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Almost Half of Tech Workers Worry About Losing Their Jobs Because of Ageism, Says Survey (siliconbeat.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from SiliconBeat: More than 40 percent of tech workers worry about losing their jobs because of age, a new survey shows. Jobs site Indeed also found that 18 percent of those who work in the tech industry worry "all the time" about losing their jobs because of ageism. The release of the survey Thursday comes amid other news about diversity -- or lack thereof -- in tech workplaces. Often when we report about diversity issues, readers wonder about older workers. The Indeed survey offers insight into the age of the tech workforce: It's young. Indeed concluded from surveying more than 1,000 respondents in September that the tech workforce is composed of about 46 percent millennials, with 36 percent of respondents saying the average employee age at their company is 31 to 35, and 17 percent saying that the average worker age at their company is 20 to 30. What about Generation X and baby boomers? Twenty-seven percent of respondents said the average age of employees at their company is 36 to 40, while 26 percent of respondents said the workers at their companies are 40 and older.
What do you expect when you came in in the 90s and 00s and shunned the older workforce, that you would be able to be an older worker later on?
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
Save as much as you can while you're young, when eating ramen and living in squalor is still cool. Then when you're older, worst case scenario is you lose your job and you're like, meh, didn't need it anyway. Best case scenario is you keep your job and glide into retirement driving expensive foreign cars and Teslas.
Posting anon,.....
Living in Australia with over 250 to 300k per year immigration, we're seeing an incredible drop / stagnation in wages. If you're not a seriously skilled professional (admitedly, a reasonable percentage of /. posters but certainly in no way, all nerds and geeks) then you're in potential trouble.
We've got more and more and more people, willing to work for significantly less money. These people are accustomed to a poorer quality of life back home, so when they come here and share a house with 5 other people, they think it's a palace, but sounds like torture to us.
Plus you've got people who simply made a couple of bad choices skills wise or job wise, wound up in a role and found themselves simply with antiquated skills. I'm one of these myself. Yeah it my fault but my government is NOT making it easy. Wage stagnation is going on seriously for the middle class across the world.
We're getting boned.
... I've some experience with this.
Competition for IT jobs being what it is, I sometimes had to make a persuasive argument for hiring/keeping me as opposed to a young'n.
In brief, it went like this:
While recent grads know HOW to do stuff that I don't, I know WHY we shouldn't be doing it.
Business is not a good place to be experimenting by being an early adopter.
In skill comparisons, I got my first computer (TRS-80) in 1978. I speak DOS, lived the digital revolution, saw Windows 3.0 fail -- to be fixed by 3.1 -- helped bring in the first network for Mobil Oil, and grew up with the Internet and social media.
I had the experience that entry-level peeps would get later, at the company's expense.
It worked for 30 years.
I've been retired for 3 years, so I don't know if that approach would work today.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
Get ready to change. There's lots of roles in IT that tend to prefer more experienced folks, the type of role where "Ya, I've seen that 5 times before, here's what we're going to do about it..." is the order of the day. Architectural roles of all stripes, infosec in general, etc. I've moved roles a few times in the last 25 years, (network monkey -> Mgmnt -> infosec -> infosec architecture) and I always find a new fun challenge every time I have.
You're probably in technology because you can adapt to change, not because you're scared of it. Embrace that.
Min
On the whole, I find that I prefer Slashdot posts to twitter ones because I don't get limited to 140 chars before
Give it a few more years... you will definitely start.
#DeleteChrome
I spent years working at a university rearch center. When I got there, they had no direction or plan regarding technology. One system at a time, I built the technology that they used for everything from directory services, storage servers, database, phone system, and even a security camera system. I used tons of open source systems - Linux, BSD, Postgres/PostGIS, Asterisk - and saved the institute hundreds of thousands of dollars. My reward? Shortly after my 50th birthday, and a few months before I finished my doctorate, they eliminated my position. As a bonus, it was also Christmas time too. Just lovely people. Two car payments, a mortgage, and a kid in college. While my wife and I were taking Christmas presents back and cancelling every possible optional expense we could, my former employer was hiring twenty-something business school types to fill seats and firing nearly everyone over 40.
Filth. And doing this on the governments nickel down!
I am nearly 50 and still in high demand. Most people my age just want to work 9 to 5 and go home. Unlike them I push myself to keep up with the latest tech and aggressively manage my career. The guys in their 20s wish they could do half of what I can accomplish. When hunting for jobs if some place rejects me due to age it probably was a lousy place to work in the first place. I only take jobs from firms that need someone who can just handle it all from Manager down to dev work.
You open up a different can of worm with population sets. Of course by skewing their employees younger, software companies can often make their employees more gender diverse faster than if they did not do that...
Older engineers are going to be more likely male. If you want to fix a "gender-diversity" problem in tech simply with new hires, you will likely find it to be pipeline limited. Interestingly, if you wanted to make faster progress than being pipeline limited, you can simply reduce the fraction of older engineers (who are more male dominated compared with the younger pool).
Sadly, that's two strikes against companies keeping older engineers, generally more expensive and generally more male.
Want to know the real reason older workers get canned? Because they're experienced, knowledgable -- and they know what they're really worth, expect to be paid that, and aren't going to knuckle under to bosses that try to bully them into accepting less. Younger workers? Not so much on all counts. They might have good book-learning, but not as much real-world experience, and they'll accept less pay because they're easily convinced -- or pressured -- to take less money and benefits. It's an inversion of the way things used to be, when a college education was nice and all, but experience ruled. The needle is starting to swing back the other way, though, but slowly, as the bean-counters and paper-shufflers (you know, the jackasses who only see numbers and have no clue about the actual work?) hold on for dear life to the mistaken idea of 'cheaper is better'. Sure, you can get some wet-behind-the-ears H1-B engineers from India, but more than half of them couldn't figure out how to design an AM crystal radio without consulting the Internet.
My last layoff was at age 57 from a pretty large tech company. The severance package was reasonably generous. Then, in addition, there was the "Promise not to sue us for age discrimination" add-on severance package, which was... pretty dang good. And, it came with about an inch thick stack of statistics about the ages of those laid off, which kind of established they were more than ready to defend themselves against any age discrimination suits.
I signed. It was a pretty good chunk of change (three months' pay, I think I recall) paid extension of benefits ... and there was an email from recruiting from another company in pretty much the same business in my inbox when I got home, which is where I'm working now.
I'm 61, writing code, and having fun. My advice:
First, find a company that lets you do what you want. In particular, find one that doesn't push you into management (unless that's what you really want). Many companies will push you in that direction, but unless you're really good at it, it's a dead end.
Second, don't get stuck on the same project forever. Being the old fogey who knows everything about that important legacy system isn't a good place to be when the old system is finally retired. It isn't enough to "keep up with new technology". Knowing it and doing at are different things and are judged differently.
Third, don't expect that your superior wisdom is enough. Be wise, but be productive, and help other people be productive.
I was the first one hired to start the "internet" dept of a printing/advertising company.
After several years, I was replaced with six guys in their early twenties.
Haven't even been able to get an interview since then. I've played all the tricks like shaving off the first 20 years experience from your resume, whatever. But when it comes to "when did you get a college degree" you can't lie, cuz the college is going to give the real year.
Keep in mind, I'm not saying I interviewed and didn't get hired. I can't even get a fucking interview nowdays.
You're not the only one, and you're right. I was earning a liveable wage three years ago, but then I was unemployed for 12 months and now earning an entry level salary after 15 years experience - simply out of desperation.
The major parties simply don't care. It's quite happy to throw it's own citizens under the wheels to keep it's economy going, just as easily as it has thrown it's own citizens under the wheel during wars in times past. Then we have a bought and paid for media telling us that immigration is good for the economy... yes, but for WHO'S economy? Certainly not my household economy....
It's a severance if you have to sign a form saying you're not going to sue in exchange for this extra pay they're giving you. And it is still relatively common when people are laid off (not fired for cause). If you don't plan to sue you may as well sign. Many places you get separate physical checks; the final paycheck, the severance check, the payout of unused vacation, and potentially a few others; sometimes the final pay goes into autometic deposit and the others are physical. I haven't seem them all combined into one check, because the severance check has a chance of begin rejected by the laid off employee.
Mid 50s here, and I work in C and embedded systems. So it's hard to find qualified candidates for the jobs, plus I'm good at it, and get a lot of recruiter spam. So I'm not worried about ageism for me. There are people that definitely are dismissive of older workers but I haven't bumped into any for some time.
People say old people don't keep up on the skills, but that will apply to everyone. The problem is not about age or skills, it's about cost. If you're 30 you're NOT old, but even if you know 50 programming language you're still going to be compared to the cheaper worker who only knows the one language that the company wants. Those are dumb companies to be sure, they value quantity over quality, so maybe you're better off not getting a job at those places.
An even bigger concern than ageism, especially for those with moderate skills, is outsourced. No matter what your age in the US, they can find someone that costs less overseas. Not good workers mind you, but if they can hire 5 incompetent people for the price of one qualified person then many companies will do that. And there are countries where it is routine for the manager to lie our their asses about how awesome their workers are and how they can do anything you can possibly ask. Being young won't protect you there.
Cisco gave me three years pay with full benefits (health care coverage, 401k, and stock vesting). Severance packages still exist. It was an "early retirement" vs a "layoff" or "termination" ...for whatever that is worth. They paid us to go away.
To be honest? I spent my WHOLE working career worrying about losing job X, Y or Z -- and have lost a few jobs due to the company I worked for filing bankruptcy and shutting down, as well as a layoff and a huge pay cut and threatened layoff at another one. I finally believe I found employment with a company that's not only successful, but makes smart investments in buying other successful small businesses and merging with them. (That, in turn, increases their need for the I.T. support I provide them along with the small, close-knit group of co-workers in my department.)
I don't earn the kind of pay that some of my peers keep telling me I'm "worth", given my number of years of experience. BUT, they do give regular raises as well as annual bonuses and they're flexible with such things as allowing me to work from home on days when I can see that's the most efficient option. I really feel like some of my friends jumped on jobs because of the fat paychecks offered, only to find out that pay rate was only offered because management wasn't very realistic about what they could really afford long-term. As soon as the economy had a down-turn, they were in the unemployment line. No interest in trying to find ways to keep them employed with a few cut hours or other options.
As I've gotten older, I've gotten better about appreciating the "slow and steady wins the race" adage. If I don't at least have the option to stay employed where I'm at through retirement, I believe it will most likely be my own fault (getting bored or burnt out and slacking off too much, maybe?). Anything's possible, but for once, I'm not constantly worried about losing this job.
without the constant influx of cheap labor from overseas they couldn't indulge in ageism.
Something else I notice that bothers me too though, the old guys at my place are usually fervently right wing, anti-government regulation and anti-Union except for this one thing. In this one thing they want the government to step on and protect workers rights. As someone that got screwed over a lot when he was young (right two work state and all that) that hypocrisy really pisses me off.
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Here the other side. We had difficulty finding people. We did not want people who just left school, but where a bit more mature.
So we looked for older people from 55 and up. The fact that we would get extra money fro; the government in Belgium was a nice plus, but not the deciding factor.
Worst. Decision. Evar. It was almost impossible to get them to do anything they already knew. Let alone learn them anything new. Just not flexible enough and easily double the time to be somewhat productive (a year, instead of standard 6 months). And we really tried over several years. At a certain moment you just give up. They where just too expensive, even if they got the same pay as others.
The plus side? They are less sick on Monday and Friday. Less moaning about stuff. Much less drama. Yet the thing that remained was that learning new things was hard. Be it procedures or skills.
I now also see it with myself. I know that if I got fired now, getting a new job would be near to impossible. Too set in my ways, even if I WANT to be flexible and WANT to learn, it will be extremely hard if not impossible. Because I would feel as if they do not want to use my expertise.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Fortunately you're not American, so you won't be tarred as a racist just for expressing that sentiment.
For example, Leidos, a large government IT contracting firm, recently announced it's 2018 benefits package. It was noted that those employees with 10+ and 20+ years of service will now be losing 3-4 vacation/sick/PTO days and a few even more.
Essentially, corporations view older longer term employees not as notable for their loyalty, but as a burden. Why pay more, and give more vacation time to senior employees when we can hire someone fresh out of college or import an H1B Visa holder and pay them much less and give them half the vacation time.
Meanwhile, Leidos executive compensation went from $2 mil, $2mil, $4 mil, $7 mil, $14 mil, and now $35 mil. The CEO went from like $2 million to $7 million, to $14 million in compensation. Essentially, what we have is a group of elite who simply game the system to move the wealth and benefits of the laborers to their own pockets.
It's disgusting... but I doubt we'll see any change until we bring back the proverbial guillotine - granted it may be molecular disruption chambers in 2140.
Over 60 and in tech pre-sales. I show up in a room of 20 something IT folks and they act surprised when I not only know what they're doing in dev/ops but can tell them how they got where they are and how to get where they need to go. Occasionally, I have to remind them I've seen many of the wrong turns and stupid (failed) projects first-hand and can add some perspective to their own plans. Sadly, I'm acutely aware of the view of age and experience in the industry at large and have experienced firsthand HR moves where companies carefully carve out the over-50 crowd for "HR actions" while preemptively claiming no age bias by tossing in a few younger folks in the mix. I personally know *many* folks in my same age bracket that simply can't find any work in the field, despite having all relevant certifications and experience. Companies are hurting themselves by their blind HR policies that target age as a negative attribute. "The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas." -- Carl Sagan
If you're burning the candle at both ends at age 54 might that be problematic? Maybe some learning about the finite nature of life would serve you better than tech skills. Maybe you're one of those rarities for whom obsessive work is truly better - it's possible. I have 11 years on you, and I promise that you won't get that overtime back, and I'd urge you to examine your decision on how to use your time.
Just the washing instructions on life's rich tapestry
I'm 42, and although I haven't knowingly experienced ageism, I foresee a day in the future when I draw the short straw, get laid off and become another statistic in this "can't get hired past 45" environment. Every other real profession values experience, and in IT and development it seems like it's being actively ignored lately in the pursuit of new and shiny. Doctors don't have this problem...they can practice as long as they're able. Professors can do the same, but when you suggest that IT people have a similar career they look at you like you have 2 heads.
I admit that there are _plenty_ of older workers who feel that they don't need to keep current in IT, or that their knowledge as it is today will continue to be relevant throughout their career. I know that's not the case and spend a large amount of time both inside and outside work keeping up to date. The problem is that potential employers paint all older workers with the same brush: "They can't learn, they're too expensive, they want too much time off, ..."
I guess the problem is that IT and development are fields where things are constantly changing, and you need to keep learning at the same pace you were when you started, throughout your career. Yes, we have lives outside of work, we can't work 100 hour weeks, we don't want to live in the office, and we have more obligations than the average 25 year old. But, some of us have valuable experience that will prevent the younger workers from going down a dead end and redoing all that work. Personally, I still really enjoy the technical aspect of my job. Management isn't for everyone, and companies should recognize that...that's usually where they stuff the older burnt-out IT workers.
I have no idea how to solve this either. Silicon Valley worships youth and cheap labor. I would love to go work for AWS or Microsoft doing cloudy stuff, but I'm not going to abandon my family for a job. I know way too many IT folks who are on their second or third marriage or are just perpetually alone because they're constantly trying to impress their employer. I think my advice would be to be a generalist who's willing to change direction as needed, learn constantly, live within your means so you're not the guy begging for raises every year, and find an employer that has figured out that a healthy mix of youth and experience works best.