Slashdot Mirror
postmarketOS Pursues A Linux-Based, LTS OS For Android Phones (liliputing.com)
An anonymous reader quotes Liliputing:
Buy an iPhone and you might get 4-5 years of official software updates. Android phones typically get 1-3 years of updates... if they get any updates at all. But there are ways to breathe new life into some older Android phones. If you can unlock the bootloader, you may be able to install a custom ROM like LineageOS and get unofficial software updates for a few more years. The folks behind postmarketOS want to go even further: they're developing a Linux-based alternative to Android with the goal of providing up to 10 years of support for old smartphones...
Right now postmarketOS is a touch-friendly operating system based on Alpine Linux that runs on a handful of devices including the Samsung Galaxy Nexus, Google Nexus 4, 5, and 7 (2012), and several other Samsung, HTC, LG, Motorola, and Sony smartphones. There are also ports for some non-Android phones such as the Nokia N900 and work-in-progress builds for the BlackBerry Bolt Touch 9900 and Jolla Phone. Note that when I say the operating system runs on those devices, I basically mean it boots. Some phones only have network access via a USB cable, for instance. None of the devices can actually be used to make phone calls. But here's the cool thing: the developers are hoping to create a single kernel that works with all supported devices, which means that postmarketOS would work a lot like a desktop operating system, allowing you to install the same OS on any smartphone with the proper hardware.
One postmarketOS developer complains that Android's architecture "is based on forking (one might as well say copy-pasting) the entire code-base for each and every device and Android version. And then working on that independent, basically instantly incompatible version. Especially adding device-specific drivers plays an important role... Here is the solution: Bend an existing Linux distribution to run on smartphones. Apply all necessary changes as small patches and upstream them, where it makes sense."
Right now postmarketOS is a touch-friendly operating system based on Alpine Linux that runs on a handful of devices including the Samsung Galaxy Nexus, Google Nexus 4, 5, and 7 (2012), and several other Samsung, HTC, LG, Motorola, and Sony smartphones. There are also ports for some non-Android phones such as the Nokia N900 and work-in-progress builds for the BlackBerry Bolt Touch 9900 and Jolla Phone. Note that when I say the operating system runs on those devices, I basically mean it boots. Some phones only have network access via a USB cable, for instance. None of the devices can actually be used to make phone calls. But here's the cool thing: the developers are hoping to create a single kernel that works with all supported devices, which means that postmarketOS would work a lot like a desktop operating system, allowing you to install the same OS on any smartphone with the proper hardware.
One postmarketOS developer complains that Android's architecture "is based on forking (one might as well say copy-pasting) the entire code-base for each and every device and Android version. And then working on that independent, basically instantly incompatible version. Especially adding device-specific drivers plays an important role... Here is the solution: Bend an existing Linux distribution to run on smartphones. Apply all necessary changes as small patches and upstream them, where it makes sense."
Patches get applied to the upstream Android distribution when submitted by manufacturers. What makes this approach any different? Do they suddenly think they can get manufacturers to play ball by saying it's Linux for smartphones (isn't that what Android is anyway?).
Another almost dead project!
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
preeze
Buy Pixel from google and you get updates also for at least 5 years. People have choice and if they select other manufacturers they have to live with what others provide. One of the reason i dont buy Samsung is their UI and no updates.
The phone market today seems akin to the PC Market back in the early 90's where they are just starting to settle down on what people want and what can be made, but are we there yet?
early 1980 PC's were made with a bunch of processors and OS's they were some systems, that were compatible with each other, but they were considered ripoffs and often would fall into legal problems.
Late 1990 Phones. Were made with a bunch of different systems and every new model was like a new phone.
late 1980 PC's Battle lines are being drawn. Apple vs. IBM (What we now call a PC) Amiga holding on.
Early 2000 Phones. Black Berry, Microsoft Mobile, Palm were fighting for the smart phone market, while Nokia, Samsung, LG, Motorola were fighting for the consumer market.
Early 1990 The IBM PC won with its compatibles with Microsoft being the true victor as with all the Hardware in fighting, Microsoft was expanding the winning side, to be entrenched in the next battle.
Late 2000 phones. the iPhone came out, and Android was under serious development. Apple and Google have been playing behind the scenes of the smart phone war realizing the smaller Consumer Models were not going to make it.
Late 1990 The PC were no longer connected to IBM and all the IBM Compatibles were fighting for the better selling PC. Microsoft really holding onto the market share
Early 2010 Phones, Apple is the dominate player and Google putting a good push on Android, However the phone makers are trying to make their phones better selling then each other.
Early 2000 PC's Are more or less getting boring to the market Apple had a resurgence for this decade, due to the Halo effect of its iPod line and Microsoft not doing much with XP and delays on the new OS. But in terms of PC's we got use to using them more as a general tool, then something cool and a status symbol.
Late 2010 Phones. Well this is where we are at now. Are we getting ready for a life of boring mobile devices where we don't really care about them any more, they are just a tool, where LTS makes a lot of sense because we won't be needed to update our phones any longer barring failure or damage.
As I type this on my 6 year old Thinkpad, which still is fast and seems to do things just as good as the newer PC's barring high end video. Where before I was getting a new PC every 3 or 4 years to keep up with the times, now it just a tool, I could get a smaller lighter and faster PC.... But what for? It does what I want and I am not having any problems keeping the software up to date, or finding new software for it.
Is the mobile market getting to this point or are their going to be some twist and turns that will make LTS OS a wast of time, because we will be using out of date and usless phones.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
this is basically what a very small team behind handhelds.org did with the openembedded project. bitbake - the build system behind openembedded - became an extremely powerful tool as a result, empowering that small team and part-time contributors to quite literally manage the build for something mad like over a hundred different hand-held devices... including some smartphones.
i don't exactly know the full history but i *think* that most of the team behind handhelds.org were employees of Compaq, and the employees weren't too happy that all of Compaq's PDAs ran Wince[ouch]. when Compaq lost interest in PDAs (even the ones with phone capability) thanks to the huge success of HTC's very first few phones like the Blueangel and Universal (a brilliant clamshell microlaptop in effect) it wasn't long before handhelds.org went down the tubes as well... which is a real serious pity. a *lot* of critical history - and source code - went down with it. i vaguely recall there being some sort of fight over the domain name... gaah this was all over 12 years ago now so it's all a bit fuzzy.
anyway, various... idiots since.... have lambasted bitbake and the entire openembedded project as quotes being too complex quotes and have come up with quotes simpler quotes systems such as buildroot. not realising that the complexity behind openembedded and bitbake is *there for a good reason*. along similar lines you end up with even more idiotic things like forking an entire distribution on a per-manufacturer basis, just as the OA describes.
the point is: it's a great idea for a small team to offer support for a wide range of devices, but they'll need appropriate infrastructure to do it. bitbake - and its ability to hybrid-combine python and shell-code with regular expression pattern-matching to manage toolchain downloading, toolchain compiling, patches, configuration, cross-compiling, cross-compiling using qemu to run the compilation and configuration "native" (yes, really! bitbake can run a native compiler via a qemu headless configuration in order to handle the proper cross-compiling of an entire OS!), parallel builds, cacheing and a bucket-load more, would be a good starting point for them. anything else - once you get into the details - quickly becomes a total nightmare, and that's what things like buildroot's developers totally fail to understand.
Whoever downvoted the parent is clearly not on the side of George Soros, who wants to see the USA crumble into pieces and fall apart so he can make a profit. As a white nationalist, I support George Soros, who worked with Nazis, and stole gold from Jews to build his empire. I think it is wonderful when Jews become powerful enough to manipulate world markets and the media, as George Soros does.
Is it weird when a post disappears from /., and then reappears when George Soros' name appears?
There is a lot of work ahead but I think the computing world needs this.
So, in a nutshell, I should trust blindly a small company/organization to provide me with free support for 10 years, no string attached? Man, few open source communities can do such crazy support without any kind of funding.
And do not tell me about Debian, Slackware, Arch, LineageOS and so. Either they got clear ties to well defined corporate funding or they get upstream patches from open source software funded by companies.
Get real. Unless there is a real paid subscription, a programmed hardware obsolescence, a shady telemetrics-heavy framework, an appstore cash cow, or clearly defined sponsors, I will not ever touch this thing.
Stupidity is the root of all evil.
How does one make an LTS distro based on closed source drivers? Does the support only apply to security patches?
Most all mobile apps are just dumbed down re-inventions of the good 'ol regular computer programs.. dumbed down but also 10x more bloated..
Personally I think they telecom industry made deals with all the big computer/phone manufacturers NOT to build phone size x86, Windows/Linux compatible computers.. And they were all for it, to create their own walled garden(enslaved) ecosystems. OQO. Flipstart, Sony UX and many others were 'right on the door' but they all seemed to give up when Android and Iphones came out!?!?!
I think if there were a fully functional phone sized x86 PC (pinch zoom, WinXP-7 UI) people might not necessarily even use 'voice services', wifi and or VOip tech would be most common.
Their are plenty of Intel Compute sticks /knockoffs, and the modern x86 chips are just as, if not better power management than arm... So I know they can be made to the Droid3 form factor.. but no-one is doing it? I'd pay 2x the price of an iphone for one if some #$%#$ would make one properly.
x86, runs legacy x86 OS's/software, slideout kb. 2 micro-usb(one for power), MicroSD, hdmi,removable battery, yada yad.
Seriously, both Iphone and Android are #$%$# ing terrible vs regular old Windows/Linux desktop apps.. Some say traditional desktop is not usable on a phone, I've tried it through VNC, works great.. The problem is the industry is keeping these off the market for some reason.(keep programmers busy? Rewriting the same old thing I presume).
https://www.intel.com/content/...
make phone calls? text messages?
what are you? some kind of caveman who thawed out recently?
This already exists with the former founder of Cyanogen OS in the form of LineageOS. [https://lineageos.org/about/]
The list of supported devices is here and it is pretty long. [https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/]
I have an original OnePlusOne and thanks to LineageOS I am currently sitting on Android 7.1.2. with a patchset from 8/14/2017. Monday, I'll have a new update.
If this extended(aka super-one year) support is important to you please:
(1) Use this OS
(2) Report bugs in a useful way.
(3) Contribute in some small financial way to the project.
You managed number of things. To write a thoughtful few sentences on the subject, at least they can be qualified as interesting if one does not subscribe to the ideas presented. Then you asked for downvote in the way as sure as hell. It worked on both counts. You also made me laugh which on this afternoon was not an easy task. I thank you for that. On the second thought I should not have laughed either way. But I still did. I hate (watch out google!!!) having to cry. I much more prefer to laugh.
None of the devices can actually be used to make phone calls.
Sounds like a real key selling point, since we are talking about, well, phones here.
Sounds cool, let's see if this becomes a reality and i'm just a lurker in this project.
One thing that a tech people don't realize is that not everyone wants the latest phone every year to begin with. A large portion of the market will never used ANY of the advanced features that Google tries to add with every generation of phone. I do repair and salvage of these various devices, and one of the greats complains I hear is that NO ONE want's these new features that Google keeps pushing with each version of their hardware. None of them give a damn to integrate ANYTHING with their google accounts and mostly just want something that'll play video. And none of them I speak to EVER buy anything on the Play store.
Hell, right now I'm sitting on a 50 pound box of older phones from the past 5 years. I don't do repair of these things a primary job, but even then I've got such a back log of spares that I'm mostly just chucking a good half of what I get because I've got too many. Even the place in town that does this for a business has the same problem.
Design a linux based smartphone OS that does exactly TWO things: make phone calls, and send text messages.
If it only does those two things, it doesn't have to be a smartphone. You can pick up a feature phone for $20 right now that will do that.
Android is Linux. They want to put GNU/Linux on the smart phone. This is not new either. I find it quite uninteresting.
Yeah that's one thing I didn't think to mention, but that is a valid point and a real problem for the mobile industry. Constantly having to relearn the ins and outs of an OS is frustrating as HELL and puts off a lot of the consumer market.
To go along with that line of thought; as I said I don't do phone repair as a primary job. Just as a second job since i have a lot of skill in electronics repair. No, my primary job up until very recently was a local route Truck driver. And there is nothing more INFURIATING than relying on a phone for you job only to have it brick itself from a screwed up forced update. Which is why I 100% abandoned the use my ANY smart phone for any job specific task. It is NOT worth the hassle.
Great. A telephone that cannot be used to make telephone calls. With a five-inch screen that makes the Kaypro I look generous. No real keyboard, only a touchscreen emulation of a keyboard with microscopic key-targets so you can type perhaps as fast as five words a minute before realizing everything you entered was silently changed to be nothing like what you intended to write. Of what possible use is such a device?
I would love to be able to put normal distro like Fedora on my phone and tablet. As long I can make phone calls + message, everything else is already available. It has web browsers, mapping programs, music player, etc.
So why can't I run Fedora on my devices? Why does it have to be Android?
Why not just fork and develop Firefox OS? It actually works, is based on Linux, CSS and HTML5 and has actually been deployed by a handful of phone manufacturers, primarily in India. I don't even think it's truly dead, as a couple of small Indian firms appear to still be developing it.
Sure, it was a waste of time for Mozilla but no need to reinvent the wheel.
I want to be able to do three things:
Phone calls, text messages, GPS, and Facebook
I'll come in again...
my galaxy note 2 hardware is still quite ok (microphone problems, but using it as a phone never was a priority), but CM is non existent and samsung stopped to deliver update a long time ago.... I would be a bigger fan if they would have based it on debian, but ok...
My Amd Rx 480 runs faster and more stable with the open drivers tjan what it does with the closed ones on Windows.
There's good reasons why it's easy to install Linux on 10yo PCs but Google can't update Android even on its own phones for more than a few years, and those are all down to device drivers. PCs have well-documented processors, standardised BIOS, common hardware interfaces, and nearly all the main hardware APIs are open and well-understood (notable exceptions include high-level 3D graphics acceleration chips). Anyone can write something that will boot and run on nearly any PC (or VM) in the last 25 years.
That's not what the phone world looks like. Even without carrier complications, smartphones are built on a limited range of proprietary SoCs whose hardware interfaces are jealously guarded by their manufacturers, who supply specific binary driver blobs for each model under strict NDAs to companies that buy enough. Any OS HAL has to be tailored to those driver blobs, usually by the phone's manufacturer when they build the hardware. New SoC (new drivers), or new OS, and this has to be done again. If the SoC vendor exits the market (like TI did), you're out of luck. It's a huge job for organisations like Cyanogen/Lineage to blindly juggle existing closed drivers with continuing lower-level OS changes, papering over the growing gaps (especially if the HAL source isn't available) for each different device, and results are not always ideal.
postmarketOS hasn't attempted to tackle most of these drivers yet, even for the few devices it boots on. FirefoxOS has the same issue, with support only for the few specific devices it was tailored to, and porting MeeGo, Maemo, Sailfish, Tizen, WebOS, Ubuntu Touch, or any Linux distro would have to be done in the dark for each and every different phone.
Google's new Android O release (due today) hopes to alleviate this somewhat with Project Treble, a standardised driver interface layer that SoC vendors can interface to, regardless of model or vendor or (hopefully) AOSP updates. There's still carrier- and manufacturer-specific changes to worry about, but in theory new releases of vanilla Android could be installed on Treble-compliant platforms with minimal effort, and maybe even older devices could have Treble layers written for them, ensuring continued support for years to come.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
it comes without a system, i plug it into the fucking computer, load a fucking program with several distros to install, pick one and install the system and some basic apps from a fucking repository, ideally all apps would be no nonsense stuff made by some basement dweller mega nerd with really thick glasses, kinda like the ones in regular linux distros
im not interested in the spy machines they sell today, they are garbage
Perhaps it is time to re-read Why Openmoko failed
Design a linux based smartphone OS that does exactly TWO things: make phone calls, and send text messages.
That isn't a better idea at all, it is a much worse idea because nobody wants that.
My guess would be that the surface phone will be just that... An x86/AMD64 based smartphone that runs full Blown Windows 10... But with default tablet mode when not in dock and default desktop mode when in dock... Hopefully still with the option of selecting tablet mode for dock and desktop for non dock if you should want to do that..
That would make sense for ms and boost Their 'metro' apps
I just Hope they wont make an arm based surface phone that would be stupid
There have been x86/amd64 based phones with Windows before
but the tech was powerhungry and they ran xp and win 7..
Both were not optimal for a phone
Smartphone OS support for 10 years is pointless.
If battery life is measured in charge cycles, then a 1000-cycle battery can most optimistically last 3-4 years. In practice most have trouble getting past 30 months without being significantly degraded, and that downward spiral of battery life makes the last 3 months miserable. Snap-on external batteries or Qi chargers to give more and more convenient recharging opportunities don;t offer much of an enhanced experience. Battery life cycle duration is the real limiting factor, and the trend to non-removable batteries ensures the industry has a defined and predictable replacement cycle, hence a predictable replacement market.
Profits. Enabling users to extend the life of their insanely expensive toys isn't as profitable as relying on Moore's Law to make the replacement to so so attractive.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
I hope all the best for them fully knowing it's an uphill battle...
How many projects with similar promisses we've heard about in the past?
I'd really love to use older smartphones as a Linux box of sorts, even if there are downsides to it... put it to good use instead of turning it into eWaste and all.
This is why I was a believer in Firefox OS. They only needed to release a low end 5" phone with IPS display, now there are tons of these selling with Android 5 and 6 in 2017.
There was a 5", 16:9 480p phone that got delayed and canceled which is a shame as everyone wanted a 5" phone already.
I was like Chromebook but for phones and without Google applications.
I don't know about Windows XP and 7 phones, are you sure these weren't "Mobile Internet Devices" instead? more like a tiny micro laptop with 3G.
More like a descendant of Olivetti Quaderno or Toshiba Libretto than of a Nokia 9000.
The real x86 phones ran Android.
Yes they have kind of an ARM Surface Phone, it's the HP elite phone, whatever it's called. I suppose you that once updated to Snapdragon 835 you can use one to run Photoshop CS2 or a 20-year-old version of Autocad, etc.
Intel exited the phone market and AMD is gonna use an architecture that scales from netbooks to servers, so.. unless an x86 vendor secretly works on a chip for phones, even VIA, there's simply no suitable hardware for an amd64 phone even though there's no technical reason it can't be done.