North Korea Is Dodging Sanctions With a Secret Bitcoin Stash (bloomberg.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Bloomberg: North Korea appears to be stepping up efforts to secure bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, which could be used to avoid trade restrictions including new sanctions approved by the United Nations Security Council. Hackers from Kim Jong Un's regime are increasing their attacks on cryptocurrency exchanges in South Korea and related sites, according to a new report from security researcher FireEye Inc. They also breached an English-language bitcoin news website and collected bitcoin ransom payments from global victims of the malware WannaCry, according to the researcher. Kim's apparent interest in cryptocurrencies comes amid rising prices and popularity. The same factors that have driven their success -- lack of state control and secretiveness -- would make them useful fund raising and money laundering tools for a man threatening to use nuclear weapons against the U.S. With tightening sanctions and usage of cryptocurrencies broadening, security experts say North Korea's embrace of digital cash will only increase. The 15-member Security Council on Monday approved sanctions aimed at punishing North Korea for its latest missile and nuclear tests. U.S. officials said the new measures would cut the country's textile exports by 90 percent, restricting its ability to get hard currency.

Comments

This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

This is precisely why cryptocurrency was invented - to skirt the law and avoid moral responsibilities. Its sole purpose is as an enabler of criminal activity.

Just fucking ban this fake monopoly money bullshit already.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Air-conditioned cowh]

So the banks that govern our fiat currencies have "moral responsibilities" do they? Actually, no, they don't at all. This is precisely why cryptocurrency was invented.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[GLMDesigns]

I guess you haven't read any of the cryptocurrency White Papers, or the tons of articles and books discussing the problems of a central authority which devalues currency and the resulting inflation.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[geekmux]

This is precisely why cryptocurrency was invented - to skirt the law and avoid moral responsibilities. Its sole purpose is as an enabler of criminal activity.

Just fucking ban this fake monopoly money bullshit already.

I'll support this mentality right after I see CEOs of banks behind bars for skirting laws and violating moral responsibilities.

The corrupt Financial Industrial Complex is the real reason cryptocurrency was invented and continues to be justified.

Re: This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[spikenerd]

Please leave, we don't want your racist kind here.

I'm seriously struggling to figure out if that was sarcasm or if society has degraded to the point where people can no longer sense hypocrisy in their own voices. Let's all review the levels of argument, shall we?

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[jenningsthecat]

This is precisely why cryptocurrency was invented - to skirt the law and avoid moral responsibilities. Its sole purpose is as an enabler of criminal activity.

Just fucking ban this fake monopoly money bullshit already.

Found the government shill!

I'd point out the fallacies in your 'argument', but they're so obvious that I won't bother, since you've already drunk the Kool-Aid and had that little mind of yours permanently made up for you.

Re: This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you don't seem to know, there's been a spree of Anonymous Cowards randomly posting these insults to the first-posts of lots of discussions lately.

I would not qualify it as sarcasm, but describe it as trolling, with some caveats, namely that it seems to be based on the idea that since people have been called Neo-Nazis, and these Anonymous Cowards believe that to be an illegitimate and random act, they will simply engage in such random acts themselves.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[courteaudotbiz]

The corrupt Financial Industrial Complex is the real reason cryptocurrency was invented and continues to be justified.

And the real reason why the governments will want it to stay in place is full traceability. Yes, for now, BTC is totally anonymous. But wait till the governments put their nose into it, and require all wallet holders to be IDd. Then ALL the transactions you will ever have done in your life can be tied to you.

I want to still be able to use paper money, and they will make it more and more difficult to use it.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[geekmux]

The corrupt Financial Industrial Complex is the real reason cryptocurrency was invented and continues to be justified.

And the real reason why the governments will want it to stay in place is full traceability. Yes, for now, BTC is totally anonymous. But wait till the governments put their nose into it, and require all wallet holders to be IDd. Then ALL the transactions you will ever have done in your life can be tied to you. I want to still be able to use paper money, and they will make it more and more difficult to use it.

With the amount of surveillance in the world today, not even paper money transactions should be considered private or anonymous.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Opportunist]

Yeah, cash can't be used for this.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Opportunist]

What wallet? I have no wallet that I could ID.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

That is a double-edged sword. The same argument can be said about banning physical cash.

Realistically, it might make it a tad less easy for DPRK to move money (they do have physical ships, and if drug dealers can move stuff via autonomous submarines, then DPRK with their tech can easily move stuff.) However, the people really affected by bans on cash and currency are people like us.

Who do I fear more. The local government and Crown Court versus Kim? Goes without saying... Kim isn't going to grab me off the street and lock me up for the rest of my life under RIPA because I might disagree with politics.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

The correct term is pseudonymous.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[GLMDesigns]

First of all the blockchain is NOT truly anonymous. It is, after all, a ledger of financial transactions. Each, and every, transaction is recorded and saved forever.

BTC is not very effective for evading sanctions except on a very small scale. BTC is excellent for transmitting assets from one place to another; it's excellent for proving ownership of an asset. It is not useful in transporting goods on a large scale to a specific location.

The US government probably would have no problem with Kim buying all sorts of things from Walmart or GE. It would have a problem with Walmart or GE sending said goods to North Korea. See the difference?

BTC doesn't help with that problem.

And, in case it matters, the sanctions include Britain, France, Russia and China.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[ctilsie242]

Problem is that Bitcoin gives absolute tracability. If your wallet is known, every transaction you have ever done is public record. Yes, you can play shell games with tumbling (and hope the exchange doesn't just run off with your currency) or multiple wallets, but eventually, the wallets will be attributed to the person, and the transactions easily traced, with criminal/civil proceedings following.

It would be nice for a cryptocurrency to have more anonymity. That way, if someone is running for office, a transaction made 25 years ago for a lid of Mary Jane isn't dug up and used by the opposing candidate.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what cash (crypto or non-crypto) was invented for in the first place.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Applehu Akbar]

Given the current bubblicious trading in BTC, one strategy for our intelligence agencies might be to assist in the pump-and-dump, leaving Weird Fat Kid as the last fool to be holding a hard drive full of devalued tulip bits.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Big Hairy Ian]

And when the BitCoin bubble bursts they'll be no better off than when they started

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[courteaudotbiz]

With the amount of surveillance in the world today, not even paper money transactions should be considered private or anonymous.

Still, there are ways. With cryptocurrencies, there may be none.

Re: This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Archangel Michael]

Well, IMHO the cry of Racism is so over used, that it has lost all meaning, to the point where Charlottesville violence was initially panned by a lot of people (including me). Crying wolf works until it doesn't, and we have actually reached that point.

And you are probably right, that it was sarcastic trolling, but there is a very real chance it wasn't. And that doubt is telling.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Archangel Michael]

Announcer: "How Many Joints do you get out of a lid?"
Game Show Contestant: "One" ...

Announcer: "Our judges say ...'that is correct!'!!!"

Re: This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

That's exactly what an alt right Nazi would say.

Why do you hate women?

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Do you have tires on your car? With perhaps tire pressure sensors broadcasting an id to anybody who is listening on the side of the road?

I'm still waiting, but potentially automated speed traps are possible with this tech.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[IMightB]

WTF, BTC, has never been anonymous, that is simply not a claim that the creators ever claimed. It's something that people that don't understand it or intentionally misinterpret it claim.

Re: This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, IMHO the cry of Racism is so over used, that it has lost all meaning...

That's probably the point. There has been a sustained, multi-year online PSYOP attack perpetrated by foreign agents against the American people, and it looks like you've completely fallen for it.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[rgbatduke]

As Old Ben Kanobi once said, "It's been a long time since I heard that name..."

Lids, heh, lids...

Re: This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

This. Bitcoin is as far from anonymous it gets, it literally tracks every transaction ever made, all you have to do is find anyone in the transaction log and beat them with a wrench until you get the person you're looking to find with trails of exchanges sprinkled throughout, it's laughably identifiable to the point anyone claiming "x used bitcoin to" can readily have that claim verified or rejected by anyone from the highest government hacker organizations to that lowest scriptkiddie screaming at his mom to bring him hotpockets.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[thegarbz]

Its sole purpose is as an enabler of criminal activity.

So in order to enable North Korea's criminal activity show me where they intend to convert the bitcoin to products services or internationally tradeable currency for the purposes of circumventing the sanctions.

People like you and the author of the article are so focused on the what that they forget about the more important factor: how.

Unless fat Kimmy is buying uranium in bitcoin now all he's doing is building up a stash of worthless bits he can't convert to anything usable without being stuck by the same sanctions and raising the same interest of law enforcement as if they were trying to smuggle in real cash or goods.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[sabri]

I'm still waiting, but potentially automated speed traps are possible with this tech.

No need to wait. Europa has had them for years.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't read anything. The blockchain is public record. If anything, it makes criminal transactions easier to track and definitely puts a damper on money laundering (once you attach a name to any transaction, the anonymity is gone daddy gone).

People don't understand the technology yet and are a bit intimidated by it, just as it was in the early days of email. They'll catch on.

Blockchain technology is going to transform the world in better and more profound ways than the Internet itself did, and it's going to do it in the next ten years.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not "totally anonymous." Every single transaction is a matter of public record. The wallet ID can be associated with a person or entity with very little work.

It's a vastly improved form of money that cuts out the middle man (banks). You can send a million dollars worth of Bitcoin pretty much instantly and with a mining charge of $5 as opposed to paying a bank $15-20k and waiting days for the transaction to clear. The banks are against it because it's going to eat up a huge chunk of their business -- already is, actually. More money changes hands in Bitcoin than in PayPal now.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

Cash comes with huge liabilities too. Stigmitization. Only criminals and poor people use cash. Civil forfeiture is also frequently abused and there is nothing you can do about it.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, just wait until you see what Enceladus has..

Re: This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, IMHO the cry of Racism is so over used, that it has lost all meaning, to the point where Charlottesville violence was initially panned by a lot of people (including me).

Well, IMHO, the denial of racism and bigotry is so widespread by people for whom such a defense is blatantly false that it has developed a new meaning, to the point where Donald Trump's response to the Charlottesville incident was mistaken and ill-advised.

Crying wolf works until it doesn't, and we have actually reached that point.

Yes, crying wolf about being called "Nazi" has reached that point of not working.

It especially doesn't work when you remember this.

And you are probably right, that it was sarcastic trolling, but there is a very real chance it wasn't. And that doubt is telling.

Nope, the doubt is not useful for what you want it to be, though your decision that it is, is a telling factor, as you are endorsing a view simply because it supports your position. My estimation is that there is no reason for an informed person to believe it is anything other than the subterfuge of trolls who want to create an atmosphere of dis-credibility. Really, for all we know, you posted it yourself to have your own justification.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[codebonobo]

But wait till the governments put their nose into it, and require all wallet holders to be IDd. Then ALL the transactions you will ever have done in your life can be tied to you.

This is unenforceable. Bitcoin users can have billions of "accounts" and most wallets change the address (account) with each transaction for privacy. Some new changes already in use as we speak add much higher privacy to bitcoin. Lightning network payment channels with onion routing default with no recorded tx history on the blockchain, confidential transactions, mimblewimble, cross atomic swaps , all make chain analysis obsolete.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

Not gonna happen that way. Math. It's going up, up, up and can't be stopped.

Re: This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[eaglesrule]

I'm seriously struggling to figure out if that was sarcasm or if society has degraded to the point where people can no longer sense hypocrisy in their own voices.

Here, let me introduce you to The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies which I think should be mandatory reading before engaging in online discussion. This document outlines various methods that could be used to derail statements made by the GP when he said:

So the banks that govern our fiat currencies have "moral responsibilities" do they? Actually, no, they don't at all. This is precisely why cryptocurrency was invented.

My guess is the term 'fiat currrency' is what triggered the AC troll or bot to attempt to shift the subject. Seems like it worked.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[mysidia]

Each, and every, transaction is recorded and saved forever.

I wouldn't be so sure about "forever". Human civilization has been around a tiny fraction equal to about 0% of "forever".

Even if the blockchain gets preserved permanently somehow --- the actual details of each of those trades will probably be long gone in a hundred years or so.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[CrimsonAvenger]

With the amount of surveillance in the world today, not even paper money transactions should be considered private or anonymous.

Good rule of thumb: if there are two people involved, it's probably not private or anonymous. But it might be.

If there are three or more involved, it's definitely not private or anonymous.

Note that this rule applies throughout history, and probably well back into prehistory.

Re: This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

Monero, Dash, Zcash, Aeon, Verge, Cloak coin and others all have anonymous transactions. Bitcoin doesn't. Ethereum doesn't. The Danish police developed methods for tracking Bitcoin transactions.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[mikael]

They already have automatic speed traps using dopper radar. Others use mean time to travel between two points. If the two stations are a mile apart, the speed limit is 60 miles hour, then if you cross between those two points in less than a minute, you must have been speeding.

Re: This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah as part of a multi pronged approach. Asics for mining cryptonight geared towards server racks would be a good game for them too. But that would cost them $ so they might not bother.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

Traveling faster than the speed of light will have the time wardens issue you with a ticket in many parts of the universe.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[angel'o'sphere]

BTC never was anonymous,
It is fully traceable.

Hence the break downs on Silk something and others

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[angel'o'sphere]

I was about to say centuries to emphasize your point, but well, 50 years? Minimum? Perhaps 70 years?

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[angel'o'sphere]

Would it not be more reasonable to "legalize it", or stop being hypocrites about stuff that was 25 years ago?

Re: This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

Back in my day a lid was 2 fingers . Scales, we didn't need no stinking scales.

Re: This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

This. Bitcoin is as far from anonymous it gets, it literally tracks every transaction ever made, all you have to do is find anyone in the transaction log and beat them with a wrench until you get the person you're looking to find...

Regardless of what the inventors ever claimed, the definition of "laughingly identifiable" is not having to beat random people with a fucking wrench in order to trace or find a transaction, especially when the same type of assault has been used to trace cash transactions.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[GLMDesigns]

I stand corrected. The transactions are most definitely not saved forever :)

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

Financial Political Complex, not industrial. Wall Street deals in virtual objects, not physical ones. And Wall Street would have been destroyed in its present form if politicians hadn't moved to bail it out.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Swave An deBwoner]

They apparently trade with some nations:

The top export destinations of North Korea are China ($2.34B), India ($97.8M), Pakistan ($43.1M), Burkina Faso ($32.8M) and Other Asia ($26.7M). The top import origins are China ($2.95B), India ($108M), Russia ($78.2M), Thailand ($73.8M) and the Philippines ($53.2M).

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/prk

Re: This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering we're seeing a lot more racist shit lately, like a racist fucking president elected by a bunch of fucking racists and retards, its only natural the cry of racism increases in frequency.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

The math problem has already been solved. Look up zcash. Zero Coin is the protocol that is capable of making crypto currencies anonymous. No more mixers or laundering required. Well, technically you still probably need to launder if your operating a criminal enterprise because you have to identify the source of funds. You can't just put down 'selling illegal drugs' when you report on your taxes. And you do want to report the funds because otherwise you'll get flagged when you purchase property and other high end shit. Though you can probably setup an overseas shell corporation to do it. Your still going to need to pay property taxes and that might send up a red flag. I know tax payments from overseas bank accounts are marked as when I filed sales taxes in NJ it asked the question of "is this coming from an overseas bank account?".

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

We should probably just ban the entire internet too. Because there are some pretty illegal and unethical things on there. In fact, just shut down all of Youtube, all of your email, and all of Facebook. Don't worry. You won't miss it much anyway. Because it's bad for you.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

But we're not allowed to land there.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[OrangeTide]

With central banking, there is a moderate amount of transparency and regulation. The same can't be said for crypto-currency.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[OrangeTide]

Is this a rhetorical device? or are you the tool?

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't understand how it works. A wallet isn't an account you open with bitcoin.com, it's just a collection of keys. You can generate a valid private key off-line, without anyones permission or even their knowledge.

When a transaction is sent to an address there isn't any way to know if that is owned by the original sender, a new receiver, a sentient AI, or other. Similarly, one a key is generated there is no way to know if it's still possessed by the original owner, a new owner, or nobody.

I could send you bitcoins, or maybe I sent them to myself, or maybe I simply handed you a paper wallet and those coins never "moved" according to the blockchain. Maybe the private key was lost or destroyed, maybe it's sitting in your safe deposit box for years before being sent to some new address. Maybe we swapped offline wallets one-for-one.

It's true that you can often link transactions to identities. But it's not assured. And there are lots of schemes that obscure things. It's similar to tracing cash transactions by keeping track of the serial numbers on the bills.

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[maelkum]

This is why I am sceptical of the various cryptcurrencies.

Re: This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[KingBenny]

m hm , i have noticed and im sure we're not the only once, it started to boom around the last american elections, you need to skim the top on most topics b/c half of it turns racial slur in five posts no matter the subject. In this case from bitcoin to racism in three i think ?
but myeah indeed it reeks of "aHA, finally the ultimate reason to criminalize crypto"
the point as always is control, not crime ... and if you really think satoshi and his shadow-ninja team did it to enable the rise of the next cartel you should think again, besides, any group with that amount of money doesnt use cryptos , the datastorm they would create shipping billions around would immediately stand out in any blockchain. Neither al capone, nor escobar or the cosa nostra got rich on crypto, they got rich on dollars .. and what's more, since you can't really eat bitcoin, then mister Soong will still have to exchange the virtual for real currency, ergo whats the point if thats what's being blocked ?
and also how many times have the united lobbies responded with sanctions so far ? and how many times has that not resulted in double up instead of tone down. I got a bad attitude myself when it comes to threats since i had too many in my life. I just go out and challenge, double up and back usually since i lost my give-a-frack a long time ago.
but (a lot of as inhere, né?) all these sanctions have but one effect. The 'people'
in the street are starving. The top layer doesn't even feel it. I think if the intention is to stir revolution by starving "the people" it would have happened by now, how long has this charade gone on. The united lobbies also have a bad habit of this "we are invincible so do as we say for it is us : the leaders of the free world" but it doesnt really work, does it ?
so, if this does anything then its globanks hacking down on crypto, and kim soong doubling up the effort to make sure everyone knows his nukes are real
i dont see that as good diplomacy, i see that as my balls are bigger so you have to give in and do as you're told while all those koreans who dont have a say get to starving and scrapping to survive
that's how i see it and check out team satoshi, those scruffy rats TRULY believed in a non-governed system ... which is , euhm ... well since the forking and stuff, somewhat undone b/c the whole premise was that was only gonna be an exact limited number, but with every fork that doubles, and so on, and on, and on
if the dude has real nuke and long distance missiles, why doesn't anyone take him seriously?
and i truly like slashdot for the freedom of speech take on all matter but seeing every post turn to racial slur in five is somewhat annoying really, cant you do that on four or eight or sixteenchan or something?

Re: This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[PlaynBass]

I have been called a troll so many times, I should be getting paid for all of my posts! LOL!

Re:This is why we need to criminalize CryptoCash

[unixisc]

This is precisely why cryptocurrency was invented - to skirt the law and avoid moral responsibilities. Its sole purpose is as an enabler of criminal activity.

Just fucking ban this fake monopoly money bullshit already.

If that's the case, why are companies like JP Morgan Chase and RBS using Ethereum as a blockchain in various projects?

How North Korea is getting around the sanctions is less important than the who is helping them do it. Aside from the often mentioned China, it's Iran - who has ready money for any nuclear technology that Pyongyang would be willing to give them - and Pakistan, who was one of the enablers of North Korea's nuclear program.

Depressing as it sounds particularly due to its potential fallout in Seoul, war seems to be almost inevitable in Korea right now. All the conversations about whether they can strike Guam or Seattle or Los Angeles is irrelevant: everybody knows that they can strike Seoul and aside from the Koreans, kill thousands of Americans, and not just troops on the DMZ. Congress needs to rescind the 80s law that bans assassinations of foreign leaders, and then the US needs to stage an internal coup to remove Kim Jong Un & family.

fake money, real goods

[supernova87a]

Regardless of the payment method, the problem is that goods are still physically flowing into NK, paid for. What is China / South Korea / Japan doing about those cargo ships or vessels supplying the regime, or the companies behind them?

Re:fake money, real goods

[Anonymous Coward]

They're going to send in the A-Team

Re:fake money, real goods

[Anonymous Coward]

Like it matters. The world of "make believe" is the only one where the US controls the border between Russia and North Korea. As it should be.

Why dont we just cut their fucking internet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously - with all this shit from the North, can't you simply refuse to provide transit to them?

If every ISP simply refused to carry any of their AS traffic, or those that supported them, it'd pretty soon sort things out.

Re:Why dont we just cut their fucking internet?

[Srin Tuar]

Because physically policing every boat is very expensive and would impede non-embargo traffic.

The bans work mostly via banking; If you cannot receive money for good shipped to NK, then you wont sell them product.

Without the ability to cheaply block the money, what you are left with is old fashioned embargoes; which are expensive and usually part of a lead up to military action.

Re:Why dont we just cut their fucking internet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Step 1. Find a geolocation database.
Step 2. Search for NK
Step 3. Scratch head wondering why NK has no entries
Step 4. Amaze yoursellf with all the entries that China has

Also note that NK operatives are around in all South East Asia. What's to say that they are not operating in Thailand, Myanmar or from an open Wifi in Sydney from a McDonalds parking lot.

Re:Why dont we just cut their fucking internet?

[infolation]

can't you simply refuse to provide transit to them?

Who is the 'we' and 'you' that your post refers to?

Because Nearly all of North Korea's Internet traffic is routed through China

So the pertinent question would be "can't we simply ask China to refuse to provide transit to them?" to which the answer would be 'yes', but in reality China would not cut off their internet access, in the same way they do not cut off their trade, or place any security or border controls on North Korea's northern border with China.

Re:Why dont we just cut their fucking internet?

[Opportunist]

There's a fun thing about the internet: You needn't be at home to order shit. I ordered stuff from Amazon while I was in the US and had it shipped home, they didn't even want to know why my IP address is a continent away from my shipping address...

Re:Why dont we just cut their fucking internet?

[angel'o'sphere]

they didn't even want to know why my IP address is a continent away from my shipping address...
And why would they?
It would completely spoil the idea of using the internet.

Sadly the streaming services did not get that yet.

Easy Fix

[Anonymous Coward]

Make Bitcoins illegal everywhere. That will take care of the issue.

Next week; make gasoline illegal because North Korea can use it to power military vehicles.

Re: Easy Fix

[Anonymous Coward]

Its obvious....Bitcoin will always be used by people who subvert the system to do illegal work. Anyone who uses them is in a way supporting them.

Re: Easy Fix

[Anonymous Coward]

Replace "BitCoin" with:
"Guns"
"Smuggled cigarettes"
"Prostitution"
"Casinos"
"Jeep Wrangler"
"Tor"
"Reddit"
"Cellphones"

Re:Easy Fix

[Opportunist]

There is one huge problem when you outlaw a currency: The shadow market doesn't give a shit about it. When I trade in illegal goods, why the hell should I care that the currency I trade it for is illegal, too?

If you want to see what this is like, ask anyone who was alive in an East Bloc country while it was still an East Bloc country. Old joke: How's GDR and FRG similar? You can get everything as long as you pay in D-Marks.

Just like it was required to have "West-Money" in the former East Bloc if you wanted to get anything that's short in supply, what we'll see is that you'll have to have the underground currency if you want something illegal. How do you get it? By doing something illegal for someone who has it. And now take a wild guess who has the most. And thus calls the shots.

In other words, all you do is hand more power to the mob.

Re: Easy Fix

[that this is not und]

If something becomes explicitly illegal, there is no body of 'legal use' for people making illicit use of it to hide within.

That is just common sense, although cryptocurrencies are a 'new paradigm' form of hype where common sense is ignored.

Re:Easy Fix

[dwillden]

Only if the currency still has value in some non-shadow environment. Your East Bloc Example fails because "West-Money" had value in purchasing things from West-Bloc countries. The currency was illegal for most to have and use in the East, but was fully valid and of value in the West and the East Bloc nations used the West money to buy needed stuff.

If Bitcoin were made illegal globally it would have no real value. No government would be seeking to accumulate and use it and no governments would back it. It might retain some value on the dark-web but as it would have no value on the light-web and real world it's value would be greatly diminished.

It takes something legitimate backing a currency to give it value. Precious metals are no longer used, instead it is the promises and stability of the governments that produce the cash currencies that ensure they have value. It's a weak system as the collapse of a government would render all currency issued by it as worthless. But it is more inherently stable than bitcoin which is supported by.....

Re:Easy Fix

[ftobin]

There is one huge problem when you outlaw a currency: The shadow market doesn't give a shit about it. When I trade in illegal goods, why the hell should I care that the currency I trade it for is illegal, too?

Liberty Dollar is dead.

Re: Easy Fix

[Anonymous Coward]

How, exactly, would it be made illegal? Are you trying to tell me I can't use my hard-earned dollars to buy Bitcoin? How would that work, exactly?

Re:Easy Fix

[angel'o'sphere]

D-Marks are actually still circulating in "the Ost Block", even as you can not simply convert them into Euro anymore since a few years.

Same for Franc in north Africa.

Re:Easy Fix

[angel'o'sphere]

It takes something legitimate backing a currency to give it value.
No it does not.

If we go together to a dinner, I can not pay my 25$ bill, and you step in, I write you an "I O U 25$, signed by Angel". And if it happens to happen that you run out of money and ask a friend, give him "our" "IOU" and he knows me and accepts it: that is money.

No one is backing it. Our common friend just trusted you/me the same way you trusted me.

But it is a kind of bad idea to hand over "I O U" cheques without kind of agreement of the issuer (that was me), could lead to lots of arguments :D

Anyway: money does not work the way you think. I suggest the books: "Money of the future" and "The future of money".

Re: Easy Fix

[that this is not und]

It is illegal for anybody except for the Federal Government to issue or coin a currency. If it's just tulip bulbs or some other item for speculation like the misnamed 'cryptocurrencies' it is not against that law, as we see in the current circumstances. Buy and sell your beanie babies, charizard cards, and cryptocurrencies as you like, as speculative items. Local and regional jurisdictions that have tried to introduce currencies have been shut down. There is plenty of legal precedent.

Re: Easy Fix

[Opportunist]

Ok, so bitcoins are no currency, what does it change?

"Oh, I sell this thingamajig here for thismany dollars. Or I'd also trade it for thatmany bitcoins".

See? It's no currency. It's barter trade. What did you accomplish as the government? Nothing. Well, maybe that it's harder to tax.

Re:Easy Fix

[Opportunist]

Money has value because someone else gives you something in return for it. That's basically the main reason money has purchasing power. That there is a government backing it and that there is an economy representing its value is for most people already too esoteric a concept to grasp. They accept USD, EUR, GBP, AUD and CAD in return for their goods and services because they in return expect to pay goods and services with that money.

It doesn't take anything legitimate to back a currency. What it takes is a market to back it. If you need cryptocurrency to get your files unlocked and if having some is the only way to do so, you suddenly have a lot of people who would want it, and would part with legal tender to get it. Now imagine what happens if the big druglords suddenly get the idea that they accept cryptocurrency, and only cryptocurrency, as payment for their dope.

They would start to control not only the supply but also the demand. They would control the cryptocurrency and they would also create a huge market for people wanting it. Is that what you want?

Re: Easy Fix

[Khyber]

"It is illegal for anybody except for the Federal Government to issue or coin a currency."

You better go tell that to Chuck E. Cheese. You're still swapping dollars for tokens, and those are definitely coins as they work in the coin-acceptors of arcade machines.

Re:Easy Fix

[Opportunist]

Huh? You can exchange any amount of D-Marks to Euros at all branches of the Deutsche Bundesbank.

The only bills and coins no longer honored are ancient and you probably can get more from collectors anyway.

Re: Easy Fix

[david_thornley]

It's perfectly legal. It just won't be legal tender. You can pay any US government anything you owe in dollars. Courts award judgments and impose fines in dollars. Debts are accounted in dollars. You're free to make any deals you like that don't involve illegal actions.

Re:Easy Fix

[angel'o'sphere]

You could.
Now you need an appointment and fill out a paper why you come so late with changing them.

The period where you simply could go to any bank to exchange DM for Euro, is over since over ten years.

Re:Easy Fix

[Opportunist]

You fill out a form and send it. No need to justify anything.

Shipping kills the deal

[mveloso]

You can pay in bitcoin, but you still have to pay shipping. How does that work?

Re:Shipping kills the deal

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought about this long and hard. Here's how I think it works: click for spoiler.

Re:Shipping kills the deal

[drinkypoo]

Presumably, the seller is willing to pay for the shipping in order to get your BTC.

Re:Shipping kills the deal

[Anonymous Coward]

Lord. Ship to a "safe" location. Somewhere in South Korea, Thailand, China,etc.
Accumnulate enough stuff.
Put in *shipping* containers.
Load *shipping* containers in ship.
Depart in an innocuous direction.
Inform NK that *ship* is on its way.
Don't blow ship out of the water.
Unload containers.
Rinse and repeat.

Another option is a land route through China. Truck or train. It's not like China is stopping any of this.

China

[Anonymous Coward]

N. Korea only exists because of China. MacArthur had the fucking N. Koreans almost off the map but the Chinese had to come in and save them and prop up the Kim regimes.

It is 100% China's fault that North Korea exists and pulls this shit. All they have to do is pull the rug out and N. Korea falls. Un wants to be the shit, China is perfectly capable of neutralizing him.

China wants to be a World power? Well, it's time they learn the burdens and responsibilities.

Otherwise, China can go fuck themselves.

Re:China

[Anonymous Coward]

China wants to be a World power? Well, it's time they learn the burdens and responsibilities.

Nonsense. China needs North Korea exactly because it wants to be a World power. It is a leverage on other countries.

Re:China

[Kierthos]

China is propping up North Korea because they want a buffer state in the way. They're not exactly pleased with Kim Jong Un's nuclear ambitions, but the last thing they want is a regime change to a more democratic model.

They're supporting the (somewhat watered down) sanctions that just passed the UN Security Council, and you damn well bet that there's some conversations going on between China and North Korea over this. But they still have to be careful about this because, as you may have noticed, North Korea doesn't have a history of stable reactions.

China has also said that if North Korea is preemptively attacked, they will honor their defense treaty with North Korea and assist them. Hopefully, Trump isn't stupid enough to test that. But China has also said that if North Korea starts anything (like attacking Guam), then they're on their own. Hopefully, Kim Jong Un isn't stupid enough to test that.

Re:China

[Kierthos]

Also, China really, really doesn't want a whole bunch of North Korea refugees fleeing over the border if North Korea gets attacked (preemptively or not), so they want to keep things calmed down.

Re:China

[Anonymous Coward]

Another reason they are propping them up is that if North Korea falls, it will mean millions of refugees headed in every direction, including China. Remember, North Korea is basically just a huge concentration camp.

As for "assist them", that's quite open. Will they be pissed off, sure. Shipping arms and munitions? Probably. Volonteers? Questionable. Outright war with South Korea and the US over North Korea? Not impossible but it would be very irrational. China today is not China in the 50's. Basically China has a lot to lose on that, not only in military terms but economical as well. It would be a huge mess that would wreak havoc on the world economy, and completely wreck the Chinese. No matter how much they'd hate to lose North Korea, they'd think long and hard before getting too serious about it.

Re:China

[UnknownSoldier]

> China is propping up North Korea because they want a buffer state in the way.

Indeed. The word is "plausible deniability"

China's excuse is "See, _we_ aren't the bad guys. N. Korea is."

> Hopefully, Trump isn't stupid enough to test that.
> Hopefully, Kim Jong Un isn't stupid enough to test that.

Hoping that two morons won't be stupid, is well, stupid.

WWW3 has already started. It just a matter of time before nukes get involved.

Re:China

[Anonymous Coward]

Realistically, the DPRK is a province of China. Kim's rockets? Chinese made. His nukes? Chinese. What keeps his country from imploding is China. This is because China can have the DPRK attack the US or the West, and then join on North Korea's side for WW3 when North Korea gets hit by retaliatory strikes. It is a smart move on China's part, since they can be aggressive and expansionistic (think Tibet), while not having it be obvious that they are itching to light up the Pacific Rim and settle old scores with Japan.

Re:China

[Kierthos]

Yeah, I remembered that 'refugees' point after I posted.

If North Korea is preemptively attacked, China's response will be based off of the nature of that attack. If it's just bombing runs on NK's nuclear and missile facilities, China's response will probably be in the nature of providing aerial support and anti-aircraft support.

If it's an escalated preemptive attack, China's response will also escalate. I'm hoping that with this latest batch of sanctions from the UN that it won't come to that, but we're literally operating with two attention-craving idiots who weren't hugged enough as kids running the U.S. and North Korea.

Re:China

[Anonymous Coward]

You misunderstand China. Refugees entering their country is not a problem. Refugees surviving being shot is another issue.

The biggest mistake you can make about China is thinking that they think like Westerners, Indians, Russians, or even Middle-Easterners. The Chinese government do not have the same scruples and ethics you assume other folks to have.

There is a glossy sheen over a nasty ball of ugly over there. I would trust the Russians 100 times more.

Re:China

[Kierthos]

I never said that they wouldn't deal with the refugees in their own way. But they don't want to even have that problem to deal with.

I don't believe for a second that China wouldn't restrict refugees from North Korea entering China, at the barrel of a gun, if they thought it necessary. But they would rather that refugees fleeing en masse from North Korea doesn't happen to begin with.

They will take whatever actions they find necessary to stop that from happening. Right now, those actions include supporting the recent sanctions that passed the UN Security Council.

The Russians have less to worry about in terms of refugees from North Korea simply because their border with North Korea is that much smaller. (~1400 km of border between NK and China, and ~17 km of border between NK and Russia.)

Re:China

[Anonymous Coward]

Gotcha; thanks for clarifying and apologies for making that assumption. Your points are quite valid. Ammo costs money after all and mass graves don't dig themselves (unless they get really macabre and have refugees do it themselves).

Re:China

[DontBeAMoran]

Otherwise, China can go fuck themselves.

Oh god please don't tell them that! There's already enough of them!

Re:China

[DontBeAMoran]

At least the two attention-craving idiots are similar in shade, being orange and yellow respectively.

Re:China

[Archangel Michael]

Define "preemptive" attack?

When Kim launches another ICBM over Japan, is that an act of war and can we respond or not?

If one suggests that a missile launch is not a threat or act of war, then nothing is. Especially considering the fact that Kim could be tipping that missile with nuclear bombs, we'd never know until it was too fucking late and Tokyo or Portland is an ash heap.

While I doubt Kim is that stupid, there is no indication that he is smart either.

Re:China

[RobinH]

That's interesting and somewhat explains the apparently provocative stance of the US. If they can provoke NK into acting, then the US can do something and China (supposedly) won't back NK.

Re: China

[fubarrr]

Why do you think so? China is not a country that can be bothered with refugees. China has a massive illegal immigration issue, yet Chicoms don't even think of that as bad, rather they find it amusing. Guangzhou will soon turn into a district of Mombasa, and Eastern Europeans will steal last engineering job from local specialists.

Re: China

[fubarrr]

Say that to an irrational mofo like Kim, Xi, or Putin.

Putin has zero problems shooting himself in the foot.

You need to be politically educated

Re:China

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

China is propping up North Korea because they want a buffer state in the way. They're not exactly pleased with Kim Jong Un's nuclear ambitions, but the last thing they want is a regime change to a more democratic model.

You are correct in your understanding of the situation. I'm not completely convinced that they would really go to North Korea's aid if the US preemptively attacked them. But it's not my decision to make.

I suspect Trump may be trying to broker Putin's help here. This may be a problem that Putin can't solve even if he wanted to. He said as much a few days ago. But Putin, like many Russians, sees the world as a zero sum game and he loves nothing more than to see chaos and disorder effect the USA so he can pose himself as a solution to it. To get Putin's help, the problem has to framed into a situation where Putin wins big time (prestige maybe) and Trump loses big time if Putin solves it. I'm not sure that Trump can agree to that price.

China doesn't see the world as zero sum, but I don't think they fear democracy on the border so much as they do fear US troops on the border in a unified Korea under South Korean rule. As Victor Cha points out in his excellent book, _The Impossible State_, China has less leverage than outsiders think but also more than they have been willing to use. To get China's help, the US has to frame this so that continuing makes China pay a price so high that they will see any alternative as better. There are ways the US could maybe make this kind of case, but will they? Don't know. But continuing in the present situation where North Korea flies missiles over Japan and eventually they will do that to Guam and they'll keep doing nuclear tests is not anything I would agree to accept if I was president. It's hard for me to think that most Chinese are going to be cool with their soldiers being killed to prop up North Korea. There's just not much support for North Korea in general in the Chinese public with the exception of the few, really hard core people who back everything the government does. Trump could potentially tell Xi that if North Korea is allowed to survive the US will pressure China constantly on Hong Kong (the Chinese government is not in compliance with some of the handover treaty) and Taiwan and push for overthrow of the CCP and generally make his life hell day in and day out for the party and its leaders. That might be another way to get China's support. But right now China sees the current situation as its best option, which means provocations will continue and escalate from North Korea.

Re: China

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's a mistake to lump the Chinese in there. Kim is what he is and Russia is mostly trading natural resources for cash with the west. China on the other hand, has millions of people directly working for western companies. If any kind of major conflict would erupt, that would insta-die, and cause massive problems on both sides, but undoubtedly much worse on the Chinese side.

Re:China

[dunkelfalke]

MacArthur was insane, even demanding to nuke China, which as sure as hell would have started a world war, and that one would have definitely been the last.
Be happy North Korea exists, because it saved your life.

Re:China

[NicknameUnavailable]

N. Korea only exists because of China. MacArthur had the fucking N. Koreans almost off the map but the Chinese had to come in and save them and prop up the Kim regimes.

It is 100% China's fault that North Korea exists and pulls this shit. All they have to do is pull the rug out and N. Korea falls. Un wants to be the shit, China is perfectly capable of neutralizing him.

China wants to be a World power? Well, it's time they learn the burdens and responsibilities.

Otherwise, China can go fuck themselves.

You're being way too naive about things. North Korea is China's first strike option, they've been propping them up for decades for that specific purpose. To think a people composed mostly of slave laborers and cult-tier followers is capable of engineering a nuke, let alone a nuke-capable ICBM is beyond absurd, especially given Iran has been trying for decades with relatively minimal interference from the outside world compared to North Korea, and failing miserably at it.

In truth the entire country is hopelessly brainwashed, even the Kim regime, as they believe they could actually nuke the US and China will come to save them, when in actuality they are just being propped up as a part of a much longer game, wherein they pop off a nuke or two to devastate the US economy, then China comes to the rescue by "allying" with the US to quell North Korea, then either backstabs the US directly with military force, or indirectly by maintaining their manufacturing stranglehold.

Right now what we have is things coming to a head: Trump's America First moves are driving manufacturing back to the US and away from China - which means China gets less foreign R&D to take for themselves (which was the whole point of their rare-earth metal monopoly, in that they could sell finished goods at equal cost to a small fraction of the raw materials in order to get foreign designs without the R&D overhead,) and they are just about caught up on technological advancement, meaning there is never going to be better time for them to make a move because it only gets harder to do so from here on out. This is why China is feeding North Korea nuke technologies (oh, you thought they were just blitzing through 100 years of rocket science without help? lol) - it's because they've spent decades in this gamble and it's finally time.

Re: China

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't comment on Xi, but if you think Putin is an "irrational" actor, you're drinking some interesting kool-aid. Now, no doubt much/most of what he does is self-serving, but that is not the same as irrational. He's not going to "shoot himself in the foot", though he may make self-serving strategic sacrifices that are bad for some subset of Russians. But that's not the same as bad for Russia, or bad for Putin.

Re:China

[angel'o'sphere]

I really wonder about the stupidity ... not particular yours ... but posters you answer too, and some things you say, of course.

FIRST: the most important, the USA has absolutely no leverage at all over China. China is not a third world country. The only thing USA could try to attempt are legislations to restrict imports from China.
All this "if war" is such a bullshit. If America would test a war with China (or the idea China fears american troops in a unified NK ... how retarded is that).
Get it: China has nukes. You know that? If *foreign* (insert country) soldiers enter China in sufficient strength to be a threat, Chine will use its nukes. At least that is what I would do if I was in power. And I bet the Chinese government/military has not even 1% of the scruples I would have, see SECOND.

SECOND: the Chinese, like most of their neighbours, are mostly Buddhists.
They don't get to hell because they are assholes.
They don't get to heaven because they are saints.
They fucking (ignore my bad wording) don't care how many people they kill, how many own people get killed if they fight.
BECAUSE: they get DAMN REBORN next incarnation cycle. Every bomb they drop on e.g. the USA and every bomb they receive in retaliation simply starts a new cycle of reincarnation for both parties involved. You Christians are so stupid, it is unbelievable.

THIRD: no one, except some scientist, is interested in how China, the culture and the society works. You only look on: bad communists, oh, good capitalists, oh bad patent/IP thieves, oh bad CO2 polluters ... what a bullshit. I would not wonder if any USA administration replaces the ambassador of the previous administration immediately by a new one.
That simply does not work. PERIOD. Does not matter when you replace him. The Chinese, like any other asian country, expects a FAMILY of ambassadors. A father who was 40 years ++ ambassador and set up a good relationship with Chinese diplomates. And his son, or a long known well introduced assistant as his successor. And the next successor already at the horizon.
If you replace your ambassador every 8 years (or 20, doe snot matter), the signal to an Asian is: that man was incompetent, you never could trust him ... you do that several times in a row: they know: you only sent the most stupid diplomates to China, because obviously they are all so incompetent that you have to replace them regularly. Or so incompetent that your own government (yes, the administration changed) does not trust them.
It takes 20 - 30 years to establish a "trust worthy" ambassador in an Asian country. And he has hard work to start preparing his replacement after 15 years of service, so he is not replaced by an "unknown" when he retires.
So, that was one of the simplest lectures about asian culture(s) ... there are hundreds others.
Read some books about it and stop pretending you have any clue what is going on in China or North Korea.

For most Asian countries, America, UK and other European countries are: the arch enemy Yes that might sound dramatic in your eyes, erm ears. angel'o'sphere is again overstating some shit. No. We are the arch enemy. Not only because of all the bollocks our nations did from roughly 1650 till 1990s, but because we repeat and repeat it all again. And mostly: because the DON'T FORGET!! They exactly know that "we" the "west" only want to exploit them. Opium wars, choosing the wrong side in the Chinese rebellion, destroying the Japanese Banking system in the 1980s/1990, the war in Vietnam, the war in Korea ... with what ignorance/arrogance do the westerners think there was anything justified in bombing Vietnam into a stone age? If you had any moral reasons to go for a war in Asia, you should have saved Cambodia. But no! "Evil communists" kill the south Vietnam dictatorship (same as the american freedom fighters did in the independence war!),so we have to jump in, be

Re:China

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't have a lot of confidence in the two people we hope aren't stupid, Trump and Kim Jong Un. Their behavior has demonstrated they are too irrational and react poorly enough to criticism that they could be provoked into doing idiotic things. Sad.

Re:China

[Anonymous Coward]

>>When Kim launches another ICBM over Japan, is that an act of war and can we respond or not?

I'd say if it happens again it's an act of war. Prove it was intended to miss on purpose. It's not like they pre-file flight plans with us and Japan.

Re: China

[Anonymous Coward]

He's rational from his own perspective, just like Kim. The trick is to figure out what their perspective actually is. Kim is probably trying to establish a position from which North Korea perpetually can demand food and resources from the South, "or else".

Putin is playing the old "Euro-Asian Empire" game, "The third Rome". Or at least he claims to do so. What he's actually doing though is not just "bad for some subset of Russians", it's incredibly bad for most Russians. He's damaging the Russian people and the state by the corruption, misery and waste of resources he and his "oligarchs" are causing, he's damaging his country by getting it's citizens killed in wars which are neither desirable for most of them, or even indeed acknowledged by the ones giving the orders. He's damaging his country and its people by making its relations with other countries much worse than it would have to be. I could go on all day, but I'm already getting long-winded. Suffice to say, Putin and his ilk is a cancer on the Russian society which will take extensive surgery, therapy and time to cure. Hopefully Russia will make it one day.

Re:China

[Anonymous Coward]

"do not have the same scruples and ethics" == Different rule sets

In the West, the a guiding principal is 'if everybody can do it it's ok'.
In other words, personal responsibility on the part of the actor restrains the system.

Perhaps in the East, the principal is 'if I can get away with it, it's ok'.
In other words it is the responsibility of the person receiving an action to restrain the system.

Either system makes a stable society, just with different rules as to expected behavior.
But folks from one group might think folks working under the other rule set are a little silly or too morally flexible.

In this case China and NK will do what ever they think they can get away with.
China clearly thinks they are getting a good deal with NK as it is, or NK would not be as it is.
This says the recent UN NK sanctions are likely a joke.

Re:China

[Anonymous Coward]

China is also clamping down on bitcoin exchanges lately, which may help slow down Jong Un's rate of acquisition.

Re:China

[Anonymous Coward]

North Korea doesn't do anything unless China gives them orders to.

Re:China

[Goragoth]

Shooting down the missile is fine. Waiting to see where the missile goes and retaliating if it hits anything is fine. Striking North Korea for shooting a warning shot across Japan (or wherever) is not. If a missile wipes out "Tokyo or Portland" the US can respond, but doing an early retaliation strike gains you nothing (the missile is in the air). This isn't a MAD scenario like with the USSR, where you had to respond while the missiles were flying because otherwise there's a good chance your entire launch capability is destroyed. North Korea is pretty far away from having that sort of capability.

Honestly, I find it shocking that there are actually people who think that military action in North Korea is a good idea, short of North Korea landing a major blow to the US or its allies. It will be guaranteed to end with Seoul and Pusan being flattened into rubble and a death toll upwards of 100,000, probably in the millions. How does that seem acceptable to anyone?

Re:China

[Anonymous Coward]

The same can be said in reverse.

South Korea exists because it was propped up by the US. North Korea had the S. Koreans almost off the map but the US had to come in and save them and prop up the dictatorship in the south.

It is 100% the US's fault that South Korea exists, all they have to do is pull the rug out and S. Korea falls.

By mere stroke of luck, you weren't born on the communist side of things, and so you view things from the opposite perspective.

Global diplomacy is hard, eh?

Re:China

[Anonymous Coward]

That depends on what the alternative is. Sometimes you only get bad alternatives.

How many dead could North Korea cause as a fully fledged nuclear power, armed with hydrogen bombs? Is being perpetually extorted by a nutter with nukes an acceptable future?

The only thing that is certain is that the prize goes up the longer the problem is ignored. Remember, if France had stepped in when Hitler re-militarized the Rhineland - which at that point was something they easily could have done - it would have been a short, nasty war and Hitler would have been gone. Instead the problem was pushed forward, and a lot of people lost their both their lives and freedom even before the gigantic war which in the end turned out to be the only solution left for the Hitler-problem.

Re:China

[dddux]

These political games are so silly and so "manly". "My dick is bigger than yours." kinda thing. But the most sad thing about it is that these games could influence billions of lives. It's utterly tragic.

Currency liquidity

[Anonymous Coward]

With tightening sanctions ...

So everyone will be forced to abandon Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies? I wonder how that will affect currency liquidity. Maybe China should sell their US treasury instruments to Korea: After all, the US isn't going to ban their own currency. If there is a currency shortage, BRICS nations will be able to demand that trading partners use the rouble/rupee/yuan, not US instruments.

I'm skeptical

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no concrete evidence that this has occurs. That "research" entry which is comprised of a single blog entry does not show anything substantial. The link to the supposedly compromised four wallets in South Korea, is a generic article about Bitcoin and doesn't mention any compromises anywhere on that page.

When looking at the actual SK exchange compromise there is no indication that NK was involved by anyone; https://hacked.press/2017/04/29/korean-bitcoin-exchange-yapizon-confirms-5-million-hack-all-customers-to-pay-with-balances/ . Furthermore, other than disrupting SK, it's not like NK can use that exchange now to conduct its business. If I was NK, what better means than to use a SK, Japanese or US Bitcoin Exchange to conduct my shady business?

Not saying NK is doing stupid shit, but this "research" is a waste of people's time. It certainly was mine.

Thanks Slashdot editors for yet another high-quality misleading entry!

Re: I'm skeptical

[that this is not und]

The word 'bitcoin' is in it, so no matter what, it needs to be spun up on Slashdot, because any mention of cryptocurrency on Slashdot brings attention, which is always mostly positive for the cryptocurrency.

Any mention of cryptocurrency or bitcoin on Slashdot is, thus, spam all the way down.

Kim Jung-Un

[Anonymous Coward]

Is very sexy man.

Re: Kim Jung-Un

[Anonymous Coward]

But so ronnnnnnnery

Re: Kim Jung-Un

[Anonymous Coward]

That was his father.

Re: Kim Jung-Un

[Anonymous Coward]

Then he shouldn't have killed his brother, Kim Jong Tiss.

China's Bitcoin crackdown

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm wondering if there's a relation between this and China's current crackdown on Bitcoin exchanges.

Good opportunity for the NSA!

[wisebabo]

If North Korea is building up a bitcoin stash, then maybe there would be some way for the NSA to cripple the bitcoin currency and wipe out North Korea's savings. (Of course all other bitcoin holders would be bankrupted, sorry!) Either they could find some vulnerability in the blockchain protocols or, through hacking, infiltrate and damage (okay steal) enough digital wallets as to undermine people's confidence in the currency.

Remember that bitcoin, like all money, is only as good as the TRUST people put in it as a store of value. If people can't rely on it, or if it's too easily stolen then that trust goes out the window and the value of the bitcoins will crash.

Of course this assumes that the NSA has the ability to do these things. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. But when we see the power of just (presumably) some of their stolen tools, who knows what else they have? I've heard they've got the largest number of mathematicians employed in the world. Hmm... could Bitcoin even be an NSA invention? Perhaps this is a long term trap? (I doubt it though, way too much foresight involved).

Questions:
Would a working quantum computer be able to do bitcoin (or other blockchain algorithms) calculations at speeds far greater than conventional or even specialized CPUs? In which case will the first organization to have such a machine be able to profit immensely (before destroying the entire market)?

Is the recent run up of bitcoin prices perhaps due to the North Koreans buying/stealing bitcoins because otherwise they'll have no other way of obtaining hard currency? (It would be ironic if so; they'd be going from "hard" currencies to something that is completely abstract).

Re:Good opportunity for the NSA!

[Mr D from 63]

Of course this assumes that the NSA has the ability to do these things.

Dennis Rodman has already planted the malware needed to do this.

Re:Good opportunity for the NSA!

[codebonobo]

If North Korea is building up a bitcoin stash, then maybe there would be some way for the NSA to cripple the bitcoin currency and wipe out North Korea's savings..

Best of luck, bitcoin thrives in hostile byzantine environments and will only grow stronger with attacks. The war on drugs is an easier task to accomplish than stopping bitcoin. Whether nation states understand this or not , they heavily subsidize the value of bitcoin with their laws and regulations. Bitcoins primary raison d'être is for regulatory arbitrage. Thus the best way to undermine bitcoin would be to start legalizing everything and removing all regulations which indirectly subsidize the value of bitcoin.

Either they could find some vulnerability in the blockchain protocols or, through hacking, infiltrate and damage (okay steal) enough digital wallets as to undermine people's confidence in the currency..

They have to compete with all other hackers and nation states who are trying to collect upon a multibillion dollar bug bounty. Any successful attacks may temporarily drop confidence in bitcoin , sure ,but there are enough of us bootstrapped to see the project through regardless the risks involved.

If people can't rely on it, or if it's too easily stolen then that trust goes out the window and the value of the bitcoins will crash.

Theft , asset forfeiture , hyperinflation , bail ins , bail outs , ect , happen all the time with fiat. Bitcoin just has to do moderately better than any competing currency in any aspect that makes currency valuable(scarcity, fungibility, ect...) to retain value and be used. Since bitcoin is worldwide, all it takes is one country to monetary flaws to see an influx of new bitcoin investors as an exit to their countries problems. We are seeing this already in Argentina and Venezuela.

Would a working quantum computer be able to do bitcoin (or other blockchain algorithms) calculations at speeds far greater than conventional or even specialized CPUs?

Right now, no . In the future , possibly weaken bitcoins security assumptions, but this would undermine the whole financial system as well. Bitcoin also has some easy solutions if this occurs = https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Qua...

(It would be ironic if so; they'd be going from "hard" currencies to something that is completely abstract).

Hmmm... fiat currencies and traditional finance is far from "hard" and really abstract.

Re:Good opportunity for the NSA!

[Anonymous Coward]

Total lack of understanding of how the technology works.

No, they can't "steal" everyone's wallet. Most people keep it in cold storage, ie, a physical device not connected to the Internet. Portability and security are also important qualities of money.

Re:Good opportunity for the NSA!

[Anonymous Coward]

If North Korea is building up a bitcoin stash, then maybe there would be some way for the NSA to cripple the bitcoin currency and wipe out North Korea's savings. (Of course all other bitcoin holders would be bankrupted, sorry!) Either they could find some vulnerability in the blockchain protocols or, through hacking, infiltrate and damage (okay steal) enough digital wallets as to undermine people's confidence in the currency.

If the NSA wanted to kill bitcoin I'd expect them to execute a 51% attack.
An alternative, cheaper, but longer term avenue would be to instigate repeated forks in the blockchain.

So this is how Bitcoin is going to be shot down

[Anonymous Coward]

China wasn't scary enough, I guess.

The Korean War is in a cease-fire

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep this in mind: Technically, the Korean War never ended. It's only in a state of cease-fire, a temporary "time-out".

The trouble is North Korea is still actively fighting that war while the rest of the world has moved on.

Re:The Korean War is in a cease-fire

[Arzaboa]

Moved on? What on earth are you talking about. China hasn't moved on. South Korea hasn't moved on. The United States hasn't moved on. Japan hasn't moved on. Russia hasn't moved on. The UN is still voting on sanctions ever year since the armistice. There is still a mined no mans zone across the 38th parallel. SK and the US are practicing joint military exercises. The US has 50k or so troops in S.K. What are you talking about? From their point of view, the entire world is trying to crush them, and certainly has their head pinned.

Re:The Korean War is in a cease-fire

[Anonymous Coward]

...and the rest of the world is doing that in reaction to NK being such a trouble maker.

Re:The Korean War is in a cease-fire

[angel'o'sphere]

From their point of view, the entire world is trying to crush them, and certainly has their head pinned.
Quite insightful!

The ransomware connection

[Applehu Akbar]

If it can be proved that North Korea is using ransomware as a source of funds, that's an act of war. The line is crossed.

Re:The ransomware connection

[Anonymous Coward]

So apparently the General Populous has incorrectly made the Bitcoin = Ransomware = Illegal connection. *Facepalm*

Re:The ransomware connection

[codebonobo]

As if this is the worst thing N Korea has been involved with.

Re:The ransomware connection

[Applehu Akbar]

So apparently the General Populous has incorrectly made the Bitcoin = Ransomware = Illegal connection. *Facepalm*

I'm not flaming your precious Bitcoin here, but just pointing out that if the North Korean government - no private enterprise in that country, remember - is distributing and profiting from ransomware, the we have every right to glass it down to radioactive ash. This would still be the case if all their ransomware trade were being conducted with stacks of cash Benjamins.

Moral Questions ABout Bitcoin Aside

[Anonymous Coward]

How much more of an indicator do you need that the sanctions are hurting the man than when the turns to Bitcoin to keep his country and his personal extravagances afloat? Can he keep the import and export operations of a whole country moving using Bitcoin for his medium of exchange?

This is a move of desperation when a country takes to using Silk Road type tactics to keep trade going.

They already went dumb once (Korea war)

[aepervius]

This is a dictature so they have to have an "enemy" at the moment they are using the USA, with no intention to attack (they are a dictature, they want to rationally stay at the top, attacking would mean their end, contrary to propaganda they are not dumb). But ! Back in 1950 China did not want them to go to war, they attacked the south in spite of that. And got spanked (albeit admitedely the US did a lot of population killing). So even rational people can overestimate their chance at winning.

Re:They already went dumb once (Korea war)

[Kierthos]

The only problem with the "North Korea is only saber-rattling" thing is that the other side has to recognize that it's only saber-rattling.

Trump.... doesn't. He has a serious "run off at the mouth" problem on Twitter and in other media where he is clearly not thinking things through before he says them.

Which, if he were still just a businessman, or just a Senator or Representative, wouldn't be that bad, really. I mean, how much attention do people pay to all the stupid shit Louie Gohmert says, for example?

But Trump's the President. And a President with a tendency to not think statements through before saying them is.... not good.

Trackable

[gurps_npc]

Aren't bitcoins easily trackable? They are only anonymous if you mine them yourself or buy them from someone that mined them themselves.

Yes, it is too much trouble for your standard police department to track them. But national spy/anti-terrorist agencies like the USA, Russia, China are another story.

If you don't think the NSA/CIA/Homeland Security know exactly who North Korea is giving bitcoins too and who is giving them bitcoins, then, I have a Border Wall to sell you. Cheap. Free if you can get Mexico to pay for it.

Re:Trackable

[Anonymous Coward]

Each and every transaction between wallets is published for all to see in the blockchain.
The problem is associating a wallet with a specific person.

Looking at this history makes it possible to trace stolen funds.
You can track tainted funds through wallets in the system.
Without effecting BTC, one could publish which funds are supposedly tainted and the evidence for the tainting outside the blockchain.

A fundamental idea of BTC is that anybody can trade with whomever they feel comfortable.
To change this would break a major value of BTC, so it seems unlikely that this will happen.

But what could happen is that major exchanges be held accountable for who they trade with.
This could limit the ability of bad actors to convert their BTC to cash.

Re:Trackable

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need any specialized software or hardware to "track" bitcoins. The blockchain itself is the tracking system, it's the core of the system.

The only thing the police/agencies/etc need is to have confirmation that someone is associated with a wallet number. Which is kind of needed when you need to convert crypto into fiat or vice-versa.

Re:Trackable

[codebonobo]

Aren't bitcoins easily trackable? They are only anonymous if you mine them yourself or buy them from someone that mined them themselves.

Some new changes already in use as we speak add much higher privacy to bitcoin. Lightning network payment channels with onion routing as a default with no recorded tx history on the blockchain, confidential transactions, mimblewimble, cross atomic swaps , all make chain analysis obsolete.

Doesn't bother me

[Anonymous Coward]

We have more than enough corruption in the US to wipe out before worrying about what chubbos in other countries are doing.

I'm so behind...

[aicrules]

I still don't understand how mining bitcoins can be a thing...I understand why any random person might invest in them because somehow a real dollar value has been attached to them, but when they get created out of nothing via activities that don't have any semblance of value or value control...I could never bring myself to even invest a dollar. To say it seems shady is probably a gross understatement. But I'm sure those who love bitcoin and the like have a different point of view...in the nearly decade that it's been around, I have tried numerous times to truly understand how it can even exist, and I've failed every time. Yes, any currency is made up and requires any two people who would use the currency in an exchange to agree that the currency has value. And yes, fiat paper currency doesn't have any actual value itself, but there is at least some level of legal infrastructure supporting it. Bitcoin is less than a fiat currency. And I just can't wrap my mind around why so many people have jumped into it. I'm just one person though...

Re:I'm so behind...

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the paper. It's short and written in understandable language. The central concept is a distributed blockchain, which is used to keep a ledger of all transactions, including the creation of Bitcoins. A blockchain is a concept which long precedes Bitcoin. It consists of blocks which are linked through cryptographic hashes. You calculate for example the SHA256 value of a block of data. Then you start the next block with that hash value and add more data until the block is full. Then you calculate the SHA256 value of the second block and start block three with it, fill it with data, and so on. This ensures that you can verify the validity of the entire chain of blocks if you have the hash value at the beginning of the current block. Earlier blockchains were managed by single entities, and the hash of the current head of the chain was published widely in "tamper resistant" ways, for example in newspapers. Anyone could then go to a newspaper archive and look up the "official" head of the chain at a given time. The novel thing about Bitcoin is how a lot of participants can agree on one chain of blocks without trusting each other or a central authority. That's where mining enters the picture. Adding a new block to the chain involves solving a cryptographic puzzle which requires lots of computation. A new block without proof that the puzzle has been solved is invalid and rejected by participants in the Bitcoin system. The agreed-upon blockchain is the one with the most computation invested in it. This way an attacker would need an inordinate amount of computer resources to create a separate chain that could replace the consensus. The more blocks have been added after a block that an attacker wants to modify, the more computation is required to create a chain, which represents more computation in total but with a different block in that place. As a reward for continuously solving these cryptographic puzzles and thereby securing the blockchain, miners are rewarded with newly minted Bitcoins. If it is cheaper to mine and be rewarded with Bitcoins than it is to buy Bitcoins, people invest in mining hardware (CPUs, graphics cards, FPGA-boards, ASICs). They can sell the Bitcoins they earn and make a profit.

Re:I'm so behind...

[DontBeAMoran]

As you say, countries can just print more bills and dilute the value of the cash you already own. That can lead to hyper-inflation.

Why people trust Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies is because there isn't a single government controlling it, meaning that the whole world would have to cooperate and basically shut down the internet to block them.

Re:I'm so behind...

[aicrules]

I'm not saying distributed currency control is a bad thing, but I don't see how it survives. It feels like there has to be a gigantic bubble propping it up and when it pops it will all be immediately worthless with no possibility to recover because there literally is nothing to recover...

Re:I'm so behind...

[codebonobo]

but when they get created out of nothing via activities that don't have any semblance of value or value control

The minting of bitcoin is controlled by the destruction of registered value by means of burning energy to create fungible value . This is inherently an inefficient process by design that states are highly subsidizing indirectly through laws and regulations.

.I could never bring myself to even invest a dollar.

Unless you are gambling on the forex market with large amounts of fiat, you shouldn't invest in fiat currencies because they constantly lose value due to inflation. Bitcoin on the other hand is disinflationary. Therefore, scarce and likely to keep going up in value , whether more people invest or not.

.To say it seems shady is probably a gross understatement.

Bitcoins raison d'être is for regulatory arbitrage and assisting the underserved. Sure you can use it for white market use cases but that isn't the primary value proposition. Just like dollars, sometimes this involves breaking laws that are unethical outlawed (war on gambling, prostitution, and drugs), sometimes it involves skirting regulations that are unethical (banking embargo against wikileaks, asset forfeiture, operation chokepoint) , other times it involves skirting capital control from countries that have destroyed their currency due to corruption and mismanagement, and other times it involves unethical illegal transactions(ransomeware). Most crime is done with the US dollar , and while bitcoin is beginning to eat some of the dollars marketshare with the blackmarket it has a long way to go, especially with regards to arms trading and terrorism which is almost 100% fiat currency based.

Re:I'm so behind...

[DontBeAMoran]

Bitcoin is like any other market, when there's a bubble it pops but afterwards the price adjusts itself accordingly.

Looking at the price chart since the beginning, you can see Bitcoin could collapse at a little above USD$3000 and still be on the right track. Reaching USD$5000 so quickly was a bubble, it has popped and the price is stabilizing.

Re:I'm so behind...

[angel'o'sphere]

Your dollars are created out of nothing, too.

Re:I'm so behind...

[dddux]

"They get created out of nothing..." And you think a common bank is creating money out of what? Revisit your perception. I mean, think about what you're saying. ;) it'll do you good.

Isn't this a good case for a "poisened wallet" bla

[loren]

I am no cryptocurrency expert, but my understanding is that the BTC really only has value because the BTC user base has formed a consensus that it does. I believe the vast majority of conscience human beings can agree that North Korea's (government's) recent actions and stance are dangerous and morally reprehensible.

Assuming that NK has channeled most of its BTC stash through a small number of wallets, and that most of them may be identified by NK's spending patterns, I think this is a good case for implementing "poisoned wallets" to render all BTC (or partial BTC) that left a verboten wallet after a given time stamp. This would work, of course, only for users that use the blacklist enabled version of the software... but I believe enough people find NK's position sufficiently dangerous to warrant adopting this alternative code base to at least GREATLY DEVALUE these "tainted" BTC. This type of change begs two interesting questions:

1) How are the list of poisoned wallets managed? On the micro level, I believe the choice of banned wallets should be up to the individual BTC user, but most users won't want to manage such a tedious list. I expect users would want to defer this responsibility to one or more "accusation bodies" each with their own accusation, conviction, poisoning and appeal processes, all blockchain protected (outside the BTC blockchain)... I expect users would sign up for these poisoning feeds in one of two groups: 1) organizations that uphold the users moral convictions, or 2) organizations that seek out a superset of poisoned wallets, for those that want to ensure any BTC they receive are untainted, and good for other transactions. I believe most users would be most interested in aggregators (#2), but enough users would also add original accusers (#1) to make such a system plausable.

2) Tainted BTCs wouldn't be completely valueless, as some users may still accept them, so differently tainted BTCs would trade at their own distinct prices, which may be an interesting opportunity for cryptocurrency exchange companies.

What do you think?

Bitcoin

[Anonymous Coward]

Preferred by terrorists worldwide. Can we shut this sh!t down now!

46,541 mi

[Anonymous Coward]

That's how small Best Korea is. Shouldn't take more than a fraction of the U.S. militarys stash of bombs and missiles to reduce the entire country to looking like the Florida Keys do right now, ending the entire problem of PRNK once and for all.

read between the lines

[Anonymous Coward]

China shutdown those bitcoin farms because of pressure from Trump after the NK nuke tests.

Not skirting anything

[thegarbz]

The sanctions are on goods and movement of currency. Using bitcoin doesn't make goods magically move (actually quite the opposite, you'll find most companies don't accept it). Using bitcoin also doesn't magically increase the amount of currency trade that has been sanctioned. The money needs to physically move, having bitcoins doesn't make that happen unless you also have bitcoin exchanges in direct violation of the sanctions.

Stupid article is stupid.

Re:Not skirting anything

[OrangeTide]

The main limitation to the sanctions is that it is difficult to wire transfers and international banking. North Korea is basically blacklisted in the majority of banks right now. But once you have a way to put money into another party's account, you can arrange for them to acquire and deliver the goods you wish. There is no naval blockade of North Korea, so importing products amounts to putting it on a ship and sailing it right in.

The sanctions are disruptive to North Korea's trade, but not absolute. And being able to move money around grants them a lot of flexibility.

wtf?

[Anonymous Coward]

How would they use this to get around trade sanctions? Maybe for software or some other intellectual property but anything else still has to get shipped into NK somehow.

captcha: piracy

IR primer

[Nidi62]

Define "preemptive" attack?

When Kim launches another ICBM over Japan, is that an act of war and can we respond or not?

Launching an ICBM over a state=provocation.

Launching an ICBM at a state=act of war.

Re:IR primer

[Anonymous Coward]

One mischievous sibling starts playing the I'm-not-touching-you game by waving his hand 1" away from his sister's face, who was, up to that moment, occupying her time by reading a book quietly. Technically, the brother has not touched his sister, but if the sister physically struck his hand or pushed him away from her personal space, would you think that was an inappropriate response?

Re:Isn't this a good case for a "poisened wallet"

[codebonobo]

Assuming that NK has channeled most of its BTC stash through a small number of wallets, and that most of them may be identified by NK's spending patterns, I think this is a good case for implementing "poisoned wallets" to render all BTC (or partial BTC) that left a verboten wallet after a given time stamp.

There is no way this will happen . We may not want bitcoin to be used by N Korea but adding blacklists, taint , and reducing fungibility/privacy is unacceptable. Fungibility is more sacrosanct than the 21 million limit in bitcoin and we have already made great changes with privacy that are starting to be used now to make any sort of chain analysis impossible.

Why sanctions?

[Anonymous Coward]

The western countries sanction NK, and then complain that NK cant feed their own people? If there were no sanctions, then NK would have enough food for their people.

Re:Why sanctions?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's even better than that, or at least it was in the 90s/2000s :
- western countries impose sanctions, make them lose 1 billion
- send them 10 million in humanitarian aid (bags of rice, etc.)
- see, the US send food even to their enemies, out of their good hearts!
- North Korea is an evil regime that starves its citizens and blackmails the US and the West for food.

You

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't feed your people with Bitcoin.

Re:You

[OrangeTide]

Make it illegal to starve, and punish anyone who does starve.

Not a way of dodging sanctions

[mysidia]

If THEIR TRADING PARTNER implements sanctions they are required to, then they will not accept Bitcoin either ---- Also, if you want your trading sanctions to work properly when not all merchants agree to them, anyone with a clue knows you need an embargo or monitoring in place and means of enforcing your sanctions too; a nice thing about Bitcoin is it's traceable, thus more transparent to monitoring than cash transactions.

North Korea doesn't have the least bit of trouble obtaining US-Dollars. Also, North Korea has been known to counterfeit US Dollars. Even if they didn't.... if NK can get overseas suppliers to transact in bitcoin, they can also get them to transact using other media such as Chinese Renminbi, they just need to exchange through any of many countries either not recognizing or not aggressively enforcing the sanctions.

Re:Isn't this a good case for a "poisened wallet"

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be a terrible idea. This is like any blacklist or censorship. One you implement it the solution will be applied to others- like I don't know wikipedia, pirate sites, and then onto storage lockers and political candidates.

Re:Isn't this a good case for a "poisened wallet"

[DarthVain]

"BTC really only has value because the BTC user base has formed a consensus that it does"

You pretty much just described very succinctly every currency that exists.

Even the last part about tainted BTC's pretty much describe those currencies that go through hyper inflation due to printing of money to the point of worthlessness.

Wrong target

[DriveDog]

Only China can reign in North Korea, and they're not going to unless it's really costing them. China currently assists NK and they will continue to do so regardless of what they say so long as their relationship with western countries isn't seriously threatened. It keeps the rest of the world playing nice with China to try to get them to help. Wrong approach. Drastically slash imports to the US from China. US consumers will suffer a bit from higher prices and from shortages (read "severe price spikes") in the short term as other suppliers ramp up. China will get the message and do something serious about NK. But the reason that's not done is because those controlling the US are not about to threaten the income of themselves and their best buddies, who profit from the overseas production and imports. So in a very real sense, the Kim Jong Un problem is the result of US (and western Europe) billionaires putting profits ahead of the safety of everyone and everything.

Re:Isn't this a good case for a "poisened wallet"

[Anonymous Coward]

This type of change begs two interesting questions:

Really. Begs two questions, that's a new one.

What do you think?

I think you should shut the fuck up.