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The Impossible Dream of USB-C (marco.org)
Marco Arment, a prominent developer best known for co-founding Tumblr, explains things that are still crippling USB-C, despite being around for years and being used in mainstream products. Arment writes: While a wide variety of USB-C dongles are available, most use the same handful of unreliable, mediocre chips inside. Some USB-A dongles make Wi-Fi drop on MacBook Pros. Some USB-A devices don't work properly when adapted to USB-C, or only work in certain ports. Some devices only work when plugged directly into a laptop's precious few USB-C ports, rather than any hubs or dongles. And reliable HDMI output seems nearly impossible in practice. Very few hubs exist to add more USB-C ports, so if you have more than a few peripherals, you can't just replace all of their cables with USB-C versions. You'll need a hub that provides multiple USB-A ports instead, and you'll need to keep your USB-A cables for when you're plugged into the hub -- but also keep USB-C cables or dongles around for everything you might ever need to plug directly into the computer's ports. Hubs with additional USB-C ports might pass Thunderbolt through to them, but usually don't. Sometimes, they add a USB-C port that can only be used for power passthrough. Many hubs with power passthrough have lower wattage limits than a 13-inch or 15-inch laptop needs. Fortunately, USB-C is a great charging standard. Well, it's more of a collection of standards. USB-C devices can charge via the slow old USB rates, but for higher-powered devices or faster charging, that's not enough current.
Seems like a stream of thought list of statements rather than a cohesive message. Maybe that's the point?
Dude has a short memory, remember when USB stood for Unsupported Serial Bus?
https://xkcd.com/927/
Firewire or bust
I'm going to write a spec for USB-AC... delivers 120 Volts AC to all of your peripherals.
The guy is basically complaining that USB-C doesn't work well on Apple products. Most of his complaints are due directly to design decisions by Apple... "laptop's precious few USB-C ports", "dongles make Wi-Fi drop on MacBook Pros", etc.
Just last night I was trying to copy a small config file to my android box. Samba wasn't working for me. Sftp transfer? I set up an ssh server. Nope wasn't working either. I see a flash drive, and think, why don't I just simply move the file with the flash drive. I grab the flash drive and run to my laptop and remember it's a macbook with usb-c and I have no idea where the usb dongle is. I felt defeated at that point.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
My only USB-C charger burst into flames, with nothing plugged into it! And I mean the USB-C connector itself, not the wall wart.
Even worse, I was on vacation - 100 miles from the nearest store that might carry a replacement.
Next time I went phone shopping, my #1 criteria was NO USB-C!
You realize that USB-C is in no way proprietary crap, right?
With new job I got a new MacBook Pro and had only USB-C which has been nothing but annoying so far.
The 4 ports aren't enough and they are too close to each other for most C-A adapters since they are quite wide.
Also very frustrating is that apple decided to make escape a touch key which isn't always there and has no tactile feedback.
USB-C is proprietary? Since when?
hey, they got the "build incompatible shit and flog it to people as a veblen good" part of jobs' legacy spot on...^M ...wait that was his whole legacy.
But now I need to worry about injection attacks when connecting to a power source. WTF?
IMHO, USB-C is not a good idea for all things.
That and that the removed interfacens were proprirtary crap.
+----------------- | What is the question!
It's the USB part. In other words, ISB-C should never have come into existence. Trying to build upon the weak foundation that is USB hurt USB-C from the beginning. The effort required for USB compatibility was overwhelming and crippling.
As someone looking to buy a Switch next week - and charge it around the house and in the car - I've been looking at USB-C a lot lately, and this article tells me nothing. The biggest issue seems to be the USB-A 2amp bottleneck, or something, more than USB-C per se. For me the best thing about USB-C is it has no top or bottom, it just fits, USB should have been like this from the beginning. It seems to be nearly small enough for any device yet powerful enough for any device. Why is hasn't become the new industry standard I don't know, but reading that article didn't help. Here's hoping to a long and successful 5 or 6 years for Switch and USB-C gaining from that exposure.
Yeah, that's right. Fuck You, for removing every proven interface off your latest hardware and replacing it with this proprietary crap.
I wish this kind of fucking courage would spell the demise of such stupidity, but chances are Apple's particular flavor of ignorant Greed will force them to double-down on proprietary interface bullshit to maximize revenue streams. Soon, every model will be devoid of tried and true interfaces, and we'll be left with "you're plugging it in wrong."
And you just noticed this?
Apple's been removing interfaces since 1998.
1. He's absolutely right about it being a "collection of standards", where it's unclear whether a USB-C receptacle is power-only, high-power, power+data...etc. That inconsistency is hindrance to adoption, rather than flexibility.
2. There are tens of billions of items with USB-A connectors, for which even the 480mbits/sec of USB 2.0 is 'fast enough', and USB3 speeds are "definitely fast enough". Quite a number of these things are rather expensive. By contrast, there are very, very few devices that have a USB-C port for something other than charging.
3. Machines with USB-A ports tend to have a lot of them. Most standard-sized laptops have 3-5 of them, desktops have 6-10. I've yet to see a computer with USB-C provide more than two such ports. It does not help spur adoption when the number of ports available amount to "one to charge, one for the hub for all the other things".
4. Cables are expensive...except when they are inexpensive and they don't work, or outright combust.
But the really big reason I feel that USB-C hasn't gone much of anywhere is because no one really asked for it. The 12mbits/sec of USB 1.1 was quickly a bottleneck, and it was backwards compatible. The 480Mbits/sec of USB 2.0 was fast enough for plenty of things, but bulk data transfers and other tasks benefit from USB3...and both of them were backwards compatible at a physical level. USB-C is "maybe whatever you want it to be", doesn't have the same connectors, lacks real standardization beyond the connectors...and aside from the ability to flip it, from a customer's point of view it's supposed to be superior, how?
I'm sure it will increase its momentum and/or find a niche eventually, but the fact that it's going to require a painful and expensive transition period makes it the kind of thing that will take far longer than the iterations of USB that have been the standard for nearly two decades.
USB-C doesn't solve any problem I have, so I'm not going to go out of my way for it and am not particularly excited about it. But I won't resist it, either. I'll adopt is as devices I use switch to it.
The idea of Lightning cables is good but being Apple of course its proprietary. I had Android phones for years and recently switched to an iPhone. While some things work better others I can't stand. Like not being able to use the phone like a USB drive. If I'm not at my home computer there is no way to add an audio or video file onto the phone other than maybe through iCould.
I guess my ideal phone is a jailbroken iPhone. That way I can ssh in and do whatever I want without being stopped by the OS protections.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
With all that tumblr experience, I would have thought plugging dongles into ports would be something they are an expert at. Looks like I was wrong.
Yeah, that's right. Fuck You, for removing every proven interface off your latest hardware and replacing it with this proprietary crap.
What "proprietary crap" are you talking about? USB-C may have issues but it isn't proprietary anymore than previous versions of USB. And I'm not remotely interested in going back to 25 position D-Subs or other crappy serial bus interfaces from days of yore. Just because an interface is "proven" doesn't mean it is necessary. And just because it is "proven" doesn't mean we should be stuck with it for the rest of eternity. I'm not advocating removing interfaces that are necessary/useful currently for no good reason, but I am saying that compromising a product to remain compatible with dead end technology is a bad idea when it can be reasonably avoided.
I wish this kind of fucking courage would spell the demise of such stupidity, but chances are Apple's particular flavor of ignorant Greed will force them to double-down on proprietary interface bullshit to maximize revenue streams.
The problems with USB-C are not specific to Apple so I don't really get the point of your bile towards Apple here. Not saying Apple doesn't deserve criticism but let's save it for when it has something actually to do with Apple. If you don't like Apple products then buy something else that suits you. They aren't the only game in town by a long shot.
Thunderbolt (which the USB-C connector replaces, but still transports) was proprietary... USB-C is an industry standard. So why are you complaining about PROPRIETARY garbage? Apple has changed to a STANDARD connector, that can optionally carry Apple's proprietary protocol - but you can simply choose not to use it if you wish.
The problem with USB-C is the same as most other PC industry standards, that is to say it's an ill-thought out hot mess in practice.
I think USB-C from the physical port side is actually really nice, it is handy having just one kind of plug and all of them bidirectional.
Where Apple missed the boat is not having a bunch of reference-quality USB-C devices out on day one, that were really well built and had really advanced electronics. So then instead of navigating a morass of half-working USB-C cables and devices you could just say "screw it, I'll buy all Apple USB-C cables, and an Apple USB-C hub, and an Apple USB-C external drive enclosure" and been done with the whole thing. They partially did that, they have a number of well-built cables, its the other areas that lack and/or are very hard to find quality products (especially a good hub).
How bad is the USB-C hub situation? Well we I got a MacBook Pro last year, I bought a few cheap hubs to try out. Mostly they kind of worked (though as stated none could serve to charge the laptop), but one hub simply did not work AT ALL! It had an SD reader - didn't work. It had USB-A passthroughs - didn't work. It had an HDMI port - didn't work. When I asked for a refund they didn't even ask for it back. All of the hubs I got were extremely poorly made, and felt like crap which leads you to think something you rely on daily may fail at any moment...
I do think over time this will all smooth out though and USB-C will be much better going forward... in the meantime just be very careful about what you buy and if you have a MacBook maybe even only buy USB-C accessories that Apple sells in stores, or do a lot of research to ensure compatibility.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
They decided to push USB-C and removed all USB-A ports before the USB-C specifications were ready? Sure USB-C can replace a lot of things on paper, but in real life it looks like a real mess of nearly a dozen different specifications.
And the only Apple laptop left with USB-A ports is the MacBook Air, with an old 5th-generation intel CPU, a sub-par TN display and a standard of 8GB RAM with no 16GB option.
#DeleteFacebook
When did the word "dongle" become a synonym for "adapter" instead of referring to a hardware copy protection device? Who made this decision, and why wasn't I sent the memo?
USB C you later!
There's a dongle for that.
It’s comforting to think that over time, this will all settle down and we’ll finally achieve the dream of a single cable and port for everything.
No, that's not comforting. If such a wonderful time ever arrives, it will be followed shortly by a new "connector to replace them all" and we'll be at the front end of that train once again.
Except that this is about USB-C which is in no way proprietary...
The transition is unnecessarily painful, but otherwise USB-C is a great idea that addresses most of the old USB issues.
USB-C allows for must more power--I can plug in a USB-C cable and have power and accessories for my laptop, and it's great for phone charging.
USB-C finally eliminates issues with upside-down USB connectors.
USB-C has the same connector on both ends of the cable.
USB-C should be fully backwards compatible with dongles.
USB-C power should allow for nearly universal DC power. Ideally all home routers, switches, and such will use USB-C power, eliminating a wide assortment of power bricks and connectors. In fact, pretty much every wall wart power brick could be switched to USB-C. (Yes, this may mean USB-C wall warts, but it may also mean USB-C outlets.)
USB-C does have potential security issues, as does any USB-power option. This is something that device manufacturers should have been dealing with all along, but it's even more important now.
But there are problems where USB-C doesn't work as advertised. Many sub-standard cables and such are circulating, causing all sorts of problems. Lack of ports and dongles present a nasty headache in the short term.
My conclusion is that now is a lousy time to buy a new computer. In two years, they should have plenty of USB-C ports, and everything will have switched over to it. Given the choice for a phone, though, I would pick USB-C over micro-USB.
Since you don't even know ANYTHING about the port when they say it is USB-C. Does it pass through thunderbolt? Does it pass through display port? Does it support any of a half dozen power settings? You just don't know the answers, so USB-C is kinda pointless as a moniker.
Why does the fella who started Tumblr think hes suddenly part of the IEEE? We need new ports and cables to support this new fangled standard. (Duh.) Old cables are backwards compatible (score!) but dont work the same as the new (double duh!) And not to be hypocritical here by thinking my tiny slice of the world is authoritative but I use HDMI over USB-C daily.
will work for dragon quest localization
Arment was Tumblr's first lead developer & CTO, but not a co-founder. It was founded by its CEO, David Karp.
Thunderbolt 1 and 2 had the same issues the ext pci-e idea was cool but warp it with video and to tie it on board video chips?? (at least some pro workstations had TB cards with an DP loop back cable to the full size video card)
TB3 is just warping DP + TB + USB into one.
Apple really need to keep a change port or least charger + usb-c port pass-though (full with TB) in the box.
Slashdot, you're letting me down here... Nobody read far enough to get the all but gift wraped:
Come on... If all you've got is a thinner B---D, you need to try harder.
[Mr. Arment] is upset that the latest revision of the USB specification is inconsistent garbage, precisely like each of the other revisions of the USB specification.
Amazing how we knew from the start that USB was garbage and yet we still fell for it. It's a lesson that good engineering is more than specifying something that only mostly works most of the time right when you just built it. We certainly haven't learned that lesson yet. Neither in hardware, nor in software.
Oh so you’ve just redefined proprietary to mean something it has never meant. Gotcha.
Maybe God is punishing him with signal integrity and standard interpretation issues for founding a cesspool like Tumblr. Maybe it's a lowkey, Millennial version of purgatory he's stuck in.
I don't have any devices with USB-C, but it seems like it works for everyone else.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
If you remember the times before USB-A you should ALSO remember that it didn't "just work" at the outset either. Specifically I seem to remember an awful lot of different USB devices (from CD-ROM burners to special mice) that needed drivers added to work, so it was absolutely not the case you could plug in any USB-A device and it would just work...
Even today in the waning years of USB-A I have run across devices that do not just work, trying to get a working USB-A -> Serial port adaptor was a very trying experience. I have also had over the years some VERY flaky USB-A external storage devices that were very particular as to which cables they worked well with, or simply were not very stable at all.
Within just a few years most of the USB-C issues will have smoothed out. That is in large part due to Apple shipping a LOT of devices with USB-C only, meaning that there is great motivation to making a lot of components that work well with USB-C which provides a lot of financial motivation as well as making Apple kind of a reference hardware standard for testing, as in if you are shipping a USB-C device or cable today you may make sure it works with a number of Windows laptops or phones, but you WILL make sure it works with a MacBook Pro or your Amazon ratings will be in the toilet.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Press FN if you don't see ESC currently (which is up to the app to override, the default is that ESC is present). If an app specifically took ESC out of the primary touchbar, why do you need it since the app obviously does not???
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Yes, he misused the term, but he also has a point. Pretend he said "poorly supported" rather than "proprietary".
This reads like a mirror of a rant from 1999 about how the hubs were crap, the cables expensive and variable, and the confusion rampant.
USB will never take off!
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Sure, I would agree with that but that hardly seems to be Apple’s fault. It’s what you get with “open” standards. Just like I have to juggle cables and dongles for devices where some have mini-USB and some have micro-USB and sometimes all I have is a cable with one connector and the device has thw other type.
To be fair, Apple learned this from companies like Nintendo.
tha's not enough current
Because copy and paste is too fucking hard apparently
He's absolutely right about it being a "collection of standards", where it's unclear whether a USB-C receptacle is power-only, high-power, power+data...etc. That inconsistency is hindrance to adoption, rather than flexibility.
There needs to be some kind of mandatory icon set next to the USB logo, to indicate what modes a device's USB-C ports support. Maybe with arrows pointing to/from the icon to indicate which way the support goes.
how few of the hubs or converters actually contain a USB C port themselves which allows charging. I'm still looking for something reliable which also allows to attach more USB C devices.
No, but it would be nice to keep it around alongside the new and unproven interface until that new interface becomes proven. We're talking about the (still) ubiquitious USB-A port, here, not some dead-end technology we've been trying to get away ffor years. Well, maybe some people have been trying, but even they seem to agree that jumping to USB-C before it was proven was a mistake.
Again, this is not a problem with USB-C. This is a problem with Apple's product design. Separate issues and nothing in either case that won't resolve itself with time.
USB-A (and B) is widespread but it was a badly designed connector and IS a dead end design. The power transmission in USB-C alone makes it a massive improvement. Yes it's reasonable to argue Apple got a little ahead of themselves but that doesn't mean their design instinct was wrong - just premature. They probably just should have waited one or two product generations. But the move to USB-C is a good one and I applaud them trying to move it along, however clumsily.
USB-A (and B) never had these problems, USB-C does, primarily because it's trying to be more than just USB.
Yes USB-A did have many teething problems similar to USB-C when it was first introduced. It also was a LOT simpler in its initial incarnations so there was less to go wrong. It took quite a while for drivers and other parts of the ecosystem to become sufficiently robust. I remember having all sorts of problems with USB hubs nearly identical to the issues in this article relating to USB-C. Heck I still have a few old pieces of hardware that I haven't bothered to dispose of yet that still don't play nice with USB hubs even today.
Yes, USB-C is a huge step forward... to a time I recall before USB-A took hold. If you're over 30 and remember that time as well, and still think USB-C is a net win, you'll be the first I've met.
I'm closer to 50 than to 30 and yes USB-C is a Good Thing and in my opinion replacing USB-A with USB-C cannot happen fast enough for me. It will take a few years but it's completely worth the trouble in the long run.
I have no idea with some USB-C ports what they do. How many PCI-E lanes do they pass with Thunderbolt, if any. Can they ramp up the power settings to 24 or 48 volts if needed? Can it support charging in either direction, so a charger can charge my laptop, and the laptop can charge my phone?
Ideally, it should do this all without complaint, but manufacturers, being manufacturers want to scrimp on those pennies, so you may never know what that port may support.
You realize that USB-C is in no way proprietary crap, right?
You realize that other than supplying power, the interface is essentially crap, right?
When functionality becomes that crippled, the interface might as well be proprietary crap.
It also tends to make a device rather fucking worthless when your I/O is nothing but a handful of power plugs.
Just another butt hurt Mc. owner who hasn't figured out that in reality Mc.hardware is overpriced and years out of date when it shipped. But hey, you have a spiffy aluminum case, long battery life and portability!
And yes, I do use Mc. hardware -- It's an awful experience to do anything but run a web browser. But I'm not enough of a hipster nerd to suffer through the Mc. UX and let some Mc. UX-Expert tell me what my workflow should be.
You realize that USB-C is in no way proprietary crap, right?
You realize that other than supplying power, the interface is essentially crap, right?
When functionality becomes that crippled, the interface might as well be proprietary crap.
Moving the goalposts much? You made a specific claim, you were told you were outright wrong, and now you're trying to say that you may as well be right? Huh?
Moreover, I understand having ideological differences with proprietary things, but what the hell does it even mean when you suggest that something that's low quality may as well be proprietary? That makes no sense at all.
You realize that USB-C is in no way proprietary crap, right?
You mean like Office Open XML?
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
What the hell are you talking about? USB-C is an industry standard that all PC makers are moving to implement. For years (and still now) the complaint about Apple is that they use their own proprietary connectors like Lightning. This one isn't theirs and you can blame the USB Implementer's Forum for the design choices. While Apple is member of the forum so are HP, NEC, Microsoft, and Intel.
I wish this kind of fucking courage would spell the demise of such stupidity, but chances are Apple's particular flavor of ignorant Greed will force them to double-down on proprietary interface bullshit to maximize revenue streams. Soon, every model will be devoid of tried and true interfaces, and we'll be left with "you're plugging it in wrong."
Please explain what you mean as Apple actually has to pay the non-profit USB Implementer's forum to use the tech (like every one else). Also you do realize, you can't plug-in USB-C cables wrong as the connector is not directional. But let's look at what USB-C replaced: Apple magsafe power (Apple proprietary), USB A , Thunderbolt 1 and 2 (proprietary to Intel), HDMI (also proprietary). Only the power connector was one that Apple owned. So please explain to me how Apple "doubles down" on interfaces which they don't own and get revenue.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
You realize that other than supplying power, the interface is essentially crap, right?
In what way does that negate your assertion. As for your new assertion, please explain what you mean as USB-C being smaller and bi-directional is only a connector.
When functionality becomes that crippled, the interface might as well be proprietary crap.
Do you realize USB-C is only a connector, right? The interface behind it might be USB 3.1, USB Power Delivery, etc. which is not due to the connector.
It also tends to make a device rather fucking worthless when your I/O is nothing but a handful of power plugs.
Please explain what you mean as this makes no sense.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
You just proved his point. It's a freaking connector. The interface behind the connector is what you are complaining about. If your beef is with Thunderbolt, that's with them not USB-C. That's like complaining that the optical disc (CDs, DVDs, Blu-ray) has terrible DRM and proprietary interfaces when the physical dimensions of the disc has nothing to with the content placed on the disc.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
through USB, hook me up!
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
USB C is proprietary. It's not open or free. It's just popular.
USB C is also crap. Cables that look identical but do different things, ports that look identical but do different things, chipsets that are invisible to users and advertised as "USB C" but do different things, cables that are often unsafe, devices (chargers) that are often unsafe, etc. But it's reversible this time!
USB Type-C basically inherited all the problems that USB had and made it worse by haphazardly introducing new capabilities and more power.
Honestly, I'd rather much prefered if the USB consortium got USB 2.0, made it really transparent, organized and standardized, forcing everyone that used it to either have all capabilities in it, or at the very least properly classify and name what they were including, and called THAT USB Type-C than the mess they made with it.
I'd happily trade all this mess for the priviledge of purchasing a smartphone knowing that it'll have MHL, OtG, and enough power to connect some 3 accessories in it rather than whatever USB Type-C brought. It just doubled down on stupidity and anti-consumer practices and left it at that.
Now, it just got more confusing than ever, it's less of a standard than it was with regular USB, consumers knows even less what their ports are capable of, manufacturers continue the shady practice of hiding what their implementation included or not, and it's just a continuation of the shitty mess that we had before - only worse because a whole ton of functionalities are being moved to the port (stuff like video interface, high voltage charging, reliance as a single port to be used in conjunction with a dongle, etc etc), with devices coming out that eliminated other standards for the sake of one that consumers don't know whether it'll work for some stuff or not, whether it's compatible with some dongles or not.
It's a hot mess, and unfortunately we cannot expect this crap to be solved in a long time. We already had the initial problem with badly made cables and badly made chargers that were killing devices, we had situation with reviewers having to test dozens of dongles with dozens of laptops to see if they work or not, we have all sorts of configurations regarding data throughput and support for other accessories... is it Thunderbolt compatible? Is it USB Type-C 3.1 rev A or B? Is data speed transfer full both ways, full one way and half another? Can you use it to charge? What functionalities of this dongle it supports? Can you use MHL through it? Can it drive a monitor? Do you need extra juice to make this dongle work? Can I use the charger that came with yout USB Type-C smartphone with my USB Type-C smartphone without it blowing up? Can I use another cable other than the one that came with the box for a data connection to my PC? Does my smartphone support the direct USB Type-C to USB Type-C connection that is coming up on new chargers even though my smartphone didn't come with a cable like that?
The list goes on and on and on, people have to dig through YouTube channels, blogs and reviews websites to know the answer, most of them are non-official and are still not there, and ever single new smartphone, laptop or whatever that comes out using the standard needs to go through this tedious and stupid process because the USB consortium could not define those.
No decent port that dares call itself a standard should need a Google engineer reviewing cables and connectors in his free time on Amazon to say if it's safe to use or not. Don't get me wrong, I'm very grateful to Benson Leung for doing it, but the fact that he needs to do it is ridiculous and makes USB Type-C laughable as a "standard".
It's this ridiculous scenario where you have to put down your money on very expensive consumer electronics not knowing what you are really gonna get. Which is fucking stupid and should be unnacceptable in this day and age. Yet here we are.
Much like Bluetooth 5 (which is another joke of a standard), I was hopeful for USB Type-C when it was first announced. I dunno if it's stupidity or corporate greed, but yet another thing ruined by these people who don't seem to get what standards are made for.
And it's specially sad because if USB Type-C was a decent standard, there is so much more that could be done with smartphones, tablets and laptops that I don't even like thinking too much about. Stuff like that Samsung Dex thing? It'd be someth
My experience with USB-C / Thunderbolt 3 has been quite a bit different; yeah there are hiccups but overall the net effect is quite positive.
I love being able to plug a single non-proprietary cord from laptop to docking station and gain multiple monitors, keyboard, mouse, gig ethernet, and power.
Yes, it's a very new technology, and there are growing pains during the early adopter period. Same thing can be said about any new hardware technology / standard.
FWIW I currently have a Nexus 6P, Dell XPS 15 (9550), a Toshiba Thunderbolt 3 dock, and a custom-built AMD Ryzen rig running Ubuntu, all using some type of USB-C connection.
USB-PD has worked near flawlessly. The Toshiba dock is currently failing to charge my laptop; a previous USB-C dock (Plugable triple monitor) charged the laptop fine but didn't have the bandwidth to drive both my monitors without stuttering. So yeah, that's probably some minor compatibility issue, but hopefully it'll get fixed w/ firmware update.
But the Toshiba dock drives both monitors over HDMI, and all other peripherals+network, perfectly. It's amazing to me that a single cable can accomplish all that, with devices from multiple different OEMs. And it will only get better.
I generally like USB-C but one thing that perplexes me is why there are no true USB-C hubs? I’m not talking about port adapters. I mean real hubs. You plug a USB-C cable into one port on your computer and the other end into a box with 4, 5, or 7 USB-C ports, not USB-A ports. That way you can connect all your peripherals and you only need one set of cables. Not a USB-C cable when you want to connect it to your computer and a USB-A cable when you need to plug it into your hub.
In a delayed "second system effect" they tried to literally put everything in there. Of course, this will never work well. This design was done by junior designers with a gross lack of experience and insight. (I don't care about their age. With a result this bad, they are "junior".)
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
What the hell are you talking about? USB-C is an industry standard that all PC makers are moving to implement. For years (and still now) the complaint about Apple is that they use their own proprietary connectors like Lightning. This one isn't theirs and you can blame the USB Implementer's Forum for the design choices. While Apple is member of the forum so are HP, NEC, Microsoft, and Intel.
Does any of this dismiss the fact that the entire point of TFS was to point out that USB-C (whether intentional or not) has become rather proprietary due to lack of reliable functionality? Let's try and and dispel with the bullshit semantics already. You can claim an interface does a lot of things, but at the end of the day if all it can reliably do is be a damn power cord, then it's about as much of a pain in the ass as any proprietary design.
I wish this kind of fucking courage would spell the demise of such stupidity, but chances are Apple's particular flavor of ignorant Greed will force them to double-down on proprietary interface bullshit to maximize revenue streams. Soon, every model will be devoid of tried and true interfaces, and we'll be left with "you're plugging it in wrong."
Please explain what you mean as Apple actually has to pay the non-profit USB Implementer's forum to use the tech (like every one else). Also you do realize, you can't plug-in USB-C cables wrong as the connector is not directional.
I'm well aware of the bidirectional design of USB-C. The "plugging it in wrong" joke was in reference to the "holding it wrong" excuse infamously made by Apple. I assumed that was fairly clear. Apparently not.
But let's look at what USB-C replaced: Apple magsafe power (Apple proprietary), USB A , Thunderbolt 1 and 2 (proprietary to Intel), HDMI (also proprietary). Only the power connector was one that Apple owned. So please explain to me how Apple "doubles down" on interfaces which they don't own and get revenue.
In order to re-affirm my point, I'd prefer to look at what USB-C has reliably replaced: A power cord.
Apple doubled down on this fact by removing all other proven (proprietary or not) interfaces from the latest iterations of hardware, making I/O efforts essentially worse than dealing with any proprietary design. In reference to the textbook definition, I'd say they're rather "exclusive" with this mentality. Unfortunately, the rest of the design market often tends to blindly follow the leader...
Moreover, USB3 ports are blue
Years of Mac USB-3 ports have never been blue, in fact I don't know I've even seen a computer where it was color coded. Maybe in the early days of USB 3.0 some PC's came that way... they do not now.
There are oodles of PC's at best buy with non-blue USB-3 ports. Must be yet another part of the USB "standard" that everyone ignores.
By contrast, let's take a USB-C to HDMI adapter.
And the USB-A to HDMI adaptors work more constantly? Nope. Most require USB3.0 and since you can't tell that from looking at the port generally...
That's a far cry from "my external drive is only moving data at 45MB/sec instead of 85MB/sec", because that's not "technically work[ing]", that's
"actually working".
Hmm... have you *used* USB2.0 and USB 3.0 drives? You are really comparing 30MB/s (real transfer speeds factoring in USB overhead) to USB 3.0 and 3.1 realistic speeds of 500MB/s and 1GB/s respectively...
It's not "actually working" if you have a TB or more of data to transfer and you end up on USB 2.0. It's "technically infeasible" as would be printing it all out on paper and typing it in elsewhere, even though that would be "technically working" also.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I'm over 40 and I think USB-C is definitely a net win. But I like drinking the tears of the smug, hipster Mc. Users who are butt hurt because Apple has continued to do what they've been doing since the first iMc.
Don't get me wrong, I think M$ does a shit job. But at least I'm able to upgrade the RAM & HD on a 3+ year old PC without buying a new one. Then there's the 2nd rate Mc. gfx cards in allegedly premium hardware. And storage space, spinning HD isn't an option, gotta get an SSD, on a PC I can get an .m2 SSD (or two) and a spinning HD for not that much money and have performance and oh so much more storage space.
I totally have seen the same issues you have (especially having to carefully suss out what would really connect my display port connection to a 4k monitor), but I do think USB-C will help in one way - because you can just buy a high-quality USB-C cable to connect to whatever monitor you like.
Sure it may not work at full res, if you didn't research carefully enough both sides of the equation. But at least it's one small step better than USB-A in that the cable is not as much of a question because each end will plug in correctly (not like having to think about a mini DP to full DP cable).
I honestly don't think hardware requirements will be any more confusing for people already than it is today. And heck, consumers already got an early taste of this on a macro level with HDMI itself, where you might have a TV that can do 3D and a blu-ray player than cannot... or high dynamic range, or even real 4K support there as well. Consumers have already been immersed in a world where the cables all look the same but you have to think hard about the hardware you use at either end.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Sure and that’s the fault of the USB standards group for doimg a horrendous job. Hardly seems to be Apple’s fault.
On a USB-A connector, the two square holes on the metal plug should be on the TOP side of the plug. (If the plug installs sideways rather than horizontally, I don't know.)
When I was four I stuck a sterling silver spoon in a socket.I remember. Blue flash. Found myself against the other side of the hall. My savvy mother kept that blackened spoon in the kitchen drawer for years. And sometimes I wound up eating my tomato soup with it when I was still quite little. I never played with an electric socket again. I have no fear of electricity, but I do have respect for it.
As for all the different plugs. The British ones are generally recognized safest, but I do confess they reflect a nanny-state mentality. And as I tend to be careful ... I am partial to the US's simple polarized fork. I have traveled quite a bit and have seen a lot of plugs. But the hidden issue here is the use of safety standards as a fig-leaf for good old trade protectionism. It is the classic end-run around trade agreements. Not to mention the ridiculous IT standards war over connections to peripherals.
And so now to the topic. I have a 5X, which I like fine. And in my personal experience the USB-C cable is great. Symmetrical so a final late-night hookup to charge just before sleep is a breeze. I was also sure to buy high-quality cables so I have had no issues. There is a Google Tech who dutifully tests them. Okay.. found him. Benson Leung But there is clearly a lot of corner-cutting crap.. I would love to see USB-C take over. So practical. Same at both ends with symmetrical connectors. I have a big box of USB alphabet soup (mini micro custom) that I would be happy to recycle. Not calling Goodwill yet, however.
"No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy
There are two independent people who do detailed authoritative analyses of USB C devices, mostly cables and power adapters: Nathan K and Benson Leung. Both have Google+ pages and do Amazon reviews. It is frightening how many (most) of these devices are not just non-compliant, but non-compliant in ways that may destroy your laptop/tablet/smartphone.
Doug Jensen
Instead of a bunch of TINY icons and research into safe cables, the fear of fire or burnout of expensive devices we need something that works as well as the old one.
USB 3/C was a mistake because only recently did every port go to USB3. It should have been tied to USB-C so it is clear and nobody would be plugging in high speed devices into USB 2 ports and getting upset with slow performance or lack of power. Thunderbolt needs a different plug because it requires a special cable AND a special connection that will take years (probably never) until every device has all ports be that capable. It was bad enough to put a little blue but to use TINY icons is worse.
Most stuff is fine with USB2. Leave it. Make a new plug anytime significant changes happen, USB2 took over ALL ports; if you can't do that then you need a new plug. Getting USB3 into USB2 could use a cheap simple SMALL adapter-- and you would clearly realize it is adapted and use the proper ports. No upset or confused users puzzled why blue matters. USB-C is the same mistakes amplified.
Prioritizing plugs under the premise of increased usability has resulted in missing the whole purpose in the 1st place.
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for a good USB-C hub.
I think USB-C cleans up the mess that was USB 3/3.1 have you seen the abomination that is micro USB3 ports? I'm really chomping at the bit to get my hands on a good USB-C android phone so I can start my transition to USB-C.
There seems to be a lot of apple haters on this thread, but you guys lashed yourselves to that beast. You could have not bought the USB-C devices, and waited for the transition to stabilize. Or drop $200 on a compatible computer with the HW features you want and run an OS that gives you some freedom.