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Unpatchable 'Flaw' Affects Most of Today's Modern Cars (bleepingcomputer.com)

Catalin Cimpanu, writing for BleepingComputer: A flaw buried deep in the hearts of all modern cars allows an attacker with local or even remote access to a vehicle to shut down various components, including safety systems such as airbags, brakes, parking sensors, and others. The vulnerability affects the CAN (Controller Area Network) protocol that's deployed in modern cars and used to manage communications between a vehicle's internal components. The flaw was discovered by a collaborative effort of Politecnico di Milano, Linklayer Labs, and Trend Micro's Forward-looking Threat Research (FTR) team. Researchers say this flaw is not a vulnerability in the classic meaning of the word. This is because the flaw is more of a CAN standard design choice that makes it unpatchable.

226 comments

  1. All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Almost all of the older machine control style buses have this exact flaw. NONE of them authenticate. All of them can be MITM very easily. Most IoT systems out there are predicated on the fact that they can do this.

    You think it is bad? No, its worse than that. I try not to think about it much.

    1. Re:All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope nobody uses it to send the self destruct detonation sequence to my car.

    2. Re:All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's the code for that...
      "Destruct sequence 1, code 1-1 A."
      "Destruct sequence 2, code 1-1 A-2B."
      "Destruct sequence 3, code 1 B-2B-3."
      "Code zero zero zero. Destruct. Zero."

    3. Re: All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ITS all bullshit. Exploit either needs another exploit or à device in the obd connector.

      Plus you have multiple can buses in à modern Car.

    4. Re:All of these have this flaw by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Almost all of the older machine control style buses have this exact flaw. NONE of them authenticate. All of them can be MITM very easily. Most IoT systems out there are predicated on the fact that they can do this.

      You think it is bad? No, its worse than that. I try not to think about it much.

      Doesn't bother me at all. With or without this flaw, people can sabotage your car. In this case, they have to have the technology, knowhow, access and motive to exploit the flaw. Why would they take the difficult path when there are much easier ways to F with your car?

    5. Re:All of these have this flaw by TWX · · Score: 3, Informative

      Most IoT systems out there are predicated on the fact that they can do this.

      That's only one flaw in IoT. There are many others especially when consumer and commercial products connect to the vendor's central management instead of to the customer's central management. Those flaws include having to have an untrusted device on one's network that has to be able to communicate with the Internet, having software that might not be readily patched yet may be running on a consumer-grade OS, and any vulnerabilities affecting the vendor's central management.

      Daktronics, I'm looking at you.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    6. Re:All of these have this flaw by TWX · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Except that as infotainment systems get more complex and more heavily integrated with the vehicle's CANBUS system and with the Internet via cellular networks, suddenly the possibility that someone can sabotage your car without having ever come within a thousand miles of you becomes a real prospect. Now add drive-by-wire where the vehicle controls are just inputs and the computer more directly controls acceleration, braking, and even steering, and you've got a recipe for a disaster if someone figures out how to exploit all models of a manufacturer with the same flaw. Imagine if all Honda Accords with lane-departure and adaptive cruise control suddenly accelerate at full-speed for five seconds then suddenly turn fifteen degrees to the left. If an attack like that was successful it would probably hurt or kill thousands of people.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    7. Re: All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because ransom ware of your car is going to suck.

    8. Re:All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This exploit may require local access, but the more constant connectivity there is in cars, the higher the risk of remote exploits. Then, instead of one person fucking with one other person's car locally at 3am, one person can fuck with 60 million people's cars from across the world.

      Centralization is something both companies and consumers are in love with, but it brings major risk factors.

    9. Re:All of these have this flaw by amorsen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Because all they need to do is send a malicious RDS message through the FM network to a vulnerable car radio. Many radios are on the CANBUS these days, and it is highly unlikely that the developers of the radio software care about security or that secure channels for expedient software updates were designed in.

      However, there are much more exciting things that you can do once you're on the CANBUS, instead of just shutting down ABS.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    10. Re:All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's the code for that...
      "Destruct sequence 1, code 1-1 A."
      "Destruct sequence 2, code 1-1 A-2B."
      "Destruct sequence 3, code 1 B-2B-3."
      "Code zero zero zero. Destruct. Zero."

      0-0-0-Destruct-1 would have been more thorough as it detonates the warp core....errr fuel tank....

    11. Re:All of these have this flaw by mean+pun · · Score: 1

      Because all they need to do is send a malicious RDS message through the FM network to a vulnerable car radio. Many radios are on the CANBUS these days, and it is highly unlikely that the developers of the radio software care about security or that secure channels for expedient software updates were designed in.

      Given that the RDS protocol is really simple, I really doubt you can p0wn a car radio through RDS. Fixed message sizes and few undefined bits make it almost trivial to implement robust parsers for the protocol. You'll have to find another weakness, I think.

    12. Re:All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RDS may be a simple-enough protocol to write a robust parser for, but the layers on top of it can include HTML, JPEG, etc.

      My big concern is that it would be possible to send invalid HTML or images that could crash a parser and facilitate p0wnage.

      dom

    13. Re:All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Easily fixable. Infotainment and other fluff on one canbus - vehicle control on another canbus. No ip-capable things on the 'important' bus.

      A better bus protocol doesn't really help - a malfunctioning (or compromised) device may break protocol and do things like short the bus.

    14. Re:All of these have this flaw by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      The article is about 'today's modern cars". I wasn't talking about the ifs of the future, you are into fully autonomous driving which is a totally different discussion. There are already standards in place on how to deal with mission and safety critical controls. Its not that hard.

    15. Re:All of these have this flaw by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Because all they need to do is send a malicious RDS message through the FM network to a vulnerable car radio. Many radios are on the CANBUS these days, and it is highly unlikely that the developers of the radio software care about security or that secure channels for expedient software updates were designed in.

      However, there are much more exciting things that you can do once you're on the CANBUS, instead of just shutting down ABS.

      But, to my point, if its so easy why isn't it happening in the real world?

    16. Re:All of these have this flaw by Carewolf · · Score: 2

      But it requires LOCAL access. They could remotely disable the brakes after first installing a remote controlled device into the car. For christ sake, they could do that anyway, if they have local access and can install things in the car, they could just disable the brakes....

    17. Re:All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TFA is wrong in stating that there is nothing that can be done about it though.

      There is no reason for the radio to be on the CAN-bus so just disconnect it. Or at least put it on a different CAN-bus than the important stuff.
      Heck, if you want to put all the infotainment stuff on CAN, do so, but separate that bus from the rest with a firewall.
      Then again, it would probably be better to put all that unnecessary stuff on an ethernet bus.

    18. Re:All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If anybody accidentally engages the self destruct, it can be cancelled with code 1-2-3-continuity.

    19. Re: All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not true about ODB. Just accessing the CAN hi and lo wires (which in my BMW are the orange and green wires if I remember correctly, I tapped into them near the transmission tunnel when adding power seats to my car aonthe seat memory function would work)). Which incidently run all over the car. (I wouldn't be surprised if there's somewhere I could get to then without actually entering the car itself)

    20. Re:All of these have this flaw by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      Almost all of the older machine control style buses have this exact flaw. NONE of them authenticate. All of them can be MITM very easily. Most IoT systems out there are predicated on the fact that they can do this.

      You think it is bad? No, its worse than that. I try not to think about it much.

      Personally I prefer this to adding unnecessary complexity and the real prospect of vendors wielding it to lock people out of performing their own repairs or modifications.

      All manufacturers have to do is cut the transmit line from their lame cellular stalker radios and "infotainment" garbage... of course even that's too hard for these idiots.

    21. Re: All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The RDS bandwith is so low that I have a hard time believing they support html or images.

    22. Re: All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are right, few radio/infotainment manufacturers care about implementing any security except for what is explicitly required in customer specs (I worked with many suppliers in my career, and that world tends to favor the cheapest products that still allow some margins), and that's why all vehicle manufacturers use a different CAN bus for vehicle controls and multimedia components. Usually, some sort of bridge or gateway is installed between them, so that only messages without risk can jump between buses. I'd be more concerned with the rest of the car if the manufacturer is so cheap that it won't spring the 50 cents for a CAN gateway.

    23. Re: All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you can ransomeware my '76 LTD, you can HAVE the fucking thing hahahahaha

    24. Re:All of these have this flaw by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      AKA why I have no IoT devices, despite the fact that they'd be very useful. Sell me a device, and charge me separately for the software if you must, but I'm not letting anything on my network that leaks information without my permission.

    25. Re:All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because all they need to do is send a malicious RDS message through the FM network to a vulnerable car radio.

      Please explain. RDS has fixed message sizes, so you can't be talking about a buffer overflow here. It also lacks any scripting capability, so you don't have a vulnerable VM to run arbitrary code on.

    26. Re:All of these have this flaw by Cramer · · Score: 1

      If your car is worth anything at all, odds are someone will desire to take it. I've seen videos of people stealing various makes of BMW via diag hacks, made easier by alarm blind spots. And it's not limited to high-ish end makes; bog-standard hondas, vws, and fords are stolen and stripped all the time.

      It gets much easier with "OnStar"... that's a radio with complete control of the car.

    27. Re:All of these have this flaw by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Like those cheap OBDII bluetooth dongles? I fired up my tablet in the driveway once and saw four of those damned things. (having VW specific tools, I could totally fuck with the neighbor's car.)

    28. Re:All of these have this flaw by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, they already are. Because so many components are on the CAN bus, replacing them without special tools isn't possible.

    29. Re:All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It might not be that hard, but it doesn't mean auto manufacturers have been following those standards. Just look into the Jeep Liberty hack from a couple years ago.

    30. Re:All of these have this flaw by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 2
      Exactly. Here's another serious flaw in cars:

      The vulnerability affects the petrol tank that's deployed in modern cars and used to hold fuel that runs the vehicle's internal components. The flaw was discovered by college students everywhere, and involves pouring sugar into it. Researchers say this flaw is not a vulnerability in the classic meaning of the word. This is because the flaw is more of a petrol tank standard design choice that makes it unpatchable.

      Then there's the "penknife in the side wall of the tires" flaw, the "pull the distributor cap/spark plugs/ignition wiring flaw", the ...

    31. Re:All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually Canbus is normally seperate for infotainment v's critical systems

    32. Re:All of these have this flaw by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      If your car is worth anything at all, odds are someone will desire to take it. I've seen videos of people stealing various makes of BMW via diag hacks, made easier by alarm blind spots. And it's not limited to high-ish end makes; bog-standard hondas, vws, and fords are stolen and stripped all the time.

      It gets much easier with "OnStar"... that's a radio with complete control of the car.

      The topic was more sabotage than theft. But car thefts have reduced significantly with new technology in place. Stealing cars now is a lot harder than its ever been, and the type of theft you describe is quite rare relative to overall theft numbers.

    33. Re:All of these have this flaw by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      It might not be that hard, but it doesn't mean auto manufacturers have been following those standards. Just look into the Jeep Liberty hack from a couple years ago.

      Valid point, but even then the hack was only performed in what was basically a lab setting, with the hackers having physical access to the car.

    34. Re:All of these have this flaw by Immerman · · Score: 2

      >you are into fully autonomous driving ...

      I didn't see anything about that - all they initially mentioned was "drive by wire", where there's no direct mechanical linkage between the driver and the car - something which is becoming increasingly common. Just that, and an internet-connected... anything on the same bus, and a hijacker could potentially crash the car at will. Lane assist, etc. might make the attack easier, but then again all they really have to do is spoof the gas pedal sending a "maximum acceleration" signal for a while, and then spoof a "steering wheel is turning".

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    35. Re:All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's the crux of the matter, I think.

      CANBus is insecure! IF you have physical access.

      Okay, so what? Once an attacker gets physical access, it's game over anyway. Don't worry about it.

      Okay, CANBus is insecure by design.

      I wish I could display and control the engine settings on the touchscreen. That's part of the navigation system. Okay, it's trusted, right? We'll just link them together. No problem.

      I wish I could use that nice display the navigation system uses for the stereo.

      Um, okay, sure. We can wire that into the car's sound system.

      It would be nice if my phone could use that kick-ass sound system in the car, so I can have hands-free.

      Okay, let's link the phone to the entertainment system. What could go wrong? It's an entertainment system. If you hack it, you don't get your tunes. Not that critical.

      Who would have been able to predict that there might be a way into the car's control system from a phone? Can't blame us for that predicting that!

      But wait, to fix that, we have to lock down that CANBus system! That's the answer. Not this crazy nonsense of building isolation around critical systems. Do you know how much WORK that would be? Madness!

    36. Re:All of these have this flaw by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      Jeep already had a widely publicized issue that let anyone access the can-bus over the net.

      All cars are vulnerable to a local access attack, but some might leave the can-bus accessible to the entertainment system which increases the attack surface significantly... Especially if said system is internet connected.

    37. Re:All of these have this flaw by The+Cynical+Critic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's just a "tiny" problem with that... It's called segmentation and encrypted traffic. A number of American and Japanese manufacturers don't really protect their CAN bus traffic at all, but European manufacturers have generally been doing this for well over a decade. Segmenting the CAN bus network is something specially the Germans started doing a long time ago, thou less as an anti-sabotage measure and more as an anti-theft measure when they found that eastern European car thieves were opening doors by connecting the side view mirror's CAN bus port and getting the ignition going by connecting to the CAN bus port in the front passenger footwell. Encryption is a specialty of Volvo's as they tend to have all the data going in the CAN bus encrypted and it's a long and complicated process to get the system to renew the encryption keys whenever you need to replace something that needs to communicate over the CAN bus. Seriously thou, reading this feels like reading an article from a few years ago when people went crazy over the Jeep hack.

      --
      "Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
    38. Re:All of these have this flaw by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      Easily fixable. Infotainment and other fluff on one canbus - vehicle control on another canbus. No ip-capable things on the 'important' bus.
      Except for the fact that the autopilot has to get navigation information over the internet. And everything is controlled with the same touch screen. Not so easy to separate everything anymore.

    39. Re:All of these have this flaw by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

      The article is about 'today's modern cars". I wasn't talking about the ifs of the future, you are into fully autonomous driving which is a totally different discussion.

      What he was describing doesn't require fully autonomous cars though. Semi-autonomous features such as adaptive cruise control (pretty standard on modern cars), and lane departure correction designed to gently nudge your car back into the lane if certain conditions are met would be have sufficient control over the car to cause a problem if it happened all at once and unexpectedly.

    40. Re:All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no such thing as a "transmit line" on a CAN bus. It's a bus. Any device on the network has full read/write access.

    41. Re:All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, because there are so many contract killers in the world, particularly the United States, they'd be discarding their firearms, poison guides, and bomb materials just to kill people this way.

    42. Re: All of these have this flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jeep already had a widely publicized issue that let anyone access the can-bus over the net.

      Which CAM bus, the critical systems but or the infotainment bus?

      Ah, right, it wasn't the critical bus.

  2. Sounds like good design to me by captaindomon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So let me get this straight: If a component on the network starts sending out uncontrolled messaging that looks like a denial of service, or an out of control / perpetually errored state, the network corrects for this problem by disconnecting the component causing chaos. That sounds like the CAN network is doing exactly what it should be doing: maintaining the integrity of the shared network at the expense of disconnecting an infected or malfunctioning node. What am I missing?

    --
    Just because I can hook a shark from a boat, I do no offer to wrestle it in the water.
    1. Re:Sounds like good design to me by JohnFen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe what you're missing is that it shouldn't be possible for an attacker to induce this state in the first place.

    2. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The exploit used existing frames from other devices on the CAN network causing the targeted device to go offline.

    3. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What happens when the component is your airbags or antilock brakes? Now they don't work when you need them.
      Tin foil hat time.
      So some assassin rigs up your airbag and brakes not to work and then runs you off the road. When you die in the ensuing crash the police write it off as bad luck that your air bags failed to deploy and you died in an otherwise survivable accident.

    4. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any actual mechanic would probably like to have control over this, including the ability to track when it occurs and to selectively enable/disable components.

      "Modern" mechanics just read the ODBII sensor and shrug

      It is as much the fault for poor design as it is poor (or misinformed) mechanics

    5. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hardware breaks. Software has bugs. Both ideally shouldn't happen, but both do in any real world. The network does the best thing it can do: protect the overall system against unexpected interference. That's called Good Fail Safe Design.

    6. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree in regards to inducing this state remotely, but once that somebody has direct access to the bus... how would you suggest they be keep from doing this? Noise like this can come from jiggling a loose component as easily as anything

    7. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are so many ways to fuck with a car that dinking with the ECU isn't that much of a payoff. Cutting brake lines, slashing tires, pulling wires to the fuel pump, loosening lug nut on wheels, pouring DEF into the diesel fuel tank, spray foam in the intake, and so on.

      I'm not really bothered by this.

    8. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When the brakes on my car failed due to physical failure (vacuum assist cracked in half causing it to just spray brake fluid on the engine block when I stepped on my brakes) nobody cared. Reported it to the NTHSA, the manufacturer, tried to get a lawyer involved to get the manufacturer involved since a simple sensor on the vacuum assist would have alerted me to the problem but it didn't have such a sensor. Basically what I learned was A) Nobody gives a shit if you die because your brakes stop functioning and B) don't buy VW.

    9. Re:Sounds like good design to me by bws111 · · Score: 1

      What happens is that the malfunction indicator comes on. Screwing up the anitlock brakes means that the 'antilock' function no longer works, not that the brakes don't work.

    10. Re:Sounds like good design to me by hey! · · Score: 2

      Well, it's always been possible for someone with physical access to the car to sabotage it. There are hundreds of ways you can make a car inoperable, likely to break down, or downright dangerous.

      What's different for most cars is that there are more elaborate ways of doing it now.

      But if the car is at all manageable OTA or wirelessly, that's a different story; we're not talking about needing physical access any more. You could hack someone's car while it sat in their locked garage, or while they were driving down the freeway.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    11. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like what happen to me recently.

      Had power steering rack replaced (was leaking), straight away try to steer car and accelerate it would engage ABS like crazy for 2 to 5 seconds then disable ABS and traction control and show ABS light solid on in the instrument cluster meaning there was a fault.

      All that was needed (and instructed to do by factory whenever the steering rack is disconnected) is to reset the steering sensor in the car computer.

      If it wasn't for the car computer realising that there was a sensor issue I would of been stuck. I was able to drive but without ABS or tracking control so I could drive back and get it fixed.

    12. Re: Sounds like good design to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Still bullshit. Of a Car can be accessed ober the Mobile Phone, that Interface must be properly Secured. Using correct crypto protocols. No NSA backdoors please. That rules Out TLS and Similar crap.

      But how is that à CAN Bus issue ?

      ECU Software is already crypto signed, by the way.

    13. Re:Sounds like good design to me by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Maybe what you're missing is that it shouldn't be possible for an attacker to induce this state in the first place.

      That is not a flaw in CAN. It is flaw in the component. Since the "remote access" threat is something the researchers (or the journalist?) just made up, and is supported by no evidence whatsoever, this would require physical access to the component. If a bad guy gets physical access to your engine, then all bets are off. There is no such thing as a secure device in hostile hands.

    14. Re: Sounds like good design to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Car industry safety regulation is basically left to the corporations...

    15. Re:Sounds like good design to me by stabiesoft · · Score: 1

      Agreed, before you just cut the brake lines if you had physical access.

    16. Re: Sounds like good design to me by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Still bullshit. Of a Car can be accessed ober the Mobile Phone, that Interface must be properly Secured. Using correct crypto protocols. No NSA backdoors please. That rules Out TLS and Similar crap.

      But how is that à CAN Bus issue ?

      ECU Software is already crypto signed, by the way.

      It is almost impossible to prevent a person that has physical access to your car from installing some sort of remote controlled device that can cause failure of some component. There are millions of vehicles out there with 'hacking' vulnerabilities, yet we don't see these attacks happening. Sometimes being aware and practical are enough, sometimes more is needed.

    17. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Automotive engineer here. This is pure fear mongering -- and I expect nothing less from Slashdot. First of all a CAN network failure is something that happens in vehicles sometimes - most often due to corrosion on the wires. A typical ECU will go into a failsafe mode if it doesn't communicate on the network. Other ECUs will notice the failure and raise a MIL ("Check Engine") condition.

      This is IT people thinking they are "engineers" because they mistakenly got "engineer" in their title. You want to know what else will take down a CAN bus? A voltage on the lines greater than 32V. And that can cause permanent damage. A vehicle network is not like an IT network; it has vastly different characteristics like real-time behavior that make the design goals wildly different.

      Yes, someone on your OBD-II connector can bring down the CAN bus. So can rain intrusion. If I was going to bother attacking someone I wouldn't bother with the CAN bus. I'm in their vehicle: How about I just plant a bomb (dirka dirka); it's simpler.

    18. Re:Sounds like good design to me by MachineShedFred · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's like saying that it shouldn't be possible for an "attacker" to "hack" your brake lines with a hacksaw.

      If you have physical access to the vehicle and want to do someone harm, there are far easier ways than a laptop plugged into the ODB2 connector. And, the most obvious way that an auto manufacturer would "fix" this "flaw" is to engage in some scheme reminiscent of DRM, further locking down anyone from being able to repair the car themselves.

      Oh, you want to replace the stereo? Fuck you, the security controller for the door locks is in the back, and it all has to have our special firmware on it to talk. You can get the $300 upgrade the stereo at the dealership for $2000.

      No thanks, I'll stick with the "flawed" CANbus.

      --
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    19. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod this up!

    20. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Maybe what you're missing is that it shouldn't be possible for an attacker to induce this state in the first place.

      It isn't, because it requires local access. If you already have installed hardware in the car, you don't need other tricks, you could have done all of the same things by physical manipulation.

    21. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      What am I missing?

      Try it while waving your hands in the air and modulating your voice rapidly up and down, and see if you don't feel a little more freaked out by the FUD.

    22. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Well, it's always been possible for someone with physical access to the car to sabotage it.

      When I was a teenager one of my friends saw a beaten up old car with no windows on sale for $250 and on the sign it said "runs." My friend only had $40. So he popped the hood, (no windows) and removed the ignition rotor. Then he went and asked about the car. In the end he bought it for $40.

      These car-hack stories are so weak. If you're inside my car, instead of fiddling with the electronics, you might just steal it. That would be way worse. If terrorists want to hold your car hostage by controlling the brakes... that sounds less scary than any of the old ways, and less likely to work.

    23. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      That's why they put the word "or" in there strategically, so that the scary part could be complete bullshit and they could still claim their sentence was true.

    24. Re:Sounds like good design to me by thejynxed · · Score: 1

      Right now it only requires local access, and only for certain makes and models. When you introduce things like OnStar, local embedded WAPs, 3G/4G/5G radio controllers, etc into the equation, suddenly that local access requirement away rather quickly.

      Automakers are rushing into making "smart" vehicles that talk to each other and all sorts of other things while on the road, it won't be long before someone decides it will be fun to break into these systems and cause all sorts of havoc.

      --
      @Mindless Drivel: 100% of Twitter posts ever Tweeted.
    25. Re:Sounds like good design to me by slacktide · · Score: 1

      Plenty of CANBUS modules already require a trip to the dealer for coding before they will function on the network after being replaced. Typical charge is an hour of labor, around $150. Google "component protection"

    26. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With all the controls being moved to electronic, I do feel it's necessary to alert the drive if something has been tampered with though. If someone has changed the software or hardware to, say make it so the brakes will fail, I want to know about it. In older cars, I'd know by the leaking fluid, if this could be done electronically, it's a serious issue if it can be done covertly.

    27. Re:Sounds like good design to me by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      "How about I just plant a bomb (dirka dirka); it's simpler."

      O_o You may have spare bombs lying around to plant in cars, they're hard to come by where I live.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    28. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your terrorist scenario is more like an assassination, rather than a hostage situation.

    29. Re:Sounds like good design to me by Jonathan_S · · Score: 1

      So let me get this straight: If a component on the network starts sending out uncontrolled messaging that looks like a denial of service, or an out of control / perpetually errored state, the network corrects for this problem by disconnecting the component causing chaos. That sounds like the CAN network is doing exactly what it should be doing: maintaining the integrity of the shared network at the expense of disconnecting an infected or malfunctioning node. What am I missing?

      My reading of the article is that the missing bit from your post is that the the purportedly malfunctioning component doesn't judge for itself whether it appears to be "sending out uncontrolled messaging" it believes any other device on the bus that it it's sending garbage.

      That means a malicious component on the CAN bus can just spam every other component with bogus error messages about their output until they disconnect themselves.

      Still that's only a problem when attackers can place or control a device on the CAN bus. (And some cars already mitigate the risk of remote access to those devices by splitting the CAN bus two, putting all the infotainment connected components on one bus and the engine and safety ones on the another (with just a one-way output only bridge from the safety CAN to the infotainment CAN.

    30. Re:Sounds like good design to me by sjames · · Score: 1

      Exactly this. While there have been a few notable exceptions where lower priority components have allowed remote access to the CAN bus, the rest of the attacks are of the in-person variety and so are bogus. IT people should know that. It is widely understood that physical access to a server is game over for security.

  3. Multiple CANs Per Vehicle by Thelasko · · Score: 1

    Most vehicles have at least two CANs. A public one, that is accessed through the OBD port shown in TFA. They also have a "private" CAN. That network should be used for vital communications between modules, and the messages are largely proprietary.

    --
    One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
  4. That's why you must silence the comms by JohnFen · · Score: 1, Informative

    My approach so far is to avoid buying cars that include communications. Eventually, though, even older used cars will have this crap.

    At that point, I'll have to disable the comms. Right now, that appears to be easy to do in almost every car (just locate and remove the antenna). Hopefully, that will get me through the rest of my car-driving years.

    1. Re: That's why you must silence the comms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not just pull the sim?

    2. Re:That's why you must silence the comms by sexconker · · Score: 1

      A communications disruption can mean only one thing.

      Invasion.

    3. Re: That's why you must silence the comms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would not trust it to not have a default emergency sim that is soldered to the board. I mean if I'm gonna be paranoid, don't cut corners.

    4. Re: That's why you must silence the comms by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      The sim is not usually removable, and the electronics may be integrated into critical circuit boards you don't want to mess up.

      The antenna, however, is always easy to access (it needs to be somewhere unshielded).

    5. Re:That's why you must silence the comms by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      What are you going to do when the antenna is embedded in a window?

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    6. Re:That's why you must silence the comms by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      I'd either pass on buying the car outright, or count the cost of replacing the window as part of the purchase price and see if it's still worth it to me.

    7. Re:That's why you must silence the comms by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      (Or, now that I think of it -- the antenna has to make the jump from the window to the circuit board somewhere. Probably with a wire. Snip, snip.)

    8. Re:That's why you must silence the comms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where's the tinfoil mod?

    9. Re:That's why you must silence the comms by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      Just become like this guy, who, based on his comments, travelled about 40,000 miles in his 55 year old car last year.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    10. Re: That's why you must silence the comms by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      antenna can be built right into the board like it is on IoT devices. There could be a backup antenna and you'd never know. For somebody trying to be paranoid, you're not doing a very good job at it.

      You have to find brands that have a separate telemetry computer, and that can tolerate its removal.

      Usually the Japanese brands are well engineered to continue functioning without all the doodads, so you can just unplug stuff you don't like.

    11. Re: That's why you must silence the comms by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      antenna can be built right into the board like it is on IoT devices.

      Depends on where the board is. The antenna has to be somewhere outside of shielding.

      For somebody trying to be paranoid, you're not doing a very good job at it.

      I'm not seeing how paranoia enters into it. Paranoid would be if I thought cars were phoning home when they aren't. We both know that they are.

      In the end, though, this is probably something I'll be able to sidestep completely simply by sticking with buying cars that are old enough. That's a solution I'm fine with.

    12. Re:That's why you must silence the comms by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      Right next to your unwarranted insult mod.

      Not wanting my equipment talking to other people without my knowledge and consent isn't even remotely paranoia. There are copious very real security issues involved.

    13. Re: That's why you must silence the comms by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      You might want to refrain from telling people what they know, since you're not even from a planet with humanoids that have that capability.

      I do know that most vehicles do not phone home. I also know that when I drive a rental car, it does.

    14. Re:That's why you must silence the comms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Accidentally" cut the cable connected to it? If they're dual-purpose get the rear demister that's trickier, though I guess you could always drop in an LC filter to cut the signal.

    15. Re: That's why you must silence the comms by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure why you're so upset that you feel the need to be insulting. I didn't kick your puppy, I merely stated a personal preference.

      By the way, how do you think the newer crop of cars (such as Fords starting in 2016) can get over-the-air software updates?

    16. Re: That's why you must silence the comms by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      I merely stated a personal preference.

      No, you stated what I know, and got it wrong. If you can't even comprehend your own words, don't get started complaining about mine.

    17. Re:That's why you must silence the comms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No need, it's would be pretty easy to disconnect the little wire going to the window.

    18. Re: That's why you must silence the comms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's right, you're wrong.

      It's the height of disingenuous to claim that you don't know that contemporary cars communicate wirelessly with their manufacturers' servers (i.e. "phone home") - or to get all offended when someone assumes that you do know that.

      It's common fucking knowledge that cars phone home. It's not a psychological disorder to have concerns about that.

  5. This exploit is too subtle. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If one has physical access, I think you will find it is also vulnerable to simple voltage injection, say 110v.

    This is easily created using capacitors when a wall outlet is inconvenient.

    Why knock out one device when you can kill the whole bus? Am I missing the point? Abs breaks won't work, just time the injection correctly.

    1. Re:This exploit is too subtle. by JohnFen · · Score: 0

      This exploit can be done remotely. Physical access is not required.

    2. Re:This exploit is too subtle. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this can only be done remotely based on which infotainment system the vehicle has, otherwise it requires physical access. This means that only specific infotainment systems are vulnerable and cars with out any type of connectivity (bluetooth or wifi hotspot) will require physical access to the car.

    3. Re:This exploit is too subtle. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Proof? Nothing in the article says ANYTHING about it being a remote exploit. This is about an attacker on the CAN bus itself, that is, you know, physically plugged into something on the car.

    4. Re:This exploit is too subtle. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      When I was 14, I was banned from a radio shack for returning charged caps.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:This exploit is too subtle. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like to hear this story.

    6. Re: This exploit is too subtle. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well. The fucking summary says it can be done remotely. Which for slashdot is already reading a lot.

      I assume this means remote exploit of something (infotainment) sure - then using that into CAN.

      and that is NOT a crazy scenario or you haven't been around IT long enough. Exploits will be found. Car ransomware WILL happen

    7. Re:This exploit is too subtle. by Baloroth · · Score: 1

      That's not really true, nothing about the "exploit" allows for remote access. If you have *another* exploit that allows remote access (remote access that allows you to directly manipulate CAN frames, to be specific), you can then use it, but the "flaw" has no remote accessibility.

      Note that calling it a "flaw" or "exploit" is a bit hyperbolic: that's a bit like calling "rm -rf --no-preserve-root" an exploit because someone with root access can use it to wipe your computer. Yeah, no shit someone with low-level access to the bus protocol on your car can mess things up: once you get to that point the system is already owned by the attacker.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    8. Re:This exploit is too subtle. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you also blow glass diodes by overvolting them? Or daisy chain charged caps?

  6. Not a flaw, but a feature by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1, Troll

    It's so we can shut down your cars when you try to drive them into high security areas that are federally controlled.

    For exactly that reason.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Not a flaw, but a feature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I used to see a 1963 Corvette in the parking lot of a highly secure facility that I worked at... Do you suppose that they had to vet this guy so that he could use a non-jammable vehicle?

      Just wonderin

    2. Re:Not a flaw, but a feature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good sir, your tin foil hat is falling off. Would you please adjust and recalibrate it, thank you.

    3. Re:Not a flaw, but a feature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's so we can shut down your cars when you try to drive them into high security areas that are federally controlled.

      Today. Tomorrow it could be for not supporting Trump. Slippery slope as you yanks loike to saiy.

  7. Exploit requires access by klossner · · Score: 5, Insightful

    To perform this DOS attack, you must have a device physically connected to the CAN bus. If an attacker has that kind of access to your car, a DOS attack is not your biggest problem. The attacker could just as easily pump 120 volts into the bus and fry every component. Or leave a time bomb on the driver's seat.

    1. Re:Exploit requires access by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The attacker could just as easily pump 120 volts into the bus and fry every component.

      But that's nowhere near as cool as an "UNPATCHABLE FLAW"!!!!!111!!

    2. Re:Exploit requires access by bobbied · · Score: 1

      THIS!

      Seriously, if you have physical access to a vehicle to access the CAN Bus, you can cut a break line or otherwise mess with anything on the car. Safety systems, Security systems, entertainment systems, you name it. Physical access implies all the same risks as this CAN buss "vulnerability" and MORE.

      I'm not seeing the huge problem here, at least not for car owners.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    3. Re:Exploit requires access by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To perform this DOS attack, you must have a device physically connected to the CAN bus.

      What prevents an attacker from remotely compromising a device that's connected to an external network and the can bus, then using that device's access to attack the can bus?

    4. Re:Exploit requires access by mrbester · · Score: 1

      A simple denial of service is to pull the fuel pump fuse. Good luck diagnosing that one quicky as the car will start with what is lying in the pipe. You might even get a half a mile before it conks out and you'll think something failed *then* not that you had the problem before you started driving...

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    5. Re:Exploit requires access by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      A simple denial of service is to pull the fuel pump fuse. Good luck diagnosing that one quicky as the car will start with what is lying in the pipe. You might even get a half a mile before it conks out and you'll think something failed *then* not that you had the problem before you started driving...

      Wrong. With fuel injection, no fuel pump=no ignition. The engine won't even start with the fuel pump disabled, or if it does, for no more than a second or two.

    6. Re:Exploit requires access by Carewolf · · Score: 2

      To perform this DOS attack, you must have a device physically connected to the CAN bus. If an attacker has that kind of access to your car, a DOS attack is not your biggest problem. The attacker could just as easily pump 120 volts into the bus and fry every component. Or leave a time bomb on the driver's seat.

      Bomb under the car is a wellknown security issue with cars. It has been known for years. OMG!!! When will they solve it???

    7. Re:Exploit requires access by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not necessarily. Your digital radio is connected to that bus.

      There exist exploits that can gain direct access to the CAN bus via this radio - see for example http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-33622298

      That digital radio almost certainly has a Bluetooth link for your mobile as well - which can almost certainly be exploited in a similar way.

      And that's before you even start on the "smarts" in many modern cars (apps etc). Things sure are getting "interesting".

    8. Re:Exploit requires access by mrbester · · Score: 1

      Works on my heap of shit Astra... I suppose newer cars would fail quicker. But I'm not meaning fuel injection, of course that wouldn't work. I mean pumping the fuel from tank to engine. There's most of a car length of fuel filled pipe after the pump which just sits there (unless it drains back) when the engine is off.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
  8. okay by ArylAkamov · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is nothing new, anyone who has developed a CAN device before knows this, no "shocking new research" needed. It was never designed to be secure, it was designed to be extremely resistant to noisy environments, and does a damn good job at it.
    tl;dr if you are a political target, get an older car without an electric throttle body and electric power steering bullshit.

    1. Re:okay by JohnFen · · Score: 0

      if you are a political target, get an older car without an electric throttle body and electric power steering bullshit.

      Why only if you're a political target? This seems like wise advice for everybody.

    2. Re:okay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I spent the start of my career as a CAN networking expert (ha!). And, actually, I have transitioned into security about 3 years ago. When people ask me if I think we'll see CAN die in favor of Ethernet, I always say no. We will definitely see ethernet take major roles away for CAN, but there will always be a fridge or factory or airplane or just a lesser subnetwork in the vehicle running CAN. CAN is awesome.

    3. Re:okay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      About as wise as "switch all electricity production to coal and change the emergency number to 0118 999 881 99 9119 7253".

    4. Re:okay by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      tl;dr if you are a political target, get an older car without an electric throttle body and electric power steering bullshit.

      Such a car will be hopelessly outclassed by anything modern. It's not a good plan for security, either.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:okay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a 2015 Challenger 392 and a 1967 Chevelle SS. The Chevelle completely smokes the Challenger and gets similar MPG.

    6. Re:okay by ArylAkamov · · Score: 1

      I got interested in it a few years ago looking for a way to network some 'custom' stuff I was making for my car. i2c and SPI was having more than a few issues under the hood.
      I was bored, it was a fun project. Ended up getting really interested in it, very cool way of communication and I love how message priority works. Last thing I made was a small board that plugged into where the factory ($500) CD changer would go to enable a wired or bluetooth connection to a phone, retaining all the steering wheel button functionality and adding hands free calling. Totally worth the effort to see it all work in the end.

  9. Oh enough of this shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I am so sick of infosec nerds thinking they know more than the engineers at Ford, BMW, etc. About building cars. Coming up with new "vulnerabilities" - "I just need physical access to the car's OBD-II port with a laptop". Stick to Flintstones cars if you feel so insecure, the rest of us will drive fearlessly in luxury.

    1. Re:Oh enough of this shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Couldn't agree more. Crap posting.
      >The issue can be exploited with local access by default, but if any of the car's components contains a remotely-exploitable flaw, then the CAN vulnerability can also be exploited from a remote location.
      This is a HUGE fucking stretch from "allows an attacker with local or even remote access to a vehicle ..."
      If someone is under your hood, then they can "hack" your car in a multitude of ways. Just like if someone is snapped into your network they can deliberately ruin your day.
      Big fucking deal, this is not news, especially not since CAN was deliberately designed this way.

    2. Re: Oh enough of this shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I can hack your brakes With à wire Cutter. No Laptops required.

    3. Re:Oh enough of this shit by Script+Cat · · Score: 3, Funny

      Just like this server is totally unsecure all I have to do is swap the hard drive and motherboard and I have root access.

    4. Re: Oh enough of this shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why cut the brakes? Now I can disable the brakes with a software flaw that's untraceable.

    5. Re:Oh enough of this shit by MachineShedFred · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In fact, this is such a known quantity by anyone that knows what the hell is going on in a modern car that there are products you can buy for some cars that actively edit the CANbus signals going into the ECU to tune the car's engine without invasive and potentially dangerous loading of non-sanctioned firmware. And, this additive hardware adds settings and features that were never available to the car from the manufacturer, such as altering turbo boost based on current octane sensor data and oil temperature data - increasing power when safe to do so, but decreasing if fuel quality is bad, or the engine is too hot. It achieves the desired effect in a safer, better, and more reversible way than an ECU flash with a different boost mapping.

      And this is possible because you can slap a signal processor in between the ECU and the rest of the CANbus, and the ECU will never know it's happening. Something starts to go wrong, and you disable it or remove it completely (unless something goes REALLY wrong, in which case caveat emptor, buddy.)

      Yeah, I'll go ahead and keep the open CANbus instead of some new standard that requires all kinds of lockdown and essentially DRM, and deal with the exactly zero "vulnerability" issues in literally billions of vehicle-miles travelled by CANbus equipped vehicles.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    6. Re:Oh enough of this shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I'll go ahead and keep the open CANbus instead of some new standard that requires all kinds of lockdown and essentially DRM

      I couldn't agree more. This is such a non-issue. That being said, sadly there is something called FlexRay in some cars. It's not DRM but it's such a pain to deal with (and source components for) it may as well be.

    7. Re:Oh enough of this shit by freeze128 · · Score: 2

      ...such as altering turbo boost based on current octane sensor data...

      Is this for real cars, or only for the Knight Industries Two Thousand?

    8. Re:Oh enough of this shit by DarkOx · · Score: 5, Informative

      So I am one of those infosec guys and we have been doing CAN bus assessments for the big 3 for some time now. This has to be the stupidest article I have read in some time.

      First off the next gen cars are already implementing 'segmented' CAN buses with a firewall module that allows some devices to send white listed messages from the less privileged body areas to the more privileged engine management and safety buses. So this problem is already being solved.

      Very few existing cars have a path to remotely introduce CAN messages. Some do but those interfaces have by and large been hardened pretty well, the Jeep stuff from some years ago is long fixed.

      So what have here is basically if you are in the car you can do bad stuff by wiring into the can bus. Okay I make the airbag fail too buy yanking it out of the dash board, who cares.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    9. Re:Oh enough of this shit by Hylandr · · Score: 1

      You prick, now I have the theme song stuck in my head.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    10. Re:Oh enough of this shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I am so sick of infosec nerds thinking they know more than the engineers at Ford, BMW, etc. About building cars.

      You are right. But maybe, just maybe infosec people know more about information security than car engineers.

      One tiny bit of best-practices via two-way authentication would be enough. Right now CAN is like sending your banking account password in plaintext over an unencrypted connection.

    11. Re:Oh enough of this shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm so tired of ACs that think they know more about computer networks and interconnected information systems than those who do it for a living. Coming up with new "impossibilities" - "It's a fucking CAR, not a computer. Go back to your basement while I use this remote app on my phone to start the car and turn on the heater, neckbeard." Get in that screaming metal death trap if you are so bold, the rest of us will kindly avoid being a victim of the next virus on the auto-drive network from IS, or being "delivered" to the nearest interrogation drop-off after a date.

    12. Re:Oh enough of this shit by slacktide · · Score: 1

      Real cars. On my Audi it is a trivial operation to reflash the ECU to bypass less supercharger boost (or turbo boost on turbocharged Audis), which increases power as long as you are using high octane fuel. If you are not using high octane fuel, it will cause detonation which quickly melts pistons. APR is a popular vendor but there are around a dozen competing companies that have developed their own boost maps. An engine rated at 333 HP will put out somewhere around 390 HP with the majority of the increased power coming from the additional boost. Amazingly, it i proves MPG at the same time. https://www.goapr.com/products...

    13. Re:Oh enough of this shit by gumbi+west · · Score: 3, Funny

      Okay I make the airbag fail too buy yanking it out of the dash board, who cares.

      The person whose airbag you just yanked out of their dashboard?

    14. Re:Oh enough of this shit by nhtshot · · Score: 1

      +1 for APR

    15. Re:Oh enough of this shit by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Except now vehicles have built-in cellular service, and manufacturers can do things like remotely read codes set by the various computers in the vehicle, and remotely update the firmware of the various computers in the vehicle.

      Guess what bus they use to do all these neat things? That's right, the CAN bus. And because car manufacturers aren't exactly experts in computer security, there are/will be vulnerabilities, allowing remote access by others, to do all this fun stuff, without anyone needing to physically touch the vehicle.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    16. Re:Oh enough of this shit by DarkOx · · Score: 3

      That is what I am saying though. They are hardening the cellular interfaces which at one point were laughably badly done. They are starting to segment the network and put what are basically firewalls onto the CAN bus.

      What you are seeing now is that cellular interface will be connected to the body module, and sure it can send any message it wants, so you pwn the cellular adapter. Alright great, but the firewall module that connects the body modules zone of the CAN bus to the say the engine-management modules zone of the CAN bus will only pass certain messages. It won't say let you change the fuel mix but will pass the "Show me your fault codes" message.

      The firewall modules are programmable in terms of policy, I don't know if the one I was looking at could have its policy updated remotely or if you'd need to cable up. That was out of scope, we were assigned to test the policy. The rules were we could plug into the ODB2 port and/or pop the infotainment system out and plug in there. Were were supposed to prove that even if you got code running on the infotainment system (possible can update firmware, handles user provided files, usb etc) you could not interact with anything safety critical.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    17. Re:Oh enough of this shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am so sick of infosec nerds thinking they know more than the engineers at Ford, BMW, etc. About building cars. Coming up with new "vulnerabilities" - "I just need physical access to the car's OBD-II port with a laptop". Stick to Flintstones cars if you feel so insecure, the rest of us will drive fearlessly in luxury.

      Yep, pretty much all of these require the attacker to have already broken into the car to begin with and by then all bets are off anyway.

    18. Re:Oh enough of this shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Observing how poorly software behaves on Ford, BMW, etc, I am not surprised that most cars are remotely hackable with a possibility of a real kill switch. You put too much trust with those so-called "engineirs".

    19. Re:Oh enough of this shit by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      There's a machine that some guy says nobody can possibly hack. If you can, hack it. The guy that owns it thinks he knows everything. The ipaddress is 127.0.0.1. You might want to try root with the password to root on your machine. I know, it's crazy but it might work.

    20. Re:Oh enough of this shit by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      Best Post Ever.

      --
      Murphy was an optimist
    21. Re:Oh enough of this shit by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Sure, they are trying to, but, giving the present state of software development, it is unlikely they will be able to keep out determined hackers anytime soon.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    22. Re:Oh enough of this shit by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Here's a company that makes such devices for BMW, Mercedes, Mini, VW, and the Inifiti Q50.

      But thanks for the snarky reply. Some people do still post things to Slashdot that they have some knowledge of.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  10. "All it takes" by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1
    From TFA:

    Special device needed to carry out local attacks
    The research team says that all it takes is a specially-crafted device that attackers have to connect to the car's CAN bus through local open ports.

    So, to be clear, a specially-crafted device, connected directly to an open local port.

    "The only current recommendation for protecting against this exploit is to limit access to input ports (specifically OBD-II) on automobiles," said ICS-CERT experts in an alert released last month.

    Um... So don't let strangers with car hacking gear ride along with you in your car -- or watch them *very* closely -- check.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:"All it takes" by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      Ah, I stand corrected. This isn't so bad, then.

      I will continue to avoid buying cars that have wireless communications facilities, though.

    2. Re:"All it takes" by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      I will continue to avoid buying cars that have wireless communications facilities, though.

      Agreed. I'm disappointed that most (all?) new higher-level Hondas come with keyless entry and ignition. I get that it lessens their costs in making door and ignition locks, but at our expense of a $$$ and large keyfob. At this point, I'd pay extra for a regular ignition key and door locks, but that won't be an option. Luckily my 2001 Civic EX (120k miles) and 2002 CR-V EX (46k miles) are in excellent shape, except needing a few clear-coat touch-ups.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    3. Re:"All it takes" by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      In most places you can probably just go to an auto locksmith and get third party ignition installed. They already install third-party systems that have both keyed and keyless access, just upgrade to one of those and turn off the keyless part.

  11. Another approcah. by harrkev · · Score: 4, Funny

    There is another approach. CAN traffic happens over a differential pair. I have a specially-constructed device that can jam CAN traffic. I call it a "paperclip." I bend it and plug it into both data lines on the OBD port and the network is dead.

    We need to ban these dangerous hacking paperclips.

    --
    "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    1. Re:Another approcah. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Was about to say the same thign! Turns out, if you short out the CAN bus, it doesn't do anything...

  12. Physical access by Danielsen · · Score: 1

    I dont see any problem with this as long as the CAN bus is not accessible from the outside.
    I can also create an DoS attack on my PC if I short pins on the motherboard.
    You don't need an arduino to get CAN nodes to get into bus-off state, just short the two CAN bus signals together a couple of times.
    If you have physical access then you can also disable Airbags, and ABS brakes with a sidecutter.

    1. Re:Physical access by harrkev · · Score: 2

      Well, you have found the problem: "not accessible from the outside."

      Car makers have jumped on the "smart everything" revolution, so they built devices into the cars that can bridge CAN with cell phone networks (On-Star, for example). If you own the On-Star, you can do pretty much whatever you want.

      The problem is not with CAN, however. The problem is with the typical crappy security between things that bridge CAN to other data sources.

      The one thing to remember about CAN is that it is a SHARED BUS. There is no hub; the same wires go to all devices. This means that a compromised device can jabber and jam all traffic, continually send higher-priority traffic to eat up bandwidth, or even pretend to be any device that it wants to send false data. No protocol can stop this without going to a hub-style arrangement, which increases the amount of wiring. Decreasing wiring (and its cost and weight) was one of the prime reasons for inventing CAN -- to allow multiple devices to share the same wires, so if you want to use a hub, you might as well get rid of CAN and just go back to point-to-point wiring.

      I can imagine changes to the PHY to stop the "jabbering idiot" problem, but nothing that would prevent the other attacks.

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    2. Re:Physical access by Danielsen · · Score: 1

      "I can imagine changes to the PHY to stop the "jabbering idiot" problem, but nothing that would prevent the other attacks."
      The Bus-off condition they are generating, IS the "jabbering idiot" protection.

    3. Re:Physical access by harrkev · · Score: 1

      Yes, a PHY could detect continuous transmission by simply having a time-out.

      Or clever software could keep on turning transmission on and off to fool the timer.

      How would you prevent a device from sending packet of a higher priority or sending packets from a different address to spoof the data? While it might be possible, it would mean putting a LOT more smarts into the PHY -- such as the ability to actually partially decode packets, and all of the configuration that goes with it.

      Think of a bank vault -- do they put great security around each and every dollar bill, or do they just build great security between the money and the outside world. Same thing here: you don't change the network, you make the interface between the network and other sources of data more secure, so nobody can use that to get into the network.

      If somebody has physical access, it is already game over. They could screw up your CAN bus, cut your brake lines, pull wires, or just pee in the gas tank. What is more worrying are attacks over wireless networks.

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    4. Re:Physical access by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      So don't plug shit into it. When you wire a new car stereo, plug in speakers, antenna, power, "memory" power, ground, and that's it! Maybe a CD changer or something. Don't plug into the car's control systems. Problem solved! If you don't trust the stereo that came with the car, don't get the entertainment option just install your own.

      My question is, why are people using electronic doodads given to them by a car manufacturer, just because they're in the car? If you want doodads, choose your own doodads. Use your car as a car.

    5. Re:Physical access by harrkev · · Score: 1

      You don't have to plug anything into it. All of that stuff is already built-in. GM cars already have On-Star built-in. Every car has a remote door unlocker (and maybe engine starter) built in. Many entertainment systems also include Bluetooth. These are all potential intrusion points, and there even before you drive the car off of the lot.

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    6. Re:Physical access by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Not all cars require installation of OnStar, that is crazy. You do realize I can make it up out of the basement to look around, and even drive my own car sometimes, right?

      You may not know how your remote door locks work, but I do know how mine work.

      I also know how bluetooth works. And if your bluetooth car stereo is connected to your ECM, you have other problems.

      If you don't know how any of the technology works, no, that does not make everything an intrusion point.

    7. Re:Physical access by harrkev · · Score: 1

      Your Bluetooth is built into your entertainment system, and your entertainment system is connected to your car's network.. Yes, bluetooth transmits audio. It also allows phone calls, exchanges phone book entries, and more. Who knows what a crafty hacker could do with a detailed analysis.

      I also know how a car door unlocker works. There is a radio receiver. When it receives the right code, it sends a CAN bus message to unlock the doors. Simple. However, there is still the POSSIBILITY of a flaw in the system. Maybe send a malformed radio message that overflows a buffer and allows code injection. Can you honestly say that this is not possible? Worse things have happened.

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    8. Re:Physical access by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Your Bluetooth is built into your entertainment system, and your entertainment system is connected to your car's network.

      Stop, stop, right at the start but stop. You don't know if that is true. If you can't even comprehend English grammar well enough to phrase your claim in a way that has any chance at being true then why would I listen to you? Not all entertainment systems are connected to the car's network, that is just insane bullshit containing an easily-disprovable absolute. Your basic premise isn't true, but you'd know that just by knowing that you can't see which entertainment system my car has and so you have no clue.

      Where do you even get the idea that the CAN bus in involved? You blather some nonsense that certainly isn't true on my car, and you phrase it as if all cars are the same, so you should really provide a source. And by "source" I mean, did you learn this by looking at your own car? Did you read it on slashdot? Did you read it on some other social website? Did you read it in your car's factory service manual?

      Have you ever even looked at wiring diagrams for a car? It sure as heck doesn't look like a ethernet closet! This isn't the sort of situation where communication has to happen over the network. In a datacenter that would be true because all the wires going into a box are either power or network. But in a car, that's not the case; there are way more direct wires doing one thing than there are network wires. When I was rewiring my door, was there some sort of microcontroller with a network connection to the other systems? No, there were simply servos with activation wires that lead all the way back to the central computer. In my case the security system is built into that same box, and that is where the remote door unlock lives.

      Now, if you have no idea how any of this technology works but you have a code scanner and sit in my car looking at the bus activity, you do see bus events when I press the remote unlock. Because when the computer decides to unlock the door, it also sends out a message on the bus. But if that data is all you're looking at, you wouldn't even realize that generating a false message wouldn't unlock anything, that's just a status message.

      Just looking at wiring diagrams and which wires different components have can teach you that much.

      Some cars are designed differently; some route all the shit through the bus, and they have more than one bus because of that. And so you still can't fiddle anything important from somewhere silly.

      Your argument is basically, "I don't know, and flaws are possible, so specific technical concern." That formula doesn't work at all.

    9. Re:Physical access by harrkev · · Score: 1

      No, not all entertainment systems have Bluetooth. I guess some stripped-down models can't afford the extra $5. Oh, wait. Never mind. The Mistubishi Mirage, the cheapest new car in America, has Bluetooth standard in its LOWEST equipment package. Oh, look. The Ford Fiesta's base model (Fords cheapest car) comes with "SYNC" which works with ... wait for it... Bluetooth. I guess there might be one manufacturer that might have a model without Bluetooth -- maybe. Let me check my local Best Buy for their car receivers. Wait.. I did actually find TWO whole models without Bluetooth, so I guess SOMEBODY might have one

      Yes, this is not true for ALL cars, but it pretty much IS true for NEW cars.

      That "remote unlock" command that you mentioned? Yeah, that command is likely CAUSING the unlock. It is likely that the solenoid that controls the lock has a CAN listener on there.

      So, yeah, this cannot totally happen, except here if video proof that, at least on some vehicles, it can happen... Here is a video of guys remote-controlling a Jeep -- from miles away -- while the Jeep is being driven... What should I believe: your opinion, or video proof. Hmmm, let me think about it for a while...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    10. Re:Physical access by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      The problem, you think you know a lot but you don't know shit.

      For example, did you know that many dealers offer third party entertainment systems pre-installed? Obviously not, because the mere existence of that destroys your argument.

      Knowing a few random factoids doesn't mean you can just extrapolate and know everything. Doesn't work that way.

      And I fucking explained why you might see it on the CAN bus even though you can't actually activate the feature over the bus! Lots of information is spammed over the bus, so the your HUD can display random information, it does NOT mean that the features the information is about can be activated that way. You can't even tell what information you have, and what information you don't have, how can you even comprehend, much less argue?

    11. Re:Physical access by harrkev · · Score: 1

      OK. Fine. Your are right. I don't know anything, and I clearly did NOT see Bluetooth in even the cheapest cars. I guess that Ford and Mitsubishi must clearly not be informed about the features of their own cars.

      Here is a challenge for you the. Go to a dealer and TRY to buy a new car without Bluetooth. Let me know how successful you are.

      Next you will be telling me that fancy extras on cars like "interval wipers" and "anti-lock brakes" are also rare.

      I have no time to waste on people who will try to tell me that water is not wet.

      Also, please ignore that video PROVING that somebody can remotely hack a vehicle.

      Also, please ignore web sites like this that show you how to use an Arduino to contol the air conditioning of your car...

      https://news.voyage.auto/an-in...

      Also, I urge you to pretend that this did not happen, and ignore the word "infotainment" in the text:

      A few years later, in 2015, security researchers Charlie Miller and Chris Valasek
      demonstrated a remote exploitation of an unaltered passenger vehicle via the vehicleâ(TM)s
      cellular interface. This attack took advantage of a vulnerability in the Sprint cellular
      network and the onboard Uconnect infotainment system of a 2014 Jeep Cherokee (Miller
      & Valasek, 2015). The attack allowed Miller and Valasek to remotely take over the
      Jeepâ(TM)s steering, transmission, and brakes, the aftermath of which is shown in Figure 1:

      https://www.sans.org/reading-room/whitepapers/awareness/hacking-bus-basic-manipulation-modern-automobile-through-bus-reverse-engineering-37825

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    12. Re:Physical access by harrkev · · Score: 1

      Entertainment systems are NOT connected to the CAN bus at all. That is why THIS page must be a pure fantasy. Some fool must have an active imagination to thing that the stereo control buttons on the steering wheel send CAN messages intended to be intercepted by the stereo system.

      The funny thins is that his imagination is VERY strong, since it somehow worked.

      https://theksmith.com/software...

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    13. Re:Physical access by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Right, you're conflating "somebody somewhere can remotely hack a particular car" with "all news cars have a remote hacking risk."

      And that is just moronic and I've already wasted more time than you're worth.

    14. Re:Physical access by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      You do know that if I wanted to renew my knowledge about if a particular stereo is connected to the CAN bus or not I could simply look at the wires on the back of the stereo and see what is plugged in... right? And that many of us already have this knowledge?

      You don't know what your car has connected to what, and you have a example, so you think you know what is connected to what in all the cars. That is just a failed IQ test, not knowledge you could share with people. Sorry.

      Yes, before you buy a car you should find out this stuff. No, it isn't the case that all the cars are the same and have shit connected together in a dangerous way.

    15. Re:Physical access by harrkev · · Score: 1

      Most new cars have the POTENTIAL. Not all can be remotely hacked, but know knows WHICH cars determined researchers will be able to crack next.

      Do you know WHICH Linux libraries or packages will be hacked next? Remember Heartbleed? If you could accurately predict where the next hack or bug will be found, you could patch them before they became a problem. The real problem is that security researchers have tried tarot cards, ouija boards, and crystal balls. They have all failed, and we still have random problems popping up.

      You just completely misunderstood what I said.

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    16. Re:Physical access by harrkev · · Score: 1

      Yeah, some do, and some don't. That still does not change the FACT that entertainment centers with both Bluetooth and CAN bus connections are becoming more and more common every year.

      Some might. Some might not. Your car's airbags might shoot fatal fragments, some might not, so you want us all to just assume that our airbag is OK without even bothering to check.

      Besides, lots of new cars do not have Chilton or Haynes manuals readily available, so how is the consumer supposed to know? Do they just assume their car is OK until their brakes stop working in traffic?

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    17. Re:Physical access by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      most + potential = weasel

      And then you make a really weird side trip about linux and heartbleed and tarot cards. You're talking about fucking tarot cards, no I'm not going to take you seriously. Especially when there is a complete lack of ideas, just raw blathering that doesn't add up to any technical points at all, just mealy-mouthed, wish-washy weasel words and FUD.

    18. Re:Physical access by harrkev · · Score: 1

      Says the person who is arguing that cars are secure, despite video evidence to the contrary.

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    19. Re:Physical access by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      I didn't say that cars are secure, you only failed to comprehend my words even after I told you that was case. Talk about stupid.

    20. Re:Physical access by harrkev · · Score: 1

      Please allow me to quote you:

      Right, you're conflating "somebody somewhere can remotely hack a particular car" with "all news cars have a remote hacking risk."

      Yup, your words. I never said any such thing. My point was that it is pretty much standard these days to have the "infotainment" system be attached to both some sort of wireless (say Bluetooth) and the CAN bus at the same time. I PROVED this point. A lot of cars are also connecting cell phone transceivers to the CAN bus, which provides yet another attack route.

      I do not know WHICH cars might have vulnerabilities. I just know that, given enough cars with enough systems, some vulnerabilities will be found, and we cannot predict which ones will be found, and where they will be found. A *LOT* more people look at the Linux OS, and vulnerabilities are still found there on a regular basis. Proper security is hard.

      You just argue against facts.

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    21. Re:Physical access by harrkev · · Score: 1

      Let me make this easy for you. I will list my assertions, in numerical order, and you can tell me which ones you disagree with..

      1) Almost all new cars have an infotainment system that has both Bluetooth and connections to a CAN bus.

      2) Some cars even have devices that connect the cell phone network to the CAN bus.

      3) Linux, and open-source software in general, has a lot of eyeballs looking at it. Anybody can download the source code and review it. Despite this, some bugs are still found, and some have been there for years without being found.

      3) Given #2, it is reasonable to say that security is hard.

      5) Given #3, it is POSSIBLE for there to be bugs in the infotainment or cell system that would allow an attacker to remotely control a car

      6) It is possible that firmware in cars have not been well reviewed. Small development teams make it easier to have bugs.

      7) It is generally IMPOSSIBLE to say that a particular system is invulnerable to attacks. The most that we can say is that no security problems have been found in a particular product SO FAR.

      Yeah, these are my assertions. Which ones do you disagree with?

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    22. Re:Physical access by harrkev · · Score: 1

      Whoops. I screwed up the numbers (note to self: preview). Let me try again...

      1) Almost all new cars have an infotainment system that has both Bluetooth and connections to a CAN bus.

      2) Some cars even have devices that connect the cell phone network to the CAN bus.

      3) Linux, and open-source software in general, has a lot of eyeballs looking at it. Anybody can download the source code and review it. Despite this, some bugs are still found, and some have been there for years without being found.

      4) Given #3, it is reasonable to say that security is hard.

      5) Given #3, it is POSSIBLE for there to be bugs in the infotainment or cell system that would allow an attacker to remotely control a car

      6) It is possible that firmware in cars have not been well reviewed. Small development teams make it easier to have bugs.

      7) It is generally IMPOSSIBLE to say that a particular system is invulnerable to attacks. The most that we can say is that no security problems have been found in a particular product SO FAR.

      8) If an attacker DOES manage to compromise a system, the attacker could do great damage to the proper operation of the vehicle, and there is not really any good "easy" way to stop this damage.

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    23. Re:Physical access by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Yup. Those were my words. You might do better if you took the time to comprehend them.

      You said, "All blargs are blorgs, and blorgs are bad. Therefore blargs are bad." I said, "No, not all blargs are blorgs, and when you buy a blarg you can choose if it is also a blorg." And then you just repeat yourself, "Infotainment can turn a blarg into a blorg and nobody is safe from infotainment."

      But I already pointed out that you can in fact choose. Bluetooth that is wired into the ECM is not something that lands on your windshield and now your car has it. It is a knowable thing that you can make decisions about.

      You're just failing an IQ test by arguing without comprehension of what the other people are saying.

  13. shutting off can devices != fatal flaw. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "This is the exact feature that our attack abuses. Our attack triggers this particular feature by inducing enough errors such that a targeted device or system on the CAN is made to go into the Bus Off state, and thus rendered inert/inoperable. This, in turn, can drastically affect the carâ(TM)s performance to the point that it becomes dangerous and even fatal, especially when essential systems like the airbag system or the antilock braking system are deactivated."

    Airbag systems should be entirely capable of operating on their own with out access to the can network. as for the anti-lock brakes not being available, well you shouldn't be driving a car if you do not know how to cope with such a malfunction (its called threshold braking)

    People need to remember that driving is a privilege and not a right. When one sits behind the wheel they are piloting a 3000+ lb projectile that has the capability of taking a life (passengers, pilot and exterior parties)

    In other words, be aware of your projectiles vulnerabilities as well as capabilities and plan future purchases accordingly.

  14. Very dangerous by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
    Most of us would just dismiss it as some hype, because it requires physical access to the cars.

    But plenty of people have access to cars of family members and friends. More than 75% of the homicide victims know their perps. Stranger on stranger murder rate is less than 25%.

    So one could sabotage a car of a family member in a manner very difficult to detect using a device plugged into the network, targets the brake system once the car speed is above 75 mph. An average dumb criminal, (all criminals are dumb) would lack the technical knowledge to do it. But now a days I see kits being sold on Amazon for USB sticks that will fry the mother board if plugged in. So it wouldn't be long before such devices make it to the market. Yes, eventually the police will catch one and then it would become standard protocol to look for this. But till then ...

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Very dangerous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So one could sabotage a car of a family member in a manner very difficult to detect using a device plugged into the network, targets the brake system once the car speed is above 75 mph.

      You nerds are stupid. You could accomplish all of these goals with doing things like, loosening lug nuts, putting slight cuts in brake lines, etc etc. But no, you fucktards think a computer is required to do all of this.

      *facepalm*

    2. Re:Very dangerous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So one could sabotage a car of a family member in a manner very difficult to detect using a device plugged into the network, targets the brake system once the car speed is above 75 mph.

      The brakes would be fine. Only the anti-lock brake system needs CAN. Why not just nick the brake line, like people have been doing for decades?

    3. Re:Very dangerous by bws111 · · Score: 1

      Huh? What do you mean 'targets the brake system'? If the brakes are in any way controlled by the CAN bus, and the default for any component of that failing is anything other than 'apply the brakes', then THAT is a much more serious concern, and much more likely to happen, than this theoretical hack.

      Now, it is possible for it to target the antilock brakes, because they do have sensors connected to the bus. But all a failing anitlock brake sensor causes (which is what the hack simulates) is the ANTILOCK function is disabled (along with a corresponding dashboard light telling you that). The actual BRAKES will still work just fine.

    4. Re:Very dangerous by Strider- · · Score: 1

      So one could sabotage a car of a family member in a manner very difficult to detect using a device plugged into the network, targets the brake system once the car speed is above 75 mph.

      There's a reason why brakes are designed as a failsafe design. Even if you took out the ABS controller, the brakes will continue to work. They are still a hydraulic connection between the master cylinder behind the pedal, and the brakes themselves in the wheel. Yes, in hybrid cars with regenerative braking, the first few inches of pedal travel just activate electronics, but once you go beyond that, you still have the tried and true hydraulic brakes.

      Are there other ways that you could sabotage a vehicle electronically? yes, you could interfere with the operation of the throttle (which is often drive-by-wire these days), occasionally the transmission, or whatever else, but the safety critical systems are generally designed to be fail-safe. You cause them to fail, they do so in a safe manner.

      --
      ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
    5. Re:Very dangerous by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

      >Most of us would just dismiss it as some hype, because it requires physical access to the cars.

      Yep. Because someone with physical access can do all sorts of things, including putting a tracker on it, cutting a brake line, or attaching a bomb.

      Nobody I know habitually checks their vehicles for those kinds of modifications before driving, and I doubt anyone's going to start checking their CAN bus integrity either.

    6. Re:Very dangerous by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      Most of us would just dismiss it as some hype, because it requires physical access to the cars.

      That's about the size of it.

      So one could sabotage a car of a family member in a manner very difficult to detect using a device plugged into the network, targets the brake system once the car speed is above 75 mph. An average dumb criminal, (all criminals are dumb) would lack the technical knowledge to do it. But now a days I see kits being sold on Amazon for USB sticks that will fry the mother board if plugged in. So it wouldn't be long before such devices make it to the market. Yes, eventually the police will catch one and then it would become standard protocol to look for this. But till then ...

      This and a zillion other things anyone who has physical access and is bored can dream up.

  15. Acccess can be obtained by DrYak · · Score: 1

    you must have a device physically connected to the CAN bus.

    Which *for now* means a laptop connected on the ODB port.

    But which could mean in the future hacking into some component of the car that is on the CAN bus it self (like the infotainment center, which needs to get information about fuel consumption and a few other stuff).
    Hack remotely (Bluetooth, some even support Wifi and 3G/4G) that component and then you get full access to the CAN bus.

    Expect *high range cars* to have two separate CAN bus and the infotainment only talking on the "public" CAN bus (and all the juicy bit staying on the "private" CAN bus).
    No risk to the critical component if a non critical (like the infotainment) gets hacked.

    Expect *cheap cars* to have the two buses badly segregate or even only one shared bus.
    These (badly designed) cars could get completely owned through the music system.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:Acccess can be obtained by Strider- · · Score: 1

      Even on high end cars, the (multiple) CAN busses are usually connected through a gateway device. On my 2006 Jetta, the Engine, Transmission, etc... are on a different bus than the convenience items (locks, windows, sunroof, stereo, etc...) However, I can still access them all through the ODB-II port. Ideally this gateway would act as a firewall to protect the critical systems, the question is how good is it?

      --
      ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
    2. Re:Acccess can be obtained by nhtshot · · Score: 1

      It's very good. It has rules in it for every packet that it can possibly see and where that packet is allowed to go.

      Spam error packets like these jackasses are using would be silently eaten by the gateway resulting in 0 ill effects to the car.

  16. Remote network access to car == REALLY BAD IDEA by al0ha · · Score: 1, Insightful

    So glad I did not go for the remote network accessibility option in my new car. Seemed like such a bad idea; yep!

    --
    Did you ever wake up in the morning, with a Zombie Woof behind your eyes? -- FZ
    1. Re:Remote network access to car == REALLY BAD IDEA by Carewolf · · Score: 2

      Yeah, but the CAN bus isn't remote. It is the local backbone between the various computers in a car. I had always been under the impression it was not secure it was assumed any hardware on it was trusted.

    2. Re:Remote network access to car == REALLY BAD IDEA by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Except the "OnStar" or equiv. is also connected to the CAN bus. That's the remote connection.

  17. So better than the Hollywood Land brake line cut? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you think Colombo could solve this? Will he? Can he?

  18. Toyota and the phantom gas pedal signal by BenJeremy · · Score: 1

    Stuck CAN bus signal. From what I've gathered, my first guess when it first hit the news turned out to be the actual problem.

    I was involved in writing calibration, diagnostic and simulation tools for GM and their suppliers in the late 90s and early 00s, I saw this problem several times on the low-speed bus, but that wasn't as critical (well, your instrument panel or radio might go wonky, but critical components run a high speed bus)

  19. More effective attacks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Having local access to the car, hitting it with an ordinary rock can cause all kinds of systems to malfunction. It's far more effective exploit than CAN denial of service. The CAN cable attached to various system can also be unplugged by an attacker with local access.

    1. Re:More effective attacks by Kiuas · · Score: 1

      Having local access to the car, hitting it with an ordinary rock can cause all kinds of systems to malfunction. It's far more effective exploit than CAN denial of service.

      It depends on what the goal of the attacker is. If your goal is simply to destroy the vehicle or make it immobile, then sure a sledgehammer and a knife will do a better and faster job if you have physical access to the car.

      If your goal is to for example assassinate someone and make it look like an accident, then it may be a different story. Plus the main troublesome thing about this is not the local access variety, but the fact that it's possible in theory to exploit this remotely if the car is connected to the internet.

      Sure I agree, chances are slim that this will happen to anyone, but the fact that we have a hypothetical vector for disabling say, brakes and/or the airbag remotely if the software on the car is buggy or just badly written is a point of concern. Not panic, or a reason to swtich back to horses, but something the industry should look to seriously fix.

      --
      "It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
    2. Re:More effective attacks by bws111 · · Score: 1

      There is no hypothetical vector for disabling the brakes. There is a hypothetical vector for turning off the anti-lock function. Big deal.

      When these sensors fail (which is what this hypothetical attack simulates), the computer turns off the affected system and lights the malfunction lamp. That is all that happens.

      A failed airbag system does not cause you to crash, it just makes it more dangerous if you DO crash.

      Which do you think is more likely to happen: some wiring gets corroded and the computer starts getting bad data about your ABS, or some scary hacker remotely sending bad data about your ABS? The first is probably thousands of times more likely to occur, so the systems should be designed to handle that, which they are.

  20. In other words... by vanyel · · Score: 1

    ...if you jam a network, it will stop working. Whoever figures out how to avoid that will win a Nobel. And a position of headmaster at Hogwarts.

  21. Same manufacturers for both ends of the market by Alok · · Score: 1

    Its very unlikely the cheap cars will only have 1 network or that it will be segregrated in a different way (for good or bad) than the higher end models. Almost all car manufacturers address nearly the entire spectrum from entry level to super luxury, and tend to favor standardization to control R&D and maintenance costs. The chief differences between 'high end' and 'cheap' are the quality of materials used for upholstery etc., engine performance, more expensive alternatives of some components, space age materials etc. ... all of which are hardware with actual unavoidable cost for it. But the basic nuts & bolts, and I assume the ECM as well, doesn't really vary between models.

    1. Re:Same manufacturers for both ends of the market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... space age materials etc. ...

      Ah yes, "space age" So, from the 1960's then? Lol.
      My favorite phrase ever, space age.

  22. It's called a human driver. by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

    Yes, there are also several other, less dangerous flaws involving frame droppage, but the human driver is the most dangerous, unpatchable flaw in modern vehicles.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:It's called a human driver. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Interestingly, in other news that might be patched soon by self-driving cars. And civilians in many cases might eventually be limited to small, light vehicles for manual control.

  23. Re: Great job NERDS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This piece is füll of handwaving Bull Excrement. Forget it.

  24. FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fake news. Stop giving these armchair researchers credibility. Please link to the real research and not the opinion pieces.

    This so call nerd needs to be put in his place because he completely misses the mark. There is limited commonality between vehicle types. You must know what you are talking to mess with it. You must have the tools to mess with it. Talk with an actual automotive engineer sometime.

  25. Re:So better than the Hollywood Land brake line cu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unpatchable 'Flaw' Affects Most of Peter Falk's Eye

    (he opted for glass)

  26. Missed Opportunity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Forward-looking Threat Research (FTR) team

    That should be FLTR—a.k.a. FLoaTeR!

  27. Re:Great job NERDS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why would someone jam the throttle open on my car, and disable the air bags on yours? Wouldn't an alleged attacker want to potentially do both to the same car?

    By the way, many of my coworkers actually are automotive engineers. And you are posting a knee-jerk reaction to a non story. Good work on that.

  28. Michael Hastings was my wake-up call to this tech. by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

    He was murdered as retribution for General McChrystal, who he had written an expose on and gotten him fired. He was about to do another big one, but instead his car was made after the year 2000, like most on the road today, and was controllable. I learned about the CAN network, reading about his death, years ago.

    --
    I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
  29. Rice-A-Roni by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is common for the Honda Civic / Mazda Speed 3 crowd that you see with ridiculously cambered wheels(stance) and green underglow LED's.

  30. Another one? by Carewolf · · Score: 1

    If someone has access to the CAN bus, you are already pwned. It is not much of a flaw, except don't let hostile applications or hardware have direct access to the CAN bus. This is like saying PCs have a flaw, because something plugged in the PCIe bus can do bad things.

    1. Re:Another one? by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      But it IS an unpatchable flat that affects most of todays modern computers!

      Simply connecting a device to the PCIe bus exposes your entire memory contents!

      All you need to do to remotely access that is find a vulnerability in the kernel!

  31. Sorry, No by OYAHHH · · Score: 1

    There is no such things as an unfixable flaw in a car. It all has to do with how much money you have and how much of it you are willing to spend to fix the issue.

    --
    Caution: Contents under pressure
  32. But why would you do this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because I CAN.

  33. Re:Great job NERDS by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    "remote" only in the sense that he might be clinging to your undercarriage instead of crouching down under the driver seat.

    Or way over on the passenger side floor, under the dash, where the CAN bus connects to the control computer(s).

  34. Cars don't need a networked ECU. by dicobalt · · Score: 2

    Stop it, just stop. Stop connecting networked systems to the ECU, it's fuggin stupid. Stop being stupid.

  35. What's the worst that could happen? by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    I have a car with a CAN network (two networks actually, with the gauge cluster acting as a gateway between the fast and slow networks)

    The only thing the ABS control use uses the CAN bus for is to illuminate the warning lights on the gauge cluster.
    The control unit is directly connected to the wheel speed sensors and valves.

    The engine ECU and transmission ECU are actually the same thing, so there is no issue with that. If it wasn't auto-transmissions go in to limp home mode if they detect failure and still work.

    It has drive-by-wire, but the actuator and sensor are directly connected to the main ECU. No CAN bus needed.

    They could disable stability control and ABS. They can't disable the brakes. The individual wheel sensors are connected directly to the control unit, so you couldn't trick it into pulsing or applying the brakes by sending it incorrect wheel speed data. The steering angle and yaw rate sensors are also directly connected to it, so no tricking it into thinking the car isn't going where the front wheels are pointing.

    They could stop me using cruise control

    They could turn my headlights on and off (providing I have the switch in "auto")

    They could lock/unlock the car and play with the windows if they were connected to the low-speed bus (I doubt the gauge cluster forwards those messages from the high speed bus. It doesn't do everything, since it's going from 500kbit to 33kbit) and when the car is off, the high speed bus is inactive.
    If they're on the low speed bus they could turn the AC fan/compressor on and off. The indicators too. Maybe the windscreen wipers

    They could show garbage data on the nav unit trip computer screen

    They could make the gauge cluster show incorrect data

    I doubt there is much else they could do. If any of the above systems go offline, a warning light is going to appear on the gauge cluster.

  36. I Drive a 1974 Chrysler Cordoba, So No Worries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It burns the cheapest possible gas and most of the oil I put in it too which I usually also get used because if it's going to burn the oil with the gas it's damn well going to burn the cheap stuff. On the plus side, there's no electronics to hack in this vehicle. Everything is pure analog circuits or mechanical and it's such an ugly car that nobody can be bothered to steal it either. Had the thing since high school and it's a tank that just keeps rolling. American cars used to last and last, not like the shit they build today.

    1. Re:I Drive a 1974 Chrysler Cordoba, So No Worries by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Fill up the oil and check the gas once in a while, yeah, I had a car like that, too...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:I Drive a 1974 Chrysler Cordoba, So No Worries by Guybrush_T · · Score: 1

      Yep. And they used to pollute like hell as well, and kill every person in the car in case of an accident, not like the shit they build today. But yeah, unlike Japanese, electronics made the US cars much less reliable.

    3. Re:I Drive a 1974 Chrysler Cordoba, So No Worries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does it have "rich, Corinthian leather"?

      Smooth, very smooth!

  37. A few other options by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

    There are a few older and more popular options for attackers with local access to disable your brakes. The most popular uses a knife.

    Remotely? Well, connecting a local control bus to the internet certainly is a flaw.

  38. FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is all FUD. It's like saying that I didn't know that if I have physical access to the vehicle that I could cut the fuel line or put 1000v though any wiring in the vehicle. Why is this any different?
    Yes I could plug a device into the obd port and remotely control it but I choose to do that. That device could discharge 1000v if I don't trust it! Don't plug a device in you don't trust - it's that simple. Just like you don't leave your keys lying around.

  39. CAN was not designed with security in mind by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    CAN is not a secure bus. And it was never meant to be one. CAN, when it was invented, was to be a lightweight bus system that connects internal car systems. And as such it works perfectly. At its conception, there was neither any kind of provision to make it "user space safe" nor was any form of wireless connection to it foreseen.

    And if you use it as such it is a great bus system and does its job. Of course if you let marketing run amok, well, you get what you get when you let marketing amok. I highly doubt that any engineer said it would be a really splendid idea to make user systems part of the mission critical CAN bus (read: The one that any of the car's important systems listen to) or to allow wireless connections to it.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  40. A modern car is a datacenter by DrYak · · Score: 1

    Its very unlikely the cheap cars will only have 1 network or that it will be segregrated in a different way (for good or bad) than the higher end models. Almost all car manufacturers {...} tend to favor standardization to control R&D and maintenance costs.

    The idea isn't a manufacturer design separately a secure and a non secure car computer.

    Modern cars are far from having a single computer inside. They litterally have dozens of elements with embed CPUs.
    The metaphor of a car being "a datacenter on wheels" used by Musk isn't far off.

    This will lead to several results :
    - a car manufacturer is seldom going to design from the ground up every single element.
    - except lots of them to be either subcontracted or even off-the-shelf component
    - To lower the cost of production of a car model, except the manufacturer to buy cheaper elements.

    More precisely :
    - as on any other network of computer nodes, the security will require a box acting a router/firewall.
    - you can expect that such a router is going to cost quite a bit, just because of all the various certifications it needs to be used in a car.

    You can expect some manufacturer deciding to cut corners and completely forgo the router. Why add a device that costs a few percent of the total price of the car and doesn't provide something immediately visible at the autodealer shop ?

    Unless it's something that is mandate by government or considered standard (and both in enough country that it makes more sense to put it as a standard feature in all cars instead of going on a per market availability), you know manufacturer will try to get away without it.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  41. Not me!! 1999 Honda Accord by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I DO NOT have a "modern" car so Hey Nana Boo-boo, stick you're head in Doo-Doo!

    (quickly scans linked article... yeah I know, who does that anymore?)

    FTFA: "...Bosch developed the CAN protocol in 1983, and it became an ISO standard in 1993."

    OH NOES!!!!!

  42. A lot of the "insightful" commenters don't get it by ericfitz · · Score: 1

    I see a bunch of insightful comments to the effect that "mitigating DoS is a good thing", etc., and decrying infosec folks because of crying wolf, not balancing security with other factors, not understanding engineering, etc. Your car likely has a network-accessible device on your CAN-BUS. Got bluetooth in your car stereo? Also got nav system or steering wheel controls for the stereo? Guess what?

    If an attacker compromises a system on your car that is connected to your CAN-BUS, then they might be able to co-opt that system into doing nasty things on your CAN-BUS. Your entertainment system probably has the biggest wireless attack surface, but more and more frequently CAN-BUS is externally accessible, as through your side mirrors, likely the case if you have mirrors that tilt in reverse, etc.

    And, these aren't even theoretical vulnerabilities; entertainment system remote exploit has already been demonstrated to disable brakes, etc.:
    https://www.wired.com/2015/07/...