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EPA Says Higher Radiation Levels Pose 'No Harmful Health Effect' (bloomberg.com)

Readers share a report: In the event of a dirty bomb or a nuclear meltdown, emergency responders can safely tolerate radiation levels equivalent to thousands of chest X-rays, the Environmental Protection Agency said in new guidelines that ease off on established safety levels. The EPA's determination sets a level ten times the drinking water standard for radiation recommended under President Barack Obama. It could lead to the administration of President Donald Trump weakening radiation safety levels, watchdog groups critical of the move say. "It's really a huge amount of radiation they are saying is safe," said Daniel Hirsch, the retired director of the University of California, Santa Cruz's program on environmental and nuclear policy. "The position taken could readily unravel all radiation protection rules." The change was included as part of EPA "guidance" on messaging and communications in the event of a nuclear power plant meltdown or dirty bomb attack. The FAQ document, dated September 2017, is part of a broader planning document for nuclear emergencies, and does not carry the weight of federal standards or law.

18 of 296 comments (clear)

  1. Debated for a long time by XXongo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This has been debated for a long time. It's a question of whether the data from higher exposures can be correctly extrapolated to lower doses using the Linear No Threshold model.

    1. Re:Debated for a long time by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Essentially, the debate is about keeping as broad a safety margin as possible.

      If it were trivially-cheap to analyze water for the presence of lead--let's say it cost 1 penny per hundred billion gallons of treated water to remove and verify lead content down to the 1/1,000,000 ppb level (that means any given lake-sized volume of treated water has a high likelihood of having zero lead atoms in it period)--we would mandate that. Why wouldn't you?

      What failures in measurement expose us to additional radiation? What procedures (e.g. radiology) do we go through that exposes us to additional radiation? For a population of hundreds of million, is this level of radiation prone to cause a hundred more incidences of cancer (trivial) on its own, before interacting with other factors?

      One person in America dying every year might be a triviality. If it costs millions of dollars to prevent that, well, let's not do it: you'll save more lives investing that in charity and anti-poverty measures. If it costs pennies per year, then yes let's do that.

      "Pennies" quickly becomes "dollars" and "millions of dollars" as you add zeroes onto the end of that one person. 1,000 persons per year? Maybe we want to invest several million dollars into this--especially since "dying" isn't binary when you get past bullets to the head. Even highway safety measures come down to death, dismemberment, or property damage.

      It's a matter of risk--a highly-technical concept nobody seems to know all that much about.

    2. Re:Debated for a long time by MrKaos · · Score: 5, Informative

      Radiation exposure is well understand and extrapolated, and has been for years.

      The public risk perception of radiation is so far from reality, it could possibly make us do stupid things.

      Your perception of the risk from radiation is so far from reality, you've simplified the model to the point of being useless.

      That's been my experience of your posts, that all of the knowledge gathered since the 1950s just doesn't exist. You don't understand :

      • The difference between a radionuclide and the radiation it emits
      • The difference between internal and external radiation exposure
      • The difference between being exposed to radiation and having an emitter inside you exposing you 24x7
      • What bioaccumulation is
      • That detection in food and water is really hard
      • That you can eat a radionuclide
      • That you can drink a radionuclide
      • That you can breathe in a radionuclide
      • That some radionuclides appear like different types of micro-nutirents to a matabolism
      • That it deposits in different parts of the body
      • That it can be organically bound in the body and not excreted
      • That organically bound exposure increases absorption of radiation
      • That it can be chemically toxic
      • That children are more susceptible than adults
      • That an effect could be death
      • That an effect could be cancer
      • That an effect could be gene damage
      • That an effect could be failed birth
      • That an effect could be a birth defect
      • That an effect could be transgenic disease that effect the next generation
      • That an effect could be reduced brainweight of, and lower IQ in infants
      • That there is still stuff we don't know

      Then you:

      • Ignore facts even when they are cited from reputable sources
      • Don't seem to want to understand
      • Continue to shill as if you have an agenda
      • Claim everything is FUD
      • Minimize the apparent harm
      • Ignore data collected from unbiased sources
      • Refuse to accept that some data *is* biased Nuclear PR
      • Refuse to accept the impact of media blackout for Fukushima
      • Refuse to accept the work of Ukrainian scientists studying Chernobyl

      There is a reason the NRC uses ALARA, figuring out this stuff is complicated and the easiest thing to do so your brain doesn't explode from thinking about it is to keep the potential risk of exposure ultra conservative.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    3. Re:Debated for a long time by dywolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, this is nothing more than Pruitt continuing to use his newfound power at the EPA to cut costs for his corporate owners.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  2. Nuclear Winter is A-OK... by Anonymous+Cashews · · Score: 5, Informative

    When the neutered Secretary of State says diplomacy will continue with North Korea until the first bomb drops, and the EPA comes out with revised radiation levels that ups the ante from before, I start to worry.

  3. Easy enough solution by Ogive17 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The policy makers must be the 1st to respond to such a disaster.

    We'll find out very quickly if they believe they did the right thing.

    --
    "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    1. Re:Easy enough solution by GrumpySteen · · Score: 4, Funny

      Why wait? Since it's safe, surely they'll have no problem submitting to thousands of chest x-rays right now.

    2. Re:Easy enough solution by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Putting this in some perspective, it's something less than 20 CT scans. While that seems high, it's well within the range of what some (sick) people get. Not a great idea, but a 'tolerable' level of radiation.

      Remember, these are for first responder guidelines. Not chronic exposures. First responders are at some risk of various and sundry hazards. And often first response safety considerations means balancing various issues. Sure, you can dress up in a Class A Hazmat suit but if you keel over because of heat prostration or trip over the bit of rebar you didn't see you may end up with a bunch of x-rays anyway. Being an adrenaline junkie has it's dangers.

      It would, however, be nice to see if there was some sort of substantive evidence for this.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:Easy enough solution by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Putting this in some perspective, it's something less than 20 CT scans

      I really hate when CT scans are used as an example. The range of exposure is so wide and varies a lot depending on the type of scanner it is. A cardiac function CT scan on a 10 year old scanner could be 30 mSv or higher. Yet the same scan on a 2 year old scanner would be under 5 mSv. And with a newer sequence from the last 6 months could be as low as 1 mSv. An angiogram from a few years ago could be 16 mSv, but are well under 1 mSv on a modern scanner. There are many scans that are done these days that are at .2 mSv.

      It also depends on what body part is being scanned. The exposure in the extremities are different than the head or thorax. The age of a patient is also a big factor. hitting an 85 year old with 10 mSv is a hell of a lot different than a 6 month old.

    4. Re:Easy enough solution by mrclevesque · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Putting this in some perspective, it's something less than 20 CT scans. While that seems high, it's well within the range of what some (sick) people get. Not a great idea, but a 'tolerable' level of radiation."

      In other words, it's tolerable for a sick person who might die if they don't get the scans, but it's not ok or 'tolerable' for a healthy person.

  4. Let's all keep one thing in mind. by cunina · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is no more EPA. It's gone. This article has no meaning and should be filtered out as noise.

    1. Re:Let's all keep one thing in mind. by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      By "out of control", you mean put citizen's welfare ahead of commercial interests. Yes I agree, it was totally out of control, and it's high time that people got bigger doses of poison and radiation because JOBS!

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  5. Trump...North Korea...Iran... by Taskmage · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Maybe i'm just paranoid (most likely) but...does this look like preparing the public for a planned nuclear war?

  6. Hyperbole by XXongo · · Score: 5, Informative
    The headline is rather stretching. They are not "establishing new guidelines".

    The discussion is about a few statements buried deep inside the pamphlet, "Protective Action Questions & Answers for Radiological and Nuclear Emergencies", which is not a "guideline" or any kind of regulation setting radiation standards: https://www.epa.gov/sites/prod...

    The statement is on page 18, in the section "55. What are millirem (mrem) and millisieverts (mSv)?"
    "According to radiation safety experts, radiation exposures of 5–10 rem (5,000–10,000 mrem or 50–100 mSv) usually result in no harmful health effects, because radiation below these levels is a minor contributor to our overall cancer risk."

    .. followed by repeating the same statement in the same words on the next page, in section 57. Will people who have been exposed to the radiation get cancer?
    "There is clear evidence that high doses of radiation can raise your risk of cancer. Although cancer has been associated with high doses of radiation received over short periods of time, the cancers usually do not appear for many years, even decades.
    According to radiation safety experts, radiation exposures of 5–10 rem (5,000–10,000 mrem or 50–100 mSv) usually result in no harmful health effects, because radiation below these levels is a minor contributor to our overall cancer risk.

    And then repeating it in exactly the same words in the next page over again: 60. Are people at risk for radiation poisoning or sickness?
    Radiation sickness is an illness from short-term exposure to a large amount of radiation. In the United States, dose is measured in units called millirem (mrem). The international unit is the millisievert (mSv). According to radiation safety experts, radiation exposures of 5–10 rem (5,000–10,000 mrem or 50–100 mSv) usually result in no harmful health effects, because radiation below these levels is a minor contributor to our overall cancer risk.
    Safety recommendations are designed to keep your dose as low as possible.
    It takes a large dose of radiation—more than 75 rem (75,000 mrem or 750 mSv)—in a short amount of time (usually minutes to hours) to cause immediate health effects, such as acute radiation sickness.

    But these are not guidelines, and not even proposed guidelines. The numbers seem to be consistent with health effects stated in other sources, e.g., http://www.radiationanswers.or... or http://www.radiationanswers.or... :
    * 10 rem received in a short period or over a long period is safe—we don’t expect immediate observable health effects, although your chances of getting cancer might be very slightly increased.
    * 100 rem received in a short time can cause observable health effects from which your body will likely recover, and 100 rem received in a short time or over many years will increase your chances of getting cancer.

    1. Re:Hyperbole by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 5, Funny

      But these are not guidelines, and not even proposed guidelines. The numbers seem to be consistent with health effects stated in other sources, e.g., http://www.radiationanswers.or... or http://www.radiationanswers.or... :

      Dang it, there you go being all rational and stuff. We're trying to be outraged here!

  7. Linear relation, with cutoff by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you voted for the party of less regulation. Yes, there's a lot of silly laws on the books, but the really silly ones are ignored by everyone. When it comes time to cut regulations these are the ones that get cut.

    This discussion came up about airport X-ray machines years ago, and sparked a debate about exposure safety.

    There appears to be a linear relation between amount of exposure and number of cancers(*), but only for rather excessive levels of radiation. The debate centers on whether there is a "cutoff", where any exposure less than some amount is negligible.

    It's hard to get quantitative information about this because the exposure levels are small, and the results won't be known for decades. IIRC, my calculations at the time indicated that 10 or 20 new cases of cancer *might* be caused by 9 billion airline flights. (Those 10-20 new cancers is not nothing, I'm just pointing out that finding the correlation in all that noise is all but impossible. Attention paid to more likely health threats would be a better way to spend effort and resources**.)

    The prevailing opinion is that the body deals with and repairs all sorts of damage in it's day-to-day operation, so that damage smaller than a set level will get swept up along with all the other repairs.

    Strangely, there is actually no menace in this recent decision, and the "party of less regulation" is doing what appears to be the right thing.

    (*) I once wrote an article about airport X-ray systems, which required a bunch of research.

    (**) Interestingly, that was then and this is now. Since everyone has to register to take a plane flight, we now have about 15 years of data that could be mined here. Take a cohort of plane travellers and divide them into 2 groups: people who take many flights per year, versus people who take few flights per year, and compare their rates of cancer later in life, against a similar cohort taken from the general population.

  8. Re:NO RADON INSPECTION REQUIRED ? by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Funny

    A couple of hundred millirems per week may not be as bad as a few milirems from an alpha particle for dozens of years for kids playing in the basement.

    Wait a second, just how long did you keep your kids in the basement? If you keep someone in there for dozens of years then they definitely aren't kids any more... And you're a bad person

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  9. Re:NO RADON INSPECTION REQUIRED ? by PPH · · Score: 4, Funny

    If you keep someone in there for dozens of years

    Keep him there? We can't get him to leave.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.