionable even with hydrogen, since solar thermal propulsion has slightly higher Isp because of the heat exchanger being inert. But maybe a nuclear rocket would be good for jumping around Mars, using CO2 as a working fluid.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  63. Re: Get NASA out of rockets altogether by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    No, the one you didn't reply to.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  64. International Rescue! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Captain Scarlet! You are needed urgently!

  65. But, but... NASA has the EM drive! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NASA needs to change their focus. They could do a lot of good by managing the land for space launch and perhaps working to provide things like indestructable launch pads - something like massive volcano shaped reinforced concrete structures. That could greatly speed forward progress. Then they need to stand aside and cheer as new companies not afraid to crack an egg now and then return us to the progress rates of the 50s and 60s.

  66. Payback for Donations? by dcw3 · · Score: 1
    --
    Just another day in Paradise
  67. Re:Waste of Money by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

    It's logical that we have divergent interests and therefore benefit from having more than one government, also as fallback when one fails.

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    This space intentionally left blank
  68. Re:Get NASA out of rockets altogether by Rei · · Score: 2

    Airbreathing does not in any way, shape or form imply an oxygen-rich atmosphere. The most important aspect of air to a nuclear rocket is not oxygen, it's simply reaction mass.

    --
    He's really very... gentle... and fuzzy. We're becoming fast friends.