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The Case Against Biometric IDs (nakedcapitalism.com)

"The White House and Equifax Agree: Social Security Numbers Should Go," reads a headline at Bloomberg. Securities lawyer Jerri-Lynn Scofield tears down one proposed alternative: a universal biometric identity system (possibly using fingerprints and an iris scan) with further numeric verification. Presto Vivace shared the article: Using a biometric system when the basic problem of securing and safeguarding data have yet to be solved will only worsen, not address, the hacking problem. What we're being asked to do is to turn over our biometric information, and then trust those to whom we do so to safeguard that data. Given the current status of database security, corporate and governmental accountability, etc.: How do you think that is going to play out...?

[M]aybe we should rethink the whole impulse to centralize such data collection, for starters. And, after such a thought experiment, then further focus on obvious measures to safeguard such information -- such as installing regular software patches that could have prevented the Equifax hack -- should be the priority. And, how about bringing back a concept in rather short supply in C-suites -- that of accountability? Perhaps measures to increase that might be a better idea than gee whiz misdirected techno-wizardry... The Equifax hack has revealed the sad and sorry state of cybersecurity. But inviting the biometric ID fairy to drop by and replace the existing Social Security number is not the solution.

The article calls biometric identification systems "another source of data to be mined by corporations, and surveilled by those who want to do so. And it would ultimately not foil identity theft." It suggests currently biometric ids are a distraction from the push to change the credit bureau business model -- for example, requiring consumers to opt-in to the collection of their personal data.

146 comments

  1. Or... by msauve · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Perhaps the proletariat shouldn't have to worry about it at all, and those who rely on identity (banks, mortgage companies, etc.) should be forced to assume all the liability and burden of proof when they get it wrong. And that includes being liable for libel if they incorrectly report against someone's creditworthiness.

    Just as copyright infringement isn't "theft," so too is there no real identity theft - the problem is on the other side, with those who accept numbers as a convenient but unreliable "proof" of identity. Their problem, not ours.

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    1. Re:Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great idea! Have fun paying the 'credit verification fee' for each one of them every time you apply for credit to cover the costs of when they get it wrong, or just the cost of borrowing in general going up.

    2. Re: Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Property is theft. Copyright and copyright infringement is just people stealing back from each other. Everything must exist and we are getting close to the point where we will know everything and everything will just be a repeat of everything else only a little bit shinier and a little bit newer, a little bit more colorful, a little bit safer and dangerous at the same time.

    3. Re:Or... by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 2

      And what the heck is wrong with paying a 'credit verification fee' rather than just freeloading on the back of all of society?

      Yeah. I know. LOTS of the heck is wrong. If you're a credit card company or a huckster who sells 'easy credit'.

    4. Re: Or... by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Property is theft.

      Next year, when you're a sophomore, your classes will be harder and you won't be able to hang out with the cute chicks at the lit table in the student union.

    5. Re:Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      What "credit verification fee"? Banks, mortgage companies, etc. elsewhere are already liable for such things elsewhere without a "credit verification fee" or increasing the cost of borrowing

      What you consider infeasible is actually the normal way of doing things in most of the world. It works well.

    6. Re: Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ??? Who cares?
      All the hot chicks are dumber than the cute chicks. They don't give a shit about lit unless you mean a bong or party being lit.
      And they crave the D like crazy.

    7. Re:Or... by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      So stop borrowing so much.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    8. Re:Or... by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's better than having costs thrust upon me even after I decide not to do business with an organization that plays too fast and loose with ID verification. This way, the idiots will necessarily become more expensive than the careful.

    9. Re: Or... by msauve · · Score: 1

      ProTip: ignore ACs, who don't have the courage of conviction, let alone the intelligence to understand what words actually mean.

      Also, "s/the cute chicks at the lit table in the student union/your mom in her basement/"

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    10. Re: Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some places don't take cash.

    11. Re: Or... by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      secured (prepaid) "credit" cards would simply be more popular. It wouldn't really be that big a deal to use something different, even for people that don't want to see the full price for what they buy and rely on having companies hide the costs behind incremental fees and surcharges.

    12. Re:Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great idea! Have fun paying the 'credit verification fee' for each one of them every time you apply for credit to cover the costs of when they get it wrong, or just the cost of borrowing in general going up.

      Actually it's an excellent idea. People should have skin in the game to access credit. Credit is a privilege, not a right, and since the people that benefit most from the transaction are those directly involved as borrowers and lenders it makes sense that they should shoulder all or most of the costs. If this means that some marginal borrowers and lenders are shut out of the credit markets then so be it.

    13. Re: Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bollocks. Except for online-only businesses I've never come across a merchant that doesn't take cash. Merchants will always take cash because, for one thing, it's not actually reportable. This is why governments want to abolish cash because it's virtually untraceable and they're missing out on tax revenue.

    14. Re:Or... by nasch · · Score: 1
    15. Re:Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      those who rely on identity (banks, mortgage companies, etc.) should be forced to assume all the liability and burden of proof when they get it wrong

      If you're an average person, good luck getting a loan with a reasonable interest rate in a system like that.

    16. Re: Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bollocks. Except for online-only businesses I've never come across a merchant that doesn't take cash. Merchants will always take cash because, for one thing, it's not actually reportable. This is why governments want to abolish cash because it's virtually untraceable and they're missing out on tax revenue.

      Airlines don't take cash when you buy anything in flight anymore...

    17. Re: Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Europe and Asia they do

    18. Re:Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The SSN or other taxpayer id number is basically useless now, thank Equifax. These data brokers should never have been storing it in the first place, but every business that deals with credit stores it, and even brainlessly uses it as an index or as an authentication mechanism (last four digits of your SSN?) Strangely in Canada you never get asked for your SIN (Social Insurance Number) and it's the same length as the US SSN.

      So how do we solve it? First, get rid of the SSN/SIN/TAXPAYERID/etc, Replace that with your Biometric Passport. No business is allowed to store your Passport information. Make use of tokenization (like Apple Pay) for the actual reading of the passport, so that the business requesting verification of it, can only verify it with permission from the home country's government and you physically possessing it. Reject use of the passport if a biometric hasn't been authenticated once in a while (eg doing in-person banking, crossing the border.)

      Now I know what you're thinking, "I don't want the government to know I'm buying dildos on amazon.com by verifying my passport" but that's not what is going on here, the government doesn't know what you're buying, only that you conducted a "high value" transaction between yourself and banking entity. The government's role here is providing the biometric authentication, and the business is not permitted to store it.

      What biometrics should be stored? DNA (blood sample) is probably too much, but the government already has this info. YES THEY DO. If you were born in the US they totally do. But giving a blood sample to withdraw money is too risky since an ATM can't be sterilized, and a would-be thief need only steal your blood too. There needs to be 2FA, something you have and something you know to authenticate. The easy solution for "something you know" is to simply store a photo, with 10 answers. (What is the significance of this photo? [my wife, my child, my pet, my car, my house, my address, my shoes, my clothes, myself, my computer] and have to select the 3-5 answers that are correct. Follow that with a IRIS scan, not a Retina scan. There are about 20 DNA genes that deal with the iris color and shape alone. It would always be possible to match up a DNA sample with an Iris scan.

      So, depending on what you're doing:
      Buying a candy bar : apple pay
      Getting a student loan: Passport credit + bank card
      Buying a car: Passport credit + bank card
      Buying a house : Passport credit + bank card
      Paying taxes: Bank card
      Paying for car: Bank card
      Paying for house: Bank card
      Paying for your student loans: Bank card
      Setting up utilities, cell phones, water, gas, electricity, phone for the first time: Passport credit + bank card.

      Once you have a working relationship with a bank, the bank can be authorized to work with other businesses without re-authenticating. New businesses always require authenticating before accepting the first payment.

      But you're probably asking, "This is too complicated", damn right it is. In short, biometric authentication is done to setup new high valuie relationships and never used during regular business, and the businesses do not store this information for any reason, they just report to the government that you have a relationship. If the bank suspects you're laundering money and has to follow anti-laundering rules, then it may have to report amounts over $10,000 but suffice it to say, they do that anyway.

    19. Re: Or... by Jesus+H+Rolle · · Score: 1

      That's boring. How about an APP?!

    20. Re: Or... by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      These days most of the basement dwellers I know gravitate more to the "taxes are theft" line.

    21. Re:Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People were moaning about how long it took for the chip card readers to process a transaction compared to the mag swipe readers, literally going from a 1-2 second transaction time to around a 5-10 second time. Now you want to introduce random questions and picture verification? Grandma isn't going to put up with that.

      I like the approach my Apple Watch takes, I have a (long) passcode to unlock the watch but only need to enter it when I put the watch on (or the occasional times the HR sensor gets far enough off my wrist to lock it). This takes care of the "what I know" part. Then if I want to use Apple pay I just pick the card I want to use and because it's physically connected to me, that's the "what I have" part, which locks up if I remove it from my person.

    22. Re: Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed they do. Have bought the occational beer with cash. But I usually bring my own food & entertainment, as airline prices are horrible. Their only competition is what I bring.

    23. Re:Or... by ctilsie242 · · Score: 1

      I like the idea of a smart card that uses some type of PIN + biometrics, where the biometrics are used to associate a username, or as part of MFA, and a PIN used for unlocking the card. The card would then be a certificate store. Swipe the card at the bar, the pub knows you are over 21, so their butt is covered legally. They don't need your name or anything else. A job requires a degree? They get a cert from the university that is also signed by an accrediting agency showing that there was a B. S. awarded. A job requiring no criminal record? A cert that has a short expiration time that shows the person is not a felon, and has no pending charges.

      Credit scores can be done similar. Financial institutions can sign that someone is in good standing, and either let the certs expire or be revoked.

      This system is also robust to hacking. Yes, individual root CAs can get hacked and endpoints can get hacked, but there is no one database sitting there which is a big juicy target.

    24. Re:Or... by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      People should have skin in the game to access credit.

      I thought the "skin in the game" that people have is the interest on the debt they're assuming.

    25. Re:Or... by JohnFen · · Score: 2

      Replace that with your Biometric Passport.

      Most Americans don't have a passport, and many can't get one.

    26. Re: Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in Seattle. Here it's fairly common (although certainly not universal) for very small businesses (e.g. food trucks or similarly sized hole-in-the-wall restaurants) to not accept cash. I gather this city is fairly high on people who don't carry cash, though.

    27. Re:Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed

    28. Re:Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the vast majority of Americans will never have a use for a passport.

    29. Re: Or... by Killall+-9+Bash · · Score: 1

      Nope. Inflation is theft.

      --
      "Prediction: within 10 years, Windows will be a Linux distribution." Me, 7-6-2016
    30. Re:Or... by KingBenny · · Score: 1

      the proletariat , woaw ... personally, call me a lamer of whatever but i don't see the difference between a database full of social security number strings or the key matching someone's biometric ... you can't alter data in the blockchain (or what was that? unless you got 51% or more ... satoshi was a democrat hm ?) but if you got the key to a wallet you can empty it right so call me a lamer or whatever, point out the fact that i have no degrees to stand on, i don't owe a security firm and i didnt do time for haxxing the cia or the quadragon but if it's stored as data its just more of the same, right? whoever got access has the goodies as for that modding thing ... it seems like theres a layer of foam on every slashdot post, i'm starting to think a combination of "the hackers-on-meth" and reddit-extremists ... if you just push through it its good and how will people impersonate you if you never post as anyone but yourself, right ? sorry for the second part dude ... i already told you i stole your sig as quote #40 for my site, right ? andré gide and all that

      --
      Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
  2. The dangerous biometrics by markdavis · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Fingerprints and DNA should not be used for biometrics. Period.

    Using fingerprints or DNA and allowing a third-party to have access to that data is unacceptable. Not only because the government and big business should have no need to track what people are doing but because they should not have fingerprint registration data (which will be horribly abused) .

    Stand up for your rights, people... and the rights of your children. Once you give this data to the government or big business, it will NEVER be erased or restricted, regardless of claims, policies, or laws- it will go into huge databases and shared between agencies and used however they want for as long as they want. Even worse, with every crime investigation, you will be searched without probable cause. It is a genie that can't be put back into the bottle.

    Fingerprints are something you leave all over the place all the time. They are easy to lift, copy, and forge. Easy to fake, easy to use to frame people. Time after time they have been shown to be poor for security and yet very effective at tracking people.

    DNA is even worse. Like fingerprints, you leave it all over the place all the time. Samples can be lifted and planted and analyzed. DNA is more than a means to ID, it contains very sensitive information about you.

    Iris scan is better than DNS or fingerprints- there is no leaving your iris image all over, and it doesn't say that much about you. But your eyes (iris,
    not retinal) could be scanned without your permission by any high resolution camera pointed at your face, even your own.

    There is only one safer and practical biometric I know of- that is deep vein palm scan. That registration data cannot be readily abused. It can't be latently collected like DNA, fingerprints, and face recognition can. You have to know you are registering/enrolling when it happens. You don't leave evidence of it all over the place. When you go to use it, you know you are using it every time. And on top of all that, it is accurate, fast, reliable, unchanging, live-sensing, and cheap. If you must participate in a biometric, this is the one you should insist on using.

    Example: http://www.m2sys.com/palm-vein...
    More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    We also need to realize that IT IS NOT EVERYONE'S BUSINESS WHAT WE ALL DO. The first step in securing freedom is privacy. When you are tracked, you are losing your freedom, whether you realize it or not. You should not have to positively ID yourself for ALL transactions. A good example is age verification. There is an important place for anonymity and semi-anonymity in a free society.

    1. Re:The dangerous biometrics by Junta · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yep nothing like a credential I leave behind on any surface I touch.

      It's funny, there's a room at work that (in part) is secured by a fingerprint reader. it's about 10 feet from a door that you can see the fingerprints clearly left behind as people push the doors open on the way to the fingerprint reader.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    2. Re:The dangerous biometrics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Deep vein palm scan? What kind of expensive piece of equipment is that going to take every time I want to do a credit check on a potential customer? Jesus H. Christ. It needs to be simpler than that.

    3. Re:The dangerous biometrics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There is only one safer and practical biometric I know of- that is deep vein palm scan. That registration data cannot be readily abused. It can't be latently collected like DNA, fingerprints, and face recognition can. You have to know you are registering/enrolling when it happens. You don't leave evidence of it all over the place. When you go to use it, you know you are using it every time. And on top of all that, it is accurate, fast, reliable, unchanging, live-sensing, and cheap. If you must participate in a biometric, this is the one you should insist on using.

      Vein matching has been used forensically, most notably to tie Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to the murder of Daniel Pearl.

      Forensic identification

      According to a 31,000-word investigative report published in January 2011 by Georgetown University faculty and students,[11][12][13][14][15] U.S. federal investigators used photos from the video recording of the beheading of American journalist Daniel Pearl to match the veins on the visible areas of the perpetrator to that of captured al-Qaeda operative Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, notably a "bulging vein" running across his hand.[4] The FBI and the CIA used the matching technique on Mohammed in 2004 and again in 2007.[3] Officials were concerned that his confession, which had been obtained through torture (namely waterboarding), would not hold up in court and used vein matching evidence to bolster their case.[2]

      Granted, this was using a bulging surface vein rather than a deep vein, but it was done by using images taken from a video. The point is that biometric data leaks and once out can not be retrieved or changed. It makes for a terrible password for that very reason.

      Deep palm vein matching may not presently have a known method for creating dummy fakes, but that does not mean it never will. Best to rule out biometrics for all authentication tasks and leave it solely for use in identification without authentication.

    4. Re:The dangerous biometrics by markdavis · · Score: 1

      >"Deep palm vein matching may not presently have a known method for creating dummy fakes, but that does not mean it never will. Best to rule out biometrics for all authentication tasks and leave it solely for use in identification without authentication."

      What you are saying is very true. That is why I qualified it with "I know of." Probably anything can be defeated, but deep vein currently stands as one of the best, most practical biometric. You can get something very secure, like a retinal scan, but it is not very practical in use (have to look into something, slow, expensive optics and processing, all kinds of things can go wrong- infections, cataracts, clots, hazy fluid, blinding if done wrong, yuck). As for as authentication, nothing beats adding what you know to the biometric equation (PIN/password/etc).

      You already said it, but in your example, those were surface veins, not deep veins. Deep veins can't be seen from any distance with visible light nor from a distance with any known technology. Further, the palm is a more protected area that is rarely visible casually for more than a brief instant (think about where your hands are most of the time- holding something, in your pockets, on a keyboard, face-down in most cases when not holding something and obscured otherwise).

    5. Re:The dangerous biometrics by markdavis · · Score: 2

      >"Deep vein palm scan? What kind of expensive piece of equipment is that going to take every time I want to do a credit check on a potential customer? Jesus H. Christ. It needs to be simpler than that."

      I wasn't referring to using this for everyday transactions, precisely because we shouldn't have to use biometrics for such trivial things (it is dangerous). Biometrics should be reserved only for IMPORTANT ID, like interactions with the police, court, deeds, wills, sensitive medical care, etc.

      As for expense- a deep vein scanner is no more expensive than a fingerprint scanner, and it is just as fast. It is also almost as easy to use.

    6. Re:The dangerous biometrics by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Deep vein palm scan? What kind of expensive piece of equipment is that going to take

      A box with an IR light and two $5 CMOS cameras.

    7. Re:The dangerous biometrics by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      Even worse, with every crime investigation, you will be searched without probable cause. It is a genie that can't be put back into the bottle.

      Oh, for heaven's sake, put your tinfoil hat back on and get back on your meds! I was first fingerprinted when I joined the navy back in '69, and I've been fingerprinted since then by at least one other (county, not federal) agency since then. And, in the 48 years since that fingerprinting, I've never been searched by any investigative agency, with or without probable cause, nor been a Person of Interest in an investigation. I also have a number of friends who's fingerprints are in on record with one or more branch of the US Military, and none of them have ever been bothered this way.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    8. Re:The dangerous biometrics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You already said it, but in your example, those were surface veins, not deep veins. Deep veins can't be seen from any distance with visible light nor from a distance with any known technology. Further, the palm is a more protected area that is rarely visible casually for more than a brief instant (think about where your hands are most of the time- holding something, in your pockets, on a keyboard, face-down in most cases when not holding something and obscured otherwise).

      If deep palm vein scanning becomes a norm, then so will deep palm vein scanners. Now it doesn't matter how often I put on gloves and then put my gloved hands into my coat, if I'm taking then out and allowing them to be scanned every time I get on the subway, buy a slushee, or purchase movie tickets. The devices themselves become the weak link, and the secret hash that they produce from each scan becomes a known quantity.

      Biometrics, as a class, can not successfully be used to solve authentication problems because once lost, they can not be changed. They are excellent for identification problems: UUID's, primary keys, usernames. But they make terrible passwords and must not be used for authentication.

    9. Re:The dangerous biometrics by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      Let's not worry about the people, let's concern ourselves with the computers. The computer said so, should never ever be enough to identify some one. Just like that person being real and actual, not just virtual so the record of them actual, a real hard copy. To rely on biometric data, relies totally on the record of biometric data being associated with you. Alter that database link, associate someone else's biometric data with your legal identity and they become you.

      This limits prime record data to hard copy, extremely difficult to replace, many hard copies can be created and kept. Computerised biometric identification as the only identification is extremely dangerous. You could be legally killed ie your legal data associated with a deceased body and you legally become dead and now you have to fight the central database that all their biometric records of you are wrong (well, only one record, one signal bit of identity, that link from your biometric data to your legal identity data). Now for the cheeky minded, allow them to implement the system and then, heh, heh, erase all data, watch the chaos then with no manual system backing it all up. All being erases a rare probability, some records being accidentally being erased or altered a near certainty.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    10. Re:The dangerous biometrics by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Biometrics, as a class, can not successfully be used to solve authentication problems because once lost, they can not be changed. They are excellent for identification problems: UUID's, primary keys, usernames. But they make terrible passwords and must not be used for authentication.

      Exactly. It is provably impossible to guarantee a trusted endpoint when under someone else's control, and that's where any sort of identifier breaks down for authentication purposes, no matter how seemingly unique.

      Consider the example of the sorts of things Equifax is intended to protect—obtaining credit. Half the time, people apply for credit cards online using their own computers, and people use their computers for online banking, etc. To facilitate this, the credit agencies convince all of the computer and cell phone manufacturers to include built-in iris scanners.

      Jump forward ten years. Every computer has an iris scanner built in. Everyone uses their iris scans for everything, from buying things online to getting money from an ATM. So suppose some malicious person wants to get a credit card in my name. Let's look at how this scheme can be compromised, one step at a time.

      • Compromise the credential: The attacker first needs to get my iris scan data. To do this, they install a skimmer that attaches to the image sensor in my bank/credit union's ATM. It then sends that scan data to the attacker.
      • Use the credential: The attacker modifies an iris scanner on a personal computer to send arbitrary iris scan data instead of what was actually scanned.

      And now, somebody has a credit card in my name. And according to the credit card company, it was me, because after all, who else could have applied for a credit card using my iris scan?

      Iris scans might be acceptable for identification purposes under very controlled circumstances (e.g. at the teller window inside a bank). But for authentication purposes, it has exactly the same problem as a social security number. As you said, it is really useful only as an identifier, not as a form of authentication.

      No surprise, then, that the same bozos who brought us a fundamentally broken system of trust based on secret numbers would try to do exactly the same thing, just with a different secret number generated from a fingerprint or iris scan. When all you have in your mental toolbox is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

      To solve this problem, we need to start by finding people with a bigger mental toolbox. If Equifax and friends were capable of solving this problem, they would have done it years ago.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    11. Re:The dangerous biometrics by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Stand up for your rights, people

      I would expect neckbeards around here to have learned this lesson from watching the movie Porky's growing up! Never consent to biometric examination.

    12. Re:The dangerous biometrics by markdavis · · Score: 1

      >"I''ve never been searched by any investigative agency, with or without probable cause, nor been a Person of Interest in an investigation"

      I can almost guarantee that you have. Just because nothing has come from those searches [that you know of] doesn't mean you haven't been searched and there isn't a risk. If your latent print just happens to be on or around something of interest, it will be run and it will connect to you; and there is a small chance it will connect to you even if it isn't you.

    13. Re:The dangerous biometrics by markdavis · · Score: 2

      >"I can almost guarantee that you have" [had searches done on a databases that contain your prints]

      Reply to self- just to clarify (since after I read my reply again, it might not be evident), every time ANY collected print is searched, it is compared to every print to which they have access. If your print is in one of those databases, you are being searched. And since the databases are shared, it is likely that at least high-level-agency searches will search through just about every database out there.

      The act of searching is already invasive, but in addition, the more prints and searches, the higher the probability of false positives. This is compounded with the number of searches, which goes up every year.

      Even with a true positive, it can place you in a position of having to prove your innocence because:

      1) A print doesn't mean you were there or touched anything if it was fake or a plant/frame.

      2) Even if you were there, it doesn't mean you were there when something of interest happened because there is no time reference.

      3) And either way, a print doesn't mean you actually did anything.

    14. Re:The dangerous biometrics by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      If your print is in one of those databases, you are being searched.

      I don't know what you mean by the word "searched," but it's not one I've encountered, and at 68, I've probably run across every meaning for "searched" that there is. Just running a database search looking for a match to a fingerprint is not searching any of the people who's prints are in that search, which is one of the reasons you don't need a warrant do search your own databases. I have never had my home, person, car or workspace searched by any law enforcement agency, which fits the meaning almost everybody has for that word. And no, if my print were found at a crime scene, I wouldn't have to prove my innocence; it would be up to them to prove my guilt, at least in the USofA.

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    15. Re: The dangerous biometrics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those background check prints shouldn't be in a criminal database, but I am sure they are searched anyway. Just to eliminate you as a suspect. I.e. prove a negative. So you can see how foolhardy this is.

      https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/09/little-fanfare-fbi-ramps-biometrics-programs-yet-again-part-1

    16. Re:The dangerous biometrics by nasch · · Score: 1

      It seems to me the problem is single factor authentication. If I have to provide my iris (or whatever) scan and a password, then it becomes much more difficult to impersonate me. Assuming of course the data is stored properly and I don't do anything stupid.

    17. Re:The dangerous biometrics by F.Ultra · · Score: 1

      So now we have to invent some form of gloves that external parties cannot take off you when you are sleeping (or being sedated).

    18. Re:The dangerous biometrics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point is that biometric data leaks and once out can not be retrieved or changed. It makes for a terrible password for that very reason.

      Instead we can use gender for password. Change it all you want, and you can even make it unique!

    19. Re:The dangerous biometrics by grumling · · Score: 1

      That's the problem, there's no difference between everyday transactions and big deal transactions. We see this all the time in software exploits, where something like a low level serial port driver has an unmatched bug that can be used by clever hackers to take over a system. Those "would you like to save 10%" store credit cards are checked using the same systems that mortgages and cars loans use.

      Until tokenized systems are more widespread, and people figure out that having a wallet full of plastic shouldn't be the goal, we're going to be dealing with this.

      --
      "Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
    20. Re: The dangerous biometrics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like most things automated, nowhere near as expensive as an actual clerk.

    21. Re:The dangerous biometrics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The government has lost control of my personal information more than once. The army lost it once via a series of compromised visitor control logs with SSN attached. My personal information was lost again in the Office of Personnel Managment breach. The more information they have, the more information our adversaries (both personal and governmental) have. If the army has used biometrics in their visitor control logs, you can bet that that information would be in the hands of whoever breached the visitor control logs.

    22. Re:The dangerous biometrics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I once interviewed at a company which the CTO bragged about their "100% secure" biometric authentication, be it the man traps to the server rooms, their retina scanners, and such. However, the door that connected the server room to the outside was secured with a mechanical Kwikset five pin lock. The backup mechanical locks? Kwikset five pin locks. The CTO turned pretty angry when I pointed out the YouTube vids and how some five year old with a bump key and a hammer could get in to his "100 percent secure" setup in a matter of seconds.

    23. Re:The dangerous biometrics by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      And once that scan data is lost and someone finds a way to duplicate it with a thin plastic coat over the palm of their hand you are fucked because you can't change your scan. Anything that relies on bio-metrics is a massive failure as even if it's not fakable now it will be after the implement it and you can't change your fucking bio-metrics.

      The problem has always been using a fixed number for identity. A number I might add that was never intended for such and that congress actually banned it being used a few years ago. Congress should pass a law making any company that uses your social security number for anything other than social security liable for any damages and provide statutory damages of $5K per use.

      If we need an ID number is should be fucking PKI based with a revocation list and everything that goes with it. We could even issue etokens for people to use for identification. Anything else is doomed to failure because it will suffer the same problems the stupid SSN suffer.

    24. Re:The dangerous biometrics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes.

      Blockchain. That's the answer. We won't even need "credit reporting agencies."

    25. Re:The dangerous biometrics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who has some experience in this I can tell you that it is possible to plant fingerprints. The technology for doing so is decades old.
      Technically you are right you do not have to prove your innocence, however if an investigator and district attorney decide you are guilty and have enough circumstantial evidence, such as fingerprints, to prosecute you it will definitely be a matter of you having to prove you innocence. At the very least you'll likely have to go into debt to post bond (a portion of which you won't get back[bail bondsman fee]) and cost of a lawyer (none of which you will get back, even if you're ultimately found innocent.)

    26. Re:The dangerous biometrics by Junta · · Score: 1

      Also amused that in all of our cases, there's a lock and a very sturdy door. And nothing but sheetrock right next to the door separating a determined individual from getting in, without so much as tripping an alarm.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    27. Re:The dangerous biometrics by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      Strictly speaking, of course, I don't have to prove my innocence, I just have to create a reasonable doubt in the jury's mind. That's how the criminal justice system works in the USA. How it works where you live, I've no idea.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    28. Re:The dangerous biometrics by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      duplicate it with a thin plastic coat over the palm of their hand

      Wrong. The reason my description said TWO cameras, is that it takes stereoscopic 3D images. It also takes multiple images a few milliseconds apart, to detect the pulse in the arteries/veins.

    29. Re:The dangerous biometrics by chihowa · · Score: 1

      I used to work at a place like that, too. The janitors would use the key on their huge keyring to bypass all of the security and grab the garbage cans.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    30. Re:The dangerous biometrics by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      And then there's the problem that you have to give out your password everywhere you go, while keeping it secret. Might as well use the Social Security number.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    31. Re:The dangerous biometrics by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Depends where in the US and who you are and what you look like. People have been convicted on scanty evidence before.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    32. Re:The dangerous biometrics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They already 'proved' your guilt with the fingerprint...
      This is the Us remember, your money and assets are probably guilty too, best take them away to make it even harder for you to claim you're innocent.

  3. Immutable Data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Any system that relies on immutable data for day-to-day identification is doomed from the start.

    That's the problem with the Equifax breach-- all the data I use to prove who I am-- SSN, driver's license, data of birth-- it's all been leaked. Biometrics doesn't change this-- except now my iris pattern, my thumbprint, my DNA-- they all get leaked-- but they still can't be changed once leaked.

    We need something resembling a distributed PKI setup so that I can carry an "id card" with a private key I can sign transactions with-- but I need to be able to regenerate that key relatively simply at any local government office (and revoke any old keys still floating around). Note this shouldn't be my "show badge to enter" type ID-- this should be used for taxes, voting, credit checks-- things that you might today use an SSN for.

    But this idea that we can have one identification that never changes, and is immune to data breaches, is just not feasible.

    This shouldn't be hard to do.

    1. Re:Immutable Data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This.
      The solution exists, and it's not stupid shit like biometrics.

    2. Re:Immutable Data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this should be used for taxes, voting, credit checks-- things that you might today use an SSN for.

      One issue is the way IDs (or in the case of the US, SSNs) are used in the identification process. It is clear that asking a customer to fulfill a web form and identifying with only an "ID code" such as SSN or an ID card number is insufficient. Banks provide electronic ID services already with their internet banking services, along with the PKI infrastructures of some governments. The issue is cost which might be a too heavy burden for many without financial support, even in countries such as the US.

      Biometrics is a way to reduce the cost of identification for the citizens, with the possible trade-offs particular systems might have. Any ID card or pass already includes biometric information, namely the picture (along with a chip these days), of course. This changes as the documents are renewed at regular intervals. Using biometrics doesn't remove the need for electronic IDs for transactions, or a method used to identify a person even when the power is out.

    3. Re:Immutable Data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hard to do I'm sure it is. But I agree. The problem is they can't get identification correct.
      I am me. But the internet says someone else is me. My credit history is irrelevant.
      They need to be able to say I am myself. Solve that problem, and the rest of the doesn't matter.

    4. Re:Immutable Data by burtosis · · Score: 1

      Fixing your credit in the future is easy! Simply rip out both eyes and replace them, use a crispr variant to change enough genetic markers, then cut off all the skin on your fingers and buy new skin. That should hold you for at least a few weeks till they the data gets stolen again.

    5. Re:Immutable Data by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      that solution exists, but it has it's problems.

      really credit systems in general are the problem. they don't care if they get the identity wrong because the credit goes against the real person and not the fraudster.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    6. Re:Immutable Data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for this comment. The password/key can't be known, otherwise it can be extracted. And if it is stolen, it needs to be able to be changed. Biometrics as a password (read: permission) is a joke. But, biometrics (and many levels at that) is a good way to identify a person. A person's identity needs to be confirmed, and that persons permission needs to be obtained for (certain) transactions to be completed.

    7. Re:Immutable Data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... you might today use an SSN for.

      The problem being that other businesses want to identify you too: That's easy in the USA, where the government issues a public, national identifier because businesses have realized they can inspect your past with that one number. As long as businesses can access that one number, there's no benefit changing it.

      Other countries have started issuing a national SS number, a national healthcare number, a national student number, etc. A business has little reason to collect your multiple identities, unless it is deliberately profiling you. It is in the government's interest to ensure that your identity numbers are not exposed to every business (otherwise security equals a single, public number), thus some privacy legislation is needed. Then the issue is the business enforcing the protection and disposal of its records. The reality of some corporate database being cracked every other week, reveals that level of responsibility is not available.

    8. Re:Immutable Data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ummm... blockchain = immutable. Not doomed. The future.

      God, you guys are such a bunch of cluelsss Luddites sometimes!

    9. Re:Immutable Data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's juts that idiots misunderstand the problem.

      They think because "something you are" is the hardest of the classic three identification factors to change it's the hardest to attack. That isn't true because the attacker is not limited to 'becoming you' when they 'impersonate you'.

      Ability to change the authentication token is important for situations like this.

    10. Re:Immutable Data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is incorrect. In the U.S. at least the victim of identity theft is never forced to pay back money they did not borrow. The debtor always eats it. As a matter of fact typically the bank eats it. The club the credit card companies have tried to use to get stores to upgrade to chip readers is that if a business allows payment with a swipe instead of a chip and the card is fraudulent the store eats the cost. If its a chipped card the credit card eats it. The law says the consumer victim is limited to $50 liability. Most credit cards will not ever make you pay that.
      Losses to identity theft are overhead to the credit card companies. They care enough to try to slow down theft at retail, but overall they don't care enough to use two factor chips (chip and pin).
      The reason they don't do more is not because the victim has to pay the debt off, but because they're afraid that too much friction at the point of retail will reduce the amount of debt consumers are accumulating. They are willing to absorb a certain amount of loss because they can write it off.
      So if the victim doesn't have to pay why should we as consumer care? Because when your identify is stolen it f**ks up your credit. You can't get new credit approved, or you end up paying more for it. It's a hassle because all kinds of places give you a hard time because of your "bad" credit. For example in most state a lease is considered a kind of loan. You get an apartment for a year and the owner agrees to let you pay in 12 equal payments. If you have bad credit they won't rent to you.
      It can take thousands of dollars and years to clean up your credit and meanwhile credit costs more and some things like buying a house or car or renting an apartment become difficult or even impossible.
      Equifax and the other credit companies don't care because you are not their customer and their customers the business that use their information don't care because credit is a seller's market. They have more people clamoring form credit than they want to lend to anyway.

    11. Re:Immutable Data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wouldn't it be easier to juts keep your official eye and finger in a refrigerated box and take them out when you need to sign something official?

      This would have the aded advantage of making it impossible to reconsytruct the official eye and finger from observation if you in daily life.
      Don't worry bout how we've juts re-invented the signant ring/imperial seal with a much grosser medium. I'm sure no one will notice until it's too late.

  4. Social Security numbers are already gone by turkeydance · · Score: 1

    somewhere, out there, beneath the pale moonlight. or...And then you'll have to eat your lunch all by yourself 'Cause I'm already gone

  5. Accountability is dead by MangoCats · · Score: 2

    Who in their right mind would stand up and be accountable for operations that exceed their personal fortune by factors of 1000s? What possible form of compensation could be adequate for such liability?

    Yes, corporate operations transparency and accountability are great measures to improve the current situation. Unfortunately, we're more likely to get gun control and single-payer health care passed first.

    1. Re: Accountability is dead by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      Who would accept the accountability? Someone who feels they are competent enough not to fuck up the entirety of what they are held liable for. Of course, at some organizations the hiring/promotion process is... Not great. You get people who take high-level salaries with little understanding of the work they are supposed to oversee. Or worse yet, you get people who *think* they are competent (Dunnig-Kreuger effect). The corporate culture at many places has a way of weeding out people who *do* have a firm understanding of their skills and *don't* bullshit... Especially at the high levels.

      Another thing to consider is that the financial sector is full of "too-big-to-fail" organizations. There are a couple ways to deal with this problem, but the approach we have been trying recently (deregulate and hope for the best) has led to nothing but high-profile, recession-inducing fuckups. As for free access to guns and inefficient healthcare, the record shows our national politicians hold those just as sacredly as they hold the financial industry. If anything, the large singular fuckup of Equifax has a better chance of prodding them into action than the slowmo, perpetual fuckup of not having a first world healthcare system.

  6. Re: MODERATORS ARE CENSORING POSTS... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is not something to troll about, asshole.

  7. Amy national ID would be exploited by david.emery · · Score: 1

    By its nature, any national ID system would be the basis for tracking, if that ID is used for commercial as well as governmental purposes. So the question should not be "Would biometrics enable more illicit tracking?" but rather "Would biometrics be less susceptible to misuse than the current SSN?"

    1. Re: Amy national ID would be exploited by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By its nature, any national ID system would be the basis for tracking, if that ID is used for commercial as well as governmental purposes. So the question should not be "Would biometrics enable more illicit tracking?" but rather "Would biometrics be less susceptible to misuse than the current SSN?"

      Actually, I would have thought the obvious question is why is a national ID being used for commercial purposes? In every other English speaking country its use is strictly forbidden by law. But in the US...

  8. Revalation 13 by labnet · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    “He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Revelation 13:16-17

    Christians have been on the watch out for a one world government that controls all trade. It may not happen in my lifetime, but I can certainly see the chess pieces moving into place such as:

    - Terrorism is the big bogey man, so we need to identify people for our 'safety'.
    - A world wide interconnected financial transaction system.
    - Personal identification becoming important because criminals steal your identity.

    This mark could be some future bio chip, with built in cypto, that only works when it is implanted in you and it acts your world wide identifier. This mark will become so crucial for doing anything, that people will be compelled to use it, all under the guise of building a safer global society.

    --
    46137
    1. Re:Revalation 13 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They can already track you without anything added. Passport, drivers license, SSN, home address, employer, credit card use, the list goes on.

      Now most people carry devices that record their every movement. Why in the world would they invest in anything else. They have access to all the rest.

      All this one world government crap is nonsense - its been bullshit for decades. I don't see countries agreeing on much of anything, except when the US bludgeons them to track its own citizens or suspected terrorists.

    2. Re:Revalation 13 by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Informative

      Christians have been on the watch out for a one world government that controls all trade.

      Most Christians generally recognize that Revelation was about Emperor Nero, some two thousand years ago. How do we know this? Hebrew letters also have a numerical value, and the Hebrew letters for Nero's name sum to 666. The rest of the things in Revelation are also historical, mapping onto actual events not long after the time of Christ. There's no biblical support for the view that anything in Revelation is about the future (anymore). It's all ancient history (now).

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    3. Re: Revalation 13 by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      Remember that currency was a new thing for most people the Romans introduced it to. What was on the coins? The name and the mark of the beast.

    4. Re:Revalation 13 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no biblical support for the view that anything in Revelation is about the future (anymore). It's all ancient history (now).

      You have not seen anything until the bowls in Rev 16 get poured out. Then, there will be no question that things in Revelation are in operation. We have not even come close to any one of those, yet. I’m pretty sure we haven’t seen the “great distress” worse than any other before or after yet. If we have and it is all in the past then the Bible was quite overly dramatic! ;-) Matt 24:21

    5. Re: Revalation 13 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember that currency was a new thing for most people the Romans introduced it to. What was on the coins? The name and the mark of the beast.

      Here (link below) is the picture you refer to and there is no number on it so please show us the coin with the 666 mark of the beast on it. The inscription shows: NERO CAESAR AVG IMP. and on the back shows PONTIF MAX TR P III all of which is text only with no references to numbers at all. Just a coin with Nero on it. No mark of the beast anything. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/atheology/2016/09/first-century-coin-of-nero-found-in-jerusalem-the-mark-of-the-beast/

    6. Re:Revalation 13 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      /. is really not the place for theological discussions, but since you brought it up, most Christian biblical scholars realize that like ogres, Scripture is like onions. That is each passage has multiple layers of meaning. Part of it is the multiple meaning engendered for the person who wrote it, the deity who inspired it and the wider Church through the ages. So while the original author was trying to make a point about the Emperor Nero in a way that wouldn't get him sent to the circus even faster, that doesn't preclude a wider prophetic meaning.
      All theological discussion aside people at the period were already well aware of the possibility of a tyrannical government using control of the individual's ability to participate in the economy as a club. As a matter of fact through history governments have used such control over economic participation to pick winners and losers. For example in post reformation England Catholics were prevented from holding public office or owning property or entering certain professions. For many years illegitimate children were prevented from inheriting, and in certain churches the right to minister. And of course throughout history the members of certain ethnic groups in certain locations were prevented from entering professions such as the law or medicine.
      At some level laws supporting fiat money issued by states which require debtors to accept it in lieu of items of actual value is a government control of economic activity.

    7. Re:Revalation 13 by Johnny5th · · Score: 1

      What christians have you been talking to? Aside from a few people that I know, no one in my social circle has ever heard of that. Also fun fact: ~666 years between Babylon (the first beast) and Nero.

    8. Re: Revalation 13 by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      The numerical value of Nero Caesar IS 666. And Nero was the beast (metaphorically, in much the same way that today lots of folks say that Donald Trump is Hitler).

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    9. Re:Revalation 13 by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      So while the original author was trying to make a point about the Emperor Nero in a way that wouldn't get him sent to the circus even faster, that doesn't preclude a wider prophetic meaning.

      Certainly true. And nothing about my statement is intended to imply that there won't be a second coming of Christ; most Christians do believe that there will be; that just isn't what Revelation, specifically, is about (except, as you say, perhaps as a secondary meaning). To that end, we shouldn't assume that the specific events listed in Revelation are harbingers of the end of the world, nor that they must necessarily happen before the end of the world, because A. the text in question was primarily intended as political rhetoric against Nero two thousand years ago, and B. there are so many more likely ways for the world to end (e.g. us nuking ourselves into oblivion). :-)

      All theological discussion aside people at the period were already well aware of the possibility of a tyrannical government using control of the individual's ability to participate in the economy as a club. As a matter of fact through history governments have used such control over economic participation to pick winners and losers. For example in post reformation England Catholics were prevented from holding public office or owning property or entering certain professions. For many years illegitimate children were prevented from inheriting, and in certain churches the right to minister. And of course throughout history the members of certain ethnic groups in certain locations were prevented from entering professions such as the law or medicine.

      This is certainly true. And this is why it is so important to ensure that any government that gains that much power is a government of the people, with enough limitations on its power to prevent the sorts of rampant abuse that can turn it into a force for evil.

      Right now, with a President who honestly asked why we don't use nuclear weapons, we're testing those safeguards in our government to see if it can be a stabilizing force for good rather than falling victim to those who would use it to harm others. If it fails that test, there's a good chance that things will eventually get so bad that the rest of the world is forced to re-government the U.S. much as they did with Germany in World War II.

      Let us hope that our government passes the test.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  9. SQRL is a possibility by surfdaddy · · Score: 1

    If Steve Gibson ever gets the coding completed (the spec is already public I believe) this could be a potentially good solution, not perfect but much better than SSNs.

  10. Should All The Data Be Always Available by ChrisC1234 · · Score: 1

    I honestly wonder if we should start removing some data and keeping it in offline or non-instantaneous storage. Or maybe some sort of distributed storage. Honestly, there is no reason for some company to have everyone's SSNs and other data readily available 24/7. Certain relevant pieces could be kept online for easy access, but what if any access of the data required accessing it from some sort of offline/nearline storage. Or even just a time delay to retrieve the data from the system (and not just a bulk dump of database contents). Even if it took just 1 minute for a credit bureau to access your data, the ability to harvest millions of records would be severely reduced. And there should be a physical limitation to how many request these systems handle. So if there are 10,000 requests happening during a time when only 1000 typically happen, there should be alarms going off.

    1. Re:Should All The Data Be Always Available by burtosis · · Score: 1

      You are failing to not apply logic.

  11. Name vs proof. by gurps_npc · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ID has two steps: 1)Username and 2) proof of identity. Biometrics make for a great username/login. You always have them and they take no effort to 'remember'. They make for a horrible proof/password:

    1) They can't be changed if someone gets a hold of yours.

    2) You leave copies all over the place (fingerprints, DNA samples, pictures of your eyes).

    3) It is pretty easy to fake them.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  12. You're a bunch of dumabasses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Companies and transitively government already have all your political beliefs, purchases, web browsing, porn habits, translations of what you say near your devices etc. Using chips in your credit cards and biometrics just makes life easier when voting, tracking your vote was recorded as intended, making purchases on Amazon, etc. Get in the twentieth century or twenty first if you aren't too fearful of your shadow

  13. Wonderful by burtosis · · Score: 1, Funny

    Fixing your credit in the future sure is easy! Simply rip out both eyes and replace them, use a crispr variant to change enough genetic markers, then cut off all the skin on your fingers and buy new skin. Fill out all 17 forms in triplicate and visit both state and federal offices to recertify. That should hold you for at least a few weeks till they the data gets stolen again.

  14. How dare you say something sensible by wickerprints · · Score: 1

    American corporations have had a long and illustrious history of bending over its consumers and fucking them in the ass as hard as they can. And the government's role in this is to codify new and innovative ways of facilitating this collective boning. So when someone points out that a new proposal is wrong, I just want to pet their head gently and say, "oh, aren't you just the most darling idealist ever."

    This has never been about protecting people. It's always been about money, power, control, and finding new ways of making or consolidating or exerting them.

  15. Make HIPAA laws apply to banks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    One change to HIPAA law : âoe the ss number, DOB are both PHIâ ( protcted health information). Doctors deal with the draconian HIPAA lase and still survve. Ti e bor banks amd Equifax to followthe same guide.ines

  16. Re:MODERATORS ARE CENSORING POSTS... apk by mschwanke97402 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You know of course that “The Moderators” are other SlashDot readers? I get “Mod Points” several times a month. I generally use mine to mod up insightful or truly funny posts. Occasionally, I’ll mod down someone who is really out of line. Is the alt-right active here? I’ve no proof but it would surprise me. I think that anonymity of most forums does bring out the angry and mean spirited without an organized conspiracy required.

  17. Yeah, But... by mschwanke97402 · · Score: 1

    The White House and EquiFax have two different reasons for wanting to do away with Social Security numbers. EquiFax wants to diminish the damage done by their handing over of our SSNs to hackers. The White House just wants to do away with Social Security. Oh, and Medicare and Medicaid.

  18. Security is not the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If biometric ID would make us in any way safer, there wouldn't be such a push for doing it. The abuses, the dangers, the destruction of civil liberties and privacy: those are the aim, the goal, the intent and the dearest wish of those involved.

  19. Losing game by RhettLivingston · · Score: 1

    What we really need to blow this scheme out of the water is for some really wealthy bad guys to fund a project focused on using CRISPR or similar technology to change the DNA markers that have become standard in the DNA databases. Since they don't have to follow normal research rules, the research could be greatly sped up. As a side benefit, the results would leak into real medical science and speed that up - very much like the way porn has led technical development of the internet many times in the past.

    Instead of fighting this losing game, we should be looking scientifically at whether there aren't far better, out of the box we've created, ways to fight crime or eliminate the need to know identities. We've been taking paths to solve problems and doubling down when they don't instead of trying other paths. It is very much like the definition of insanity.

  20. There is perfect security by guruevi · · Score: 1

    Biometric IDs are fine if they are used as a portion of a key to unlock data.

    The best way to assure that hacks like this wonâ(TM)t have an impact is by expecting Equifax is only allowed to store an encrypted version of your data. They can still make encrypted queries against the data and get encrypted results but they donâ(TM)t get the true data. And although homomorphic encryption isnâ(TM)t all that fast yet, for what banks need it for (adding and subtracting numbers) its actually very doable.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    1. Re:There is perfect security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop replying from your iPhone, it makes your comments unintelligible.

  21. Identification vs authentication by Aethedor · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Biometrics are often heard as the alternative for the password. To see if that's a good alternative, let's take a look at the characteristics of both username and password.

    The username

    • - It's not secret. It's often your name, e-mail address, employee number, etc.
    • - It's very common for people to have the same username at different systems. Specially at companies.
    • - Changing your username is not possible in most cases.

    The password

    • - It should be kept secret.
    • - For improved security, you should choose a different password for each system.
    • - Most systems allow you to change your password.

    Now, let's take a look at the characteristics of biometric information:

    • - They are not secret. You leave your fingerprints everywhere and with high resolution camera's it's not difficult to take your iris scan.
    • - Since you have only 10 fingers and two eyes, you will probably have the same biometric ID for many systems.
    • - You are not able to change any of your biometric information.

    Conclusion: biometric information is more like a username than like a password. So, the only way to properly use biometrics is to use it for identification, not for authentication. Giving biometric information to the government for authentication purposes, is dangerous. The government probably doesn't understand this topic very well, so they will probably use it in the wrong way (for authentication). Because they believe it to be more secure (thanks to all the sales talks of companies selling biometric stuff), you end up having an even more bigger problem than now in case of identity theft.

    --
    It doesn't have to be like this. All we need to do is make sure we keep talking.
    1. Re: Identification vs authentication by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But it's so hard to fake fingerprint scanning
      or it will be when the world runs out of jellybabies

  22. Hotels demand to photocopy licences by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What next? Take a scan of your eye?

  23. We tried it in the UK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    We tried biometric ID cards the UK more than ten years ago.

    Wikipedia:
    "The register was officially destroyed on Thursday, 10 February [2011] when the final 500 hard drives containing the register were shredded at RDC in Witham, Essex."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006

  24. Alternative - the GPG Model by ytene · · Score: 1

    The big problem with any form of widely-available and widely-supported identity verification scheme is that government tends to think that they need to run centrally and be centrally controlled - which in turn makes a big target for criminals [and potentially institutional abuse].

    As an alternative, I would offer the model adopted by GNU Privacy Guard, which is entirely federated, but, best of all, under the control of the individual concerned.

    For those not familiar with GPG, here is [in my own words] a brief explanation of the way in which it could be adopted for a national or even international identity scheme:-

    Like all public-key based solutions, this approach begins with key pair generation. The private key, being electronic in nature, would need to be placed on some form of storage medium.

    The public key, also in digital form, could then be offered to well-known and well-respected organisations so that they might add their digital signature. For example, imagine key-pair generation at my birth. The hospital where I was born [or the location of the mid-wife for home births] could be invited to sign my key.

    The schools and colleges I attend could sign my key.

    Each employer I work for - after background checks and verification, of course - could sign my key.

    Any financial institution with whom I open an account or borrow money could sign my key.

    Obviously there would have to be guidelines to ensure that unscrupulous institutions did not start to charge ridiculous fees. However, this private key would, over a period of time, gradually evolve a level of authenticity that would be easy for me to prove, extremely difficult for anyone else to fake and, best of all, convey very little of value to a criminal, because without my private key, they could do nothing of value with the "public" part.

    Obviously the alternative would be to have the equivalent of a centralised "Certificate Authority" [the Government, aka Big Brother] demand to sign all public keys and demand to be used, OCSP-style, to validate each time an individual attempted to assert their identity using the system. Not only do I not like that approach on privacy/freedom grounds, I don't think it would be sufficiently robust, nor do I think it would scale effectively.

    By contrast, the advantage of using the GPG scheme would be that it would be *my* choice in terms of who I asked to sign my key to prove my identity.

    One last thing... Imagine a scenario where I approach you and attempt to assert my identity and we discover that we have no mutually trusted key associates, which means that even though I have a signed key, you are not able to recognise it. In this case, a mature system would then attempt to "cross the bridge", perhaps GPS style - i.e. it would programmatically look at all my signatures, and all your recognised authorities, but then, using an OCSP-stype query system, it would be able to suggest to both of us which mutually-acceptable third parties I could use to then get my key signed until you would be willing to accept it.

    Perhaps there are also aspects of the blockchain that we could use to support that "networking" step, i.e. have a signed blockchain that records accepted connections between trusted entities, which could then be queried to identify new connection routes.

    One of the lovely things about GPG would also be the way that we can express degrees of confidence, and/or set conditions on what type of signature we would be willing, as individuals, to accept. For example, some people might be willing to accept a key from any employer of an Incorporated company; others might insist on a key from an institution with a banking license, or a recognised university or so on.

    Although I like the flexibility of this approach, the one thing I think it has to commend it above all others is that it places control in the hands of the individual.

    Interested to know what other think...

    1. Re:Alternative - the GPG Model by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      This requires each individual to have a private key, secret, not given to anyone, and available for use whenever the individual's identity is verified. The private key is impossible to fake (assuming good asymmetric crypto is used), but there's many ways a bad guy could get hold of it. If it's on a card or something, someone could steal your wallet. If it's a number you type into a system, well, keyloggers do exist. If compromised, it would be very difficult to rebuild the trust.

      It works well for the purposes it's used for now, as far as I know, but I really doubt that anything all that interesting to a criminal is protected by a GPG key.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    2. Re:Alternative - the GPG Model by ytene · · Score: 1

      I can't deny the valid challenges you raise, but the reason for offering the GPG model as an alternative to the current approach is that it works to hand control back to the User.

      I am sure that we could come up with ways of protecting the private key - but really my focus was on taking back control...

    3. Re:Alternative - the GPG Model by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I like the idea of control for the user, I just don't see how it could happen.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    4. Re:Alternative - the GPG Model by ytene · · Score: 1

      "Where there's a will, there's a way..."

      If we can put a man on the moon, we can do this.

  25. Re:There is no case. by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

    And when an organization get's hacked or accidentally leaks my Biometric info how do I change my Fingerprints/Retina/DNA etc? Also what about people who have not got viable Fingerprints or Retinas?

    --

    Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

  26. Securing an organization by gordona · · Score: 1

    There are a lot of governance frameworks thst can be followed for establishing good cyber security policies, such as those from COBIT, NIST, ISO, etc. They donâ(TM)t guarantee that the organization will be risk free (thats impossible), but help to reduce risk to acceptable levels, if they are followed and policies are reviewed and updated frequently. But if authentication procedures are too restrictive or expensive (relative to the value of the assets being protected) the organization can lose customers.

    --
    "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" -- Dr. Strangelove
  27. DL will do things you don't expect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, if you can take a pile of MRI images of tumors and predict the genotype result (picking up on features that humans have long missed) then can you predict other things from biometric information? Could it be that the real danger is not hacking the biometric information to access data behind it, but using the naked biometric data to predict eugenic factors?

  28. A simple solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about decoupling the SSN and ID numbers?
    Keep the SSN as a number that (hopefully) uniquely identifies a person. Add an ID card with its own unique ID number.
    Why two numbers?
    SSN is constant and identifies one person. ID number verifies a single SSN. The ID number is completely random, can be revoked and changed while the SSN stays the same. You don't really need a lot of biometrics, a photo would suffice, since it's unlikely that a person trying to confirm your identity based on the card would actually take your fingerprints or DNA and verify those.
    What you need then is a government API for banks, etc that takes a combination of SSN + ID and returns true or false based on whether that particular combination is currently valid. Require a fee to connect to the API and log it for excessive scanning for the same SSN.
    Anything I forgot?

  29. Biometrics != Third Party Biometrics by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 1

    The article (and much of the subsequent hollering in the comments) conflates two very related items: biometrics in general and a third-party biometric system in which that information is submitted to some centralized place.

    On the latter, I have nothing but agreement for what was said about its stupidity and danger, so there is no need to repeat all that -- I incorporate and agree with it here.

    But on the former, there is still great promise for biometric systems that are designed specifically to avoid ever sending that information out while still retaining useful properties. So this isn't about biometrics, which like anything else are a tool and not a system.

    Some very obvious cases are passports in which the biometric data are held only by the chip inside the passport itself. For concreteness, assume it's fingerprint data (could really be anything). At the time of enrollment, the fingerprint itself along with some keys are loaded onto the passport itself. At the point of verification, you send the fingerprint directly to the passport, which evaluates it and provides a signed response saying "Yes this matches" or "No this doesn't match" but does not divulge any of the data outside its boundary. It's clear that such a system does not lead to the stupidity and danger associated with large databases of biometric data because it simply doesn't require such a thing.

    More generally, by being "against biometrics' broadly, the community of folks that are interested in the intersection of security and privacy are forgoing their chance to provide productive input. The result is that you get stupid biometric systems (the kind we all agreed are stupid and dangerous) instead of being able to champion designs with the kind of properties that we want.

    [ And indeed, the designs are going to keep coming. It only makes sense to play an all-or-nothing strategy in a game where you might win. ]

  30. Shatter identity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Each place you do business should do its own validation. Sending off to some central location makes that location the place to hack.
    See Equifax. A bank should not give out money based on some 3rd party validation. If they give out money based on some numbers easily stolen from Equifax, that should be the BANK'S LOSS! They should have individual identity verification. The SSN should only be used for TAXES and NOTHING ELSE.
    Your photo and something that they can have in court to prove it was you that owed the money, when it is given to you.
    A bank giving money to someone else, then chasing you to pay, should be liable for "intentional infliction of emotional distress".
    The Board of Directors should be held for failure to protect the company's assets.
    The ones with the most money should have the higher standards applied.

    1. Re:Shatter identity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It already works this way. If a bank loans $20 million to some identity thief who says he's me I don't get stuck paying it back. The bank eats it. Technically I guess they write it off on their taxes as a loss. They actually probably have insurance (although FDIC does not cover cybertheft.)
      Banks are not required to refund fraudulent credit card charges, but they typically do so in their own interest. Basically if they try to force people to pay large fraudulent charges, especially ones that have resulted from leaks rather than the consumer losing their cards or otherwise compromising them, then they know many people will simply refuse to pay. More over the PR result will be highly negative. With so many other places to get credit their customers will simply go to another credit card company, which does not do this. The credit card companies are also smart enough to know that the best way to get state legislatures or congress to pass laws preventing them from making people pay for charges they didn't make is try to penalize people for something they have no control over.
      Yeah I know politicians are bought and paid for, but the best way to lose an election is to piss off big enough percentage of the electorate. And lobbyist stop paying you if you lose the election.

  31. Biometric IDs are fine, if... by bradley13 · · Score: 1

    Biometrics are fine, as along as people realize exactly what they are. They are one step in a possible identification process.

    Like an SSN, biometrics are unchangeable. However, using them in identity theft is considerably harder. Creating a fake fingerprint is possible, but it's not trivial. It's like putting a better lock on your front door - one you can't open just by jiggling it: it keeps the stupid thieves out, but the slightly less stupid ones will just come in through the window. As such, biometrics are an improvement, if not much of one.

    There's the old saying in security: Something you have, something you know and something you are.

    - Lousy security requires only one of those: Have a (fake) ID, Know (someone else's) SSN, Show a (picture of a) face to a face scanner. Easy to bypass.

    - Better security requires two (2FA): For example: Know a password, and have the Smartphone that gets the SMS.

    - The best security requires all three: For example: biometrics (you are) embedded on the ID (you have), unlocks with a PIN (you know).

    Perfect security? Doesn't exist, we shouldn't pretend it does, and we shouldn't allow governments and corporations to pretend that they can provide it.

    Biometrics are a better lock. By themselves insufficient, but better than what we had before.

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
  32. Re:MODERATORS ARE CENSORING POSTS... apk by thegreatbob · · Score: 1

    One huge factor you are missing is that when you're offtopic, you get modded offtopic. So no, moderators aren't censoring calls to ban bumpstocks, they're downmodding offtopic copy-pastas.

    --
    There is no XUL, only WebExtensions...
  33. Re:MODERATORS ARE CENSORING POSTS... apk by thegreatbob · · Score: 1

    It should also be noted that no, I am not taken in by whoever is spamming under your name; I am referring to entirely different issues. e.g. this article is regarding why biometric IDs are/aren't a good idea... what have you to say on that matter?

    --
    There is no XUL, only WebExtensions...
  34. The serious problem with biometrics by JohnFen · · Score: 2

    The serious problem with biometrics is that if your "id" is stolen, you can't change it. You're simply screwed.

  35. Standing up for your rights.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    means emigration at this point.

    I have chosen not to have children in the US in large part because the rights I was promised as a child not only don't exist today, but many of them were lies when the public school system told me about them 30-40 years ago.

    The only chance we really have today is not only voting with our feet, but congregating into social groups who have the technical expertise and wherewithal to create new societies. Smaller manageable societies where every persons voice will be heard because there aren't thousands of 'company line' voices drowning them out. The sole needs for governments on the macro level we have today are military and environmentally protective in nature. Everything else can be done with smaller governments and mission oriented inter-government compacts/organizations created as needed and most importantly destroyed as they prove unable to maintain their side of the obligations stated in their charter.

    But nobody is willing to risk their cushy lives to really make this happen. Just look at Peter Thiel's backtracking on his beliefs around seasteading. Or the Liberland guy's showboating. Or the new Sealand guy's lack of a serious business plan for the platform.

  36. It doesn't matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's good to have this debate, and to ask these questions. However, the biggest user of authentication by far is the US Government, and no matter what arises from the debate, if they decide you will bio-metrics, you will use bio-metrics. Thought one would like to believe that the Government follows some good decision making processes; It doe s not. The rules that drive Governmental decision making are very simple.
    1- I have money and must spend it, or I will not get the same amount next fiscal year.
    2- Make a decision, not having sufficient data, not vetting, and not understanding the consequences do not matter. What matters is that one is able to report "I have taken some action"
    3- If it's on Wikipedia, it's true
    4- We'll wait until we (The government) have a problem with the issue (Enough people have died), before we'll invest the time an energy to do anything.
    5- We aren't going to do anything, until we get more money

    This is not being pessimistic, but simply reporting the facts, as anyone who has ever worked in a government office will recognize the behavior.
    And, being totally honest, it is not the elected officials that run the government. It is the entrenched bureaucrats who run things day-to-day.

  37. Unfortunately the solution is known by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only proven way to do high assurance user authentication is with a cryptographic token (like a CAC or PIV or a Passport) issued face-to-face by a Trusted Agent.

    E.g. You go to your bank with copies of your I-9 documents and the bank creates a cryptographic token for you in your presence and with your input: A PIN or pass phase that only you know.

    The private key is burned onto the token signed with your PIN so only you can release it.
    The problem is that in creating high assurance identity you've also eliminated all transaction privacy (the user can't pretend to be someone else or no one)

  38. Impersonating me? Weak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject: Whoever the fool is attempting to "impersonate me" only proves that I've REALLY 'gotten to them' somehow (thanks)...

    * I am with you on something though - there is a TON of bogus downmoderation but as the saying goes? "When all your opposition has is censorship you've obviously won" (& I am highly against the LOON(s) who shot all those folks up in Vegas - I think it's somekind of falseflag OR an attempt @ further dividing our nation up ala the KING of bogus evil in that capacity, George Soros paying off groups like BLM & Antifa to do so...) - but GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE - people do. NO reason to ban guns!

    As far as "AssFux" Ash-Fox? That whimp's a weasel who ALWAYS starts w/ me (he's 'butthurt' I've busted him up on tech issues is all that is).

    APK

    P.S.=> Provoking weasel reactions like yours is all the satisfaction anyone needs... apk

  39. Force all Liability on the Lenders by LeftCoastThinker · · Score: 1

    This exactly. The real problem here isn't identity theft, it is the pathetic level of verification used by the lenders. I agree that putting all liability on the lenders is the right approach (there are already laws on the books to this effect for the most part), but there is virtually no way to totally eliminate the harassment that an ID theft victim gets, because the lenders are still going to pursue collection on the premise that you are just a deadbeat borrower.

    99% of all ID theft would evaporate if federal law required an unobstructed front facing photograph and fingerprints of anyone applying for any credit as well as a scan of your government issued photo ID, as part of the credit application record. Put in a requirement for default 2 factor authentication via either a cell phone call, a call to the residence or snail mail to the residence of record.

    If this were implemented, any ID thief is forced to leave their fingerprints and photo in every false credit application they make, and they would fail the 2 factor authentication, preventing them from receiving same day credit. The lenders don't want to implement it because it would cost them loans and add a 5% overhead to their cost of doing business, whereas eating ID theft today costs them 3% overhead... Meanwhile the ID theft victim spends an average of ~100h dealing with all the bullshit to clean up their credit and secure their ID.

    --
    If you disagree, please post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like
    1. Re:Force all Liability on the Lenders by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      The US screws up any attempts at banking verification. Everyone in the world uses secure PIN debit cards and the US matches the secure chip with a fucking signature, for transactions over $20, who gives a rip about anything under that amount, AMIRITE?

    2. Re:Force all Liability on the Lenders by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      So, the bad guy gets a photograph and fingerprints and has a government ID card made that'll look good enough with a mediocre scan. Unless you're saying the applicant should always appear in person for credit decisions, there's no connection between bad guy and recorded data. We could avoid a lot of fraud by requiring people to go places physically, and disrupt a very large amount of business.

      The credit-giving agency then has to call a phone number, and get someone who will say they're the guy being impersonated. What phone number? How does the agency confirm that the phone number is the right one? The crook needs to have a cell phone. It may have to be registered under a name the bad guy doesn't quite have the legal right to use. Now, you've pushed the burden of authentication onto the phone company, since that's the one external record you use. Use snail mail? There's several ways around that. File a phony address with the credit application. Send a change of address form. Watch mail deliveries to the correct address, and steal the envelope.

      I really don't think that's going to work.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    3. Re:Force all Liability on the Lenders by LeftCoastThinker · · Score: 1

      "Unless you're saying the applicant should always appear in person for credit decisions"

      That is exactly what I am saying, either in person on site or at a local notary public to verify their identity. And when they appear in person, the person who is applying should be required to have a high resolution, full facial photograph with no obstruction (glasses, hats, hoodies, etc.). That photograph and a set of their fingerprints should then be compared with those on file and filed with the application for credit. Legit borrowers have no issue with this, but if the data doesn't match, no same day credit and a mandatory call to the number on file as well as the local PD to check things out further. Providing credit online almost never happens anyway, but when necessary could be handled by a notary public. Most of the retail credit cards and phone companies that extend credit don't do these basic things to verify that the person getting credit is actually the person whose identity is being used. They just take a few numbers which are honestly pretty easy to get these days, and that has got to change.

      --
      If you disagree, please post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like
  40. The fix is simple by Shotgun · · Score: 1

    Credit reporting agencies make money by sending my information to people that pay for it. If someone was asking questions about a friend of mine, simple politeness would require me to inform my friend that so-and-so was asking about him.

    Me: "Hey, Bill. You're ex was asking about you the other day."
    Bill: "You don't say. What did you tell her?"

    The way to fix this whole credit reporting mess is that if someone makes an inquiry to the reporting agency (i.e., someone asks about me), the reporting agency should be required to mail me a copy of what they pass on. If they are saying something wrong, I can challenge them and get the information corrected. If the person requesting information didn't have my permission, I would know identity theft was in the works and could stop the bank from extending credit.

    --
    Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
    Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  41. Settled, then. by BenBoy · · Score: 1

    "The White House and Equifax Agree: Social Security Numbers Should Go,"

    Well then, with two such highly skilled, intelligent entities, with such marvelous track records, sayin' so, gosh, I'm in! Scan me first!

  42. It's all ones and zeros anyways by Mozai · · Score: 1
    So if we stop using numbers, and use fingerprints or retinas instead, that's supposed to be more secure... but how do we communicate the biometric patterns over the wire to prove our identities? We encode the patterns as numbers. And the other party must have a record of those encoded numbers to compare with to see if there's a match.

    We're still using social security numbers, we're just using very pretty numbers. And numbers that can't be revoked when (not if) there's another breach.

  43. Just use CAC/PIV by flink · · Score: 1

    The federal government already maintains a national ID database for military personnel, civil servants, and government contractors. It consists of a smart card containing a certificate tied to the USG PKI. The card is unlocked with a PIN and can be used for signing documents or signing/encrypting emails. The documentation requirements are almost exactly the same as for getting a passport (e.g. birth certificate + state ID). These cards are already recognized by most federal agencies, and can be soft authenticated offline just by verifying the certificate chain.

  44. Re:There is no case. by SNRatio · · Score: 1

    Biometric ids are intrinsically secure - so long as they are only used to verify your identity in person, not remotely. It doesn't matter if someone hacks your data, it would still be pretty hard for them to fake your IPD, and pretty expensive for them to make custom contact lenses to fake an iris scan.

  45. Re:There is no case. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For now.

    Next year, 3D printed contact lenses make it cost all of $50 to fake iris scans.

    Better yet, hold up the right QR code to the iris scanner, and the scanner software is hacked into giving you admin access.