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Jimmy Wales' WikiTribune is Already Biased (theoutline.com)

Earlier this year, Jimmy Wales, the founder of Wikipedia, said he would be launching a neutral news service with "no other agenda than this: the ultimate arbiter of the truth is the facts of reality." On Monday, a pilot version of WikiTribune went live. Adrianne Jeffries of The Outline argues that WikiTribune is already doing things that it said it wouldn't: As of this writing, WikiTribune's homepage featured a hodgepodge of news aggregation. The "editor's choice" module points to a news roundup that includes Paul Manafort's indictment, the Catalonian independence movement. [...] These stories are all sourced to fairly mainstream news outlets, including some that are on Wikipedia's preferred sources list such as CNN and Reuters, and some that are not, such as Politifact and "Spanish media." I admire what Wales is trying to do here. [...] But WikiTribune is bullshit. It's not new -- it is the same kind of news aggregation that exists all over the web. It is not better -- comparable summarizing and linking can be found on many websites, while original reporting of those same stories, often supplemented by linking to other reporting, can be found at CNN, Reuters, The New York Times, and the BBC, which WikiTribune uses as its primary sources. And finally, and most importantly, it is not neutral. The existence of the "Editor's choice" module, which highlights some stories over others, is not neutral; neither is the "Good reads" section, which does the same thing. The Manafort story includes a section, "Highlights from the indictment," which is not neutral -- someone had to decide which parts of the indictment were more significant than others. There is no such thing as an objective highlight. It is true that the wording of the story does not include adjectives, except when it quotes from the indictment ("lavish lifestyle," "false and misleading statements"), but this is standard newswriting, as one would get from the AP or the New York Times.

22 of 164 comments (clear)

  1. CNN? by msauve · · Score: 2, Insightful

    CNN hasn't been news for a long, long time. It's all editorial punditry about the news, which seems to be the only way they can find to fill a 24 hour channel. (same with Fox and MSNBC, and most others).

    --
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    1. Re:CNN? by XXongo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Crying about the Trump indictments doesn't make them less than real, sorry snowflake.

      Uh, there is no Trump indictment.

      There was an indictment of some people who worked on Trump's campaign-- most notably his former campaign manager. But the indictment was for stuff that they did before that-- 2008 to 2014, to be specific.

      You need to start reading an unbiased news source. Try this one: http://www.politifact.com/trut...

    2. Re:CNN? by Ksevio · · Score: 3, Funny

      Someone should tell Trump - he seems to think Clinton has an administration

    3. Re:CNN? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Which person are you talking about?
      Paul Manifort was Trump's campaign manager.
      George Papadopoulos was Trump's foreign policy advisor.
      Rick Gates is a long-time business partner of Manifort for about 10 years. He worked as an aide to Manifort on the campaign.

      All have Russian government connections. Papdopoulos pled guilty to lying to the FBI about those connections.
      Manifort has had to register as a foreign agent of the Russian government.

      As much as Trump, the Russian government and Trump's supporters scorn the investigation,
      this is a serious scandal.

    4. Re: CNN? by sound+vision · · Score: 2

      What ruins my faith in government is when they *don't* prosecute financial crimes, which happens plenty. Manafort, although he had been under investigation for years, seemed to be avoiding charges until Mueller stepped in. If they can get information from him that will help take down more of his criminal network, that's a-OK by me. Even - especially - if some of them hold office in our government. I guess your concerns lie elsewhere.

  2. Case not proven by XXongo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "There is no such thing as an objective highlight."

    The article makes a bold assertion that WikiTribune is not objective, but fails to support the assertion with evidence.

    The quote here is an input assumption: the writer starts out with the assumption that any highlights can't be objective, and from that assumption decides that therefore the WikiTribune must be biased.

    That's probably true. But the article doesn't make the case.

    1. Re:Case not proven by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's a fairly standard attack used on all media. Set an impossibly high standard and berate them for not meeting it.

      People with half a brain look for a more detailed criticism than "humans are involved, so it must be biased" and "they made one mistake, therefore everything they ever did or said is fake news". The goal is to prime people to accept alternative facts.

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    2. Re:Case not proven by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm of the opinion that people who claim to be "unbiased" are not really all the unbiased. Personally, I would accept bias in news if it was up front about it.

      Of course, if you don't see your own bias (because, you've told the lie that you're unbiased so many times), you'll simply reject any notion that you are biased.

      There is no such thing as unbiased news. Even the most evenly written piece has its bias where it was placed in relation to other material; Front page news on Pg 14 below the fold. Which is why everyone SHOULD be getting their news from as many sources as possible, to avoid their own echo chamber.

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    3. Re:Case not proven by drew_kime · · Score: 4, Informative

      30+ years ago, news organizations mostly stuck with *objectively reporting the news* rather than subtly leaving out certain parts of the story again and again and again to advance a chosen agenda, or constantly running rabid "opinion" pieces bordering on batshit-crazy levels of outrage.

      See Yellow Journalism to understand that's not true at all. In particular, William Randolph Hearst is widely credited with helping to start a war to sell papers.

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    4. Re:Case not proven by AmiMoJo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There used to be a solution to this problem. News outlets would post factual information and then a separate opinion piece offering interesting views, often multiple opposing ones.

      What we have now are a few purely factual outlets like the BBC and NHK, and a large number of purely opinion outlets. Notice how the purely factual ones are the ones that are somewhat insulated from commercial considerations.

      So reading as many sources as possible alone is not enough. What you need are some purely factual ones, plus some of the more serious opinion ones to help burst your bubble.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:Case not proven by rickb928 · · Score: 2

      "30+ years ago, news organizations mostly stuck with *objectively reporting the news"

      Somehow this ignores the Reagan era. For my childhood and adulthood, spanning more than 40+ years now, all I recall of newspapers is the perfunctory 'objective' reporting mixed in with opinion, bias, and slant. Most major metropolitan newspapers were not merely legendary for their activism, they were unapologetic and celebrated for it.

      At least in the US. My memories of this are clear back to 1971, when my American History teacher showed us examples from all viewpoints, and from newspapers as far back as pre-Civil War. But one man's bias is another's defense of truth, justice, and the American Way.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    6. Re:Case not proven by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      To be clear I'm not tolerating or excusing poor journalism, I'm saying that people who like to alternative facts do so by making people think that all news media are unreliable all the time, and so random blog posts by "ordinary people" and alt-news outlets are just as worthy of their attention.

      They don't even need to ask people to trust the fake news, just being exposed to it regularly is enough.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    7. Re:Case not proven by DRJlaw · · Score: 2

      the prediction of Hillary's coronation with absolute certainty is a perfect example

      Citation needed. Reporting that she was nominally ahead in polls with a 3% margin of error is not "absolute certainty" in any statistician's book, and your failure to understand polling statistics is your own problem.

    8. Re:Case not proven by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Random coin flips, would be "unbiased" politically, yes. However, IMHO the case of putting Page one material on Page 14 is a bias, no matter which way it goes.

      Photo Editing can be biased. https://i.pinimg.com/originals...

      It all depends on the narrative you're trying to portray.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  3. Lying with facts is a well-known art by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I always had a double filter: everything I said had to be understood-correct by me, and also complete and correctly represented to the expected concerns of the listening party. I never really learned to lie, and instead had explained people's behavior as a pseudo-mathematical equation balancing their wants and needs, and identified that folks are generally tended to blame themselves for bad outcomes if they understand the likelihood going into it.

    That is to say: if you bullshit people and they don't like how things turn out, they stop liking you; if you're honest with people, they'll tend to do things even if it's understood it will probably turn out bad for them, and then blame themselves when it turns out bad for them and good for you. In the latter case, they're happy to work with you again.

    People fight wars for the simple freedom of choice. I suppose they appreciate being given its full exercise.

    What you really need to do is give people a sense that what they're doing is somehow interesting to them. People are happy to take on hardship for things like philosophical ideals--which is exactly what charity is.

    It's that "complete and correctly represented to the expectations and concerns of the listening party" bit that's key, though.

    You can omit facts. You can omit facts which would raise concern and objection. This is fine so long as you don't omit facts which actually have material effect on the outcome. That someone doesn't understand things well enough to accurately evaluate some omitted facts is immaterial; what matters is that the omitted facts aren't cause for their concern when correctly evaluated.

    There are journalists out there who make a pretty good career out of presenting a lot of factual information, organizing it, and giving an interpretation, while omitting other facts. Their interpretation is incorrect or incomplete: they tell people what to think, and so they tell people the truth and paint a lie.

    That's the real problem: you can lie to people without speaking any untruth.

    Any selection of news will necessarily cultivate certain facts in a certain way, and omit other facts. Just the selection of subject matter creates political bias. The closest you can get to an unbiased news source is to intentionally create an extreme bias: ground everything out to neutral. Take the popular view, the emotion and perspective gaining the most momentum in the media, and pick it apart, factually. Drag it down to the least-concern; cut down all the outrage and the excitement; turn it from the sensational to the mundane.

    The underwear bomber? He had PETN. It requires a bulky, compressive detonator to produce an explosion. I can't recall at the moment, but I believe it has low volume and high crack--it will destroy whatever you use it on, thus put a hole in a plane, but won't create a big explosion--although I may be confusing this with semtex. A block of PETN without an impossible-to-hide detonator will create a light show and a spectacular display of incompetence, nothing more.

    Getting that thing on the plane was never a concern. It's not exactly dangerous.

    In an atmosphere of media panic, these are the facts which strip the bias. This is an extremely-biased analysis; it only modifies the general tone with a counterweight, though. Instead of talking up some opposing point, it counterpoints everything exciting and frightening in the original. It turns the sensational into the mundane.

    That is the injection you need to promote a more-rational media: bring people back down to the ground, where they can think. Put them in a place where they can work out whether to reject your conclusions. Cut away the distortion of emotion. Change the subject from what happened to what to do about it, or how very infrequently this happens.

    Let the media set the stage by showing what people get excited about; then give them a reason to calm down and think.

    Anything else is just putting your views against their views, leaving you free to select what facts to provide and which to leave out of the discussion.

  4. Opinion != bias. by mjwx · · Score: 4, Informative

    Sigh, it seems that a lot of people want to change the meaning of the word bias to "He said something I dont like and I'm butt hurt".

    Having an opinion column in a news publication is not bias, bias in a news publication is deliberately skewing the facts, omitting relevant information, adding falsifications or other means to distort facts to suit your point of view. The point is, its deliberate and hidden al a Fox News, the Daily Mail or Russia Today. Unbiased news is presenting the facts and allowing the audience to make their own inferences.

    Now reputable news organisations have opinion columns, but these are clearly marked as opinion. With many news agencies, the entire theme of the site changes to make it clear they are not presenting facts, but opinions... And there is nothing wrong with having opinion columns as long as they are clearly marked as such. Issues with bias in news start to occur when opinion is dressed up to masquerade as news.

    This article is pretty much non-news, we cant even call it fake news its such a non event. Why, well the magical combination of "Wales", "Wiki" and "Bias" are the perfect thing to drag unwitting eyeballs to this site practically no-one has ever heard of. It was set up last year by some random dude who wanted to make a political blog, claiming to be biased but after about 2 minutes of reading it, it's clearly anti-Trump (and I can say that as someone who thinks Trump is the worst thing to happen to a country, worse than Brexit) and ladies and gents, let me save your eyeballs, the sites layout and colour scheme is atrocious. Its like Geocities for Web 2.0 and its an exclusively mobile setup, so looks even worse on a 24" 4K monitor.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    1. Re:Opinion != bias. by pr0nbot · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Geniune question: is being anti-Trump a biased position? What would he have to do for it to stop being bias, and simply be the reasonable position given the facts?

      Should one have to scrape around for some positive story about Trump, to give an artificial semblance of balance?

      If I write about Hitler gassing children, should I devote equal space to, say, the notion that he was a vegetarian for animal rights reasons, in an attempt at balance?

  5. Born to be biased by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Transparent bias is always better than lip-service to some mythical notion that journalism is supposed to be totally objective.

    There is no such thing as unbiased news, and news organizations that attempt to portray themselves as such should be most suspect ("Fair and Balanced!")

    Truth is always biased.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  6. Re:Already sunk by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 4, Insightful

    CNN alone gets over 6 million hits for fake news on google. To put this in comparison one of the few notable right wing sites, Breitbart has fewer than 700,000. Even with partisan politics in play that is a huge disparity.

    Alternatively, CNN is having a lot of people pushing the story that it is fake news, in the same way a lot of people pushing the story that there is a war on Christmas. Brietbart has not many people pushing the story that it is fake news, in the same way not many people are pushing the story that was a war on Nazis.

    In case you missed the metaphor, a lot of people online bitching about something is not a good indicator that it is real, and in some cases implies quite the opposite.

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  7. jimmy and catalan's wikipedia by Henequencito · · Score: 3

    it is well known that jimbo is really good friends with Goma, one of the catalan wiki promoters, which accounts for the hardly neutral treatment of catalonia political crisis on the tribune.

  8. As Stephen Colbert once said by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    reality has a well known liberal bias.

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  9. Only looked certain by XXongo · · Score: 4, Informative

    Hillary's election was basically certain based on the data available.

    Actually, it wasn't "basically certain"-- the best analysis, by fivethirtyeight, based on the polling numbers and error margins gave her roughly 70% chance of winning. Here's the thing: one time in four, a 25% chance happens.

    The polls turned out to be a bad tool.

    If you paid attention to the error margins, the polls weren't as bad as they look in retrospect. Basically, Hillary's margin of victory was roughly equal to the error margin in the polls. People just ignored that-- they only looked at the final number, not the error

    That doesn't make reporting on those polls biased. It just makes them incorrect.

    There was a bias in reporting, though-- reporters took the polls and listened to the ones that agreed most with their preconceptions, and ignore the margins of error.