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Navy Returns to Compasses and Pencils To Help Avoid Collisions at Sea (nytimes.com)

An anonymous reader shares a report: Urgent new orders went out earlier this month for United States Navy warships that have been plagued by deadly mishaps this year. More sleep and no more 100-hour workweeks for sailors. Ships steaming in crowded waters like those near Singapore and Tokyo will now broadcast their positions as do other vessels. And ships whose crews lack basic seamanship certification will probably stay in port until the problems are fixed.[...] The orders issued recently by the Navy's top officer for ships worldwide, Vice Adm. Thomas S. Rowden, drew on the lessons that commanders gleaned from a 24-hour fleetwide suspension of operations last month to examine basic seamanship, teamwork and other fundamental safety and operational standards. Collectively, current and former officers said, the new rules mark several significant cultural shifts for the Navy's tradition-bound fleets. At least for the moment, safety and maintenance are on par with operational security, and commanders are requiring sailors to use old-fashioned compasses, pencils and paper to help track potential hazards (alternative source), as well as reducing a captain's discretion to define what rules the watch team follows if the captain is not on the ship's bridge. "Rowden is stomping his foot and saying, 'We've got to get back to basics,'" said Vice Adm.

206 comments

  1. Sigh. by ledow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Please explain why US Navy warhsips have crews who "lack basic seamanship certification".

    I mean.. I understand that they might not have the piece of paper, the same way they might not have passed the official driving test to drive a tank, but surely... surely at some point... someone gave them the equivalent skills and/or sent them on the same kinds of training such that it would be a cinch to acquire such certification?

    1. Re:Sigh. by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 2

      Someone's "basic" is another man's "above expert".

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    2. Re:Sigh. by johnstrass1 · · Score: 1

      My father flew an F4 in Viet Nam and shot down a MiG. He did not get his drivers license until he got his USAF wings...

    3. Re: Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Diversity.

    4. Re:Sigh. by D.McG. · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Being able to fly, lead a target, and shoot down a MiG, has no bearing on knowing the rules of the road, being able to shift gears in a standard, hill start, etc. Different skillsets.

      The OP has a valid point. If someone is training to get certified and is shadowed by someone who is certified, that's one thing. But if the bridge is filled with people that are not certified, that's a huge breakdown in the chain of command. The gov't spends HOW MUCH money on defense, yet we have untrained people on deck looking after a billion dollar boat? That's not what the taxpayers are expecting.

    5. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because technology is making us lazier and dumber, not more efficient and smarter.
      GPS can be hacked (sidebar: Why the actual FUCK are signals from U.S. GPS SVs not encrypted to prevent hacking?); a magnetic compass, not so much (or at least, not at a distance).
      Are we lowering the bar, in all aspects of our society and not just within the military? Very possibly.

    6. Re: Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it's all or nothing, either the entire system gets flipped blocking out all civilian use or it doesn't

    7. Re:Sigh. by JohnFen · · Score: 2

      Please explain why US Navy warhsips have crews who "lack basic seamanship certification".

      This jumped out at me, too.

    8. Re: Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GPS does transmit an authenticated version of the signal that the military uses to prevent from sending them fake location data.

    9. Re:Sigh. by hey! · · Score: 5, Funny

      All I ask for is a tall ship and a satellite constellation to steer her by...

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    10. Re: Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I should have guessed that would be the case. Well then I guess they need to upgrade the encryption used because it's clearly and objectively inadequate, seeing as it's being overridden by hostile signals.

    11. Re: Sigh. by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      My dad made me take Coast Guard classes (seamanship, navigation, piloting, advanced piloting) before I got my driver's license - that was the rule if I wanted to his mediocre sailboat)...

    12. Re:Sigh. by hduff · · Score: 2

      Please explain why US Navy warhsips have crews who "lack basic seamanship certification".

      This jumped out at me, too.

      Reduced time and money for training are the culprits.

      More training is the solution.

      --
      "I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
    13. Re:Sigh. by g01d4 · · Score: 2

      I'd say technology lulls management into a false sense of security by making production smarter and more efficient. Since the man on watch has less to do, he can work longer shifts and tours - until he can't (if that indeed was part of the cause) and there's a wake-up call. Unfortunately in the US Navy's case there seems to have been a few. Another wake-up call?

    14. Re:Sigh. by EvilSS · · Score: 1

      Trying to do more without increasing your people count. Eventually something has to give. You end up rushing people into jobs with the hope that they will learn on the job and the chiefs will make sure they know or learn what they need. The focus lately has been on being operational, with lower focus on training.

      --
      I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    15. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      That's not what the taxpayers are expecting.

      As a taxpayer, I can assure you that for the past 15 years I expect nothing short of deception, negligence, and behaviors arguably interpretable as war crimes.

    16. Re:Sigh. by Grishnakh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Please explain why US Navy warhsips have crews who "lack basic seamanship certification".

      I read an article, I think on gcaptain.com, about this not long ago. Basically, it said that they just don't bother training them any more, because of cost-cutting measures in the late 2000s. They used to have some school they'd send them to to learn basic seamanship, but because of Congress's cost-cutting (Congress wants to spend lots of $$$ on weapons systems and shipbuilding, but they don't want to allow the Navy to spend any money on training), they closed the school and replaced it with a self-taught course on a bunch of CD-ROMs that sailors were expected to do on their own, *at sea*, while already way too busy with all their regular shipboard duties.

      Ultimately, I think the blame probably lies with Congress. The military really isn't able to run itself that much and make its own decisions for how to do things and fund things; it's highly micro-managed by Congress.

    17. Re:Sigh. by Plus1Entropy · · Score: 1

      It's because the Defense Budget is a jobs program. It's not about training better soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen, but that M1-Abrams Tanks are built in a factory in some town that otherwise has no economy so they keep pumping them out even though the Pentagon* says they don't want or need any more than they already have.

      *Weird-looking building. Four walls and a spare. Monument to Murphy's Law. (obligatory MASH reference)

      --
      Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
    18. Re:Sigh. by Grishnakh · · Score: 2

      has no bearing on knowing the rules of the road, being able to shift gears in a standard, hill start, etc.

      This is very tangential, but might be slightly relevant: in cars, a lot of those skills are largely obsolete. For instance, not many cars in the US come with a manual transmission any more: they're much harder to resell (unless it's a sports car), and automatics now have significantly better fuel economy than sticks (largely due to differences in gearing: automatics have taller gears at the top end, so the city economy is about the same but highway is worse).

      Also, starting on hills isn't a necessary skill any more much of the time: many cars have some kind of "hill-holder" mechanism. Subarus had a form of this way back in the late 80s I think, but modern cars have it as standard, provided by the ABS system (just hold the rear brake pressure on a hill until the car starts moving). Consequently, people learning to drive won' have to deal with these things, unless they get stuck in an older car unexpectedly.

      There may be a component of this to the Navy's problems: they have lots of high-tech systems, but they don't seem to teach any of the fundamentals any more, so sailors are dependent on the systems, but also don't understand how they really work and when not to trust them. (So, for instance, an older driver with a new car doesn't *need* to cover the brake when starting on a hill, but if there's someone right behind him, he might do so anyway out of precaution, in case the hill-holder system happens to fail at that moment, unlikely as that may be. The young driver won't, and will roll back into the other car.)

    19. Re:Sigh. by lord_mike · · Score: 1

      That is both horrifying and scandalous. Really, how much could real training cost? Certainly less than a couple of cruise missiles. It's horrifying to think that our Navy has practically no one who can pilot a ship on their one. It's inconceivable to think you could have a whole bridge crew that doesn't know what they are doing! Everyone should have at least a basic course on navigation and seamanship. Every officer, at the very least, should be able to navigate by sextant, compass, and longitude recordings based on speed and direction. Even recreational cruise ship crews know how use those tools to backup their instruments. I can't believe that skills that had been developed and mastered for thousands of years have simply been thrown away for unreliable, hackable technology. And yes, they should also learn semaphore and mores code as well. What are they teaching these crews,--anything at all?

    20. Re: Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the clear data + cypher data = private key

    21. Re:Sigh. by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      It's not just the lack of training, there's also a lack of sleep, which can probably be chalked up to being understaffed.

      What are they teaching these crews,--anything at all?

      They're teaching the crews with a self-taught course on CD-ROM, which they have to do at sea, but they don't because they only sleep 3 hours a night.

      Really, how much could real training cost? Certainly less than a couple of cruise missiles.

      Training costs too much. The cost of missiles is irrelevant, because that comes from a different pot of money. Those missiles are specifically budgeted for and approved by Congress, not the Navy. Similarly, the budget for training has to be budgeted for and approved, specifically, by Congress; the Navy doesn't get the latitude to make such spending decisions. After all, if the military could make its own decisions about how to spend money, it'd be "wasted", so it "needs" Congressional "oversight". That's the root of the problem.

    22. Re:Sigh. by ixidor · · Score: 1

      Now sure .. But OP is referring to his father, and learning to drive in the 60's and 70's, when none of that stuff was around yet He would have had to know how to hill clutch start without stalling or rolling backwards, and all the other things

    23. Re: Sigh. by The+Snowman · · Score: 0

      Well then I guess they need to upgrade the encryption used because it's clearly and objectively inadequate, seeing as it's being overridden by hostile signals.

      I think you have your news stories mixed up. US Navy ships have had several mishaps the past year due to incompetence of the personnel piloting their ships. Several civilian ships in a very specific part of the sea near Russia have had GPS tell them they are some place they are not (e.g. floating in the water in the middle of an airport, on land) due to Russian interference.

      Military GPS is more accurate and secure than civilian GPS. That still appears to be true.

      --
      24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
    24. Re: Sigh. by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Someone doesn't understand encryption very well...

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    25. Re:Sigh. by The+Snowman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      After all, if the military could make its own decisions about how to spend money, it'd be "wasted", so it "needs" Congressional "oversight". That's the root of the problem.

      Article I Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution has not one but three clauses that enumerate Congress's authority over the military, including this one:

      To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

      Back in the 18th century, military coups were more common than they are today. In fact the Articles of Confederation that predate the Constitution were even more restrictive than the Constitution: we barely had any military for the first decade. The compromise was to have a stronger military, but have a bit more oversight, especially with the budget. The goal was to have a military where commanders could focus on doing what they do well, killing shit, while Congress could regulate them (e.g. UCMJ) and pull the plug on relatively short notice and dry up funding if required.

      Of course, ever since the end of WW2 and the start of the Cold War, the military budget is just a pork buffet. I seriously doubt there is any risk of a military coup in the USA, or any other concerns that prompted the budget micromanagement that we have today.

      I also blame Bush 2 for a lot of the military problems we have, including the one called out in the article. Back in the mid-2000s, he insisted we needed more "boots on the ground" (i.e. Army and Marines) without increasing the overall military size. He gutted the Air Force and Navy. Probably half of those cuts were necessary regardless, the other half hurt. The lack of training called out in the article is a symptom of the larger issue of "doing more with less" - not necessarily a bad idea, but it has to be implemented correctly. Skimping on core training such as "navigating and piloting naval vessels" and "working 100 hour weeks and getting insufficient sleep" is not doing more with less: it is doing less with less. Source: I was active duty in the mid-2000s while Bush 2 was President.

      --
      24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
    26. Re:Sigh. by rickb928 · · Score: 2

      Sure. And you should expect competence in the military, at the level of basic training, marksmanship, transport, and seamanship where appropriate, and discipline. The Navy has a problem with this - bridge crews not paying enough attention, captains not on the bridge when the ship is in congested waters, and the obvious problem of the bridge command structure failing. Time for a reset.

      Going back to paper, pencils, compasses, etc. is a good step. Get the sextants out and take sightings. Throw the sounding line.

      Military personnel should understand this. When you fail, you should expect consequences such as retraining, strict adherence to procedure, double shifts, the whole gamut of realigning behavior and performance with expectations. This is better, in every way, than dead sailors because someone wasn't paying sufficient attention. The loss of life is not merely inexcusable, it's criminal. Captains that lose crewmen in accidents suffer loss of promotion and shortened careers, as they should. Their subordinates who failed should also suffer. None of these sailors deserve even the dubious honor or duty of notifying the families of the dead, for that is both honor and duty, and these failed officers have failed at both.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    27. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I just watched a documentary on the M-1A1. No new one have been produced in over 20 years. There are however, two factories that do refurbishments - one takes everything apart and the other puts everything back together.

    28. Re:Sigh. by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Really, how much could real training cost? Certainly less than a couple of cruise missiles

      The cruise missiles yield profit to the manufacturers, who lobby Congress to buy more cruise missiles. The Navy's internal training departments don't have lobbyists.

    29. Re:Sigh. by freeze128 · · Score: 2

      All modern cellphones have GPS in them. What they *NEED* are apps that emulate a sextant.

    30. Re: Sigh. by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      Then I guess it's time to give civilians the more accurate and more secure military GPS, and time for the military to make an even more accurate, even more secure military-only GPS.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    31. Re:Sigh. by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      It's good the Navy does this, but the corporate world is just as bad. Hiring people based on some certificate covering simplistic skills but which don't certify for competence of deep understanding, versus hiring someone with expertise who knows the fundamentals and can build on top of those.

    32. Re: Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That hasn't been the case from the beginning and it certainly isn't the case now. GPS has had multiple different solutions over the years where some codes are encrypted or obfuscated and others weren't. A fucking web search will tell you that in the first page of hits.

      Talk about people getting lazier and dumber...

    33. Re:Sigh. by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      That's because the current model is M1A2.

    34. Re: Sigh. by i286NiNJA · · Score: 1

      It's not being overridden it's inaccurate and a PITA to use compared to civilian stuff so people only use it when they have to.

    35. Re:Sigh. by hey! · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And will those apps simulate the sun as well so you can bring it down to the horizon?

      Let's be clear in any case what problem we're solving. A sextant is an essential tool (along with a chronometer) in determining latitude and longitude -- position on the Earth. This is where Mercator projection maps are handy: it helps you choose a heading that will get you somewhere you can't see.

      What's going on here is that ships are running into each other in crowded sea lanes. So somehow the instruments available to the people piloting these ships plus their own eyes aren't enough to prevent a collisions that old-school pilots would have avoided. And I'm fairly sure this is not because it's not physically possible to process the information. It may be that reliance on technology to do most of the hard work has reduced the pilot's habitual engagement and awareness.

      There is another solution, which is to have the ships completely robotically piloted. You'd still train pilots to handle ships manually for unusual situation, but you wouldn't count on having perfect human attention directing the ship 7x24.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    36. Re:Sigh. by i286NiNJA · · Score: 0

      This training is only PQS, they just have to talk about it and get someone to sign that they discussed it. At best there is an oral quiz at the end. The CO cares more that these guys paint the ship so the admiral will say "WOW THE SHIP LOOKS GREAT"

      This problem is all about how the people in the Navy check off boxes and suck each other's dicks for promotion. They just abuse these super-low ranking guys who do all the work until there is almost nothing left of them. Most deck seamen become addicted to alcohol and cigarettes, it's common for them to go AWOL or kill themselves.

    37. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's because the Defense Budget is a jobs program. It's not about training better soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen, but that M1-Abrams Tanks are built in a factory in some town that otherwise has no economy

      Well, training better sailors (and naval officers) is certainly a 'jobs program' - you'll need lots of instructors for that. And extra vessels for numerous practice runs.Oh, you may want to waste some big-gun ammo while doing this too. Lots of items to produce, lots of jobs needed.

    38. Re: Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Military GPS may have authentication that prevent spoofing of the signals. But nothing prevents jamming with a high-power transmitter - especially if that transmitter is between the ship and the satellite (on a plane, or in space). In war, the satellite constellation could be taken out with a space nuke - something even NK can do these days.

      So you need ability to navigate without electronics. GPS is merely a convenience - great for making peacetime navigation cheaper.

    39. Re:Sigh. by lord_mike · · Score: 1

      They're teaching the crews with a self-taught course on CD-ROM, which they have to do at sea, but they don't because they only sleep 3 hours a night.

      A friggin' CD-ROM course to learn how to pilot a ship...Amazing! Is it narrated by Troy McClure, too?

      Some heads need to roll for this... seriously! This is beyond unacceptable.

    40. Re:Sigh. by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      This hasn't happened yet but the current thing is to have "smart rifles" to replace the skill that a sniper has to have, to find targets, determine if he can make the shot, etc. This won't end well either.

    41. Re: Sigh. by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      No, that's not why.

    42. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is what happens when you spend all your money on expensive toys no one knows how to use.

    43. Re:Sigh. by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 4, Insightful
      It's not just the training, the thing that really struck me is:

      Ships steaming in crowded waters like those near Singapore and Tokyo will now broadcast their positions as do other vessels.

      So when the entire world is relying on AIS to avoid collisions, the US navy isn't providing that in the middle of busy shipping lanes? It's a fscking aircraft carrier, how invisible is that going to be when it's going through the Singapore strait? Turn on AIS in busy areas and you won't need to go back to pencil and paper...

    44. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Proper training is really expensive. There's the cost of the school ashore that requires barracks and messing facilities and billets of trained people to act as instructors. And while the students are there they aren't in ship billets.
      Then once they get on ships you need to send the ships out to sea locally for training. That cost money for fuel and degrades equipment requiring repair parts and time and eventually yard time.
      So if you cut the number of people and you make it suck for people to stay in you end up not having enough trained people. If you also cut schools and training time you have even lower levels of training.

    45. Re:Sigh. by Teancum · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The fear is that somehow an enemy could use that positioning data to target a U.S. Navy ship and use it in a preemptive attack.

      I agree with you in terms of a navy ship in the middle of a major shipping channel when they aren't in the middle of a war operation though. Sort of akin to a police car that shouldn't have his lights on or doing other thing than simply being an ordinary commuter in ordinary traffic when they are traveling from one point to another.

      A similar situation happens with air traffic, where military jets often don't turn on transponders to indicate position or other normal transponder information if they are on a war footing. Yes, it is dangerous and something they need to deal with as well. On the other hand, the USAF does have times those military jets do turn on transponders if they want to have civilian aviation stay out of the way or if the military jets are trying to play nice and friendly with civilian air traffic.

      Perhaps the last couple of decades of being in a continuous global war is something that is getting out of hand.

    46. Re:Sigh. by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      It could also be that the number of ships in these areas is much larger than old school pilots ever had to cope with.

      Its like more traffic leads to more auto accidents. Insurance companies know this, which is why your address is a major determining factor in insurance rates.

      We have larger population today than we did before AIS and GPS. We have a different economic landscape thanks to globalism that means a lot more commercial traffic out there.

      --
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    47. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ultimately, I think the blame probably lies with Congress.

      It always does.

    48. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For political and public safety reasons. I was a GPS Operator who turned off the SA-AS function of the GPS constellation (me and 2 other satellite operators). After Russia shot down an airliner, and Europe was concerned about relying on a US military asset, the decision was to make GPS free and open to all. No one was thinking Iran, Russia and China would create spoofers, because no one foresaw the insane explosion of implementation of GPS for timing, and navigation within all facets of our lives. Your cell phone relies on it. The farmer who created your food relies. The architect who built the building your're in may have used it. The truck next to you.. you in your car. The US Navy launching a cruise missile. All rely on these satellites which were originally just an R&D idea.

      We also didn't want Europe, Asia and everyone else launching their own GPS. Not because we are awesome, or we want to dominate, but because it degrades reception There's now additional interference depending on the spectrum GLONASS and Europe decided to use (no way of knowing back then).

      Now, if you've been paying attention, new satellites come with L5, or M-Code. These are outside the L1, L2 P and C/A code everyone uses. L5, or M-Code is encrypted and protected spectrum

    49. Re:Sigh. by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      Every officer, at the very least, should be able to navigate by sextant, compass, and longitude recordings based on speed and direction.

      I am not sure that is the problem or solution. Its not like when given the order "navigate to the port of Gibraltar" ships are ending up in Portsmouth, because crews cant plot a course across the Atlantic. This is about collision with other traffic in busy places where vessels are expected to be passing close by each other. I will admit to having never been in the navy or merchant marine but I do sail and I can use a sextant. I don't see how it would help with this problem.

      I am not in the habit of navigating by charts when my mooring or pier I want to visit is in sight! Which is not to say you don't want to have looked them over for depth and remain cognizant of channel markers etc.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    50. Re:Sigh. by deadwill69 · · Score: 1

      I so wish I had points.

    51. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, when the defense budget is so bloated for gear, there is nothing left for training people.

    52. Re: Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is impossible because making the GPS Keys Public would also inform the spoofing Party.

      And i venture to say even Mil GPS is susceptible to Replay Attacks.

      Welcome to the nasty world of electronic warfare.

      GPS only works nicely while you Fight cave dwellers who never Had a university degree in EE and CS.

    53. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because navy is outsourced to smelly shitty hindustan.

    54. Re:Sigh. by green1 · · Score: 1

      Maybe they need external vendors to train them then?

    55. Re:Sigh. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the maps would have to get updated pretty often to show other ships on them.

      I suspect a few people are confusing this story with the one about the Russians hacking GPS.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    56. Re: Sigh. by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      That is exactly why. The export version that is being produced to deliver on existing contracts is M1A2.

    57. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GPS does have an encrypted military-only signal. Which one would assume the Navy is using. The civilian-accessible signal is sent in the clear, but also comes with no assured quality of service.

    58. Re:Sigh. by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Learn on the job? Better to have someone stay on the job and learn. The computers are just so good and fast now....
      Its about getting staff and keeping staff. The need for skills or teaching navy related skills is not seen as a must do.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    59. Re:Sigh. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I don't think encryption would help stop GPS spoofing. Consider that the system was set up in the 1980s. What are the chances that a security scheme created in the 1980s and designed for 1980s hardware would stand up today? What are the chances that the private keys would not have been found or stolen by now?

      --
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    60. Re:Sigh. by Agripa · · Score: 1

      I don't think encryption would help stop GPS spoofing. Consider that the system was set up in the 1980s. What are the chances that a security scheme created in the 1980s and designed for 1980s hardware would stand up today? What are the chances that the private keys would not have been found or stolen by now?

      The problem is not any security scheme.

      One way to spoof the signals, all of them, is to simply retransmit the existing signals from a different location. Now the receivers make the timing measurements based on being at that other location. If you have a GPS receiver with a very long feedline to the antenna, then the position reported is the antenna's position and not the receiver's position. No encryption will help.

      One solution for this is to maintain a precision clock so that the inconsistency of time from this type of spoofing may be detected.

    61. Re: Sigh. by leslie.satenstein · · Score: 1

      In one example, a person's job was to do one thing, And to do it well. Enjoy.g, lathe operator. He did not need to know has to navigate. Most military jobs are like I described.

    62. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GPS is great for identifying a ship's position, but does nothing for positioning of all other shipping in the vicinity nor what courses they're on. Even in day light, all shipping should be tracked on radar. The radar operator may get overwhelmed in crowded ports and seldom is their more than one radar scope in CIC and putting two radar techs on the same scope is better than one. All Navy ships have gyroscopes. They're tied in the ship's radar systems and many gyro repeaters at many watch stations.
      Nothing beats a good watch team. I think there are two things the Navy needs to change:
      1 - Light up like a xmas tree. If all you have is running lights on, two lights is confusing among many xmas trees.
      2 - Get on the radio. The radio silence in busy ports, produces risks, the Navy should be unwilling to take.

    63. Re:Sigh. by MercTech · · Score: 1

      Sigh.... "Basic Seamanship Qualification" became a year and a half paperwork drill for skills that can be taught in a week. Is basic seamanship being able to run the ship or is it getting two sign offs on every task and knowledge point someone from a training command can think up then pass a board convened consisting of senior enlisted and commissioned officers?
      It became the latter back when I was still in service. Being competent to do something and being "qualified" became absolutely totally different things.

      Personally I don't think the pattern of mishaps in the Navy comes from a lack of redundancy in navigational methods but from a pervasive adoption of the paradigm that "Verbatim Compliance to Written Procedure is a Moral Imperative" (Quoting a certain Admiral there)
      Written procedure isn't adaptive to rapidly changing situations or situations driven by false perceptions.
      Example:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VHXRYXzEVU

      --
      NRRPT/RCT
    64. Re:Sigh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or just put someone up in a crow's nest to look out for other ships. Seriously.

    65. Re:Sigh. by Curate · · Score: 1

      All modern cellphones have GPS in them. What they *NEED* are apps that emulate a sextant.

      That's fine, as long as there are parental controls in place.

    66. Re:Sigh. by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      You have very well shown that you have absolutely no idea what is involved to be able to fly a F4 in combat. It's WAY more than being able to shift simple gears in a manual transmission. I've owned manual cars and trucks. I also have decades of flight experience and I'm not able to fly a F4. I'd require way more training and since I'm over 50 I probably wouldn't be able to pass the quickness test. Neither do many 20 year olds though I'm sure when I was 20 I could have. There are also a HELL of a lot of rules to flying that aircraft, even without the additional military rules. Just airmanship rules. You're a badass if you're an F4 pilot.

      To even compare him to being able to drive is a real insult (may you get crabs for that as one of my friends would say). As we're all aware, any idiot can get a license. I bet you have called other drivers an idiot. If you haven't, just give it some time. You will.

    67. Re:Sigh. by eric_harris_76 · · Score: 1

      Certain cynics will speculate that they got their positions through "nationalized nepotism": instead of their uncle Frank or cousin Chris getting those unqualified sailors put into those jobs, it was their Uncle Sam. Politics.

      Or maybe the Navy just can't seem to hire and retain enough competent sailors for the number of ships it has.

      Cynics might also suggest that if money needs to be spent on payroll and other benefits to get good recruits and money needs to be spent on ships that are built in Congressional districts, the funding might be skewed towards the ships -- leaving the Navy with ships without enough competent sailors.

      --
      There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
    68. Re:Sigh. by erapert · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the last couple of decades of being in a continuous global war is something that is getting out of hand.

      What? But we've always been at war with Eurasia!

      Yes, I'm implying that the non-stop global "war" is intended to produce a situation where the free people of the West gradually yield power to their governments and thus eventually allow an oligarchy to form.

    69. Re:Sigh. by D.McG. · · Score: 1

      The GP asserted that if one could fly, one could drive. I merely showed that neither skill-set is a superset of the other. I fully understand an F4 requires harder to acquire skills to operate proficiently; however, that does not translate to an honorary license to drive.

    70. Re:Sigh. by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      That's a piece of paper. That's different. I'm sure he could drive a car. Do you honestly think he couldn't? You're entitled to your opinion if that's how you feel, however I think if you asked people we're probably in the 99.9% of people would think he could drive a car if he could fly an F4 in combat. Probably 20% of the people asked would inquire what kind of a stupid question is that? Of course he can.

      Why do I say that? I used to work at a market research firm. Sometimes people would inquire about questions being asked.

  2. Next up by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

    Not to be outdone by the Navy, the army will go back to walking and emergency ration packs.

    Those guys think they're going back to the basics but they are still sailing on their big modern ships with their fancy kitchens. We're real men, we're truly going back to the basics.

    --
    #DeleteFacebook
    1. Re:Next up by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      Break out the muskets!

    2. Re:Next up by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      muskets! What are you gay? Real men just beat their enemies with a big rock!

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
  3. Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & ra by swb · · Score: 2

    Busy shipping lanes are too busy to monitor and track with paper and pencil.

    Modern shipping works because ships are able to use technology like AIS and radar to track other vessels accurately and in real time. Navigation systems -- chotplotting, AIS, radar, autopilot, and weather information -- can be tied together in real time, allowing a ship's heading and course to be altered in real time based on actual conditions at sea.

    I can definitely see the added advantages of humans with binoculars to spot closer in traffic and validate radar tracking and AIS data, but the idea that they'll just do all this in real time with paper and pencil is as silly as the SEC announcing it will combat stock fraud by switching back to pencils and paper spreadsheets.

  4. And how many weekend hikers know how to use a map? by johnstrass1 · · Score: 1

    Everyone relies too much on tech. I think semaphores is no longer taught in the NAVY. Same for morse code, even though in nearly every bad-guy movie, there is a 5% chance that the hero will tap-tap-tap a message to someone

  5. Drawback of automation by Solandri · · Score: 5, Informative

    After the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster, one of the surprising findings was that adding more inspectors could actually make things less safe. Each inspector figured if they skipped inspecting a part, the other inspector(s) would catch it. So they felt it was not that big a deal to be lazy at their job and skip a few of the harder inspections here and there. But when all the inspectors think this way, the chances of a bad part passing "inspection" increased compared to if there was only one inspector.

    In the same way, if you know there's a computer system which tracks your ship's location and the location of all other ships, and automatically sounds an alarm if it detects a collision course, then you're more likely to slack at your job and start reading slashdot or the latest J.K. Rowling book. OTOH if there is no computer system, and you and ONLY YOU are personally responsible for tracking your and that other ship's position and course to make sure you don't collide, then you're going to have 100% of your attention devoted to that task. Double or multiple redundancy works for equipment, but not always for people.

    1. Re:Drawback of automation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      if you know there's a computer system which tracks your ship's location...you're more likely to slack at your job

      To add to that, I'm nothing to do with the military but I've seen instances where people come to a conclusion which is different to the computer, but they're so used to relying on it that they presume that they're the one in the wrong, not the machine. A lot of the time a system is initially introduced as something to assist a person in coming to a conclusion in the context of other information but gets used as a total replacement and ultimate decision maker.

    2. Re:Drawback of automation by bobbied · · Score: 5, Insightful

      However, there ARE ways to enforce accuracy.... Make the bridge crew enter their manual position observations and calculations and then routinely judge the accuracy of the manual log with the automatic position logs. If there are variances, they will need to be explained. If you are not accurate enough with your manual entries, you don't keep your qualification.

      I always wondered why the Navy gave up the celestial navigation qualification requirement. Never made sense to me.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    3. Re:Drawback of automation by hey! · · Score: 2

      In 3001, Arthur C. Clarke postulated a future in which nobody really understood how anything works.

      This is entirely plausible to me given my experience growing up along with computers. I started learning about computers in the 1970s by messing around with primitive ICs; I learned to do stuff like build adders out of flip-flops. And I learned about each new technology when it came in; I programmed in assembly language on some of the earliest popular 8 bit microprocessors, but also in FORTRAN and LISP on early time sharing systems like Multics an Unix v7. I set up very early networks (back in the coax ethernet days) and configured some of the earliest network firewalls. I've been using Linux since Debian 0.93 -- the release that introduced dpkg. I was using HTML before cgi-bin was introduced, and have followed developments in web application and security ever since.

      I have closely followed computers, networks, software and systems for forty years, giving me an abstraction-down-to-nut-and-bolts understanding of computers that no millennial will ever have. And you know what I say?

      Big deal. It's almost never a practical advantage. There are millennials who have developed an understanding of the emergent behavior of high level systems that I'll probably never match.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    4. Re:Drawback of automation by Brett+Buck · · Score: 2

      That theory is axiomatic - the more people checking the less likely that errors made up front will be caught. We have know that for decades, but "adding another review" has such appeal to management that you never get rid of them. "Let's get more eyes on the problem" just ensures that the mistakes are codified forever, because it becomes so onerous to change something (and take weeks/months/years to get through the review process) that you try to work around it somehow, even if you find the problem.

            There's another level of the same thinking that is all the vogue here, now -- "AI". That is an even larger step along the same direction, also one I have seen in various guises for decades now. That's why perfectly capable people drive their Teslas into the side of a truck.

    5. Re:Drawback of automation by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      OTOH if there is no computer system, and you and ONLY YOU are personally responsible for tracking your and that other ship's position and course to make sure you don't collide, then you're going to have 100% of your attention devoted to that task.

      Did you miss the part about 100 hour work-weeks? If you're relying on people to be very sharp for a job, that's not how you accomplish that. I very much doubt that most people can focus 100% attention for half that much time, and probably even less than that.
       
      Attention is a commodity with finite resource. Brains need to rest. I'd bet that this factor alone was a major cause of these incidents. If they do what you're suggesting and don't significantly adjust the workload, that's just adding fuel to the fire. Asking people to do a more cognitively difficult task when they're overworked, stressed, and sleep-deprived definitely isn't a solution.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    6. Re:Drawback of automation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think we're talking about getting an accurate position on earth here. We're talking about position in relation to other vessels, which having an extremely accurate fix won't necessarily be of any value - especially if those other vessels are also moving. Most ships have several highly accurate position measuring devices already, and even with this data, there were collisions.

    7. Re:Drawback of automation by Xylantiel · · Score: 1

      You will never actually have 100% of your attention devoted to a task full-time. There are known good ways to manage this sort of thing, but they require actual effort at system design, training, and validation, not just doing things ad-hoc and hoping for the best. That the "new" things mentioned in the article weren't already standard is rather sad.

    8. Re:Drawback of automation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In 3001, Arthur C. Clarke postulated a future in which nobody really understood how anything works.

      Also see Asimov: "Nine times seven, thought Shuman with deep satisfaction, is sixty-three, and I don't need a computer to tell me so. The computer is in my own head. And it was amazing the feeling of power that gave him."

    9. Re:Drawback of automation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have a beard? I think that makes all the difference.

    10. Re:Drawback of automation by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      However, there ARE ways to enforce accuracy.... Make the bridge crew enter their manual position observations and calculations and then routinely judge the accuracy of the manual log with the automatic position logs. If there are variances, they will need to be explained. If you are not accurate enough with your manual entries, you don't keep your qualification.

      Ways, yes, there are ways.

      I know how it used to work, anyway, for engineering. You had to know how every system worked, including (to an extent) stuff you didn't work on yourself (extensive schooling before you ever got to a ship). You had to take log readings on all sorts of equipment, however often it took to make sure you were really walking around looking at stuff (and of course to see trends, etc.); hourly, half hour, 15 min, depended on the reading. You stood watch under someone else until you had qualified yourself, got your qual cards signed off (knows this, has demonstrated that, etc.).

      And yet ... all systems can be gamed. Take enough real logs, and you can scribble out some fake ones if you didn't make your rounds in time. Just sign the guy's qual card; we need him so we can go three section. It came down to people, getting the right people. The right combination of smarts, aptitude, and duty.

    11. Re:Drawback of automation by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Then you design a system that's going to catch such attempts to bypass the checks, if not today, eventually. Punish those who get caught trying game the system.

      You can greatly reduce such things by making it take two or more persons to sacrifice their ethics to do so. Rotate the responsibility for cross checking regularly and you make it even harder to find a group of people willing to participate. Sure, you and your buddy might be able to fool the system, for awhile, but eventually you both get found out.

      So gaming the system may not be prevented, but you can design the system to catch such things eventually.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    12. Re:Drawback of automation by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      And then you design a system to catch people gaming the system designed to catch people gaming the system. This can go on forever. Also, as the system gets more and more rigid, it's more likely that it will force intelligent and qualified people to do the exact wrong thing at some times, and require paperwork when they should be paying attention to something else.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    13. Re:Drawback of automation by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Once upon a time, I was in a car with five other people, and we had a flat tire. I wound up trying to take the tire off. I could just barely budge the lug nuts. The other guys tried, and the driver got the car to a gas station, where the mechanic told us "That's a X, it has left-hand threads on the left wheels" and the problem was solved.

      I have a little right-left confusion sometimes, and it was worse back then. If I'd been on my own, I'd have tried turning it the other way, and I would have gotten the lug nuts off. However, with five other people looking at me, I knew I had to be turning in the right direction, and didn't want to look stupid by turning the wrench in the wrong direction.

      Just having people around can enforce group expectations, even when they're wrong.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    14. Re:Drawback of automation by bobbied · · Score: 2

      Sure, but the idea here is to make a system that requires two or more people to concur that the activity got done. This is commonly done for critical activities.

      I fully get that no system is fool proof and that a sufficiently motivated group could bypass it. However, my point here is that there are effective ways to make the gaming of a system harder than compliance and/or design a system that makes it nearly impossible to get away with gaming the system because eventually you will be detected. Such systems need not be complex or time consuming to implement.

      Remember, this is a risk management technique. One needs to gauge the risks and costs of any system like any other risk management effort.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    15. Re:Drawback of automation by lexman098 · · Score: 1

      I learned to do stuff like build adders out of flip-flops.

      That's extremely impressive. You're going to have to explain that one to me.

  6. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

    I'm pretty sure most people know the morse code for the letters "O" and "S".

    --
    #DeleteFacebook
  7. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What if you can't trust your electronic instruments?

  8. Navy regulations are written in blood ... by perpenso · · Score: 2

    An uncle who served on destroyers long ago told me that "Navy regulations are written in blood". That regulations and training say this is the proper way to do something and you will do it in no other way. That the "proper way" was determined by people dying when it was done otherwise. That some ways of doing things are more than "tradition".

    1. Re:Navy regulations are written in blood ... by hduff · · Score: 1

      An uncle who served on destroyers long ago told me that "Navy regulations are written in blood". That regulations and training say this is the proper way to do something and you will do it in no other way. That the "proper way" was determined by people dying when it was done otherwise. That some ways of doing things are more than "tradition".

      The right way.

      The wrong way.

      The NAVY way.

      --
      "I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
  9. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just wait until Tesla unleashes autodriving on the American freeway. There will be carnage and lawsuits and tens of thousands of people dead and dying. Some idiots are looking forward to this because they are too lazy to keep their hands on the wheel, not realizing that it will cost them the horrible and painful death of their entire family.

  10. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by perpenso · · Score: 1

    Perhaps the 5x5 tap code is easier than morse. If the 5x5 code forgotten it can be reconstructed.

  11. Re: Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There are already tens of thousands of dead and dying, so it looks to be an equal tradeoff if what you claim is true.

  12. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I've sailed all my life with charts and without GPS. It's absolutely doable. You don't need weather info in real time. The weather doesn't change that fast. Traffic that poses immediate risk can be handled visually. Long term traffic is knowable via VHS. Autopilot shouldn't be used without a lookout. You're only using a chart and compass for the overall route anyway. If you're looking at radar to avoid an immediate hazard, you're doing it wrong.

  13. convenient timing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Has nothing to do with those GPS scramblers we heard about last week I'm sure...

  14. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by D.McG. · · Score: 2

    In the case of espionage, if the nav systems are compromised, it would be good to know how to navigate by hand; to know what the computer is automating. Relying solely on the computer to steer the boat is a point of failure. I'm fine with them learning how to navigate manually. If their data contradicts the computer's, then identify which is wrong, and if it's the computer, that's a huge discovery. It's a backup AND check. TFA does not state that the nav systems are being replaced or shut down.

  15. B52 pilots and Cessna 150 pilots by perpenso · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When the navigation computer has to reboot on the B-52 bomber, the crew breaks out the slide ruler and map to figure out where they're going.

    Yes, but the E6B slide rule is not something that ever went obsolete like traditional slide rules. The E6B was still used in ground school in the 1990s, might still be used in classrooms today. And many pilots still carry one in their bag, next to the paper chart and a flashlight, just in case. Its not a B-52 or a military thing. We're talking Cessna 150 pilots too.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

  16. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

    I'd not come across that before, but it's a pretty poor code. In English, the frequency of the letter e is 12.7%, yet it's 6 taps in that code. In contrast, f is only 2.2%, yet is 3 taps. The five most common letters in English are (in order) e, t, a, o, i. In tap code, they are 6, 8, 1, 7, and 6 taps: of the five most common letters, only one requires fewer than the average number of taps. In contrast, in Morse, they are 1, 1, 2, 3, and 2 taps.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  17. Most of Navy leadership is dumb as toast. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I have a relative in SURFLANT who tried teaching juniors how to use a sextant for fun and for just in case. He was told to stop.

  18. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by swb · · Score: 2

    What if you can't trust your electronic instruments?

    Presumably part of the reason you have lookouts is for this reason, but if you *always* believe your instruments to be unreliable then your navigation is limited to what you can visually see.

    I'm not saying they should only rely on AIS & radar, obviously a military ship should validate those systems' targets which should be in visual range. But those electronic systems can actually do a great job of predicting potential collisions, especially AIS. It's literally a broadcast of a ship's position, heading and speed. Even consumer marine electronics can produce collision prediction and course plotting for these targets.

    The Navy's problem isn't that technology doesn't work, it's that they're not using it.

  19. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by hey! · · Score: 1

    Hikers shmikers. Every time I use my GPS to navigate in my car and can feel my brain cells rotting away...

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  20. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because they can be spoofed and sometimes are.
    A simple "watch the radar screen" and "plot the contacts" works.
    Letting the machine do it works most of the time, except when it doesn't, and no one notices.
    Plotting closest point of approach is simple with pencil and paper (polar coordinate paper).
     

  21. planing for a North Korea attack where GPS may not by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    planing for a North Korea attack where GPS may not work right in some worst case scenarios.

  22. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by SScorpio · · Score: 2

    So it's the qwerty of the code world. Maybe it was designed to prevent printers/typewriters from jamming to.

  23. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by perpenso · · Score: 2

    It wasn't devised for efficiency, for day to day use. It was devised for simplicity, for use in an emergency by nearly anyone. Its what would get used in the "movie scenes" with the "tap tap tap", when one sailor is trying to communicate with someone in the neighboring cell. It was a primary means of communications by isolated POWs in Vietnam.

    Morse may have been standard training at the Naval Academy but I don't think all enlisted were taught morse. Signalmen and radiomen certainly, but others, not so sure. Two uncles served in the Navy long ago. When I asked one about morse he said to talk to his brother, that his brother was the radioman.

  24. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    In tap code, they are 6, 8, 1, 7, and 6 taps: of the five most common letters, only one requires fewer than the average number of taps. In contrast, in Morse, they are 1, 1, 2, 3, and 2 taps.

    Maybe so, but any idiot can sketch themselves a 5x5 grid to use as a reference to send code. Using Morse would require memorizing a complete alphabet of codes and retaining it through years of non-use until that one time it was suddenly needed. The grid may not be efficient, but it's a lot simpler for someone who doesn't use codes day-to-day.

  25. Ships are jokes nowadays by nospam007 · · Score: 2

    "...will now broadcast their positions as do other vessels. "

    So the 'other vessels' will have to take care of avoiding them, what about lighthouses and islands and other dangerous pieces of 'land'?
    And they are supposed to notice missiles coming at them from hundreds of miles at supersonic speeds?

    1. Re:Ships are jokes nowadays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, my family was Air Force and not Navy. However I can imagine at least one reason why Navy ships might not have been transmitting position information.

      During times of conflict you don't want to be doing this. It's great for your team and it's even greater for the opposition, during a war, to know where you are.

      In places and at times when there is no conflict however, perhaps cooperating with civilian locator systems might be a good idea. Ultimately the Navy needs to determine how that will work.

    2. Re:Ships are jokes nowadays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the 'other vessels' will have to take care of avoiding them, what about lighthouses and islands and other dangerous pieces of 'land'?

      Speaking of lighthouses...

    3. Re:Ships are jokes nowadays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Little power switch with a light on it sitting on the bridge that powers the notification system. If they are in conflict area, flip it off, if they aren't flip it on... but I'm sure they will need paper work filed in triplicate, processes in a FiFo method by a clerk who only works 9-5 mountain time, paper work of course has to be sent using Satellite FoIP. I'm sure engineering and electrical teams all need to clear the extra wattage so not to tax the bridge systems with the light running... I kid I kid... or am i,

    4. Re:Ships are jokes nowadays by sysrammer · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's a funny old joke. I read it in the Navy Times in the 70's, and it was prolly hoary then. The joke has more versions than Firefox. I'm glad it made it to youtube. Those arrogant Americans! What a country!

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
    5. Re:Ships are jokes nowadays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reminds me of an old joke...

      Believe it or not, this is the transcript of an actual radio conversation between a US naval ship and Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in October 1995. The Radio conversation was released by the Chief of Naval Operations on Oct. 10, 1995.

      US Ship: Please divert your course 0.5 degrees to the south to avoid a collision.

      CND reply: Recommend you divert your course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.

      US Ship: This is the Captain of a US Navy Ship. I say again, divert your course.

      CND reply: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course!

      US Ship: THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS CORAL SEA*, WE ARE A LARGE WARSHIP OF THE US NAVY. DIVERT YOUR COURSE NOW!!

      CND reply: This is a lighthouse. Your call.

  26. Reeling and writhing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    The problem is that while most sailors knows someone who can read or write, only officers can read and write. Therefore, going back to pencil and paper may not be good enough. They need to start with crayons.

    1. Re:Reeling and writhing... by ISoldat53 · · Score: 2

      My CO required us to plot contacts (course, speed and intercept course) on the radar screen using essentially a crayon (grease pencil) and nothing else. This on the fishing grounds with more contacts than could be counted trawling in every direction in weather you can't imagine. This was with a three man bridge crew. I can't imagine a Navy ship having a collision at sea today.

  27. All it takes . . . by hduff · · Score: 1

    All it takes is for people to pay attention.

    --
    "I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
  28. It's called .. by Stephen+Battleware · · Score: 1

    .. crosschecking: a good practice for many things.

  29. Our "HUGE" push to automated control by oldgraybeard · · Score: 2

    Does make some sense to have humans in the loop, with both the knowledge and the manual tools to at the least double check and keep an eye on things.

    So where does that leave the "RAPID AT ALL COSTS PUSH" to autonomous unmanned ships at sea, airliners in the air, heavy trucks on the roads and cars with no drivers or controls for manual use.

    I am not against these things, I just think the path to get there is longer than most think. Since you often have to alter code for the exceptions that were not predicted or expected during the design and testing phases.

  30. That got answered previously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    At least for officers, the basic navigational and shiphandling courses got replaced by a dvd set.

    I'm not kidding.

    1. Re:That got answered previously by freeze128 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Are these DVD's available to civilians? I would like to learn how to handle a battleship.

    2. Re:That got answered previously by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      Wow, then it's obviously time to upgrade to the whole thing to a Blu-ray set.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    3. Re:That got answered previously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are these DVD's available to civilians? I would like to learn how to handle a battleship.

      The battleship handling class never made it to DVD, you'll have to settle for VHS. :-)

    4. Re:That got answered previously by Trogre · · Score: 1

      Locked to Region 1, I presume.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
  31. Out of the box solution by Nidi62 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How about we just stop with all the "war on X"s? When you are constantly on a war footing training takes a backseat and duty patterns change, leading to fatigue. In the Navy's case ships are kept out of port for much longer than they should, meaning many repairs are done underway which leads to a further reduction of training time and off duty time for the sailors. Stop wasting money on massively overbudget projects like the DDX/Zumwalt program (only 3 ships produced for a cost of almost $4 billion per ship) or the LCSs which are under-gunned, have engine issues, and have hulls so poorly made that one got cracked from a champagne bottle at the christening. $12 billion just from the DDX program would have gone a long way towards refitting ships and training current/more crews for said ships. And let's not even get started on the F-35 program.....

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    1. Re:Out of the box solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hush now, someone has to keep the shareholders happy and the tax payers are a great source of income. Besides a little duck tape and the hole is fine even though it quacks now and then.

    2. Re:Out of the box solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ^Minor fact check, seems like the item about hull damage from being hit by a champagne bottle might be a hoax. Near as I could tell it originally came from a parody news site ( https://www.duffelblog.com/ )

    3. Re:Out of the box solution by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      ^Minor fact check, seems like the item about hull damage from being hit by a champagne bottle might be a hoax. Near as I could tell it originally came from a parody news site ( https://www.duffelblog.com/ )

      Fair enough, I picked that as an example for dramatic effect, but the LCS vessels have been notorious for hull issues and damage.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    4. Re:Out of the box solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The champagne bottle crack is from the satire site Duffelblog. They do have hull issues, but that isn't one of them.

    5. Re:Out of the box solution by sysrammer · · Score: 1

      This would have been the more appropriate linkage nowadays...
      https://www.duffelblog.com/201...

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
  32. Re:B52 Bombers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When the navigation computer goes toes-up on ANY aircraft, the crew breaks out the charts to keep track of their location & course. The B-52 is old, but that response to a failing instrument is no different than on any other aircraft.

  33. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

    AIS is great on a ship until you end up at Moscow Airport. The fact that the Navy didn't use it in busy shipping lanes previously seems quite stupid, and if their ships have radar absorbing properties it becomes all the more important.

  34. Re:B52 Bombers... by bobbied · · Score: 1

    Good navigators ALWAYS have a map out with their last known position and expected flight path marked on it. I don't care WHO you are or what kind of navigation system you have, good practice demands that a pilot keep situational awareness as sharp as possible, meaning that you are keeping track of where you are, the status of your equipment and where the nearest emergency diversion airfield might be.

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  35. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by ISoldat53 · · Score: 1

    A lesson many programmers could take to heart.

  36. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by Grishnakh · · Score: 0

    This is dumb. American drivers are already too lazy and stupid to drive properly and attentively, and as a result, we have tens of thousands dead every year on the road (about 30k, last I checked). The number has gone down, though (used to be 50k/year), thanks to safer vehicles (airbags, better crashworthiness, etc.).

    Autodriving can only make things better. Sure, it'll fail sometimes and people will die, but it'll be an order of magnitude fewer than now.

    If you want *real* safety, we need to 1) legislatively *require* auto-driving software to be developed to avionics standards, not developed the way most software is these days, and 2) we need to fund and build SkyTran to get most people (esp. commuters) out of personally-owned vehicles, and to get them to their destinations much more quickly than the 2-dimensional road system allows.

  37. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    Yep, you just convinced me. I looked up the Wikipedia page for tap code, spend about 30 seconds looking at it, and now I can say I know how to use tap code, because the table is so simple (the only "hard" thing to memorize is that K shares C's space). By contrast, I don't know Morse Code, even though I had a little interest in it when I was young. All I remember now is how to signal SOS.

    Definitely a good example of simplicity and ease-of-learning trumping efficiency.

  38. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    I don't; it offloads something that used to be a pain in the ass, and adds clairvoyance too.

    I remember driving without GPS very well; I've spent more years without it than with it, after all. Driving any place that I wasn't familiar with was a PITA: you had to get verbal directions from people, which were completely unreliable, only worked from one direction, etc. Or you had to study maps and try to figure out exactly where "123 Main St" is on a road that runs for miles, and frequently has the same street number used in different places (e.g., "123 Main St NW" vs "123 Main St SE", and the idiot who gave you the address didn't bother giving you either NW or SE). Good luck even finding a street number on many maps, and when you did get nearby, good luck actually seeing the street numbers on any of the buildings in the vicinity to help you find it.

    Now, it's easy: fire up Google Maps, type in the *name* of where you want to go, it shows it to you on the map, select it to verify that's where you want to go (there might be multiple places with that name, as with chain stores), the hit "navigate" and it'll tell you how to get there, turn-by-turn.

    Even better, it can tell you if there's any traffic jams along the way, and route you around them if feasible. Before GPS, that required you to have ESP, which obviously isn't real, or maybe listening to some radio station and hoping to hear a useful traffic report in time, between all the ads and crappy music. Now it's routine. (Also, those traffic reports weren't that useful; they only reported on really big jams on main highways in large metro areas, not smaller jams elsewhere.)

  39. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by Strider- · · Score: 1

    The thing is that with modern navigational systems, it's pretty easy to detect GPS spoofing. Let's say it happens.. Suddenly, the data coming off your GPS unit isn't going to match up with the rest of the sensors installed on the ship. In addition to the GPS, ships carry gyrocompasses, speed logs, and other sensors.

    Modern navigational suites are supposed to compare the SOG derived from the GPS with the STW (Speed Through Water) from the speed log. If they're more than, say, 6kt out from each other (to allow for current), it throws an alarm. Same thing with gyro heading and COG from the GPS.

    Lastly, an observant crew should notice that something is wrong as if they get spoofed to a place far enough away, their satcom suite should become very unhappy as the computed angles to the satellites they're targetting will be wrong enough they can't track any more.

    As far as the AIS thing goes, all I have to say is "Finally"... The US Navy is pretty much alone in western nations in not participating in AIS during peacetime. As a recreational sailor, I always follow the rule "If it's grey, stay away" but that's hard to do if you don't know they're there. I'm in the PNW, and more than a few times I've been out sailing in the islands, come around a point, and been surprised to come across a (small) warship that was hidden by the headland. Had they been participating in AIS, I could have better avoided them.

    --
    ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
  40. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by Strider- · · Score: 2

    With all that said, though, AIS & Radar massively improve safety by radically improving your situational awareness, especially in foul weather. I was sailing up in the Broughton Archipelago. On a couple of occasions we got stuck out in dense fog, where we could see maybe 150m or so. We kept an appropriate watch, with the other guy onboard maintaining a bow watch, emitting appropriate fog signals, etc... but the radar was a huge help, especially to ensure we remained in channel.

    On that same trip, we were crossing Queen Charlotte Straight, and passed (in fog) within 2 nautical miles of the Crystal Serenity (largest cruise ship on the Alaska run this year), and the only reason we knew she was there was due to AIS, seeing her on radar, and her crew being active on the VHF. Had we not known she was there, our original course would have brought us too close for comfort.

    So yes, it's doable, but done right, the modern aids are a huge improvement in situational awareness and safety.

    --
    ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
  41. Re:planing for a North Korea attack where GPS may by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    He's not talking about planing wood, silly. He's obviously talking about hydroplaning. They're going to replace all their destroyers with these...

  42. lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was legal to fly by myself before I was legal to drive myself to the airport.....

    Signed off to fly solo on 16th birthday...driver's ed didn't finish for another month or two yet, so couldn't get a driver's license yet :(

    and, umm, how did those ships get where they are? Don't think some random dude parks those things :O

    One hopes they included: LOOK OUT THE WINDOWS as part of the procedures also ! Don't want those pesky cargo ships sneaking up on you.

    1. Re:lol by Voyager529 · · Score: 1

      and, umm, how did those ships get where they are? Don't think some random dude parks those things :O

      One hopes they included: LOOK OUT THE WINDOWS as part of the procedures also ! Don't want those pesky cargo ships sneaking up on you.

      My interpretation of the summary is that this is precisely the problem.

  43. Re:B52 Bombers... by rjune · · Score: 2

    No, good navigators always have CHART out. However, the navigator has been replaced on most aircraft with a GPS.

  44. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by avandesande · · Score: 1

    They want to sailors to understand what the software does and why it does it. No different than doing arithmetic with a pencil.

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
  45. Where DOES the money go? by rbrander · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's hilarious to read comments and posts about how this is due to "budget cutting". These cuts are not perceptible at taxpayer level. https://www.statista.com/stati... ...yes, there's a "drop" in there from 2011-2016, but I believe that's in overseas adventuring. Far more importantly, the "drop" is to the 2008 budget, more than double the 2000 budget, when there were few of these collisions. It's now nearly $2000 per American citizen. Add up all spending on Pentagon, DOE (nukes), DVA, and the spy/surveillance services, debt servicing, and it's a trillion a year, nearly $10,000 per household.

    And yet, there isn't enough money for the PEOPLE in the American military, not even enough for their really basic training. Is is really all blown on overpriced weapons systems? Can't you include training in the weapons-system budget or something? Sneak it in.

    1. Re:Where DOES the money go? by k6mfw · · Score: 1

      Can't you include training in the weapons-system budget or something? Sneak it in.

      I'm thinking back in the days when military had to take hundreds of thousands of millions of men (and women) and train them from shooting, fixing engines, assembling radio stations, etc. when entering WWII. Also had to get lot more officers (a four year degree not necessary) and a lot of NCOs to manage all these privates and sailors. These days the number of people in the military is, what? 1%?, or something small. there are less tanks, ships, planes (but each one these days far more deadly and accurate). Maybe we just can't train lots of people anymore?

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
    2. Re:Where DOES the money go? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Contractors overtime to fix all the unexpected issues in port.
      New look weapons systems get funding.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    3. Re:Where DOES the money go? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      In wartime, inadequate training results in casualties and damage. In peacetime, inadequate training results in casualties and damage once war comes. It took time to get training establishments functioning for WWII, and we had the advantage of not having to fight Germany for months after war was declared. The Navy was probably the best prepared of the services, and we suffered horrible losses off the Eastern Seaboard for months.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  46. Celestial Navigation is being taught again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    on the Great Lakes.
    caught that in an article last year, Celestial navigation has made it back into the curriculum. Now factor in a 3 to 4 year window before you see any results of that into the system (training enough people in the arts, & getting them in enough mustard in chief positions, yada yada. in other words it takes time for solutions to take effect, unlike. Hence it is gonna take a year or two before the navy finally changes course to a core competent naval force,,,, again. Because in the long run, nothing beats reinventing the wheel every two generations. (P.S. yes, yes it is Master Chief, but if you can't be creative you shouldn't join.)

  47. Exercise in futile by u19925 · · Score: 1

    In digital world, your security and privacy can be compromised by others even if you do all due diligence. Many of my friends and relatives have my birthdate, phone, address, email, anniversary etc in their contacts. They readily give permission to read contacts to every imaginable app. How do I keep this info private? I can't.

    Navy can go to pencil and drawing board, but how will it prevent other ships getting fooled by GPS spoofing? The only benefit I see here is that they will be able to file a civil suit against the other ship.

  48. Lack of training, not automation problems by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 1

    NPR had an interesting take on this recently. It seems that seamen have received less and less training over the last few years, an effort to save money. Now the chickens are coming home to roost.

    1. Re:Lack of training, not automation problems by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      Indeed, this is tragic. But consider - how much training does anyone here get at work? Not much, we do it ourselves (something I am NOT advocating for the Navy and NOT saying is a good idea). And how many people have died due to software errors that may have been avoided by proper training? My guess is the number is probably considerable. This is a high profile case - and with something so intricately involved with national security, not a good thing at all.

  49. Re:B52 Bombers... by bobbied · · Score: 1

    Touché

    Chart, map... Not many know the difference..

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  50. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  51. The work gulag runs the bridge. by i286NiNJA · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's so much more than that. The bridge is manned by deck, which are the same guys who make the ship pretty and they also have their hands in a bunch of other shit.... but the most important thing to the pissbaby CO is how much paint he can get these kids to put on the ship so the admiral will say "OH BOY THE SHIP LOOKS GREAT". They make these guys sweep and paint nonstop until some of them kill themselves no joke.

    The most relaxing times for these guys are lunch, watch, pooping, and the few hours a day they get for sleep.. and if they have watch during sleep time.. they simply get no sleep! For them free time is measured in minutes a day, they sleep and poop at the same time. It's an absolutely unimaginable way to live. Doing a watch that would be the same as a normal civilian workday might have been the only time these guys weren't doing hard labor in the past 24 hours.

    1. Re:The work gulag runs the bridge. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Let me lay it out for you. If you join the Navy and get any kind of decent ASVAB score you will get assigned to a service 'A' school and become a technician. If you don't you get sent to a ship's deck division, where your job is to clean and paint and stand deck watches.
      So basically the deck division consists of the least capable people on the ship. Every officer who stands Officer of the Deck has another job, except for the deck officer who is in charge of deck division. These other officers supervise cooks and admin types and technicians. The First Lieutenant supervises these guys.
      Working hours on a ship is no joke. Basically you stand watch on a 4 and 8 rotation. Four hours on watch and eight off. Now if that 8 happens between 7 in the morning and 5 in the afternoon you're working. If your a tech you're doing periodic maintenance or troubleshooting. If you're in deck you are doing painting and cleaning, because that' all the skills you have. So a typical day is up at 4 am to stand watch. Get off watch at 8 and start working. (You got 20 minutes for breakfast somewhere in there.) Work until noon. 1 hour for lunch. 1 until 4 more work. Take the watch at 4. Watch 4 to 6. (Dog watch.) Off from 6 until midnight and then back on watch. (There's only three watch sections, remember?) Watch midnight until 4. 4-6 sleep. Reveille at 6. Relieve the 4 watch for 20 minutes so they can eat. Etc. You sleep (broken) about 8 hours a night, maybe.
      What usually happens is that in that 6 to midnight time when you should be sleeping you find that there's some work the Department Head, Division Officer or Division Chief needs done that keeps you up until 10, so you only get 2 hours sleep before watch.
      On a small gas turbine ship you have to refuel about every three days. That's usually done at night (like it would be during wartime) and that means everybody's up from midnight to 3 am, and you still half to get up at Reveille at 6 and work all day (when you're not on watch.)
      100 weeks are common and Saturday and usually Sunday are workdays too. (On Sunday Reveille might be at 7 and if the ship is a carrier you might even get 45 min off for worship services, if you do that sort of thing.)
      It pretty much sucks. Compare to working on a Merchant Marine ship where watches count as work time and anything over 40 hours is OT for enlisted.
      No military reason for it either, other than to squeeze every last bit out of all the sailors.

    2. Re:The work gulag runs the bridge. by lgw · · Score: 1

      6 days you work, hard as you are able; on the seventh holystone the deck and scrub the cable.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    3. Re:The work gulag runs the bridge. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, are all the armed forces that idiotic, or just the Navy?

    4. Re:The work gulag runs the bridge. by i286NiNJA · · Score: 1

      Well uhm that's more or less everything I said. Except you started by shitting on deck but it does well to prove my point that they're basically considered subhumans and treated like garbage for 16 hours a day before standing a watch. Truth is that if they run out of billets they start kicking people out of A school and they go to deck.

    5. Re:The work gulag runs the bridge. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's so much more than that. The bridge is manned by deck, which are the same guys who make the ship pretty and they also have their hands in a bunch of other shit

      Not when I was in. The only deck crew were the seamen qualified to steer the ship. It was always the quartermasters, and navigator. In a harbor we brought aboard a pilot certified for that port. Of course all that was almost 60 years ago. Things have probably changed since then.

    6. Re:The work gulag runs the bridge. by mcswell · · Score: 1

      When I was in the Navy (1972-1975), unreps were nearly always in the daytime, even when we were off Nam. Did they really start doing them at night instead?

      And yes, There I Was...

    7. Re:The work gulag runs the bridge. by mcswell · · Score: 1

      Working hours were (back in the 70s, at least) much shorter in port, at least if we had shore services (so we didn't have to run the engineering plant to generate electricity). And while things were really bad when we were on deployment, once back at home port we spent a good deal of time--I'd say over 50%--tied up to the pier. It sounds like it's worse now, in that they don't spend much time in port.

      Also, if you stayed in (I didn't), chances were your next assignment would be to shore duty, meaning more or less normal business hours.

  52. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lastly, an observant crew should notice that something is wrong as if they get spoofed to a place far enough away, their satcom suite should become very unhappy as the computed angles to the satellites they're targetting will be wrong enough they can't track any more.

    GPS has an omni-directional antenna. You don't know the angle to the satellites. GPS coordinates are based off the difference in time from the various satellites the receiver gets signal from.

  53. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by demonlapin · · Score: 1

    Not only is it great for that, it works just as well in other countriea. I could do it without GPS and traffic info, but boy would it be a lot less effective. It has saved me many, many hours of frustration. The only hard part is figuring out when it's confused, which is rare but not unheard-of, especially if there's an unexpected road closure.

  54. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can trust electronics in peacetime. You can't when there's a war - especially if Russians somehow 'advice' the other side. But in a war, you are not meeting a lot of other ships. You fire at them as they come within reach of your guns - until you're hit badly.

    A tanker is not going to ram a warship during war - they'll sink it before it gets too close.

  55. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because the whole point is to have a code that is easy to remember. Who knows the frequency of all the letters in various languages? Sure, 'E' is the most frequent in English - what is the seventeenth most frequent? Everybody knows the order of the alphabet.

  56. Arthur C. Clarke by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

    I haven't read Clarke this decade, but I think 'The City and the Stars' might be somewhat closer to a description of "a future in which nobody really understood how anything works."

    I'm deeply impressed by your geek credentials. What sorts of things do you get into these days?

    --
    Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
  57. admirals now googling "How to Use a Sextant"?? by laurencetux · · Score: 1

    it does not matter how fancy your nav stuff is worst case you should be able to run with

    "Is the Sun Coming UP?? PUT IT ON THE LEFT"

    and if you have to post seaman with Lanterns then a Captain might want to be current on the correct colors and such

    1. Re:admirals now googling "How to Use a Sextant"?? by sysrammer · · Score: 1

      ...and the butterbars are googling "What is a Sextant"??

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
  58. I never understood the love of working exhausted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I never understood the military love of working exhausted. The Army loves it too. under man and overextend. Then when bad things happen blame the men. Obviously it is need occasionally. War is about pushing it. But it is not a badge of Courage.

  59. The only solution... by cyn1c77 · · Score: 2

    ... is to make the Navy ship hulls and engines stronger, so they can just drive though any other boat.

    Then they can just pilot around at ramming speed all the time!

    1. Re:The only solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You joke, but this is what the Chinese are doing. Look at the size of their coast guard and fishery enforcement ships being built. Larger ships can ram smaller ships in the international waters of the East and South China seas, which China claims sovereignty, without resorting to using weapons, which can cause much more serious escalation and international scrutiny. It's a strategy that's working well to slowly change the status quo to Chinese favor, as they slowly extend their control of the maritime domain within the first island chain.

  60. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    Yeah, once in a while it gets confused, but it's usually pretty obvious. That's a lot better than the "old days" where I had to drive around in circles looking for some little road to turn onto, or figure out what someone meant by the "3rd right turn", or try to find some street address.

  61. Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if a bunch of crewmen coming out of the complete trainwreck that is American education, and can't operate simple navigation systems on 5 hours of sleep, how would you expect them to be able to do the same with traditional means?

    Your crew 1) lacks education, and 2) are overworked. Pens, charts, and compasses will not fix it.

  62. Easy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Two words: affirmative action.

  63. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by DarkOx · · Score: 1

    The GPs point was that other satcom systems are not omni-directional but rather require you to point the antennae at the bird; which you know how to do as a function of where the satellite should be and where you are currently. If your knowledge of position is based on GPS and its spoofed by a large amount you will not be able to properly point your other communications systems.

    --
    Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
  64. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by bws111 · · Score: 1

    Google Maps does not tell you where there will be a traffic jam, it tells you where there IS a traffic jam. Unless you are either IN the jam (in which case it is too late) or VERY close to the jam, that information is near useless.

    Just yesterday, on a long trip with friends, I had two experiences with Google Maps. First, my friend is driving on a 4-lane highway, and traffic comes to a stop. I look at Maps, and it shows the problem is construction about a mile ahead. But Maps helpfully suggests an alternate route. This 'alternate route' was a single-lane windy road, that ended at the intersection of another 4-lane highway. It doesn't take much sense to know that if a bunch of people follow that route (and it was clear that they were), that road is going to get VERY backed up at that intersection. Decided to stay on the original route, and was through it in about 10 minutes. By the time we made it through, the ALTERNATE route was solid red. Those poor suckers were stuck in that mess for at least a half hour.

    Second situation - farther along we are about 2 hours from home, and everyone is getting tired. I am now driving, and my friend asks me how I plan to go. I tell him the route I usually take. He says Maps says it is 10 minutes quicker to go another way. A few seconds of discussion and we realize that the suggested route is going to go right past an NFL stadium, and we should arrive at that point about 1/2 hour after the game ends. No thanks! We looked at Maps later, at about the time we would be there, and it was one solid mass of red, nobody was going anywhere.

    The only thing I find GPS and Maps good for is pinpointing a location. The actual routes they choose are seldom what I would call the best routes (for instance, I think it is worth a few extra minutes to go on a route that has lower stress than a fast-but-insane-traffic route).

  65. a little history by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wouldn't automatically assume that modern sailors are lazy and incompetent and previous generations were much better. From Wikipedia:
    "The Honda Point disaster was the largest peacetime loss of U.S. Navy ships. On the evening of September 8, 1923, seven destroyers, while traveling at 20 knots (37 km/h), ran aground at Honda Point, a few miles from the northern side of the Santa Barbara Channel off Point Arguello on the coast in Santa Barbara County, California. Two other ships grounded, but were able to maneuver free of the rocks. Twenty-three sailors died in the disaster."

  66. Quit pissing, Yuri... by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    Give me a stopwatch and a map and I'll fly the Alps in a plane with no windows.

  67. GPS denial is a mode they plan for by mpercy · · Score: 1

    GPS denial or GPS spoofing are very real and very much in view of military planners, trainers, etc.

    Maybe some ship captains were not keeping up with training for these cases as they should have been?

  68. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by edi_guy · · Score: 1

    But unlike the examples in the related story: https://tech.slashdot.org/stor... In order to create a collision in a busy channel you only need to put the ship a few hundred meters out of place to hit another ship. Possibly a narrow enough margin not to be detected as spoofing. That and the lack of basic skills, listening to the VHF, binoculars on watch, knowing navigation lights, etc etc. With a full deck on watch, just visually scanning there shouldn't be these fatal accidents even if instigated by bad actors.

  69. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by Strider- · · Score: 1

    Right, but think about how GPS actually works. Each satellite is transmitting a precise time signal, and the receiver determines its position through trilateration. It basically measures the distance to each of the satellites in orbit, based on the path delay between the satellite and the receiver. Spoofing works by replacing the signals received from the satellite with one of earth origin.

    What you can't do when spoofing a position is replicate the geometry (and thus differences in path delay) that makes GPS work. What will suddenly happen is that everyone's GPSs in the area affected by spoofing are suddenly going to give exactly the same outputs. The same lat/long, the same Course over Ground, the same Speed Over Ground.

    So let's take the example of a ship doing 14 knots, heading 90 degrees true, and located at 123.03W by 49.05N. As a bad actor, I want to misguide them, and cause them to move to 123.04W and 49.03N, so I setup my spoofer and start broadcasting the signal. Here's the rub: as soon as I turn the spoofer on, everyone in the region is suddenly going to have their GPS readout "123.04W and 49.03N, doing 14kt SOG at 90 True COG. Furthermore, if I have two GPSs onboard with decently separated antennas (say on either side of the bridge), they're both going to be showing the exact same values, which should also trigger alarms in the navigation system.

    Now, you're absolutely right, none of this should eliminate proper watch keeping and situational awareness.

    --
    ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
  70. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by Strider- · · Score: 1

    GPS has an omni-directional antenna. You don't know the angle to the satellites. GPS coordinates are based off the difference in time from the various satellites the receiver gets signal from.

    Right, but the Ku-Band and X-Band communications antennas are highly directional, and calculate their lookangles to the satellite based on the known position of the satellite and the GPS position on the ground. Furthermore, many TDMA based modems depend on knowing the precise position of the transmitter so that they can synchronize the transmissions properly. if the ground position doesn't match the time-of-flight for the signal, collisions start happening and error lights go on.

    --
    ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
  71. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by Strider- · · Score: 1

    That's still no reason to ignore the colregs (collision regulations), which require adequate watch to be kept at all times while underway. This includes both visual watch keeping (aka the mk1 eyeball), and in the case of limited visibility (fog and/or smoke), a requirement to maintain an auditory watch (so listening for other ships), and produce sounds on your own, namely fog signals, gongs, and bells.

    --
    ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
  72. They still use sextants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What they *NEED* are apps that emulate a sextant.

    Circa 2000 I believe that on aircraft carriers an enlisted man used a WW2-era mechanical chronometer and a sextant to plot the ship's position at least once day. It was recorded along with GPS and at least one other electronic method (LORAN, inertial, ?).

    This was shown in a documentary. One of the filmmakers asked the crewman why they were using such ancient methods when they have all this fancy and redundant electronics. The crewman responded with something like: "We're a warship, we have to navigate when all the fancy electronics fail (satellites, land based navigation beacons, etc)".

  73. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    I guess you don't realize that Google Maps will continuously update your route based on the latest traffic conditions. No, it's not that great at predicting things like some NFL game ending, but it sounds like that was quite some time before you would have gotten near it; if you had gone that way, it would have likely seen the stopped traffic before you got there, and attempted to reroute you around it. You seem to be assuming that whatever route you pick at the beginning is the route you're stuck with, which simply isn't the case. Anyway, as for your NFL example, what exactly do you suggest as an alternative? If I'm visiting that city, there's no way I'm going to know about such a thing because I don't follow football (even if it was in my city I probably wouldn't know, and certainly wouldn't have any idea of what time the game ends). So you're not being helpful here: for me, the choice is to use GM and hope it routes me around the game traffic in time, or go back to paper maps and probably get stuck in traffic because that's the most direct route. In short, you're expecting too much.

  74. yeah sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Compasses, pencils and Xbox controllers???

  75. Re:Ridiculous -- why not enhance the use AIS & by sysrammer · · Score: 1

    "Long term traffic is knowable via VHS."
    Well, there's the problem. They need to upgrade to CD at least, if not BlueRay.

    --
    His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
  76. Communication Breakdown... by sysrammer · · Score: 1

    Sorry, what did you say?

    And now for something completely different...

    Communication Breakdown...
                    The reason the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines squabble among themselves is that they don't speak the same language. For example, take a simple phrase like, "Secure the building."
                      The Army will put guards around the place.
                      The Navy will turn out the lights and lock the doors.
                      The Marines will kill everybody inside and make it a command post.
                      The Air Force will take out a 5-year lease with an option to buy.

    --
    His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
  77. Battlestar Galactica by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This will be good for when they have to go full no computer Battlestar Galactica mode

  78. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    If you put the vowels in the top row, aeiou, and then the rest of the letters in alphabetical order, then you'd have a much more efficient code and one that was only marginally harder to remember.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  79. Gyros by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So why do submarines have laser ring gyros, but not surface ships ? One GPS or land fix every three months and you're good to go.

  80. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by bws111 · · Score: 1

    I am aware that Maps continuously updates. When I am talking about alternate routes, I am not talking about getting off the highway onto some surface street for a few miles. I am talking about avoiding the problem areas in the first place. In the case I mentioned, we were northbound on the NJ turnpike (I95) heading towards the NYS thruway (I87). Google's suggested route was stay on I-95 all the way to I-80, take I-80 to NJ17, and take that to I-87. Even without the Jets game in the mix, it doesn't take much thinking to realize that is an awful route. You are heading inbound to NYC, on a Sunday afternoon when everyone is returning from the weekend. It is an extremely congested area. Even when traffic is moving fast it is stressful driving, and traffic is likely to come to a screeching halt at any moment. Yeah, when that happens Maps will helpfully route you through Newark or something. Great.

    However, if you actually look at a map, you can see that they helpfully built I-287 which steers far clear of NYC, and you can avoid the whole mess. It is slightly longer. The time to make that decision is about 30 miles before you get into the congested area, and Maps doesn't help you with that at all.

    For another example, use Maps to get a route from Albany, NY to Orlando, FL. It gives two choices, fly, or I-95. I-95 takes you very close to NYC, Philadelphia, Baltimore, DC. Those are some of the worst areas for traffic in the country. However, if you can read a map you can see that there is an alternate route that is slightly longer that avoids ALL of those cities - I87,I287,I78,I81,I77,I26,I95. The time to make that decision is at the NY/NJ border at Mahwah, not when Maps notices it is now rush hour in DC and you are in it.

  81. Re:planing for a North Korea attack where GPS may by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    Good idea. Hulls that just sit in the water have some pretty severe speed limits due to wave resistance. If you can get that 8K-ton destroyer planing, it'll move a lot faster and save fuel.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  82. Re:And how many weekend hikers know how to use a m by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    Yeah, but the problem is that you're simply wrong about those being better routes: according to Google's statistical data, you will get there faster if you take their route. The only metric that matters is time, and Google is surely correct about that. So when you pick an alternate route that's "slightly longer", you're choosing a less optimal route. Of course, the reason for this is that you aren't looking to optimize based solely on time, you're willing to trade off a few minutes of time for a less stressful drive, and perhaps a lower risk of an unexpected slowdown (or even getting in a crash).

    Google Maps does usually present you with several routes before you start a trip. This usually happens when I start a longer trip, and the #2 or even #3 route might make more sense. Now, for your Albany-Orlando example, I just tried this in Google Maps, both in the desktop and Android versions, and it gives me 3 choices on the desktop, and 2 on the mobile. On mobile, the 2 choices are the I-95 route, and the exact route you describe. (On desktop, they add flying.) So it is giving you that other choice. However, it doesn't look so great to me: it adds an extra 1.5 hours! You might hit some traffic, but 1.5 hours' worth? Doubtful. Google Maps does also take traffic patterns into account, which is why you get different routes depending on when you plan the trip (that's why they have a selection so you can set the departure time to some other day and time than "now"). (Interestingly, I just tried this and it took away that other route, and replaced it with a Megabus option.)

    Anyway, the problem is that you're expecting too much. You might be willing to spend an extra hour on another route in exchange for less stress. Someone else might not. Or they might not want to put 100 extra miles on their car for that route. How exactly do you program a navigation application to not optimize solely on travel time anyway? The best they can do is present a few options.

    Anyway, my point to all this is that GPS with Google Maps is far, far better than what we had before, which was paper maps and stopping and asking strangers for directions. Your alternate route might be a better choice for you usually, but today the road might be closed because of a huge wreck. Without a system like Google Maps, you probably won't find out about that until it's too late (unless you listen to the radio constantly, with its awful music selection and annoying commercials, and happen to hear a warning in time, or you get yourself a CB radio and listen to truckers--yay). In the days before GPS, all this stuff was a serious chore; now it's much easier. You can still take the alternate route, and it'll guide you that way and warn you of traffic problems ahead.