Why Oracle Should Cede Control of Java SE (infoworld.com)

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Why Oracle Should Cede Control of Java SE (infoworld.com)

Posted by EditorDavid on Saturday September 2, 2017 @01:09PM from the virtual-licenses dept.

An anonymous reader quotes InfoWorld: Now that Oracle wants to turn over leadership of enterprise Java's (Java EE's) development to a still-unnamed open source foundation, might the same thing happen with the standard edition of Java (Java SE) that Oracle also controls? Such a move could produce substantial benefits... Oracle said it has no plans to make such a move. But the potential fruits of a such a move are undeniable.

For one, a loosening of Oracle's control could entice other contributors to Java to participate more... [W]ith the current Oracle-dominated setup, other companies and individuals could be reluctant to contribute a lot if they see it as benefiting a major software industry provider -- and possible rival -- like Oracle... Indeed, the 22-year-old language and platform could be given a whole new lease on life, if the open source community rises to the occasion and boosts participation...

Despite the potential to grow Java SE by ceding control, Oracle seems content to hold on to its place as the steward of JDK development. But that could change given the tempestuous relationship Oracle has with parts of the Java community. Oracle has been at loggerheads with the community over both Java SE and Java EE... Oracle may at some point decide it is easier to just cede control rather than having to keep soothing the ruffled feathers that keep occurring among its Java partners.

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Will NEVER happen by GodfatherofSoul · 2017-09-02 13:16 · Score: 2

I think they acquired Sun (and Java as a result) as a dick move towards Google. If they had any inclination to do so, way back then would have been the opportune time. Doing so now would be seen as admitting defeat (as if the court loss wasn't a big enough statement).

--
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
1. Re:Will NEVER happen by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 16:07 · Score: 0
  
  dick move, but they went all in on Java for their apps built on top of their database.
2. Re:Will NEVER happen by Pseudonym · 2017-09-02 21:19 · Score: 1
  
  I think they acquired Sun (and Java as a result) as a dick move towards Google.
  I think they acquired Sun because Oracle was the only thing that people used SPARC and Solaris for at the time.
  
  --
  sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
3. Re:Will NEVER happen by gtall · 2017-09-02 21:55 · Score: 1
  
  I'd second that. The conversation with Java probably went along the lines of:
  Oracle Lawyer: So this Java, what's it do?
  Sun Lawyer: It's great, you can write code once and run it on anything.
  OL: Why would I want to do that?
  SL: Because then all the software will be essentially controlled by you.
  OL: Oh....does it have any profit potential?
  SL: (looks at other Sun Lawyer and gives sneaky wink) Big Pontential, oh yes!!
Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 13:27 · Score: -1

Oracle has plenty of reasons to keep control of Java SE. The alternative is likely to turn it over to an open source non-profit, and this is a terrible idea. Open source ruins everything, and Java will be no exception. From the forks because developers are too immature to the hostile and nasty behavior on mailing lists and the rampant misogyny in the open source community, it's best not to turn such a critical piece of software over to the open source community. Oracle should not cede control of Java SE, otherwise it will almost certainly cease to be a unified system and will likely begin its downfall.
1. Re:Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 13:35 · Score: 0
  
  Open source ruins everything
  This is true. However, Java is already shit, so going open source wouldn't be a big change.
  Java is a cancer that needs to die.
2. Re:Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by HBI · 2017-09-02 13:39 · Score: 0, Flamebait
  
  It's already pretty much dead. Running a system without a JVM is entirely possible today - i've done so for years.
  I would never consider writing any software that depended on a JVM. Under any circumstances. Having had to support that kind of thing for the last 20+ years, i'd never willingly subject others to it.
  The name is poison and it's dying its well-deserved death in just about every space you could mention. Even the military is divesting itself of Java, bit by bit.
  
  --
  HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
3. Re: Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 13:44 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Yeah, it's the #1 language on TIOBE index by a large margain, but it's dead. Sure. Ok.
  Is there something about the millennial generation to just convince themselves what they like to be true? I mean, I think Justin Beiber is the worst, but I don't pretend that everyone hates him and his career is over.
  Come back to reality kid. Java is used now more than ever, and will continue to be used for a very long time.
4. Re: Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 13:47 · Score: 0
  
  Java is the new Cobol. Big doesn't mean good.
5. Re:Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 13:53 · Score: 0
  
  Wait, Windows is open source?
6. Re:Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 13:55 · Score: 0, Flamebait
  
  With your command of the facts, you sound like a trump voter. Yes?
7. Re: Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 13:55 · Score: 0
  
  And 57 years later it's still in the Top 25, what's your point?
  It also took a long time for COBOL to fall, and Java is #1 right now. Java isn't going away tomorrow, or next year, or ten years from now.
  I get the Java hate, there's a lot of things I don't like about Java, but are any of you living in reality. Declaring Java dead doesn't make it so, it just makes you look like a moron.
8. Re: Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 14:09 · Score: 0
  
  But but over "3-beeillion devices run Java." Ah ha I see what they did there! They never said they run Java *well*.
9. Re: Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 14:10 · Score: 1
  
  That means nothing. I've been to plenty of businesses where they have policies in place now they actively prevent Java apps being used. It's a dying language. Part of the problem is that they are still teaching it in universities and that probably contributes to their perceived popularity.
10. Re:Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 14:14 · Score: 1
  
  ^^ Fact free politics-style rant, asking readers to agree on the basis of the writer's "passion" and reference to "dealing with it for 20 years".
  Will that be enough here? *shrugs*
11. Re: Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 14:15 · Score: 0
  
  "Profanity is the one language all programmers know best."
12. Re: Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 14:23 · Score: 0
  
  I've been to plenty of businesses where they have policies in place now they actively prevent Java apps being used.
  What languages do they use instead? Ruby? Go? Rust? JavaScript?
13. Re: Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 14:25 · Score: 0
  
  I went to Indeed right now and put in "java developer".
  Jobs 1 to 10 of 30,796
  Is there another language I could enter that would list a lot more jobs? Sure, every company has languages they won't use. I want some proof that Java is dead and/or dying, not "well, I don't like it so it's dead" or "well, my company won't use it so it's dead' or "well, the military is throwing it away, and no, I don't have a source for that".
14. Re: Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 16:11 · Score: 0
  
  Who does Trump hate the most? Negros or Mexicans?
15. Re: Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by mark-t · 2017-09-02 16:36 · Score: 2
  
  I would think that the sheer number of job available that need it is what is contributing to it's "perceived popularity".
  But of course, the number of jobs in which one would use a programming language is certainly a piss-poor indicator of any true merit it might have, right?
  (eye-roll)
  
  --
  File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
16. Re: Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 19:14 · Score: 0
  
  It's place is on servers. Fucking billions of them. Running everything COBOL used to. Maybe you're so ignorant you confuse some policy for not installing java on PC's, which could be all you're talking about, with a general decline.
17. Re:Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 19:49 · Score: 0
  
  I think you are talking about desktops, in which case you are correct - a JVM is no longer needed.
  On servers it's a different story. Java is huge and work well for server apps.
18. Re: Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 23:05 · Score: 0
  
  I wasn't aware COBOL had fallen, just the opposite. I've been reading articles about companies trying hard to get this generation to learn COBOL from us grey hairs who are all ready to retire and are not even interested in high dollar contract work anymore. It might no longer be the go-to language for something new, but it sure is still in use in a lot of places.
19. Re: Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 03:08 · Score: 0
  
  White millenials, especially the ones that say shit like "java is dead", and "who does Trump hate the most?"
20. Re: Good reasons to keep control of Java SE by david_thornley · 2017-09-05 08:05 · Score: 1
  
  COBOL is probably dying, but certainly more slowly than COBOL programmers. The shortage of COBOL programmers will hurt.
  There are F/OS COBOL versions (that are not welcome in my house), but the ecosystem that hosts most of it is laden with old IBM mainframe systems that are not F/OS. I'd think that can only hurt the availability of replacement COBOL people.
  
  --
  "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Might As well by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 13:45 · Score: 0

Oracle has been struggling to make Java even worse by themselves. Might as well let the community that brought us Gnome and SystemD dig it further in the ground.
What about following the Rust model? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 14:12 · Score: -1

What about following a development model like the Rust programming language has?
They have a variety of teams that work on various parts of the language and its ecosystem. One of the most important teams is the Rust Moderation Team, which enforces the Rust Code of Conduct. This code of conduct ensures a tolerant environment for all. Anyone who doesn't show tolerance is excluded.
They also make heavy use of GitHub, which is where they track the over 2,700 open issues that currently affect Rust. This also provides a collaborative environment for Rust's extremely diverse development team, which mainly consists of white males in their 20s, to work together on Rust.
It's also important to make sure that the language gets a lot of attention at places like Reddit, Hacker News and Stack Overflow. But remember, if anybody says anything critical about the language then those comments must be modded down. It's intolerant to say anything bad about Rust.
Java has been around a long time, and perhaps it's time for it to adopt a modern programming language development methodology like we've seen created by the Rust community. This approach has already worked well for Rust, causing it to become such a widely used language. It will surely work well for a language like Java, too.
1. Re:What about following the Rust model? by ShanghaiBill · 2017-09-02 14:40 · Score: 1
  
  the Rust Moderation Team, which enforces the Rust Code of Conduct. This code of conduct ensures a tolerant environment for all. Anyone who doesn't show tolerance is excluded.
  We should use Rust to bring peace to the Middle East.
2. Re:What about following the Rust model? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 14:56 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  You joke, but this is what the Rust Code of Conduct says (with emphasis added):
  
  We will exclude you from interaction if you insult, demean or harass anyone. That is not welcome behaviour. We interpret the term “harassment” as including the definition in the Citizen Code of Conduct; if you have any lack of clarity about what might be included in that concept, please read their definition. In particular, we don’t tolerate behavior that excludes people in socially marginalized groups.
  The same paragraph that states "we don’t tolerate behavior that excludes people" starts with "We will exclude you from interaction".
3. Re: What about following the Rust model? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 15:05 · Score: 0
  
  Intolerance is the one exception to tolerance. Sorry if that seems like an oxymoron but it's the truth.
4. Re:What about following the Rust model? by The+Evil+Atheist · 2017-09-02 15:37 · Score: 1
  
  You're the smartass kid in class who takes everything literally as though its funny and clever and reads only enough of a sentence to feel like you're so smart to find a contradiction. But that contradiction falls apart when actually comprehending the whole sentence, had you cared to read it whole.
  
  --
  Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
5. Re: What about following the Rust model? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 16:08 · Score: 0
  
  Wrong. If you don't tolerate intolerance then you inherently become intolerant yourself. The only way to be tolerant is to tolerate those who are intolerant. It's that simple. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong, like you are.
6. Re:What about following the Rust model? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 16:20 · Score: 0
  
  Read the quoted paragraph again, and actually put some thought into it this time.
  
  We will exclude you from interaction if you insult, demean or harass anyone.
  By excluding people who insult, demean or harass anyone, the Rust community has itself created a socially marginalized group that consists of these people who insult, demean or harass anyone.
  
  In particular, we don’t tolerate behavior that excludes people in socially marginalized groups.
  By excluding this socially marginalized group of people that they've created, the Rust community itself inherently violates of its own code of conduct, which says it's unacceptable to exclude people in socially marginalized groups.
  The Rust Code of Conduct is so inherently contradictory that merely by following the policies of the Rust Code of Conduct one inherently ends up violating the Rust Code of Conduct!
  It's even sadder when one realizes that this Rust Code of Conduct is being pushed by computer programmers, who by necessity have to avoid this sort of ambiguity and contradiction in order to write functioning software.
  If they can't put together something as simple as a code of conduct without getting mired in contradiction, we can't expect them to write software that works properly.
7. Re: What about following the Rust model? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 21:22 · Score: 0
  
  You are not smart enough to study, let alone make contributions to, moral philosophy. Much smarter people than you have gone through this and understand that this is not a contradiction. You have not said anything that is persuasive to anyone who actually understands ethics and morality.
  I'd tell you to go read some Karl Popper, but you wouldn't understand it.
8. Re:What about following the Rust model? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 21:27 · Score: 0
  
  By excluding people who insult, demean or harass anyone, the Rust community has itself created a socially marginalized group that consists of these people who insult, demean or harass anyone.
  No, they existed long before Rust came along. Assholes have always been with us. They are not, and have never been, an oppressed minority group. Either jerkwads can be socialised to exist to civil society, in which case they should be, or they can't, in which case they do not belong in civil society.
  Open source, like everything worth doing these days, depends on teamwork. If someone is unable or unwilling to be part of a team without jerking off all over their would-be collaborators then they are of no use.
9. Re:What about following the Rust model? by mean+pun · 2017-09-02 21:50 · Score: 0
  
  Read the quoted paragraph again, and actually put some thought into it this time.
  
  We will exclude you from interaction if you insult, demean or harass anyone.
  By excluding people who insult, demean or harass anyone, the Rust community has itself created a socially marginalized group that consists of these people who insult, demean or harass anyone.
  
  In particular, we don’t tolerate behavior that excludes people in socially marginalized groups.
  By excluding this socially marginalized group of people that they've created, the Rust community itself inherently violates of its own code of conduct, which says it's unacceptable to exclude people in socially marginalized groups.
  The Rust Code of Conduct is so inherently contradictory that merely by following the policies of the Rust Code of Conduct one inherently ends up violating the Rust Code of Conduct!
  That's nonsense. You can always choose not to be an asshole.
10. Re: What about following the Rust model? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 00:06 · Score: 0
  
  Let's repeat it for you: If you don't tolerate intolerance then you inherently become intolerant yourself. The only way to be tolerant is to tolerate those who are intolerant. It's that simple. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong.
11. Re: What about following the Rust model? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 03:22 · Score: 0
  
  Funny rant, but they have 109 open issues. The number you gave is of total issues.
inb4 Microsoft by NicknameUnavailable · 2017-09-02 14:15 · Score: 1

decides to include the new open-source Java as a part of it's .NET platform just to piss in Oracle's face.
1. Re: inb4 Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 14:18 · Score: 0
  
  This is about Java and you bring up Microsoft for what reason exactly? Because you are fucking stupid and have dick fear.
2. Re:inb4 Microsoft by sproketboy · 2017-09-02 14:28 · Score: 1, Interesting
  
  They can't cause they are too shit for that. Java > .NET in every conceivable way. If you don't understand that then go home.
3. Re:inb4 Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 15:57 · Score: 0
  
  But Microsoft is so confused that they claimed Mono was open source even though they said they would sue anyone that used it. They just don't grok open source.
4. Re: inb4 Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 16:07 · Score: 0
  
  I think he's making a reference to Visual J++
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_J%2B%2B#Sun.27s_litigation_against_Microsoft
5. Re:inb4 Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 16:37 · Score: 0
  
  every conceivable way
  You're invited to list a single one.
6. Re:inb4 Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 16:40 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Java > .NET in every conceivable way.
  Oh really? Take a look at the feature by feature comparison of C# and Java. C# supports both more and better features than Java and the .NET class library is richer in both breadth and depth. And where is Oracle in the cloud these days? The two biggest players right now are Amazon Web Services and Microsoft Azure. Google and Apple are both working on their cloud offerings, but they're still behind AWS and Azure. Oracle isn't even in the race. Oracle views the cloud as "pay us to run our software products for you on our servers", not as a development platform for independent software that might even compete with their cash cow business applications and database business. In many ways Oracle is where Microsoft used to be during the Steve Ballmer administration a decade ago, before Satya Nadella took over. Under Nadella's leadership Microsoft has seized upon opportunities to open source the .NET platform, build serious cross platform development tools and make them available free of charge while promoting the Azure cloud platform for independent development, even if it competes with them. Moreover, Microsoft is doing these things even though they arguably hurt the Windows and Office business in the short run because Nadella understands that Microsoft's future depends upon open source development and the cloud business, not the platforms of the past. Compare that with Larry Ellison of Oracle, who's still effectively in charge and is a contemporary of Steve Ballmer and Bill Gates. He was late to the cloud and his leadership of Oracle in recent years suggests an antiquated and unreformed view of the software industry that's stuck in the past while his competitors take a more modern view. Java has languished under Oracle and was made radioactive after the Google lawsuit. Ellison demonstrated that he was perfectly willing to burn any good will that Java still had in the open source community, making them pawns in his grand strategy legal attack against Google and Android. Say what you want about Microsoft, but they never sued anybody for making compatible or interoperable implementations of .NET languages or class libraries. Why continue as Larry Ellison's bitch when there are so many better alternatives to Java? It's a good question.
7. Re:inb4 Microsoft by Sniffy2 · 2017-09-02 16:57 · Score: 0
  
  list em
8. Re:inb4 Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 19:26 · Score: 0
  
  Fuck - are you an actual human? MBA? Are you impressed by 'the Cloud'? You'd suck any of these CEO's cocks dry.
9. Re:inb4 Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 23:10 · Score: 0
  
  Exactly how many operating systems does .Net code and all those much better class libraries run on again?
10. Re:inb4 Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 00:32 · Score: 0
  
  About the same as Java these days.
11. Re: inb4 Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 04:09 · Score: 0
  
  Scott Macnealy, is that you?
12. Re:inb4 Microsoft by DarkOx · 2017-09-03 07:20 · Score: 1
  
  Say what you want about Microsoft, but they never sued anybody for making compatible or interoperable implementations of .NET languages or class libraries
  I think that has more to do with Mono never becoming much more than a toy for most and possibly useful to a very narrow set of special cases by a handful of enterprises who were unlikely to pick a Microsoft technology if they had to pony up.
  
  --
  Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
13. Re:inb4 Microsoft by NicknameUnavailable · 2017-09-03 14:38 · Score: 0
  
  They can't cause they are too shit for that. Java > .NET in every conceivable way. If you don't understand that then go home.
  The most critical rule to any hiring process: of the applicant likes Java not only reject them, but spread the word. People with Java "experience" are all hacks, formally educated wannabe software developers without an ounce of actual experience - save sometimes for Oracle's database system, if you can even call it that.
14. Re:inb4 Microsoft by NicknameUnavailable · 2017-09-03 14:42 · Score: 1
  
  Oracle views the cloud as "pay us to run our software products for you on our servers"
  I think you give them too much credit to assume they view it as anything. Every single group I've ever come across using Oracle software was an NPO or a government agency who knew some really shady contractors. They get in the door to large corporations through handshake deals then corrupt every non-Oracle thing they touch into being incompatible with everything else, they're basically Microsoft for hipsters.
15. Re:inb4 Microsoft by sproketboy · 2017-09-05 21:55 · Score: 1
  
  The most critical rule to any hiring process: of the applicant likes .NET not only reject them, but spread the word. People with .NET "experience" are all hacks, formally educated wannabe software developers without an ounce of actual experience - save sometimes for Microsoft Paint, if you can even call it that.
16. Re:inb4 Microsoft by NicknameUnavailable · 2017-09-06 00:22 · Score: 1
  
  The difference being .NET is useful for quickly prototyping things and for making super powerful stuff with minimal effort, while Java doesn't even have a supporting library with 5% the capacity of the .NET core. But hey, if you knew any of that you wouldn't be a Java supporter.
17. Re:inb4 Microsoft by sproketboy · 2017-09-06 11:28 · Score: 1
  
  Where did you get that from you're anus? Compare JavaFX to WPF one weekend. I dare you.
18. Re:inb4 Microsoft by NicknameUnavailable · 2017-09-07 04:39 · Score: 1
  
  WPF is a very minor part of the .NET library.
19. Re:inb4 Microsoft by sproketboy · 2017-09-07 22:17 · Score: 1
  
  Sorry, was that an argument?
20. Re:inb4 Microsoft by NicknameUnavailable · 2017-09-08 01:48 · Score: 1
  
  Considering you basically said "a notepad is better than Excel because you can draw on it," yes that was an argument. You compared a very minor portion of the .NET framework only even relevant to UI designers to the power of a library - actually that example I gave is a bad one, because UI isn't even programming.
OOP is dead! Hail functional programming! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 14:20 · Score: -1

Guys, the SQL is going to be COBOL of the next decade in software industry. We still have a huge number of systems under various RDBMS. but they cannot compete against NO-SQL solutions anymore. It is long story, but the time of SQL usage for every possible task is over, so specialists capable to do that are quickly becoming specialists of niche market the same way as COBOL. J2EE has no future, from my perspective due to issues with its JVM. All large systems I saw in production required very deep knowledge of JVM internals and GC management tuning, so the whole idea of writing simple manageable code is killed by production issues. As for Java language itself, it is in good shape to stay for another decade alive for sure.
1. Re:OOP is dead! Hail functional programming! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 15:49 · Score: 0
  
  You might be retarded
2. Re:OOP is dead! Hail functional programming! by MightyMartian · 2017-09-02 16:15 · Score: 3
  
  Not might be; is fully and completely retarded. Nosql has replaced SQL, seriously? That's the same level of stupidity that has people here declaring Java dead.
  
  --
  The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
3. Re: OOP is dead! Hail functional programming! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 02:09 · Score: 0
  
  NoSQL was a fad. Thankfully it is nearly over
Because they're getting their asses handed to them by rsilvergun · 2017-09-02 14:21 · Score: 1

by Node.js and Angular for anything besides the odd query to a database here and there?

--
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Paul Krill = Joke by sproketboy · 2017-09-02 14:29 · Score: 1

Paul Krill is a joke. Just look at his history.
Give it away? by boudie2 · 2017-09-02 14:30 · Score: 1

Larry Ellison didn't get to where he is (one of the richest in the world) by giving shit away. Is there a tax deduction involved? Hidden agenda?
1. Re:Give it away? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 05:18 · Score: 0
  
  Larry Ellison didn't get to where he is (one of the richest in the world) by giving shit away. Is there a tax deduction involved? Hidden agenda?
  Oracle has been supporting and giving away the Berkeley DB source code for decades now.
potential fruits? by Gravis+Zero · 2017-09-02 15:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

But the potential fruits of a such a move are undeniable.
How are these "potential fruits" going to help Oracle? I ask because that's the only thing Oracle actually cares about.

--
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
1. Re:potential fruits? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 05:15 · Score: 0
  
  How are these "potential fruits" going to help Oracle? I ask because that's the only thing Oracle actually cares about.
  Perhaps they are looking at the disaster of Solaris and realizing the danger of keeping technology too close.
Re:Because they're getting their asses handed to t by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 15:25 · Score: 0

What about React?
Oracle has no interest in doing "the right thing" by gavron · 2017-09-02 15:26 · Score: 4, Insightful

Public corporations tend to do things to benefit themselves. Oracle fought to get APIs covered by copyright -- and won. That's a step backward in the US software world in an amazing amount. Yes, the court didn't make Google pay because fair-use, but fair-user is judged on a case-by-case basis _at trial_. So going forward, because of Oracle's greed and unbending desire to control all of Java everything (and Android) all software developers in the US have this API pitfall to watch out for.
Second, even if there is no direct benefit, there's no indirect benefit to Oracle to open-source Java (or anything). So long as they can extract complex licensing and other fees from everyone wanting to use Java (EE) or the JDK or the API... that's exactly how they work.
Oracle wants to dominate The Market, All Markets, and Larry Ellison has an ego to rival anyone. Unfortunately people with large egos are unable to make decisions that benefit anyone other than themselves.
E
Plenty of facts by HBI · 2017-09-02 15:27 · Score: 1

Java is disappearing from military and corporate requirements.
US Army mandate to write all new code in Java ended a few years ago.
It's going away. Really. It's time to learn a new language, for those who can. Unless you like being in dead-end support jobs for the next 20-30 years. Ask your COBOL forebears how much they liked that.

--
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
1. Re:Plenty of facts by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 15:44 · Score: 0
  
  Java is disappearing from military and corporate requirements.
  US Army mandate to write all new code in Java ended a few years ago.
  It's going away. Really. It's time to learn a new language, for those who can. Unless you like being in dead-end support jobs for the next 20-30 years. Ask your COBOL forebears how much they liked that.
  Well if Cobol is anything to go by, I'd say they'd like it pretty well. Cobol paychecks are nothing to sneer at.
  IBM has built its fortune on keeping dead software systems alive via hardware/software virtualization.
  They did it for Cobol, and they'll do it for Java. The good and competent (ie not bottom of the barrel indians) Java developers have nothing to fear for the next 3 decades and more.
2. Re: Plenty of facts by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 16:13 · Score: 0
  
  I would hope everyone knows more than one language already.
3. Re:Plenty of facts by mean+pun · 2017-09-02 21:35 · Score: 1
  
  Really. It's time to learn a new language, for those who can.
  Such as? Yes, there are a few potential successors, such as Rust or Scala, but none of them is a breakthrough language.
4. Re: Plenty of facts by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 04:25 · Score: 0
  
  The only one that matters. Ingrischen.
5. Re: Plenty of facts by Miamicanes · 2017-09-03 04:49 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  The main problem with Scala is that it enables experienced Scala developers to write idiomatic code that's utterly indecipherable by anyone besides other, comparably-sophisticated Scala developers who've internalized that same idiom.
  With Java, a less-experienced Java developer can still generally make sense of code that's above his skill level and eventually figure out how it works. With Scala, a less-experienced developer is just plain dead in the water because Scala allows *so much* to be implicitly defined by context & convention.
  IntelliJ's Scala team is painfully aware of this. For years, they've been trying to mitigate Scala's problem at the IDE level by having the IDE sniff out code idioms defined by convention & context and display them semi-inline with the code itself. It helps, but in many cases it's more like fragile training wheels subject to breaking off at any time. And it makes Scala even more IDE-bound than Java... with Java, a good IDE is necessary for keeping sane & grunt-work automation... with Scala, it's an almost-essential part of deciphering code written by someone else *at all.* It's very hard to join a team of experienced Scala devs as an experienced Java developer and work efficiently alongside them... the Java-to-Scala learning curve is nowhere close to being as straightforward as most people initially think.
  In short, Scala attempts to resolve Java's endless boilerplate code that needs an IDE for humans to manage efficiently with dense, idiomatic code that needs an IDE (doing de-facto realtime-decompilation & reverse-engineering) to be understood by humans.
  With a good IDE, both meet somewhere near the middle of the "source readability" spectrum. My point is that Scala trades one major shortcoming (excessive boilerplate) for one that's approximately equal in magnitude, but opposite in details.
  In theory, a good Scala developer can find a "happy middle path" that straightens up Java's boilerplate mess without becoming unreadable... but in the real world, Scala tends to just invert the old problem into an equally-bad new one.
6. Re:Plenty of facts by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 10:32 · Score: 0
  
  Try Kotlin. JVM language, created by JetBrains, 100% Java interop (used the Java stdlib with some sugar wrapping), feels like a scripting language but is strongly statically typed (with type inference).
  It's like a new Java with a modern, pragmatic syntax, without the old boilerplate. And it seems to be picking up steam: official Android language, Spring support, Gradle will support it as build script language.
  The only negative I heard about it is: if you're really into Scala, Kotlin has fewer "functional" features. But as a Java replacement, it's great.
7. Re:Plenty of facts by david_thornley · 2017-09-05 08:08 · Score: 1
  
  If you haven't learned a new language, do so. Learn several new languages with different concepts while you're at it (not simultaneously), so you're reasonably familiar with the ideas behind the next big thing, whatever that is.
  
  --
  "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Not a moron to face facts by HBI · 2017-09-02 15:28 · Score: 1

If you want to do new, cool stuff, you're not doing it in Java.

--
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
1. Re: Not a moron to face facts by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 16:05 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Netflix's backend is Java, among others. Java 8 / Spring Boot / Hibernate / Hysterix / Eureka is an extremely capable setup.
  Java EE and JSP is old and shitty, but it doesn't mean all of Java is.
2. Re:Not a moron to face facts by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 20:12 · Score: 0
  
  Tell that to Atlassian for example.
3. Re: Not a moron to face facts by orlanz · 2017-09-02 22:28 · Score: 2
  
  Oh god! It would be so nice if people would do less cool new stuff! These days it feels like people barely know how to code. The end result is a "good enough" product that no one maintains. If there is a customer complaint, they patch it.
  That's it. People work on "cool new stuff" and patches. No one seems to work on the stuff that people are actually using and is actually important.
4. Re:Not a moron to face facts by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 02:59 · Score: 0
  
  ah yes this "cool new stuff", the 0.00012846% of whats actually going on in Enterprise IT.
No upside in this by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 15:46 · Score: 0

Ceding control would only attract the scum who want to damage Java and create a string of compatibility issues from now to eternity. There is a certain value to saying 'Java is just about complete, and any changes should have compelling reasons' and trying to enforce that, rather than letting the language morons water it down with crap. Protecting the industry's investment in Java software is a worthy goal and should be worth billions to Oracle alone.
Re:Because they're getting their asses handed to t by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 16:44 · Score: 0

What about React?
Angular people don't like to talk about it because it's a better idea and they have no answer to it.
Leave it for dead by Billly+Gates · 2017-09-02 18:03 · Score: 4, Interesting

Let it go. Java had it's day in the sun during the .com era (no pun intended). It failed after Sun struck out bigtime on what could have been and the biggest thing in quite some time. .NET is taking over large scale stuff, and newer node.js, angular, and even Python for the small to medium projects. Java is outdated and Sun and then Oracle left it out to rot by not making native compilers and obsessing over making it work with Solaris and forcing developers not to do win32 only. Meanwhile Python for some reason doesn't have this problem.
It is legacy and a security risk and will never have a native look and feel and compiler. c# is what Java could have been and keeps getting innovations like Linq and generics (I might be outdated as I haven't touched Java in 10 years on generics). Let it die we have other newer things now.

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http://saveie6.com/
1. Re:Leave it for dead by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 19:31 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Native look and feel? Java's place is on the server. It's fucking huge there and going nowhere. This is where real software runs and where 'newer' things are not valued unless they're so much better than what they're replacing that it's worth the effort, which it hardly ever is. Java replaced COBOL here. Nothing else is even on the horizon right now.
2. Re: Leave it for dead by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-02 19:50 · Score: 1
  
  Ssshhh, let them think it's dead. That way I can keep my prices up. They probably don't release the android apps they use everyday or the services they access are written in Java.
3. Re:Leave it for dead by angel'o'sphere · 2017-09-02 20:35 · Score: 2
  
  There is no alternative to Java.
  Native compilation is completely irrelevant as VMs have jit compilers.
  It wil probabaly be a decade or more than C++ has the tools and libraries Java has, based on LLVM.
  As most Java code is enterprise Java running oa backend, native lok and feel is irrlevant.
  It is overrated anyway, which you would know if you looked at a typical windows PC. Java running on it mostly looks native, and better than a legacy native app from one or two windows versions before. The ugliest applications on Windows are not Java or other non native applications but native applications where the orogrammers did not care about standards or used their own widget sets.
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
4. Re:Leave it for dead by Pseudonym · 2017-09-02 21:30 · Score: 2
  
  It wil probabaly be a decade or more than C++ has the tools and libraries Java has, based on LLVM.
  Nobody seriously thinks that Java and C++ are competitors.
  
  --
  sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
5. Re:Leave it for dead by tomhath · 2017-09-03 00:25 · Score: 1
  
  Other than the part about .Net I agree with what you said. But Java has a lot of momentum with companies like Oracle and IBM behind it, so it'll be around for a while as it becomes less and less relevant.
6. Re:Leave it for dead by Billly+Gates · 2017-09-03 00:35 · Score: 1
  
  Other than the part about .Net I agree with what you said. But Java has a lot of momentum with companies like Oracle and IBM behind it, so it'll be around for a while as it becomes less and less relevant.
  Yeah for legacy. No new projects use it. COBOL is still big too and will never die. But my point is lets make it legacy as both COBOL and Java did not keep up and earned their spots
  
  --
  http://saveie6.com/
7. Re:Leave it for dead by MightyMartian · 2017-09-03 03:32 · Score: 1
  
  I have no idea what you mean by "no new projects". Java is massive in the enterprise world, and I've seen no indication that it is merely in maintenance mode. Being a decent Java programmer will keep you employed for many years to come. I realize it's very faddish to declare Java dead, or at least rotting, but it is an absurd claim not backed up by any actual evidence at all.
  
  --
  The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
8. Re:Leave it for dead by MightyMartian · 2017-09-03 03:35 · Score: 2
  
  You're kidding right? .NET is a Windows ecosystem that marginally runs on Linux of late. There's a massive ecosystem of enterprise Java systems out there that Microsoft could only wish it would touch. And that's not counting Android.
  You're living in a fantasy if you think C# is actually competing with Java where Java is dominant.
  
  --
  The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
9. Re:Leave it for dead by tomhath · 2017-09-03 04:48 · Score: 1
  
  New projects continue use it if they're outsourced to big contractors like the ones I already mentioned (IBM, Accenture, Oracle, etc.) because they have legions of programmers who don't know anything else and massive investments in server side tools they charge absurd license fees on.
10. Re:Leave it for dead by angel'o'sphere · 2017-09-03 08:50 · Score: 1
  
  As soon as we have byte code morphing, augmentation, aspect oriented programming on LLVM based environments, they will be again.
  And I happy jump back to C++ when it has that, e.g. reflection, serialization etc.
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
11. Re:Leave it for dead by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 09:48 · Score: 0
  
  .NET is taking over large scale stuff, and newer node.js, angular
  Funny that the one .Net web project I ran into used all three of those ( with typescript ) . Trying to build it on mono only gave me a link to the required Microsoft tools, all Windows only at the time. Also fuck that tower of Babylon of languages, the project should have been a simple cross platform UI using a single language. Of course .Net is by its own creation not portable so the poor fuck who choose to use .Net had to use a web browser to get a portable UI that would work as expected on every platform.
12. Re:Leave it for dead by Pseudonym · 2017-09-03 10:45 · Score: 1
  
  Maybe in niche environments. For most software for which C++ is the language of choice, Java isn't a realistic option.
  This is a strict subset of all software, of course. My point is that Java and C++ don't play in the same spaces for the most part. Desktop apps are probably the only area of significant overlap.
  
  --
  sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
13. Re:Leave it for dead by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 12:34 · Score: 0
  
  I'm struggling to find some sense in this post, but I can't. Literally nothing in it is true.
  Java's rise was almost entirely AFTER the .com era (and there is no pun in there, intended or otherwise.) .NET is not a player in the spaces Java currently occupies, though Node.js is certainly taking a segment of the market. Native compilers exist, but don't make much sense since JITs are so good these days. JITs are native compilers, they just operate very late :)
  Nobody in the Java world cares about win32. Maybe you are focusing on the desktop? Hmm...
  Python doesn't have the problems Java does because it's a different environment. Similar idea (VM runtime) but horrible performance. The only thing saving Python is bindings to libraries written in C.
  C# will never have the market share of Java for a number of reasons, mostly due to the fact that Microsoft spent several decades convincing their developer communities that open source was bad for them. Meanwhile Java took over the world with a core language and runtime developed by Sun, and a huge ecosystem of open source components that rivaled (even at the time) commercial libraries.
  Big Data is Java. No way of getting around it, and nobody is going to bother competing with any of the tools that are already available. They are thoroughly entrenched.
14. Re:Leave it for dead by angel'o'sphere · 2017-09-04 01:15 · Score: 1
  
  Right now as the world is going, that is right.
  But there is nothing fundamentally wrong with using Java in *some* embedded environments, as car entertainment/radio, or use C++ in internet backends.
  C++ basically only lacks frameworks and because Java already has them, no one has the intention to build some.
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
15. Re:Leave it for dead by david_thornley · 2017-09-05 08:24 · Score: 1
  
  C++ is like a straightedge razor, while Java is like scissors with rounded ends. C++ requires experienced people and Java really doesn't.
  
  --
  "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
16. Re:Leave it for dead by angel'o'sphere · 2017-09-05 22:54 · Score: 1
  
  Both require experienced people.
  In Java simple things are simpler than in C++, however as soon as you make software for a living there is lots of stuff to learn and know on the Java side as well, e.g. annotation based frameworks, dependency injection, aspect oriented programming etc. p.p.
  I don't think that C++ is particular more complicated with modern language features (STL/boost etc.)
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
If Oracle cedes control of Java SE by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 04:12 · Score: 0

then it will cut its spending on Java. Unless IBM or Google step up the plate, Java may die.
Sun Down by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 10:03 · Score: 0

Uncle Larry's track record for destroying companies remains unblemished. He bought Sun, stunted MySQL, poisoned Java, killed SPARC and hardly seems to have noticed that his investment has yielded declining returns from day one. Now Oracle's mass-layoff of the remnants of Sun is nigh. He knows to price of everything but the value of nothing.
Java, who? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 11:04 · Score: 0

Java has been dead for a while now. No one that matters cares.
Re: Because they're getting their asses handed to by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-03 11:21 · Score: 0

All your product belong to Facebook
Re:Because they're getting their asses handed to t by sg_oneill · 2017-09-03 16:03 · Score: 1

by Node.js and Angular for anything besides the odd query to a database here and there?
Awwwwwww, the graphic designer has a technical opinion. Keep up the good work! Have an encouragement ribbon.

--
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
Re:Oracle has no interest in doing "the right thin by david_thornley · 2017-09-05 08:21 · Score: 1

APIs are creative products in a lasting form, and hence are copyrightable by pretty much all copyright law.
Not even Larry Ellison argued that there are any restrictions to using a published API to write software that interfaces with the API. The Java APIs can be used to write implementations of the APIs or to be called by other software. At least US copyright law is very clear on this: copyright can't be used to stop people from doing something. Everyone in the case where Oracle sued Google agrees on that, and the appeal court noted that specifically.
Oracle's claim was that Google used the APIs not for interoperability of software (perfectly legal) but to present developers with a familiar API rather than making them learn a new one. By their argument, nobody would be writing Dalvik libraries that would be useful for regular Java programming, and nobody would be writing Android apps that called regular Java libraries, and that the only reason Google used them was because they were familiar.

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"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Kotlin by Anonymous Coward · 2017-09-05 11:11 · Score: 0

I've used Java, Scala, C#, and many other languages in various jobs. So, I'm far from an expert in any of them. I haven't yet used Kotlin, but it seems like Intellij's attempt to answer the issues mentioned above. It brings in C#'s extension classes to handle a lot of what Scala would do with implicits. I loved that feature in C#. C#'s awesome Linq DSL is built upon it.
Java is simple in the beginning. But, IMO, it eventually becomes more complex than the others. Over years, Java code takes on the complexity of Spring / Guice, JPA, Jackson, and numerous other annotation-heavy, reflection-based dynamic programming solutions. Or (worse), it tries to fulfill the needs those provide with custom solutions which grow until they're riddled with bug-prone inconsistencies. In the long run, dealing with large amounts of bloated, copy-paste, inconsistent, poorly documented, custom implementations is harder than dealing with the initial learning curve of a nice DSL -- even if that DSL is implemented in Java via ugly annotations and obscure run time proxy classes.
As example among many, creating a simple POJO in Java often means creating custom getter, setter, toString, equals, and hashCode implementations. This is so common that every major IDE includes code generators which make it easy to create these. But, that generated code can be modified. So, maintaining that POJO forever requires future developers to pay attention to the generated code. IMO, hiding the boilerplate behind language features (or even Lombok annotations) is preferable.
JPA is a more sophisticated example of a Java DSL. Raw JDBC seems preferable at first. But, that road can eventually lead to an even bigger mess. A DSL comes with a learning curve which impedes development in the beginning (especially when the DSL is implemented in Java), but the alternatives aren't pretty in the long run.