Slashdot Mirror


Detroit's Marginalized Communities Are Building Their Own Internet (vice.com)

An anonymous reader writes: Motherboard has a report that discusses how some of Detroit's communities are building their own internet to help close the gap between the roughly 60 percent of Detroiters who have internet and 40 percent who don't. From the report: "[Diana Nucera, director of the Detroit Community Technology Project] is part of a growing cohort of Detroiters who have started a grassroots movement to close that gap, by building the internet themselves. It's a coalition of community members and multiple Detroit nonprofits. They're starting with three underserved neighborhoods, installing high speed internet that beams shared gigabit connections from an antenna on top of the tallest building on the street, and into the homes of people who have long gone without. They call it the Equitable Internet Initiative. The issue isn't only cost, though it is prohibitive for many Detroiters, but also infrastructure. Because of Detroit's economic woes, many Big Telecom companies haven't thought it worthwhile to invest in expanding their network to these communities. The city is filled with dark fiber optic cable that's not connected to any homes or businesses -- relics from more optimistic days.

Residents who can't afford internet, are on some kind of federal or city subsidy like food stamps, and students are prioritized for the Initiative, Nucera told me. The whole effort started last summer with enlisting digital stewards, locals from each neighborhood who were interested in working for the nonprofit coalition, doing everything from spreading the word, to teaching digital literacy, to installing routers and pulling fiber. Many of these stewards started out with little or no tech expertise, but after a 20-week-long training period, they've become experts able to install, troubleshoot, and maintain a network from end to end. They're also aiming to spread digital literacy, so people can truly own the network themselves."

70 of 125 comments (clear)

  1. No they're not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They're building access to the Internet. That's totally different.

    1. Re:No they're not by DickBreath · · Score: 1

      > They're building access to the Internet.

      If Detroit builds access to the internet as well as it built machines to access roads, then they are in trouble.

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
    2. Re:No they're not by Falconnan · · Score: 1

      Given that Detroit essentially enabled the economic success of America's best years following WWII, your statement is questionable at best. However, I will admit, if you limit that statement to the 1970s and 1980s, you are utterly correct.

  2. With blackjack and hookers! by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

    In fact, forget the internet!

  3. I live near Detroit by Puls4r · · Score: 4, Informative

    And I don't have broadband. 1 mile from Comcast, but they $5k to extend. Frontier won't serve me DSL, because I'm too far from whatever. Satellite? Yeah right. I CAN pay $70 a month for 1.5 Mb MAX, which I signed up for and usually got like 250k. So now I use a verizon hotspot that maxes out after 4 days (15Gb) then drops to .6k..... which is better than nothing. And there isn't a damn thing I can do, but if you listen to the government I'm 'Served'. LOL.

    1. Re: I live near Detroit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I am literally in the same situation 2/10 of a mile away from houses with cable. They will not budge. Unless a new neighborhood that destroys every sign of life and stacks houses on top of each other is built, I will likely just be screwed. I block ads, do QOS, and stay away from "smart anything" that uses bandwidth.

    2. Re:I live near Detroit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's chicken feed. $20K to renovate a kitchen or $5 K for broadband. Hmmm. It's a no brainer. I can cook with a microwave and hotplate. I'll take the broadband for $5K.

    3. Re:I live near Detroit by mishehu · · Score: 2

      Hell, $5000 is chump change. I'm about that distance from the nearest fiber run, and the *best* quote I can get for 10 mbps fiber (symmetric) from Windstream is $700+ per month with a 3 year contract. That's no $5000 build-out charge. I'd pay $5000 in a heartbeat to get the connectivity if that's all it took for me.

    4. Re:I live near Detroit by link-error · · Score: 1

          15Gb in 4 days? You shouldn't watch so much video from your home connection. Does AT&T have service there?
      "GoPhone customer. Starting today, AT&T GoPhone customers can get unlimited data for only $60 a month after they sign up for AutoPay"
      I tether off my go-phone wifi hotspot no problem. http://about.att.com/story/att...

      --
      -Unresolved symbol? Byte me!
    5. Re:I live near Detroit by SScorpio · · Score: 1

      How far away are your neighbors? Could you put up a tower to have mostly clear line of sight and divvy that up to 10 $70/month gigabit connections?

    6. Re:I live near Detroit by mishehu · · Score: 1

      The thought has cross my mind. There are numerous issues though. The terrain here is hilly-borderline-mountainous. I'd be looking at having to put anywhere from a 50 foot to a 120 foot tower to get good coverage on enough neighbors to make it functional, which means that I'd be looking at a rather large capital expenditure to do so. The $700/mo figure is for 10mbps, and 20mbps was around $900/mo - what, I'm going to divvy that up to 1mbps per customer when the guy who can't run his existing ubnt is promising (but not delivering) 3mbps for $60/mo? I won't be able to charge $70 to even remotely break even - it would probably be more on the order of $125 to break even this side of 5 years. And I don't have the capital funds to build the tower in the first place. Now to muddy the waters a bit, there are two other happenings occurring in our area: one is that a cookie-cutter McMansion neighborhood with houses on 1/4 acre lots is going up right as we speak and has been so for the past year or two, and will come within 2 1/2 to 3 miles of my location. Starting price is $500,000 which for my area is a bit on the pricey side. The other development is that our electric coop has been having talks recently with GVTC about some sort of a partnership, as the coop serves a lot of areas where the options for internet access are even worse than where I'm at. If that's on the horizon as well, it wouldn't make sense to make this capital expenditure that I'd end up having to eat big time... So I'm rather stuck for now.

    7. Re:I live near Detroit by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      And there isn't a damn thing I can do, but if you listen to the government I'm 'Served'.

      Yes, you are. You have enough bandwidth for access to information. I don't want my government worrying if you can stream 4k movies. If you want more, pay for it.

    8. Re:I live near Detroit by SScorpio · · Score: 1

      Sorry completely miss read that as 10Gb for some reason. Definitely not worth it for 10Mb.

      I hope your situation improves sometime.

    9. Re:I live near Detroit by mishehu · · Score: 1

      Me too. You have no idea how tedious it is to train a parrot to repeat back a packet. (It's a little modification to rfc2549 that I'm working on. This one includes redundancy in case the avian carrier drops the packet itself...)

  4. What a fucking surprise by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 2, Informative

    Guess which political party has run Detroit since January 2, 1962?

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    1. Re:What a fucking surprise by CaptainDork · · Score: 1, Funny

      Such fun.

      Guess which letter Detroit has started with since July 24th, 1701?

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    2. Re:What a fucking surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Guess which political party destroyed manufacturing

      Clinton signed NAFTA and granted MFN status to China.

    3. Re:What a fucking surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      When the Dims have destroyed an area, they move to another one where proper humans live and bring their political diseases and pollution with them to destroy that one too.

    4. Re:What a fucking surprise by CaptainDork · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The key decision-makers – major shareholders in General Motors, Ford, Chrysler, etc, and the boards of directors they selected – made many disastrous decisions.

      They failed in competition with European and Japanese automobile capitalists and so lost market share to them.

      They responded too slowly and inadequately to the need to develop new fuel-saving technologies.

      And, perhaps most tellingly, they responded to their own failures by deciding to move production out of Detroit so they could pay other workers lower wages.

      Detroit wasn't about politics. It was about capitalism, and it's all around us today.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    5. Re:What a fucking surprise by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Boy are you in for a surprise when you find out about Coleman Young, his 20 years as mayor, and what he did to the middle class. He created the Detroit of today.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    6. Re:What a fucking surprise by CaptainDork · · Score: 4, Informative

      My tripwires will not let me go to that site, but seriously? 20 years?

      You think Detroit was destroyed in the last 20 years?

      First, there was decentralization. Strikes, inspired by union negotiations and a refusal by blacks and whites to work side by side, were halting progress, according to "Detroit, Race and Uneven Development," co-written by Joe T. Darden. Factories were built in the suburbs and in neighboring states so that if there was a protest in one factory, work could still continue elsewhere. But as the factories spread out, so too did the job opportunities.

      When the industry then experimented with automation, replacing assembly-line jobs with machinery, tens of thousands of jobs were lost. The industry shrank even more during the energy crisis in the 1970s and the economic recession in the 1980s. And foreign competition caused profits to plummet.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    7. Re:What a fucking surprise by JimSadler · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When American auto companies were strong and becoming huge we had a very conservative government. Then a slight breeze came up and our auto companies learned that Europe and japan could really produce good cars and that put Detroit into decline. It took democrats to try to hold a messed up city together. The real problem was allowing such a concentration of industry in the first place. Brooklyn N.Y. is the same. New York played every game in the world to attract labor to a vibrant N.Y.. Then change came along and all those employees were in big trouble. Jobs were eliminated and paid less due to inflation and state taxes raised to try to keep the city and state alive. If the great expansion had been limited the great crashes and suffering would not have befell Brooklyn and NYC.. Look at the troubles that plague California. California has boomed for many decades. Now the underlying problems surface and suffering and chaos abound. When you hear the political folks screaming about getting more growth stop and think that growth may be your worst enemy.

    8. Re:What a fucking surprise by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      It's amazing to watch US political debates. It's like a flock of sheep bickering over which wolf is better as a shepherd because at least he eats fewer of them instead of realizing that killing both is what is actually in their interest.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    9. Re:What a fucking surprise by CrashNBrn · · Score: 1

      We don't care about it.

    10. Re:What a fucking surprise by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 3, Informative

      Coleman Young left office in 1994. He was a "Black Power" far left radical. He drove business from Detroit and told them good riddance. You don't know history, I see.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    11. Re:What a fucking surprise by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      You mean it used to be Retroit before?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    12. Re:What a fucking surprise by SScorpio · · Score: 1

      Detroit was in decline way before Japanese cars starting being good. A huge impact to the decline was the 1967 race riots which drove anyone who could afford it out of the city to the suburbs of Dearborn and Livonia.

      This caused a major revenue crunch as the tax base evaporated. Coleman Young then became mayor in 1974 and stayed in power for 20 years. This brought about mass corruption that is still being cleaned up 20 years later.

    13. Re:What a fucking surprise by CaptainDork · · Score: 2

      I don't need to know history.

      I need to Google it. Plus, I lived it.

      Coleman Young, his 20 years as mayor, and what he did to the middle class. He created the Detroit of today.

      1994 - 20 = 1974.

      You're so full of shit, you didn't bother Googling.

      I'm tired of you, and you are dismissed.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    14. Re:What a fucking surprise by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      You have access to Google.

      What does it say?

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    15. Re:What a fucking surprise by JimSadler · · Score: 1

      You fail to consider that when race riots break out it is usually because race riots need to break out. When a system crushes people there are rebellions. Obviously people of color in Detroit were not being well treated. European cars were making a splash in 1967 before the Japanese cars had a meaningful market share. Volkswagon in particular was selling the beetles in ever increasing numbers. Smaller models were replacing the large cars as gasoline was beginning to be a non trivial expense.

    16. Re:What a fucking surprise by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      It says: "Scroll down and click “I agree” when you’re ready to continue to Search, or explore other options on this page."

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    17. Re:What a fucking surprise by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Ezekiel 23:20

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    18. Re:What a fucking surprise by SScorpio · · Score: 1

      It's true, those issues weren't just Detroit. Look at other major US cities in the same time period. This was just over three years after the civil rights bill was passed that ended segregation and the US was still figuring everything out.

      New York was horrible in the 80s and had a comeback. Detroit, on the other hand, stunned the nation. The riots lead to white flight which decimated the city. Before the riots, Detroit's downtown looked like any other city. After the decline things got worse and worse until the 80s/90s where the current stereotypes of Detroit come from.

    19. Re:What a fucking surprise by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Uh...huh? Coleman Young ruined Detroit during his term from 1974-1994. The shithole it is today is due to his policies. By the way, stop "Googling", Google clearly turned evil. Moreover if you're going to verb it, it doesn't take a capital letter.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  5. That sucks. Poles? How long have you lived there? by raymorris · · Score: 2

    That really sucks, man. What a pain. I'm guessing that means there's not a run of utility poles for that mile between you and where the cable company has service? If they have to deal with land easements or digging, $5,000 is about right, possibly a bit low depending on the details.

    I'm curious how long you've lived there. For the last 15 years, internet service has been something I looked at carefully before choosing a place to live. The last time I moved, I made sure I was in an area where cable competes with fiber ( Frontier Fios).

  6. Re:Oh by sycodon · · Score: 1

    More like the Detroit government because they probably granted some kind of monopoly to some cable company.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  7. A Damn Sick Shame by JimSadler · · Score: 1

    If cable companies will not serve portions of an area why allow them to be in the area to begin with? You can also believe that this self help group will, one way or another, feel the weight of a political system that is inherently corrupt.

    1. Re: A Damn Sick Shame by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Because they come out of my pocket.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:A Damn Sick Shame by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      If cable companies will not serve portions of an area why allow them to be in the area to begin with?

      Because it's them or nothing? Ask Google how easy it is to come in and make a profit selling broadband.

    3. Re:A Damn Sick Shame by JimSadler · · Score: 1

      Making a profit is not normally easy in any enterprise. What we needed from day one was a fist full of cables to every home that are owned by competing companies. And we still have Comcast with an abomination of customer service as our only cable option. It is so weird. The cable companies are losing their customers and yet they still offer really rotten customer service. It is as if they don't even try to compete at all.

  8. What's keeping the ISPs by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Interesting

    from descending on this little town and crushing this? Just wondering. There's been podunk towns in the middle of nowhere who suggested doing muni-broadband and were shut down by a gaggle of lawyers chanting some nonsense about free enterprise and it not being fair they have to compete with government.

    Speaking of which, anyone else find it funny that the same folks who tell you gov't can't do anything right also tell you gov't can't be allowed to compete with private business because it would be unfair? What are they afraid of, the gov't's just gonna fail anyway, right?

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:What's keeping the ISPs by Miles_O'Toole · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You shouldn't be logical around right wing people. They tend to get aggressive and rude.

      --
      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
    2. Re:What's keeping the ISPs by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Oh PLEASE take a video of a lawyer telling a gang member that he can't have his free porn because ... if he gets past because, he found a gang member that was so high that he missed his first few shots.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:What's keeping the ISPs by The+Cynical+Critic · · Score: 1

      Speaking of which, anyone else find it funny that the same folks who tell you gov't can't do anything right also tell you gov't can't be allowed to compete with private business because it would be unfair?

      The thing about most people is that they're never completely firm in their views. Prod them on the right subjects and they turn into hypocrites. You can also see this in people who sit on the political left who have no doubts as to minorities being just as smart and capable as whites, but will still call for and defend policies that assume that minorities aren't as smart or capable as whites.

      --
      "Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
    4. Re:What's keeping the ISPs by DaMattster · · Score: 1

      from descending on this little town and crushing this? Just wondering. There's been podunk towns in the middle of nowhere who suggested doing muni-broadband and were shut down by a gaggle of lawyers chanting some nonsense about free enterprise and it not being fair they have to compete with government. Speaking of which, anyone else find it funny that the same folks who tell you gov't can't do anything right also tell you gov't can't be allowed to compete with private business because it would be unfair? What are they afraid of, the gov't's just gonna fail anyway, right?

      For one, this is not a government effort so fighting it might actually be more costly because the citizens are fully invested in it and a few lawyers might actually defend the project pro-bono because it is a good cause to serve. It's very hard to fight a group of people united in a single purpose. Plus, the big ISPs probably do their profit/loss calculations and see that there is only money to lose. I am sure that they will be keeping an eye on the project with some concern that this citizen initiative might spread like a disease. Then they'll get concerned.

    5. Re:What's keeping the ISPs by Patent+Lover · · Score: 1

      You might want to edit this post as it makes no sense.

    6. Re:What's keeping the ISPs by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      Speaking of which, anyone else find it funny that the same folks who tell you gov't can't do anything right also tell you gov't can't be allowed to compete with private business because it would be unfair?

      These statement are not in any way contradictory. Government is allowed to do thing (like collect taxes and impose regulations) which private businesses are not allowed to do. Things which no one should be allowed to do. That is what makes the "competition" unfair. Not that they can out-compete private businesses by doing things right, but that they have a license to cheat.

      What are they afraid of, the gov't's just gonna fail anyway, right?

      They're more afraid that the project will not be allowed to fail—that it will waste the community's resources and drive more efficient (but unsubsidized) private offerings out of business.

      I am personally in favor of community-driven Internet service projects, but they should be organized as subscriber-owned co-ops with no special privileges or legal favor, not branches of the municipal government.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    7. Re:What's keeping the ISPs by thule · · Score: 1

      I am personally in favor of community-driven Internet service projects, but they should be organized as subscriber-owned co-ops with no special privileges or legal favor, not branches of the municipal government.

      Exactly. I don't understand why people can't see the difference. The reason we have such little competition at the local level is *because* local government limited it. There might be good reasons for it, but local government need to make it easier for companies to run wire. Look at the Google Fiber example, such bureaucracy with local government, and they gave up.

      The other big difference is with a co-ops, people actually have work together on the project. Government? "Just give it to me!"

    8. Re:What's keeping the ISPs by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      The reason we have such little competition at the local level is *because* local government limited it.

      That's part of it. In some cases.

      It's also because there are industries that have an enormous barrier to entry (like broadband). Investors aren't interested in spending years and billions to setup shop only to get into a price war with an established competitor.

    9. Re:What's keeping the ISPs by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You can also see this in people who sit on the political left who have no doubts as to minorities being just as smart and capable as whites, but will still call for and defend policies that assume that minorities aren't as smart or capable as whites.

      Actually, no. Let's agree that blacks are as inherently smart and capable as whites, at least for the sake of discussion. The differences, then, are because of social factors.

      Typically, blacks get worse education. They get worse treatment from the justice system - more likely to be arrested than a white committing a similar offense, more likely to be convicted, likely to serve a longer sentence. They're discriminated against in employment (people have sent out resumes with white-sounding and black-sounding names and noticed the difference in response rate). They're not starting on an even basis. I want equality of opportunity, and they're not getting that.

      This also hurts their spirits. Look at what happened when one millionaire visited a classroom and offered to pay for their college if they graduated with good grades: the class responded enthusiastically and did well, because they had hope.

      People have erected barriers to voting for black neighborhoods. Sometimes it's inadequate voting machines. Sometimes it's planning to require ID and close offices that provide IDs in black areas.

      Very simply, blacks facing certain hardships don't do as well as whites not facing those hardships. Some of the hardships are because of historical conditions and some are because of deliberate actions on the part of governments and private enterprises.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    10. Re:What's keeping the ISPs by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Speaking of which, anyone else find it funny that the same folks who tell you gov't can't do anything right also tell you gov't can't be allowed to compete with private business because it would be unfair? What are they afraid of, the gov't's just gonna fail anyway, right?

      Governments can sell items below cost and make up the difference in taxes. Government has little incentive to control costs since ultimately they can tax. Government can mandate that you purchase only from them. Lots of other issues too.

      You even ponder this? - Why Communism Failed

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
  9. Do you even tech, bro? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    The whole effort started last summer with enlisting digital stewards, locals from each neighborhood who were interested in working for the nonprofit coalition, doing everything from spreading the word, to teaching digital literacy, to installing routers and pulling fiber. Many of these stewards started out with little or no tech expertise, but after a 20-week-long training period, they've become experts able to install, troubleshoot, and maintain a network from end to end.

    Fucking impossible. Everybody knows tech skills can't be taught. Tech bros are born, not trained. You have to be young, bro. Youth is skill. Old people can't do shit, ever.

    1. Re:Do you even tech, bro? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      There's plenty of young people with plenty of time in the area. And, let's face it, the skills to set up some internet connection isn't so different from the skills to hotwire a car, cables are cables.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Do you even tech, bro? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I don't really think that you have to start at "tech illiterate". Who said that they didn't already have to set up some kind of network infrastructure? Cellphones are cheap and common, as are access points. No, the setup will probably not be perfect, and it's unlikely they know what BGP means, but we're also not talking about .9999 availability networks. We're talking about "glad to have one" solutions.

      I doubt that they'll compete with you for your job. If they do, your ISP is probably not an ISP I'd want to have because I want more than a "glad to have one" solution.

      And finally, learn to spot jokes. You needn't consider them funny, but taking them serious makes you look kinda ... well, autistic.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Do you even tech, bro? by DaMattster · · Score: 1

      The whole effort started last summer with enlisting digital stewards, locals from each neighborhood who were interested in working for the nonprofit coalition, doing everything from spreading the word, to teaching digital literacy, to installing routers and pulling fiber. Many of these stewards started out with little or no tech expertise, but after a 20-week-long training period, they've become experts able to install, troubleshoot, and maintain a network from end to end.

      Fucking impossible. Everybody knows tech skills can't be taught. Tech bros are born, not trained. You have to be young, bro. Youth is skill. Old people can't do shit, ever.

      Sounds like someone has some bias against older people. When people want to learn something and they set their minds to learn it, they will. Youth might represent skill but time and time again, represents a lack of work ethic. The older people have work developed work ethics from years of experience in the workplace. A blend of youth and older is far better. I taught myself tech skills and continue to do so. I am 40 but I am still sharp as a tack and can run rings around the people that just graduate with Information Technology degrees or others that just get vendor certifications.

    4. Re:Do you even tech, bro? by jjo · · Score: 1

      Whoosh!

  10. 40% without internet! by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 1

    It sounds almost unrealistic. When I firstly read it, I assumed that it was because most of people there didn't want/need to connect to internet (weird for a person like me spending lots of time online, although kind of understandable). But really not being able to afford an internet connection! 40% of the population of a big city! In the USA! How can this be possible?

    --
    Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
    1. Re:40% without internet! by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 1

      The same way similar and much worse things are possible all around the world: Detroit is over 90% black.

      As what usually happens with generic prejudices, your statement makes no sense. Most of black people in the USA have nothing to do with black people in any other country; most of black people in Detroit are very likely to have nothing to do with black people in other American city; and even two black persons in Detroit are extremely likely to have nothing to do with each other.

      Apparently, there is a somehow homogenising black culture in the States, mostly due to their hard past common history, with which (black) people seem to agree more or less on a pretty casuistic basis (i.e., black people feeling/not themselves represented by what most of the generic ideas applicable to the US black community are). So, a slightly better version of your pretty racist and arbitrary statement would be "Detroit is over 90% people influenced by X negative outputs which are usually associated to the US black community", still quite racist and arbitrary, but at least making a tiny bit of sense. I guess that the reality is that there is a high number of low-income people who, in that specific part of the country and according to you, have a high chance of being black; this fact together with the typical US individualist/aggressive-capitalism attitudes might somehow explain a so weird situation.

      --
      Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
    2. Re:40% without internet! by butchersong · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you would be better served by posting a series of examples of successful majority black countries.

    3. Re:40% without internet! by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you would be better served by posting a series of examples of successful majority black countries.

      Perhaps you should take a look at some ancient human history to understand why we evolved as we did and why the most advanced civilizations were settled in certain areas. After that, you might also want to get some information about how the richer countries treated the poorer ones for centuries by destroying their already limited resources, killing their people and performing social atrocities like slavery. You might put all that together to understand why, when things started to get fast around 200 years ago, some countries weren't even in a position to take part in that competition. After understanding all this, you might also want to know a bit more about the actual differences among races, what provokes them and what is the true impact of these and other aspects on personality, intelligence or similar. If you do all that, you might come to the surprising conclusion that we all are basically identical and that our minor differences are mostly due to random events over which we had no control and which might have easily been completely different. A king might have been a peasant if certain day certain person would have forgotten to perform certain task.

      Learning from history and from our past mistakes is certainly good. Relying on centuries old fears and misinterpretations by consciously renouncing to the knowledge which is already at our disposal doesn't seem too recommendable. Mainly when we are currently living in a world of information, where everyone wants to know and to prove that their actions make sense. I personally don't see any problem with a king being a king, but only for as long as he fully appreciates his luck and understands what is the real difference between him and anyone else (= none).

      --
      Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
    4. Re:40% without internet! by butchersong · · Score: 1

      So no examples then. East Asian countries do not seem to have suffered under this colonial influence... Iceland has build a first world nation on a volcanic barren island. Are you seriously telling me that you believe every African nation and every other majority black nation on this planet was unable to succeed because of a European boot on its throat? I do respect your desire for egalitarianism. The desire to treat all races as one is noble and I appreciate your response but eventually you have to reach a point where however intelligent you might be, you are no longer able to perform any more mental contortions and are forced to look simply at the bare facts. Africans are a rich and varied people with many beautiful qualities... the ability to build a large scale stable society doesn't seem to be one of them.

      Please don't take this to mean I think Europeans in all ways superior or even more than marginally superior in that specific quality but the fact is that the ease and social order we experience in modern life is not inevitable. Even in Western society we hold onto it by our fingernails. That small but statistically significant inclination toward stable societies among Europeans is not something we want to subject to unneeded stress.

    5. Re:40% without internet! by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 1

      So no examples then.

      It seems evident that all the countries where black people are the majority are in Sub-Saharan Africa which, as clearly explained in my post, are way much more under-developed than other countries for the explained reasons. So, you were asking me for something that doesn't exist and, consequently, it isn't possible to deliver the example you want. I preferred to address the ignorance underlying such a request by explaining why some regions are (and have always been) poorer than others; the fact of them being mostly populated by certain race is completely irrelevant.

      East Asian countries do not seem to have suffered under this colonial influence

      African countries have been providing slaves since many centuries ago. These countries never had the basic resources to allow modern societies to grow until relatively recently (e.g., mining richness). People from there (= black race) have been poor and attacked by others since ever. Similar conditions don't happen anywhere else. Black people born and raised under more beneficial conditions are identical to any other race (minus the burden of systemic racism and ignorance).

      unable to succeed because of a European boot on its throat?

      Europe is very new. Africa has been poor since way long time before Europe existed. They don't have basic natural resources and are very far away from other human settlements. The closest examples might be pre-Columbian America (lots of natural resources + conquered relatively recently by advanced civilizations) and Australia (lots of natural resources + conquered even more recently by advanced civilizations). What you know today as western and modern-Asian societies grew during many centuries mostly thanks to being communicated. If Europe would have been an island far away from any other land like Australia, we all might still be in the middle ages.

      I do respect your desire for egalitarianism. The desire to treat all races as one is noble and I appreciate your response but eventually you have to reach a point where however intelligent you might be, you are no longer able to perform any more mental contortions and are forced to look simply at the bare facts.

      This isn't true for two reasons: firstly, I am not desiring to think that everyone is identical, I know it for a fact (I mean intrinsically; societies, education, personality, etc. make every individual different). I am not a hypocrite trying to show what is assumed to be better. I am not performing any mental contortion, I am explaining the actual reality of which you only want to see a small part, the one which supports your position. If I was black, my parents adopted me and I had pretty much a similar life than the one I had, I would have been a quite similar person; certainly not the same person, because ideally irrelevant but sadly very influential facts (e.g., the world being extremely racist and the fact of being adopted having some influence in your personality) would have certainly affected my personality and my growth as a person.

      Africans are a rich and varied people with many beautiful qualities... the ability to build a large scale stable society doesn't seem to be one of them.

      You are associating race with profound personality traits what is an extremely inaccurate assumption. Generically relating people with their country, culture, background, etc. makes some sense, but race has as much influence in personality (at least, ideally; as explained above, modern societies have provoked it to be more influential than strictly required) as any other abstract physical feature like height or weight. The reason why the fate of African countries, like Asian or European or any other group of closely-related societies, has been more or less similar is because of the aforementioned historical reasons, nothing to do with races.

      --
      Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
    6. Re:40% without internet! by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 1

      Just in case that point isn't clear and someone considers it relevant here, note that I am white. At least, I look white like all my family does, although we Spaniards are quite mixed people because Spain has been invaded by virtually everyone feeling like invading something. LOL. In any case, I guess that this is also true for many people almost everywhere, what kind of seem to weaken even further abstract race-based claims.

      --
      Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
    7. Re:40% without internet! by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 1

      Also note that I am a man (and have been like this since I was born), wear glasses, my hair is blond(-ish) and my height/weight is around 185 cm/75 kg. Anyone interested in knowing more about these or any other of my generic features (completely irrelevant for the points I made in the comments above and for my online activity as a whole, eminently focused on my work as a programmer/engineer) should better try to avoid dealing with me. Someone might think that the fact of having replaced all my pictures with a logo is already quite indicative of what I think on this front, but that person would be wrong: as internet has taught me, nothing is evident/easy enough for some people.

      --
      Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
  11. Re:Oh by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    You dare go dismantle that dish?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  12. Way to go! by DaMattster · · Score: 1

    This is an example of what people can achieve when they come together for a common good, without politics involved. If I lived in Detroit, I would love to be a part of this. It just goes to show that you need neither Corporate America nor politics to get anything done. Arguably, it happens faster when neither of them get involved in the first place. There's less lip service to progress and MUCH more actual progress achieved.

  13. Analysis by JBMcB · · Score: 1

    Reducing the relative failure of "Detroit" to the failure of an economic system is a bit reductio ad absurdum. There were multiple economic, sociological, and political factors involved.

    The article's remedy - worker's co-ops - are resolutely opposed by the UAW. The UAW thrives on an adversarial relationship with the companies it bargains with. VW tried setting up worker's co-ops in it's factories in the US and the UAW campaigned against them.

    --
    My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
  14. Coincidentally... by Track07 · · Score: 1

    This is how Cable Television got its start (http://www.sectv.com/web/aspfounder.aspx?strSystem=LV). The problem space seems the same, but motivations and forces are different.

  15. "Order it to disarm the missiles" disorder by TheRealHocusLocus · · Score: 1

    SUBTLE ORIGIN of "Order it to disarm the missiles disorder":

    In the final moments of the movie War Games, the protagonist is engaged in a methodical side-channel attack. He successfully completes a step and at the first indication of success Top Brass takes over and issues a blatant over the top direct command, triggering an access alarm and risking total lockout.

    HOW THIS APPLIES TO COMMUNITY INTERNET INITIATIVES:

    Advocates engage in a methodical effort to provide community Internet access, overcoming on-ramp costs, equipment funding and line of sight terrain until a critical mass is achieved. On ribbon cutting day... as a band plays, a sedate ceremony is performed in which one's ability to load a Wikipedia page, access a Gopher server, check email and access the AP news wire is demonstrated. The current temperature and weather forecast is retrieved, which causes a murmur of excitement in the crowd and a round of applause.

    "Order it to disarm the missiles!"

    Everyone jumps onto Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Youtube... sets HD exceed-your-screen-resolution video 'on' and binge-watches 'Ow My Balls' type videos. The community network collapses in a shower of sparks, homework remains undone and a new generation of children dangles their useless account-disabled smartphones in front of cats, who play with them.

    --
    <blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
  16. Detroit's Marginalized Communities Are Building... by inerlogic · · Score: 1

    their own internet.."

    with blackjack and hookers?