Oracle Now Wants To Give Java EE to an Open Source Foundation (infoworld.com)

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Oracle Now Wants To Give Java EE to an Open Source Foundation (infoworld.com)

Posted by EditorDavid on Saturday August 19, 2017 @05:34AM from the runtime dept.

An anonymous reader quotes InfoWorld: Oracle wants to end its leadership in the development of enterprise Java and is looking for an open source foundation to take on the role. The company said Thursday that the upcoming Java EE (Enterprise Edition) 8 presents an opportunity to rethink how the platform is developed. Although development is done via open source with community participation, the current Oracle-led process is not seen as agile, flexible, or open enough. "We believe that moving Java EE technologies to an open source foundation may be the right next step, to adopt more agile processes, implement more flexible licensing and change the governance process," Oracle said in a statement...

Despite its desire to retreat from Java EE leadership, Oracle said it plans to continue participating in the evolution of Java EE technologies. "But we believe a more open process, that is not dependent on a single vendor as platform lead, will encourage greater participation and innovation, and will be in best interests of the community"... Oracle's goals for offloading Java EE would have Oracle not lead the project as it still effectively does with Java SE.
Red Hat's senior principal product manager called this "a very positive move," while Eclipse's executive director said that moving Java EE to a vendor-neutral open source foundation "would be great for both the platform and the community," adding "If asked to so, the Eclipse Foundation would be pleased to serve as the host organization."

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Translation by darkain · 2017-08-19 05:35 · Score: 5, Insightful

"We can't milk this for licensing money anymore, so we no longer want to invest in it"
1. Re:Translation by Freischutz · 2017-08-19 05:40 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  "We can't milk this for licensing money anymore, so we no longer want to invest in it"
  "Yay, if Oracle hands Java EE over to a FOSS foundation we can finally fix all the things that are wrong with Java and that we've been bitching about Oracle being unwilling to fix for years."
2. Re: Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 06:03 · Score: 0
  
  With a name like Freischutz, of course he is. His kind will not be allowed to be racist here ANYMORE!!!
3. Re: Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 06:10 · Score: 0
  
  They could just abandon it then. Even though they win some PR points this way, they could have just abandoned it so that cynics like you would have nothing to say. Because of you negativists soon there will not even be a PR benefit of doing something good. Translation == reduced number of nice things we can have.
4. Re:Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 06:15 · Score: 0
  
  ...finally fix all the things that are wrong with Java...
  Java EE is a strange beast. It's the part of Java that you would use if you wanted to put together a website to sell teddy bears online.
  Or, more generally, it allows you create a website serves as a custom interface to a set of spreadsheets - well, specifically an interface to a relational database. But a relational database is fundamentally a set of spreadsheets that can be edited my multiple users at the same time - but where you need to make changes to these "spreadsheets" via a command line (SQL commands) or by rolling your own custom interface.
  Anyway, the kinds of people who are interested in the software tools to make a commercial website are a weird mix of naive and idealistic open source advocates and cynical corporate cogs looking to do their time, collect their paycheck, and go home to whatever is left of their families.
  So some aspects of Java EE were inspired by idealistically chasing the programming fads of the day while other aspects were inspired by stifling corporate bureaucracy. In short, a lot of the design of Java EE is in crazy "what were they smoking" territory rather than clean simple and sensible.
  But, over the years, it has matured a bit - like an old hippy who did some time on a commune and then went corporate and is now just trying to survive another day without a major catastrophe.
5. Re:Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 06:16 · Score: 1
  
  Will they stop suing Google for using the API?
6. Re:Translation by rholtzjr · 2017-08-19 06:21 · Score: 1
  
  It was not for their lack of trying. Heck they even went after Google for their use in Android, but GPL prevailed on that one.
7. Re:Translation by angel'o'sphere · 2017-08-19 06:29 · Score: 1
  
  What should the GPL have to do with the Oracle / Google fight over Android?
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
8. Re:Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 06:30 · Score: 0
  
  When was the last time you cracked a smile?
9. Re:Translation by rholtzjr · 2017-08-19 06:35 · Score: 1
  
  Oh stop it already. Most people are already tired of people subverting non-political posts.
10. Re:Translation by rholtzjr · 2017-08-19 06:45 · Score: 2
  
  "Fair use" once Java was released under GPL(2007). Appeals court agreed.. However Oracle filed another appeal, so it seems that is not over yet.
11. Re:Translation by jhol13 · 2017-08-19 06:52 · Score: 1
  
  No.
  Translation: Too litlle too late. Java died with generics. Every other (recent) language is going away, Perl, Python, Ruby, ...
12. Re: Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 07:05 · Score: 0
  
  Spring is killing Jave EE.
13. Re:Translation by angel'o'sphere · 2017-08-19 07:10 · Score: 1
  
  Fair use, especially reimplementing an API, has nothing to do with the GPL.
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
14. Re:Translation by rholtzjr · 2017-08-19 07:56 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  And yes, I understand that this eventually became Java API vs just Java (which in my opinion was a "ooops we want a do over" by Oracle AFTER they saw Android take off). The first judge I believe had it right in the first place. And he expressed his concerns (excerpt):
  
  Each command calls into action a pre-assigned function. The overall name tree, of course, has creative elements but it is also a precise command structure — a utilitarian and functional set of symbols, each to carry out a pre-assigned function. This command structure is a system or method of operation under Section 102(b) of the Copyright Act and, therefore, cannot be copyrighted. Duplication of the command structure is necessary for interoperability.
15. Re:Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 08:07 · Score: 0
  
  Finally we can convert all of it to RUST and end the menace that is Java! We can finally convert all the functions into non-offensive, non-sexist and non-racist terms. This is exciting news for me and all my other Social Justice Warrior brothers and sisters!
16. Re:Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 09:32 · Score: 0
  
  More accurately: "We want to donate the code to a charity and get a tax receipt for $100 billion."
17. Re:Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 10:18 · Score: 0
  
  ...finally fix all the things that are wrong with Java...
  Java EE is a strange beast. It's the part of Java that you would use if you wanted to put together a website to sell teddy bears online.
  Or, more generally, it allows you create a website serves as a custom interface to a set of spreadsheets - well, specifically an interface to a relational database. But a relational database is fundamentally a set of spreadsheets that can be edited my multiple users at the same time - but where you need to make changes to these "spreadsheets" via a command line (SQL commands) or by rolling your own custom interface.
  I avoided SQL for most of my programming career so far, yet I think that was a mistake. I'm probably mid career, so plenty of time to use it now. I find that for a lot of tasks it allows you to get things done in a fairly generic manner, and despite how non standard SQL really is, still allows a certain amount of portability for that part of it that makes sense to do in SQL. I worked on a web site using angular 2 last year. I didn't set it up, but the microsoft stack version of it works reasonably well, though is still somewhat complex. I wonder what the java equivalent would be like. (The microsoft version had C# for backend features.)
  The trick is you really need to spend some time to start thinking in SQL terms. Most other programming languages read more or less the same way, but it took me some time to get used to reading and writing SQL, and i'm admittedly not an expert yet. The really cool thing is at least with an in memory database like java's H2, performance can be very good. I think I can insert around a million records in around a minute and then do whatever I need to with them in short order. (Later versions were hoped to connect directly to a full DB, so you could skip the insert phase.)
  At a comparison, my team leader does something similar with pure C++ and spends like 30 minutes at. I suppose I might be able to improve on that if I really tried, but I'd rather have a relatively simple SQL script that some Rube Goldburg mess. I'd also rather have a different team leader, but I'm working on that. (He is quite sure that all the complex data manipulation should be done in C++, with completely separate executables for every step, despite how much complexity that adds and how much duplicated code is required.)
18. Re:Translation by rholtzjr · 2017-08-19 10:20 · Score: 1
  
  The fair use direction was just what Oracle tried under the Copyright Act because the Patent path was denied when Sun released to GPL. I believe the appeals court got it wrong in 2013 as section 102(a) does not have any reference to programming language and it does NOT fall into the categories listed (methinks Oracle found a judge to fudge the interpretation), so 102(b) should have applied.
19. Re: Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 10:51 · Score: 0
  
  Despite how non standard it is? Allow me to correct you, SQL *is* a standard, with as many non standard variations as there are implementations. Using standard SQL, you can still get a lot done but won't be able to take advantage of the latest features and performance enhancements. Look at postgresql jsonb type for example.
  But you are right that SQL is hard to learn. I think it's because it tries too hard to sound like natural language, so anything but the simplest queries gets ugly fast.
  Also it's inconvenient for programmers to put together that query statement. A real API would have been better.
20. Re: Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 11:13 · Score: 0
  
  Much the same way everyone should abandon C# or for that matter every language developed so far. After all, they all suck.
21. Re:Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 11:21 · Score: 0
  
  The thing that is wrong with Java is that it exists. Kill that shit and dump it right next to the corpses of Flash and Windows Phone.
22. Re: Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 11:28 · Score: 0
  
  Despite how non standard it is? Allow me to correct you, SQL *is* a standard, with as many non standard variations as there are implementations. Using standard SQL, you can still get a lot done but won't be able to take advantage of the latest features and performance enhancements.
  I'm no expert on databases, but my usual performance enhancement is to first profile a little as you go, to see if any queries are just crazy. Beyond that I just add indexes on most things that end up getting used in non trivial joins. I've seriously considered taking some serial number type data that isn't a simple number and making it a simple number with a mapping to a table with the original values, just to try to get some additional performance for joins, but so far I have resisted. It seems to be getting close to micro-optimization theater. I may try it at some point to see if the benefit is worth it, or if there is even a benefit. String hashing must have some kind of cost.
  I've used lately H2, Sqlite, and Microsoft's. The syntax varies a little here and there for things. For instance SQLite allows you to use an aggregate function without a group by. H2 says that doesn't make sense, since it is unclear what your aggregate function is doing. I tend to agree that it is better for the code to force you not to do questionable things. Things like digging through the databases configuration tables to find table names, column names, etc, is slightly different and such. I'm not complaining. One just deals with it, though if there is a standard, I'd definitely like to use it... Some things may be abstracted behind an interface, such as the aforementioned grabbing column names. Some just might require minor editing if you change databases. It is all doable and your right for the most part you try to stay with the more standard stuff when you can.
  One feature in H2 I love is the ability to use java code, either written as part of your SQL or elsewhere. I'm a bit wary about relying on it needlessly, yet it is certainly useful. For instance I can do a call like CALL LogThis('select column1, column2 from someview', 'Something happened column1=%s, column2=%s'); and put that right in a script. That way when the script is called the results from that temporary view are added to the current output window/logfile/whatever since the alias for LogThis has whatever is needed to make that work. Apparently other databases have other options, such as python and such. I think the only limitation there is one of reasonableness. If you can follow the SQL script without going to read what is in the alias too often then it works.
23. Re:Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 13:04 · Score: 0
  
  I mean, you're probably right, but I'm very happy they are transfering it to the community in a well thought out and responsible manner. Had they been douchebags they could have just slapped a 404 on it.
24. Re:Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 14:26 · Score: 0
  
  it's all the mockingbirds, paid government shitposters
25. Re: Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 15:37 · Score: 0
  
  Which government though?
26. Re:Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 18:38 · Score: 0
  
  I can't wait until someone cites this obvious case of RW butthurt as evidence that SJWs really police everyone's opinions based on extensio ad absurdum
27. Re: Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 19:44 · Score: 0
  
  If this is the thought that occurs to you in a non-political discussion about Java, you have problems.
28. Re: Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 23:39 · Score: 0
  
  SQL is not a programming language. It is a query language.
  Is it Turing-complete? I don't know and I don't care. The point is that it is highly specialized, and should be used only when it fits the problem at hand.
29. Re: Translation by eric_harris_76 · 2017-08-20 04:51 · Score: 1
  
  "Winter is coming."
  A GoT viewer might be able to tell me if this is funny. All I know about GoT I learned from memes.
  
  --
  There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
30. Re:Translation by angel'o'sphere · 2017-08-20 05:30 · Score: 1
  
  Answered to the wrong post?
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
31. Re:Translation by rholtzjr · 2017-08-20 05:48 · Score: 1
  
  Addition to the previous post
32. Re:Translation by angel'o'sphere · 2017-08-20 06:00 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, got it meanwhile :)
  I was reading backward aka in timely order.
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
33. Re:Translation by rholtzjr · 2017-08-20 07:12 · Score: 1
  
  Yea, sorry, I screwed up that post with the method in which I submitted.
34. Re:Translation by TechnoJoe · 2017-08-20 09:24 · Score: 1
  
  This should be modded funny, not insightful.
35. Re: Translation by Rujiel · 2017-08-20 10:38 · Score: 1
  
  So java died nearly ten years ago.. before android even took off. Yeah, keep telling yourself that
36. Re:Translation by ClickOnThis · 2017-08-20 10:57 · Score: 1
  
  Will they stop suing Google for using the API?
  Maybe Oracle should have sold Java EE to SCO.
  [*ducks*]
  
  --
  If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
37. Re: Translation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-20 21:24 · Score: 0
  
  I've seriously considered taking some serial number type data that isn't a simple number and making it a simple number with a mapping to a table with the original values, just to try to get some additional performance for joins, but so far I have resisted. It seems to be getting close to micro-optimization theater. I may try it at some point to see if the benefit is worth it, or if there is even a benefit. String hashing must have some kind of cost.
  Would hardware-based hashing be a simple solution to that? e.g. there are sha256 and sha1 instructions in recent CPUs.
38. Re: Translation by slashdotwannabe · 2017-08-23 07:58 · Score: 1
  
  Winter came a LONG time ago and the White Walkers fucked JEE in the eyehole. It ain't a hippy; it's a shambling mound.
  
  --
  This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
A good move by Martin+S. · 2017-08-19 05:46 · Score: 2

This is good for Java and good for Oracle.
Java has become mired in bureaucracy under Oracle.
Java is not a core produce for Oracle, but a cost.
1. Re:A good move by terjeber · 2017-08-20 01:53 · Score: 1
  
  Java has become mired in bureaucracy under Oracle.
  I am not sure going FOSS will help. There are so many parties invested in Java these days, that even if going FOSS, and in order not to explode into a thousand irrelevant forks, Java will remain mired in bureaucracy. It wasn't Oracle that created the bureaucracy, that was a huge millstone around Java's neck way back when Sun owned it.
Fix the installer by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 05:59 · Score: 2, Insightful

At last the runtime isntaller can stop trying to mess with my browser settings and anoying me with popups to do an update?
1. Re:Fix the installer by arth1 · 2017-08-19 06:55 · Score: 1
  
  At last the runtime isntaller can stop trying to mess with my browser settings and anoying me with popups to do an update?
  This is Java EE (Enterprise Edition), not the Java SE runtime that integrates with your web browser. Many if not most machines that run Java EE won't have a display or a web browser.
2. Re:Fix the installer by cowwoc2001 · 2017-08-19 09:56 · Score: 1
  
  Java EE does not have an installer. You're thinking of Java SE.
Finally by f00zbll · 2017-08-19 06:05 · Score: 1

I really hope Oracle hands off Java to Eclipse or Apache. That would make me happy.
1. Re:Finally by arth1 · 2017-08-19 07:02 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Apache Foundation and Red Hat seem to be the two entities that may have enough momentum to absorb something this big. Eclipse would be nice, but can they grow that much that quickly without hurting their core?
  Anyhow, beware of Ellisons bearing gifts.
2. Re:Finally by TechyImmigrant · 2017-08-19 09:16 · Score: 1
  
  Apache Foundation and Red Hat seem to be the two entities that may have enough momentum to absorb something this big. Eclipse would be nice, but can they grow that much that quickly without hurting their core?
  Anyhow, beware of Ellisons bearing gifts.
  Not necessary. Just throw it up on GitHub and open an issue torrent.
  
  --
  I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
So sad... by avandesande · 2017-08-19 06:08 · Score: 1

Where will I get my yahoo toolbar for my browser?

--
love is just extroverted narcissism
1. Re:So sad... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 06:36 · Score: 0
  
  You don't update Flash any more ?
  Seriously, how could Oracle or Adobe pretend to be serious companies when they bundled in those pathetic begging letters with their software updates ( that you had to download due to the insecure previous versions ) ?
2. Re:So sad... by Tablizer · 2017-08-19 16:41 · Score: 1
  
  Where will I get my yahoo toolbar for my browser?
  The Nigerian Prince still offers it. Just keep an eye on your inbox for an announcement.
  
  --
  Table-ized A.I.
Extend & Embrace version? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 06:09 · Score: 0

nT
Give it to Mozilla by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 06:13 · Score: 2, Funny

Give it to Mozilla, it's where open source software goes to die.
1. Re:Give it to Mozilla by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-20 00:28 · Score: 0
  
  Give it to Mozilla, it's where open source software goes to die.
  Funny, I always got the impression that Oracle was the place where open source software goes to die.
Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 06:17 · Score: 0

How does this even make sense without Java SE?
They want a "more open process"? by fustakrakich · 2017-08-19 06:18 · Score: 1

Put it in the public domain. Can't get much more open than that.
And what is an "Open Source Foudation"? Sound pretty weaselly to me. A tax dodge perhaps?

--
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
1. Re:They want a "more open process"? by ClickOnThis · 2017-08-19 09:07 · Score: 1
  
  Put it in the public domain. Can't get much more open than that.
  Until someone forks an incompatible version, and hides the changes. The GPL is designed to keep that from happening.
  Be careful when you wish for something to be put in the public domain. Even though the forked binary blobs will eventually be public domain, there is no guarantee that the source ever will be.
  
  --
  If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
Looks like they won by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 06:18 · Score: 1

I remember reading in a comment here that Eclipse was named after the intent to blot out the Sun (Microsystems). Looks like they'll have that opportunity.
1. Re:Looks like they won by ClickOnThis · 2017-08-19 09:15 · Score: 1
  
  I remember reading in a comment here that Eclipse was named after the intent to blot out the Sun (Microsystems). Looks like they'll have that opportunity.
  I think the market eclipsed Sun before Eclipse did. But I agree with your point.
  And in light of this, I propose that we declare Monday, August 21, 2017 to be Open-Source Java Day. Because Eclipse.
  
  --
  If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
It's a trap by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 06:24 · Score: 0

Get an axe.
not the big problem with java by iggymanz · 2017-08-19 06:30 · Score: 1

minor version number changes breaking API so apps no longer worked, that's the big problem Java EE under Oracle has. Incidentally, it's now also the problem the Oracle DBMS has had since version 10.x
That would open a oath to iOs by angel'o'sphere · 2017-08-19 06:38 · Score: 1

I hungry for an JBC interpreter on iOS since ages.
We have ahead of time compilers like Avian, but an interpreter would allow to work more with reflection, bytecode morphing, runtime code generation, integration of languages like Groovy, useable for scripting the main application.
Something like HyperCard, runnning in a JVM with Groovy as scripting language ...

--
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Depends on the license by BarbaraHudson · 2017-08-19 07:01 · Score: 1

If Oracle wants to kill it off, just give it to some organization that requires all future contributions to be licensed under the GPL without a classpath exception. Say goodbye to development of commercial Java software like the original Minecraft.

--
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
1. Re:Depends on the license by iggymanz · 2017-08-19 07:06 · Score: 1
  
  and the BSD license would allow the original minecraft.
2. Re:Depends on the license by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 08:00 · Score: 0
  
  That goes against all Oracle's spirit and core values.
3. Re:Depends on the license by BarbaraHudson · 2017-08-19 08:25 · Score: 1
  
  BSD - truly free as in freedom.
  
  --
  "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
4. Re:Depends on the license by ClickOnThis · 2017-08-19 09:19 · Score: 1
  
  BSD - truly free as in freedom.
  Until someone forks an incompatible version and hides the changes. Then you can't see the source of the software running on your system. No more freedom for you.
  You can't have true freedom without giving up a little of it. The GPL is a reasonable compromise.
  
  --
  If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
5. Re:Depends on the license by drinkypoo · 2017-08-19 09:40 · Score: 1
  
  BSD - truly free as in freedom.
  BSD, freer for developers, less free for users. GPL, less free for developers, freer for users. Computers exist to serve users, not the other way around. That's why Linux is more popular than BSD, today, even though BSD started with a massive lead.
  
  --
  "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
6. Re:Depends on the license by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 10:14 · Score: 1
  
  This is a silly talking point. Users and developers are not completely separate entities, and even if they were, that wouldn't explain why the GPL is popular, since it is developers who choose the license. GPL vs BSD choice is simply developer preference vs. developer preference.
  BSD is definitely the freer licence, and GPL definitely promotes a goal a significant number of developers like more. Don't pretend otherwise.
7. Re:Depends on the license by drinkypoo · 2017-08-19 10:26 · Score: 1
  
  This is a silly talking point. Users and developers are not completely separate entities, and even if they were, that wouldn't explain why the GPL is popular, since it is developers who choose the license.
  Many of the developers who made Linux great have explicitly stated that they chose to contribute to Linux specifically because of the license, and that it preserves freedom for other users. Don't be disingenuous. That only impresses idiots.
  
  --
  "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
8. Re:Depends on the license by BarbaraHudson · 2017-08-19 10:34 · Score: 1
  
  Wrong - you're completely free to use the non-forked version. Forks are just that - forks. The original, under the original license, still continues to exist.
  And it should be the developer's choice as to what they feel is a reasonable compromise - not the user. The user is always free - completely free - to vote with their feet / dollars. If they make something that's closed source that people feel is worth the price, how has anyone's freedom been compromised?
  
  --
  "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
9. Re:Depends on the license by BarbaraHudson · 2017-08-19 10:48 · Score: 1
  
  And what does that have to do with the fact that the BSD license is, in absolute terms, freer? There's nothing in it that restricts developers from releasing their source code, same as the GPL. The freedom to choose the license should be up to the developer. The freedom to use the product should be up to the user.
  The GPL imposes requirements on both the developer and the user that don't exist with the BSD license. Developers must be able to supply source for any program they distribute, and users who want to distribute copies of the "free GPL" license are similarly required to distribute source on demand to anyone they distribute to.
  So what happens when the gpl app you distributed when the source is lost or otherwise not available (web site goes dark, developer dies, etc)? You're still on the hook to distribute the source, even though you were assuming it would always be available for download from the developer. All of a sudden you're legally liable for breech of contract and breech of license. If the recipient had used it because they understood that the source would be available if required (say, for customization or bug fixes) and now they can't, you're legally on the hook for all their losses.
  
  --
  "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
10. Re:Depends on the license by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 10:49 · Score: 0
  
  BSD - truly free as in freedom.
  BSD, freer for developers, less free for users. GPL, less free for developers, freer for users. Computers exist to serve users, not the other way around. That's why Linux is more popular than BSD, today, even though BSD started with a massive lead.
  Bull. Linus himself said that if 386BSD was under BSD in 1991, Linux wouldn't have happened at all. Linux managed to gain a foothold because BSD was involved in legal battle with AT&T and couldn't publish their code, not because of happy-unicorn-magic of GPL. If you want to see a real battle between two projects where the licence is at issue just look at how LLVM is pushing GCC out of relevance (does GCC development consist of anything other than backporting improvements from LLVM nowdays?).
11. Re:Depends on the license by drinkypoo · 2017-08-19 10:57 · Score: 1
  
  And what does that have to do with the fact that the BSD license is, in absolute terms, freer?
  It is absolutely a freer license, in practice, for developers who are making use of the code. It is absolutely a less free license, in practice, for users who would like to benefit from open source. They are less likely to get the code actually used in their devices if it is BSD-licensed. It absolutely depends on your point of view, and if your point of view is not that of the users, then your point of view is a minority one.
  
  The GPL imposes requirements on both the developer and the user that don't exist with the BSD license.
  That's false. Users do not have to do anything to comply with the GPL unless they are distributing the program to other users. At that point they get into a position where they may have to provide source code to them if asked, or at least make a good-faith effort to do so. But then they are not merely users, they are distributors. That's not a normal use case.
  
  So what happens when the gpl app you distributed when the source is lost or otherwise not available (web site goes dark, developer dies, etc)? You're still on the hook to distribute the source, even though you were assuming it would always be available for download from the developer.
  If you're actually concerned about that (and it is not likely a realistic concern, but put that aside for now) then it's easy enough to simply download the sources at the same time that you download the binaries. The terms of the license are not arduous, nor difficult to comply with.
  
  If the recipient had used it because they understood that the source would be available if required (say, for customization or bug fixes) and now they can't, you're legally on the hook for all their losses.
  Then it's really not a good idea to set that expectation without preparing to fulfill that requirement. Absent a distribution license, you simply don't have the right to distribute a program based on BSD code; if the "author" doesn't give you the sources, you not only can't reproduce the program, but you also lack the right to redistribute the binaries (absent some other distribution license which permits you to do so.) But the GPL provides a distribution license which you can reasonably fulfill at an extremely minor cost. The program has to be GPL-licensed, and if they distribute it to you they have to give you the source as well, which they can't stop you from distributing. I'm failing to see how that is not more freedom (again, for the user) than the BSD license. Now, nothing in the BSD license precludes you also granting a binary distribution license, but then, if you actually own the copyright then nothing prevents you from dual-licensing your GPL software, either.
  TL;DR: The BSD is the freer license for the developer, but the GPL is freer for the user. In the case where the developer is the user, the developer is more likely to get the source code in the first place if the code is GPL, which in turn increases their freedom, meaning that the GPL is in practice freer for more people more of the time even if the BSD is the freer license in a vacuum — where we don't live.
  
  --
  "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
12. Re:Depends on the license by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 11:14 · Score: 0
  
  This is a silly talking point. Users and developers are not completely separate entities, and even if they were, that wouldn't explain why the GPL is popular, since it is developers who choose the license.
  Many of the developers who made Linux great have explicitly stated that they chose to contribute to Linux specifically because of the license, and that it preserves freedom for other users. Don't be disingenuous. That only impresses idiots.
  [citation needed]
  Especially since Linus himself says otherwise.
13. Re: Depends on the license by sglewis100 · 2017-08-19 11:16 · Score: 1
  
  Developers ARE users. Haven't you seen Tron?
14. Re: Depends on the license by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 14:53 · Score: 0
  
  And when has voting with one's feet/money ever really worked?
  The GPL and BSD licenses differ in which freedom they care more about. GPL cares about the user's freedom, while BSD cares about developer freedom.
  Morally, you shouldn't be able to take something permissively licensed and create a proprietary, commercial product with it. It's outsourcing R&D to the community while some smarmy entrepreneurial type repacks it for $$$, giving nothing back to the programmers who made their enterprise possible.
  The BSD license encourages leeching.
15. Re:Depends on the license by MrKaos · 2017-08-19 15:13 · Score: 1
  
  Wrong - you're completely free to use the non-forked version. Forks are just that - forks.
  Until you get forked, then you're completely forked and everything is a forking mess.
  
  --
  My ism, it's full of beliefs.
16. Re: Depends on the license by ClickOnThis · 2017-08-19 16:04 · Score: 1
  
  [agree with all your other points; one quibble...]
  
  The BSD license encourages leeching.
  I'm with you, but you misspelled theft.
  
  --
  If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
17. Re: Depends on the license by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 17:23 · Score: 0
  
  The most logical choices are the Apache Software Foundation if you want to go permissive, or the Eclipse Foundation if you want to go copyleft.
18. Re: Depends on the license by drinkypoo · 2017-08-20 00:19 · Score: 1
  
  Developers ARE users. Haven't you seen Tron?
  Tron is one of my favorite movies, but the majority of users are not developers.
  
  --
  "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
19. Re:Depends on the license by drinkypoo · 2017-08-20 00:21 · Score: 1
  
  Especially since Linus himself says otherwise.
  No, he does not. You are a liar. Go away, we have more than enough liars on Slashdot.
  
  --
  "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
20. Re: Depends on the license by iggymanz · 2017-08-20 08:32 · Score: 1
  
  morals you made up between your ears. they don't exist, no one has to live as you say.
  The programmers chose to use the BSD license. if they didn't like it, they could use GPL or other licensed framework. Nothing stolen, nothing immoral.
Apparently no posters so far know wat Java EE is by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 07:04 · Score: 1

But I guess I should not be surprised, it is slashduh after all.
when something don't give money to Oracle ... by Yonsy · 2017-08-19 07:08 · Score: 5, Interesting

They release this, and in many cases after become polluted by the same Oracle. OpenOffice is practically dead, Hudson is a dead corpse now when you talk about CI, Netbeans was proposed by the same Oracle for pass to an Apache Incubator project. MySQL is in a close match against MariaDB and Percona, after stupid attempts to complicate the release of the source code.

This will be the first time that Oracle give the product BEFORE screw up and kill this, after almost 7 years (Sun acquisition by Oracle finished in 2010). I maintain my doubts, more based in the privative licenses that Oracle can have in several JEE components, before gives this to an Open Community. This was an attempt with OpenJDK and OracleJDK "differences".
1. Re:when something don't give money to Oracle ... by kn · 2017-08-19 20:15 · Score: 2
  
  You missed OpenSolaris, perhaps their biggest fuck up of all. Disappointingly, all of this was totally foreseeable before the acquisition. IBM would have been a much better home for Sun.
Not redhat, nooooo! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 07:20 · Score: 0

I would not want to see the results if the EE parts of Java went someplace that Poettering could exert design influence.
not take backs by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 07:35 · Score: 0

Sure Oracle can give it away, as long as there is a no-take-back clause in the give away. We know Oracle.
Just let it die by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 07:52 · Score: 1

Java EE pretty much just waits for other people to come up with solutions, then they get a bunch of PhDs together to construct a specification and implementation that's overly complex and complicated ("It's theoretically perfect!"); that's full of badly-named classes, methods, and annotations (because all the intuitive names are already taken by the framework they're trying to keep people from realizing they're unsuccessfully ripping off); and is functionality inferior in a multitude of ways ("If we added that feature that everyone needs to make this at all useful then it would no longer be pure! IT MUST STAY PURE, MY PRECIOUS!").
The world just needs to let Java EE die a swift and painful death.
Nice by grumpy-cowboy · 2017-08-19 07:52 · Score: 4, Funny

Can we now integrate it to systemd please.

--
Will $CURRENT_YEAR be the year of the Linux Desktop?
Advice from Eclipse Foundation? Really? by jtara · 2017-08-19 08:43 · Score: 1

Let them both die!
Dinosaurs.
Messy messes IDEing messy messes.
Fuck you, Oracle. by Gravis+Zero · 2017-08-19 09:04 · Score: 1

Fuck you, in your stupid fucking face, you greedy bastards. I hope you choke on the bile that you are trying vomit upon us. ;)

--
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
1. Re:Fuck you, Oracle. by ClickOnThis · 2017-08-19 09:22 · Score: 1
  
  Fuck you, in your stupid fucking face, you greedy bastards. I hope you choke on the bile that you are trying vomit upon us. ;)
  I hear you, dude. There are many here who would like Larry Ellison to go fuck himself.
  Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if he married himself.
  
  --
  If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
2. Re:Fuck you, Oracle. by Gravis+Zero · 2017-08-19 11:01 · Score: 1
  
  Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if he married himself.
  That's some crazy dennis rodman shit right there. Maybe he's also friends with Fat Un. ;)
  
  --
  Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
Java EE != Java by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 10:07 · Score: 4, Informative

Java EE is a set of libraries written in Java to build "Enterprise applications". I don't know anyone who uses Java EE as it has been largely replaced with Spring Framework (which pretty much does the same thing, only better). So Oracle giving up on Java EE is nothing new or significant as they still own and control the Java platform. The "EE" in the name makes a huge difference...
1. Re:Java EE != Java by hey! · 2017-08-19 12:58 · Score: 1
  
  Well...
  What's happened is that Java EE has adopted inversion of control, which was popularized by Spring; it's not the same as being "replaced by" Spring.
  The reason you probably don't know anyone using Java EE is that it does something which is quite useful to a very small number of applications: it makes it easy to create operations that are both atomic and distributed. But that means it's not "scaleable" by modern Internet standards of scalability where consistency requirements are typically relaxed to allow gazillions of transactions per hour to take place. Which is smart. You don't want to imagine you have a requirement for perfect distributed consistency everywhere if you don't really have one, because it's hard.
  
  --
  Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
2. Re:Java EE != Java by angel'o'sphere · 2017-08-20 06:09 · Score: 1
  
  Java EE is more than Spring offers as 'alternative'.
  E.g. SOAP and REST based on annotations. Or lets say, Java EE defines them and Spring impements parts it sees fit and gives alternatives to other parts.
  Spring was a nice alternative when EJBs still were heavy weight. Right now I don't realy see a reason for it.
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
What are they giving exactly? by SpaghettiPattern · 2017-08-19 10:25 · Score: 2

Java EE - Java SE = stuff we can do without more and more.
Java EE > Java SE, meaning everything.

--

I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
Note to mods. by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 11:48 · Score: 0

Don't upvote and call a comment insightful unless it's actually relevant to the thing being discussed. FFS
Donate it to the .NET foundation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 11:51 · Score: 1

Why not?
1. Re:Donate it to the .NET foundation by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 15:24 · Score: 0
  
  Ba dum TISH!
Application servers are dead by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 12:09 · Score: 0

WAS, Weblogic, JBoss, etc. Just let JEE die too. Hell, a standard MVC framework didn't even come out until JEE 8. Who wants to use JSF? Who wants to use Struts 1?
Self contained Spring Boot applications are definitely the way to go for "enterprise" applications on the JVM nowadays. I don't know who in their right mind would start a new project with JEE.
I just want Oracle to end. by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 12:42 · Score: 0

Just sayin'
Re:Apparently no posters so far know wat Java EE i by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-19 20:08 · Score: 0

Certainly there are a lot that aren't aware, however, the real disappointment is that instead of taking this opportunity to educate those people, you just made a totally pointless post and further contributed to the downfall of slashdot that you allude to.
Fucking Oracle by Anonymous Coward · 2017-08-20 02:45 · Score: 0

Fucking Oracle, first suing Android and Google for copyright infringements and now this? Would they have taken this step if Google didn't win in the court?
Custodial Enterprise Solutions by jman.org · 2017-08-21 05:46 · Score: 1

Seems the obvious choice would be the Libre Foundation, but my snarky humorous side would love to see Google take over and somehow use the stewardship in their never-ending fight with Ellison et all...