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Volkswagen To Spend Over $40 Billion on Electric and Self-Driving Cars (reuters.com)

Posted by msmash on from the next-up dept.

Volkswagen plans to spend more than 34 billion euros ($40 billion) over the next five years on developing electric cars, autonomous driving and other new technologies, it said on Friday. "With the planning round now approved, we are laying the foundation for making Volkswagen the world's number one player in electric mobility by 2025," Chief Executive Matthias Mueller said in a statement.

99 comments

  1. Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Any chance of getting a Volkswagen electric trike with a cabin?

    1. Re: Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't knock it till you tried it out.

      (Not the OP)

  2. Re: GNAA will also be investing in electric cars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Went to his Twitter. Da fuq did I just read?

  3. Re: This just in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Insults all Slashdot users while using Slashdot to do so.

  4. e-Golf is almost perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I took a *serious* look at the e-Golf last month. The only problem is that it has a 201 km range and the cottage is 250 km (like, within 10m of that number).There's a CCS on the route, but it's too close to the start point to be really useful, and there's not a lot of places in the middle to add one. So for me, something with 300 km range is pretty much a requirement.

    The deal is pretty spectacular. Here in Ontario you get $14,000 back for buying an EV, and if you put in a Level 2 charger all your night time power is free (FREE). So after the payoff and taxes and everything else, it came to about $CAD25,000. That's actually less than the base model Golf, but you're getting the mid-level trim.

    Upsides: looks like a Golf (which I prefer), drives like a Golf, has a CCS connection (does the Bolt or is it extra?), about the same size as my Civic so nothing to get used to there. Stereo remembers six BT devices (ugh everyone else with one).

    Downsides:No remote of any sort really, so no way to know the charge status, get reminders, etc. More importantly, no remote "heat up now" which is pretty useful here in Toronto.

    Odd: 0 to 60 in something over 9 seconds, which is really weird given its weight and torque. Maybe a typo in the specs?

    1. Re:e-Golf is almost perfect by beelsebob · · Score: 4, Informative

      I have a 2015 eGolf - it has a remote that reports battery status (amongst other things).

      It is indeed an almost perfect car - my lease is about to expire, and I'm seriously considering another one despite its range being roughly half that of the Bolt.

    2. Re:e-Golf is almost perfect by krojdest · · Score: 2

      Just take a *serious* look at Bolt EV. It's a little bit more expensive, but has 238 miles range and 6.5 seconds for 0-60mph. Have it for 4 months and like it a lot!

    3. Re:e-Golf is almost perfect by slashhax0r · · Score: 1

      The 2018 version is apparently 300km range. How was the range on your eGolf? I'm looking at a 2018 version.

    4. Re:e-Golf is almost perfect by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      How long does a charge take? Because I'd have to charge it twice on the road to reach my parents' house. And I really wouldn't want a ten hour trip turned into a two day trip....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    5. Re:e-Golf is almost perfect by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      My 2015 model has a range of 83 miles using the US tests or 118 miles based of NEDC. My 2015 model has never achieved more than 110 miles on a single charge even with the most careful 35 mph constant speed driving, its usual range, when not deliberately driving very carefully is around 80 miles for my commute (mostly freeway driving).

      Long story short - the NEDC tests are not accurate, the US ones (at least in my experience) are pretty similar to reality. Based off the the US's testing, the 2018 eGolf has a 125 mile range, which is roughly half that of the Bolt's 236.

      That said, the Bolt has uncomfortable seats, and was built out of cheep plastics, so the eGolf is still well and truly on the table.

    6. Re:e-Golf is almost perfect by enjar · · Score: 1

      On fast charging, Chevy claims 90 miles added in 30 minutes. https://www.chevyevlife.com/bo... FWIW, I have a Volt. The battery covers my general commute needs, and the gas engine is used for occasional longer trips. I filled up recently and my "MPG" was over 300. The "fast charging" on the Volt involves putting about 8 gallons of gas in it, and you can drive in hybrid mode as long as you can find gas stations, about 300 miles between fill-ups, getting 40 MPG on the highway.

    7. Re:e-Golf is almost perfect by Rei · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I just don't understand why someone would choose a Bolt unless they were either really opposed to waiting, or really hated minimalism. For example, you mention charge time; Model 3 charges 2 1/2 times faster than that. With a global charging network, single network, evenly spaced, well monitored and maintained (unlike CCS which is... well, not). With an onboard capability even faster for when charger powers rise. And on Bolt, even that level of fast charging is an optional extra. The interior is Fisher-Price style, the base price is higher, the available options list is much more meagre, performance - while not bad - is worse, it looks dorky, GM EV depreciation rates are far higher than Teslas, Chevy customer satisfaction rates are much lower, and on and on.

      Bolt just looks so incredibly unappealing to me in pretty much every respect. I mean, if it had come out several years ago it would have been game changing. But today? Just looks like an also-ran.

      As for Volkswagen and this news, however: I've often sniped at other manufacturers for pretending to focus on EVs, while not actually putting forth the money to make themselves competitive - because the capital involved in tooling up is huge, and if you only go small scale, your unit costs will be too high to be profitable. You know, you see a company announce $10-12B in 10 years, likely backloaded, and it's like... yeah, you're missing a zero there. But this - $40B in five years? This is actually serious. This is the sort of money a company needs to actually pose a threat to a company like Tesla.

      Best of luck, VW. The gauntlet has been thrown down.

      --
      We gotta go to a crappy town where I'm a hero.
    8. Re:e-Golf is almost perfect by slashhax0r · · Score: 1

      I couldn't stand the fit and finish on the Chevy vehicles. My friend also has a Leaf, I felt it was uncomfortable.

    9. Re:e-Golf is almost perfect by antek9 · · Score: 1

      The only problem is that it has a 201 km range and the cottage is 250 km (like, within 10m of that number).

      Beware. You should NEVER ever confuse a spec number with real world mileage, especially not from a company like Volkswagen (and I'm from Germany, trust me). You will only get that range out of the car under optimal conditions, in maybe late spring / early summer, with no interior heating or AC running, no headlights drawing power, and so on.

      My imagination fails me when I try to picture the actual range you'll get in wintertime. In Canada? During our mild European winters, the effective range of a Nissan Leaf is notorious to halve.

      --
      A World in a Grain of Sand / Heaven in a Wild Flower,
      Infinity in the Palm of your Hand / And Eternity in an Hour.
    10. Re:e-Golf is almost perfect by krojdest · · Score: 2

      First of all model 3 is still practically not in production. I did not want to wait another 2 years or so. You are right about Chevy customer satisfaction in general, but not about the Bolt. It's a different picture. Most of the owners at online forums are enjoying this car. Model 3 price will be realistically more than 50K if you like to add all cool features, plus Tesla may soon reach 200K sales and federal tux break will be questionable... Bolt's performance is more then adequate for me - 0-60 in 6 seconds - it's faster then majority of the muscle ICE cars. Fast charging is important for some drivers, but not for me. Home level 2 charging what I'm using the most. And I personally do not like sedans - specially when most of the cars around are SUVs and tracks. A lot of Bolt drivers like to lease the car, so will see in 3 years what will be available.

    11. Re:e-Golf is almost perfect by WrongMonkey · · Score: 1

      The Bolt is a real product. You can buy one now and drive it home the same day. That's an advantage for people who live in the real world.

    12. Re: e-Golf is almost perfect by dwater · · Score: 1

      I don't like the look of Teslas. The front is the bit that bothers me, specifically the logo/grill area. It looks like the maitre d in Ferris Butler's Day Off...all snooty-nosed...ugly even.

      --
      Max.
  5. Dieselgate will be good for humanity by drinkypoo · · Score: 0

    VW Auto Group is one of the world's largest automakers, maybe the largest depending on how you count. They were in a unique position to make this happen, but not bothering to do so because they were profiting from business as usual. Now they're going balls-out into EVs in order to try to shake that reputation, which will benefit everyone.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:Dieselgate will be good for humanity by slick7 · · Score: 1

      VW Auto Group is one of the world's largest automakers, maybe the largest depending on how you count. They were in a unique position to make this happen, but not bothering to do so because they were profiting from business as usual. Now they're going balls-out into EVs in order to try to shake that reputation, which will benefit everyone.

      I believe VW's products are amazing, however, their business ethics, imho, are borderline criminal; unfortunately on the wrong side of that borderline.

      --
      The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
    2. Re: Dieselgate will be good for humanity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In what sense? VW seem to be doing a lot better than most other car makers in the ethics department.

  6. Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good!, Your now behind Tesla by 5 years, Most of the industry is 10 years behind.

    1. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Well not in build quality or reliability.

    2. Re:Good! by green1 · · Score: 2

      They'd be behind Tesla by 5 years if the product could be purchased TODAY. It can't. They haven't even rolled out a prototype that can compete with a 2012 Tesla Model S, and a prototype is expected several years before a purchasable product.

      Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Tesla fan by any means, they're a horrible, slimy company, but I drive a Model S because there is simply no competing vehicle on the road yet. I'll be first in line when someone comes up with an actual competitor.

    3. Re:Good! by Aereus · · Score: 1

      That may be true, but $40B buys you a lot of expertise to bypass at least a few of those years by bringing in outside people. It also will allow you to progress much faster than the resources Tesla has available to them, and leverage their name and supply chain.

  7. Next VW scandal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It turns out that the batteries discharge below the rated minimum and an IC engine hidden in the chassis runs only when it's not plugged into a diagnostics array; runs on hostile tweets and flame-wars about Elon Musk.

    1. Re:Next VW scandal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Every week or so you have to fill it up with "VW Battery Coolant"

    2. Re:Next VW scandal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      VW Part No.: G450LIN3

  8. It's like a catharsis by Nexus7 · · Score: 0

    It is startling how they have been plunging headfirst into electric. While they did cheat with diesel engines, they have huge expertise in that field, and the cheating was for cost and NIH reasons (they didn't want to use MB's SCR tech), not technical. I'd have thought they'd use mild or full hybridization, or even just more advanced actually clean diesels, at least as a transition.

    1. Re:It's like a catharsis by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I'd have thought they'd use mild or full hybridization, or even just more advanced actually clean diesels, at least as a transition.

      They are. The new A8 is a mild hybrid. The luxury market can pay for the new tech, which will filter into the majority of their vehicles before any of these EVs come out. They're probably waiting until more of the car can affordably be 48V, which in turn reduces the size of the 12V system.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:It's like a catharsis by evilviper · · Score: 1

      I'd have thought they'd use mild or full hybridization, or even just more advanced actually clean diesels, at least as a transition.

      NOBODY will believe VW when they announce they've got a new, clean diesel. In addition, European countries are announcing future, across-the-board bans on diesels, because the soot they produce is so damaging to health and structures. There's no future in diesel cars, and spending any more money on developing a BETTER dead-end technology is foolish. You might as well tell Kodak to make a slightly cheaper film camera, as digital cameras loom large.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    3. Re: It's like a catharsis by dwater · · Score: 1

      Is it really about the soot? I don't see much about soot these days and it's more about the invisible particles (is that what you call soot?) and NOX gases. /Curious

      --
      Max.
    4. Re: It's like a catharsis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The invisible particles are mostly soot, yes.

    5. Re: It's like a catharsis by evilviper · · Score: 1

      https://tech.slashdot.org/stor...

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    6. Re: It's like a catharsis by dwater · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's not new and I actually have one of the affected vehicles, but I personally can distinguish between what diesels used to produce - horrible thick black soot, kind of like what comes out of a chimney when you clean it, and what the produce now, which is pretty much invisible - until it becomes smog, that is.

      --
      Max.
  9. Nice but ... by nospam007 · · Score: 0

    I'd prefer that they spent a few billions on the people they defrauded and also spend lots of years in jail.

    1. Re:Nice but ... by enjar · · Score: 1

      Did you miss the part where the costs of the recall / remediation were more than $30B or more? http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/2...

    2. Re:Nice but ... by slick7 · · Score: 1

      I'd prefer that they spent a few billions on the people they defrauded and also spend lots of years in jail.

      ...spend lots of decades in jail. FTFY.
      They should return all the money they cheated people of, plus 20% for the aggravation caused.

      --
      The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
    3. Re: Nice but ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who did they defraud?

  10. Fahrvergnügen becomes... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Electronügen

  11. Cars of the future by Arzaboa · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Electric cars are quick, efficient and quiet. Imagine NYC if the sound of engines were taken away. Imagine a small 40,000 person community. Imagine the tangible differences; less smog, less noise. This is a great solution for people that live in urban areas. I think people will find the ease of use, the different feel of being so quiet, and how little maintenance has to be done so appealing that it is going to become irresistible to almost anyone buying a new car, relatively soon.

    --
    "Life is a journey. When we stop, things don't go right." - Pope Francis

    1. Re:Cars of the future by green1 · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, humanity is working hard to screw it up yet.

      New laws require all electric vehicles to include noisemakers which could potentially make them LOUDER than modern internal combustion vehicles (I wish I was joking!)
      And most announced "electric" vehicles by all manufacturers (including VW) aren't actually electric anyway and are only hybrids.

    2. Re:Cars of the future by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

      New laws require all electric vehicles to include noisemakers which could potentially make them LOUDER than modern internal combustion vehicles (I wish I was joking!)

      My first thought was "he's joking, right?"

      My second was "better verify this".

      My third was "Jaysus, he's not joking". Though it's not quite correct. Only electrics built after 2019 will require the noisemakers....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    3. Re:Cars of the future by green1 · · Score: 1

      google "red flag laws" while you're at it. It's exactly the same motivation. This has zero to do with safety, and everything to do with resistance to change.

    4. Re:Cars of the future by Solandri · · Score: 2

      It's not required until 2019, but most of the EVs (and hybrids operating in electric-only mode) already have it. That electric whine with a high pitched overtone you hear from them at low speeds? It's not from the motor. It's just sound played through a speaker.

      The noise is added so blind and inattentive pedestrians are aware that there's a moving car nearby. NHTSA noticed an uptick in low-speed accidents between hybrids/EVs and pedestrians, so jumped on a way to stop it before it became epidemic.

    5. Re:Cars of the future by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Imagine NYC if the sound of engines were taken away.

      Engines only contribute about 1/3rd of the noise of a vehicle. Air being pushed out from between the wheels and pavement counts for most of the rest. EVs will help a bit, but wont fix the problem.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    6. Re:Cars of the future by swillden · · Score: 1

      New laws require all electric vehicles to include noisemakers which could potentially make them LOUDER than modern internal combustion vehicles (I wish I was joking!)

      Only at low speed, where the sound might actually be a useful warning to pedestrians. Once the speed gets over 20 mph or so, the vehicle is moving fast enough that it would have to be really loud for a pedestrian to hear it at a useful distance.

      The Nissan LEAF has always had such a noisemaker. It shuts off at about 20 mph.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    7. Re:Cars of the future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      New laws require all electric vehicles to include noisemakers which could potentially make them LOUDER than modern internal combustion vehicles (I wish I was joking!)

      I don't know of any car that doesn't contain a radio and speaker system that COULD potentially make them louder than the engine, except maybe fleet vehicles.

      What's your point? That you want the laws to not require methods that result in noise pollution? Ok, well, there's also the question of safety, so net result? Who knows? If you're not satisfied, bring your grievances forward.

    8. Re:Cars of the future by green1 · · Score: 0

      There was actually no up-tick, and modern internal combustion cars are actually quieter than these vehicles, so the concept of it being for "safety" is easily disproven.

    9. Re:Cars of the future by green1 · · Score: 0

      Safety is easy. There is ZERO safety benefit, and there is a safety danger to noise pollution that is well documented.

      If it was really about safety, ALL vehicles would be required to be a minimum noise level, not just electric ones. Listen to a high end internal combustion vehicle some time, they're nearly silent at low speeds.

      This is a modern "red flag law" designed to punish new technology. Nothing more.

    10. Re:Cars of the future by kencurry · · Score: 1

      I used to be a bike commuter in SoCal. Too many Prius roll up on you to cut in front for a right turn (while you are in bike lane legally); you can't hear them coming so as to evade or protect yourself. I had so many close call - one reason I quit biking from the train station. I always thought those things should have some kind of engine-noise required for safety reasons.

      --
      sigs are for losers (except to point out that sigs are for losers)
    11. Re:Cars of the future by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Imagine NYC if the sound of engines were taken away.

      Horns and angry shouting over the sound of a background drone will just be replaced with horns and angry shouting?

    12. Re:Cars of the future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Car and Driver reported maintenance costs on their Tesla are about the same as a gas car. There was no savings, it seems. And that along with the initial cost is the problem. They are too expensive. Like PC's in the 80's. Back then kids didn't chat on the computer, it just wasn't mainstream. Hybrid sales are down, EVs are niche expensive. It's going to take time. Solar doesn't even make sense for me yet, and I live in CA and pay Enron prices for electricity... :-(

    13. Re: Cars of the future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correct. I drove a Leaf for two years, above about 30 kph there was practically no difference between it and a modern ICE car.
      It was way ahead in other areas, but noise was not one of them.

    14. Re: Cars of the future by Rutulian · · Score: 1

      If you're referring to this article,
      https://www.caranddriver.com/r...

      That's not really what they're saying. They are saying if you can't replace your own brake fluid or cabin air filter, or take it to a Firestone to do it, they will charge you $700 for it, which isn't terribly unlike any other luxury car service. What they don't tell you is how much they spent on oil changes, or transmission fluid, or brake service. Hint: they didn't spend anything on it. So including the savings on gas, that's a good deal less than an ice.

    15. Re:Cars of the future by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Electric cars are quick, efficient and quiet. Imagine NYC if the sound of engines were taken away.

      Are traffic problems not bad enough in NYC already? All it takes is for a few of those cars to run out of power per day.

      The other week I was stuck on the A327 because an electric car (a Tesla no less) had run out of power. The A327 is mostly single lane each way so at peak hour there are practically no chances to overtake (and the Tesla driver refused to push his precious car off the road whilst waiting for recovery) I was relatively close but delayed by almost an hour. Not sure how many carbons my 3L turbo 6 put out at that time.

      My experience with Tesla drivers has demonstrated that the only thing these cars are missing is the logo needs a W, A and T added to it.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  12. Vaporware by cerberusss · · Score: 2

    In software development, it's called vaporware if you're announcing how great the shit is that you're going to develop. VW is behind the pack at the moment, that's why they're blabbering about this, in my opinion.

    Right now, I'm driving a Renault Zoe. This is an extremely practical car. The NEDC range is 400 km (250 miles), which realistically is 275 km (170 miles). VW is getting closer, but AFAIK right now does not have anything like that.

    --
    8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    1. Re:Vaporware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The technology required to make self driving cars is not available. Unless it is intended they also self wreck.

    2. Re:Vaporware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In software development, it's called vaporware if you're announcing how great the shit is that you're going to develop.

      Back in 1994, Windows NT was "vaporware" and how did that work out? That "vaporware" went on to sell billions

    3. Re:Vaporware by green1 · · Score: 2

      VW isn't "behind the pack" they're behind a couple of early technology leaders. VW is actually at the front of the "pack" of major manufacturers who are still WAY behind the curve on electrification.

      That said, it's absolutely pathetic that nearly 10 years after Tesla announced the Model S that there still isn't a single competitor to that vehicle. (And how I wish there was, I'm sick of Tesla's slimy unethical behaviour!)

    4. Re:Vaporware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Tesla's still not profitable.

    5. Re:Vaporware by green1 · · Score: 2

      They aren't profitable, but that's nothing to do with the vehicles themselves, they actually have among the highest profit margins in the auto industry on each vehicle sold. The losses are all on the business expansion side, building out new stores, service centres, factories, etc. Things a traditional automaker wouldn't have to worry about in this space. In short, Tesla has a spending problem, not an income problem.

      I'm not exactly Tesla's biggest fan (I personally think they're the scummiest company I've ever dealt with, and that says a lot!) but they have managed to get a profitable, and desirable, long range, high end, electric vehicle out the door and in to consumer's hands. Something no other automaker has yet done.

    6. Re:Vaporware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They aren't profitable, but that's nothing to do with the vehicles themselves...Tesla has a spending problem, not an income problem.

      Wrong.

      Tesla has an income problem, which is why they are not profitable. They are not Amazon, which plowed profits back into capital expansion to conquer markets.

      Telsa needs to pay down their R&D for each model. It cost over a billion dollars for a new vehicle platform. This is a fixed cost which is built into every car sold and not considered an operating expense. They are losing money on each car because they don't sell enough and to sell more cars they need to expand manufacturing capacity. Unfortunately, the company doesn't have the money or expertise as witnessed by their production hell crisis.

    7. Re:Vaporware by green1 · · Score: 1

      I don't think you've looked at the numbers at all.

      They ARE like Amazon there, they're plowing more money in to capital expansion than they're making on vehicle sales. If they had built a battery factory the size they needed for the vehicles they were producing, or kept the same number of stores they already had, etc, they'd be profitable already. But instead they built a much bigger battery factory than they have any need for yet, and built out more stores, in more countries. This costs a lot of money.

      I personally think they've made the wrong choices in their expansion, and that a slightly slower expansion, one that left them profitable, would have been a better idea. But I don't run the company. There's also an argument that's been put forward that Tesla is actually intentionally losing money so as to dissuade other companies from competing with them. Peter Rawlinson (designer of the Model S who has now departed the company) has accused Tesla of this.

      Tesla is many things (and a large number of them negative) but "losing money on each car sold" isn't one of them. Tesla has had to deal with a bunch of financial hurdles that wouldn't apply to other established automakers entering the electric space. The fact that there is still zero competition to the Model S is demonstrating the incompetence and apathy of the other manufacturers, not the lack of profitability of making an EV. If you really think that EVs can't be profitable, listen to Mary Barra (CEO of GM) She thinks EVs are profitable, and is committing to build a lot of them (unfortunately she's starting awful late here...)

    8. Re:Vaporware by mjwx · · Score: 1

      VW isn't "behind the pack" they're behind a couple of early technology leaders. VW is actually at the front of the "pack" of major manufacturers who are still WAY behind the curve on electrification.

      That said, it's absolutely pathetic that nearly 10 years after Tesla announced the Model S that there still isn't a single competitor to that vehicle. (And how I wish there was, I'm sick of Tesla's slimy unethical behaviour!)

      Not really, VW is about average at best, probably a bit worse than Renault or GM.

      BMW is ostensibly at the head of the pack because they've been selling dedicated electric cars (i3 and i8) as well as hybrid versions of their existing cars (I.E. a 330e plug in hybrid) in good numbers. After that you've got Toyota and probably Mitsubishi with their PHEV range.

      The problem VW has is that when Toyota was developing petrol hybrids, VW sank all of its money into Diesels which seemed like a good idea given the favourable tax concessions given to diesels in Europe. Now these concessions are going because it turns out Diesels aren't clean after all and VW is about to lose half it's European sales. Hence the rush for hybrid and electrification.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    9. Re:Vaporware by green1 · · Score: 1

      The i8 isn't a "dedicated electric car" it's a hybrid. You can't buy one without a gasoline engine, or with a battery pack big enough to do anything at all. The i3 is a different matter of course, but I would bet the majority of those are hybrid as well (they sell both hybrid and ev versions)
      As for Toyota, their ev efforts have been the epitome of "compliance". And while Mitsubishi technically has the imiev, it's hardly been a blockbuster hit. Meanwhile Volkswagen's egolf actually gets really good reviews.

      VW is no saint here, but they're not behind anyone other than Tesla, and maybe gm with the bolt, but let's face it, everyone is behind Tesla.

      Right now if your want a real world usable long range ev you can buy a Tesla, or a Bolt. There really aren't any other options.

  13. broken windows for everyone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'd prefer that they spent a few billions on the people they defrauded and also spend lots of years in jail.

    Yeah let's close a few factories and throw a few thousand workers off their jobs so you can feel some vengeance

  14. They used to be made in Germany by boudie2 · · Score: 1

    Sadly, most of the VW models sold in North America are made in Mexico. For obvious reasons, VW doesn't publicize that fact.

    1. Re:They used to be made in Germany by WrongMonkey · · Score: 1

      Why is this sad?

    2. Re:They used to be made in Germany by enjar · · Score: 1

      So, like every other large automaker, they have a worldwide collection of production facilities? In other news, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes, BMW, GM, Ford, Chrysler/Fiat, Mazda, Subaru, etc. have been making cars outside their "home country" for decades. They even sometimes use each other's suppliers for parts, and sometimes they assemble major components in one place and do final assembly elsewhere. Shocking, I know. But look under the hood and at the names on electrical components and OEM parts, you might be surprised.

    3. Re: They used to be made in Germany by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The poster prefers that VWs are built by turks instead of mexicans.

    4. Re:They used to be made in Germany by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >"home country"
      the owners of the wealth (and big corporations) are well post 'nationstates', but they use people's patriotism to mislead and manipulate them.

    5. Re: They used to be made in Germany by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      Made in Germany is synonymous with quality much as Made in USA once was.

    6. Re:They used to be made in Germany by boudie2 · · Score: 1

      Made in Germany is better than made in Mexico? Unless it's a sombrero.

    7. Re:They used to be made in Germany by WrongMonkey · · Score: 2

      Since you didn't bother to give a reason, I'm just going to assume you're racist. Sombrero remarks confirms.

    8. Re:They used to be made in Germany by boudie2 · · Score: 1

      Well if you were given the choice of a German vehicle made in Germany or one made in Alabama or Mexico which would you take? None of them makes their top models in Mexico, only the cheaper ones. Mexico=Crap.

    9. Re:They used to be made in Germany by boudie2 · · Score: 2

      Well if being a racist means I'd trust your average German to do a better job at putting a car together than your average Mexican call me a racist.

    10. Re:They used to be made in Germany by WrongMonkey · · Score: 2

      Yep. That's racist alright. At least you have the courage to admit it!

    11. Re:They used to be made in Germany by boudie2 · · Score: 1

      Well, when I'm right, I'm right.

    12. Re: They used to be made in Germany by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of the blue collar work in Germany isn't done by Germans anymore.

    13. Re: They used to be made in Germany by dwater · · Score: 1

      I don't recall that ever being the case for the USA... certainly not for automotive.

      --
      Max.
    14. Re:They used to be made in Germany by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Sadly, most of the VW models sold in North America are made in Mexico. For obvious reasons, VW doesn't publicize that fact.

      Dont worry, the ones made in Germany are just as crappy.

      Besides, the whole "made in" is a misnomer these days, parts come in from all over the world and are just assembled in the final location. In fact the "Golf" is made in several locations, Spain as the Seat Leon, Czech Republic as the Skoda Octavia, all the same parts, just a different final assembly location.

      Very few cars are made woe to go in the same country, most of these are hyper expensive (think McLaren expensive). I've had Japanese cars with Philips headlamps (made in Germany) and German cars with NGK spark plugs (made in Japan), parts are sourced from all over the world, this is both good and bad as you can get crap components (suspension made in China) or get the worlds best components.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    15. Re:They used to be made in Germany by boudie2 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you're right, since most cars are made by robots and automated machinery anyways these days what difference is it what country they come from. It's nothing new, even Harley-Davidson motorcycles have had Japanese electronics going back to the 70s. But Mexico?

    16. Re:They used to be made in Germany by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you're right, since most cars are made by robots and automated machinery anyways these days what difference is it what country they come from. It's nothing new, even Harley-Davidson motorcycles have had Japanese electronics going back to the 70s. But Mexico?

      I think it matters a little, but not as much as it used to. Although manufacturing is largely automated, process is still human designed and controlled. Things like QA/QC, although the Japanese have successfully run factories in Thailand for years now without a huge problem. As long as VW, GM, et al. are running the Mexico plants right, there shouldn't be an appreciable drop in quality. IIRC, dont VW make the Golf in Mexico because of tariffs on German cars? Same with VM assembling Korean cars in CKD form (Complete Knock Down).

      When it comes to cars, design is more important. The Koreans are rapidly picking up the pace because they've poached ze Germans, ex-AUDI and BMW designers and engineers are now designing cars for Kia and Hyundai. A well designed car is likely to be a well made car. A poorly designed car, no matter how well made is still going to be bad.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    17. Re:They used to be made in Germany by boudie2 · · Score: 1

      These days the game seems to be what can you do with your Siemens NX or Solidworks software. Between that and over regulation is why cars now all have a similar appearance. Quality in general seems to be better but there are no new cars that wow me. They all seem way overly complex. The first car I bought as a teenager to fix up was a 1969 Pontiac GTO Judge for $1000. in 1980. The world certainly has changed a lot since then.

  15. VW making electic cars? by Neuronwelder · · Score: 0

    Good! It will get that diesel stench off the road!

    1. Re:VW making electic cars? by Solandri · · Score: 2

      I have a VW Touareg TDI subject to the recall. I'm extremely sensitive to the diesel stench. When I'm on the freeway, I can usually tell when there's an old diesel Mercedes a quarter mile ahead simply by the smell. And I cannot ride on most diesel boats because the smell gives me a headache. I have never gotten that smell from the Touareg. In fact except for the 'D' in TDI, almost nobody has even noticed that it's a diesel.

      I bought it for towing, and was surprised at how fuel efficient it is. This is a 5000 lb vehicle rated to tow 7700 lbs, and I benchmarked it at 36.6 MPG on the freeway with cruise control set at 65 MPH over a circular route. I changed fuel additives recently to one with more lubrication (modern ultra-low sulfur formulations are very low in lubrication), and now I'm getting about 38 MPG on the freeway with occasional forays into 40+ MPG territory. I'm afraid that in their zeal to get stereotypical "dirty" cars off the road, environmentalists are going to wind up increasing fuel consumption and air pollution by eliminating some incredibly fuel-efficient vehicles.

      Understand that the reason the NOx emissions are high on diesels is because the engines are so efficient. The more efficiently the engine burns, the higher the temperature and the less carbon (from the fuel) there is for atmospheric oxygen to bind to, so some of the oxygen ends up binding to atmospheric nitrogen instead. Diesel straddles the limit for acceptable NOx emissions (which contribute to smog). But if you artificially set the NOx limits lower than they really need to be for clean air, you'll trade off engine efficiency and wind up increasing fuel consumption and therefore pollution.

    2. Re:VW making electic cars? by Neuronwelder · · Score: 2

      Actually NOx emissions form, due to high air compression ratios with high temps. And diesel engines must have high air compression ratios to ignite the diesel vapor... In cars, smog is why they lowered the compression ratios after the early 1970's, They did this in gas powered vehicles, to reduce smog levels in the air from Nitrous Oxide emissions. And they lost horsepower.., It's very true that they now discovered diesel fumes can even effect the minds and mood.. And the soot is very carcinogenic. (Gasoline isn't a winner in cancer either. Poorly kept ones, stink with raw unburnt gasoline too.) Once in a blue moon, I too, drive behind a clean diesel car or bus. But If the: injectors, fuel pump, or governor go bad it starts to smell bad, or even visibly smoke. Even compression loss can cause this due to lower temperatures causing incomplete combustion. I don't know if they still do it. But some truckers used to run filtered, used, motor oil in their vehicles. And that stuff reeks! (Diesels are more powerful because diesel oil is more energy dense than gasoline.)

    3. Re:VW making electic cars? by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      To condense your comment. NOx is generated any time you have a high pressure, high temperature environment in air. It actually doesn't have anything to do with the fuel being burned as it's a natural reaction at those conditions between the nitrogen and oxygen in the air. But diesel engines by their very nature need higher pressures and higher temperatures to ignite the diesel. This means any air passing through the engine is going to generate NOx at much higher rates than gasoline.

      You can scrub NOx in a catalytic converter which is how the problem is solved in gas engines but diesel particulate emissions destroy catalytic converters. Big trucks get around this by using Urea which contains the NOx emissions by converting it. VW claimed to have solved the Urea problem on small diesels but in fact hadn't solved the problem, just found a way to cheat on the emissions. The result being the only way to get an effective diesel with low emissions will be to outfit the cars with urea tanks just like big rigs. This is a non-starter for residential drivers and VW has decided that rather than trying to switch to gasoline they will just jump straight to electric. It's the only real move they could have made after the diesel cheating was revealed.

    4. Re: VW making electic cars? by dwater · · Score: 1

      I had my Audi A1 1.6 diesel "fixed" and they didn't add any urea device. I'm not sure what they did actually.

      --
      Max.
  16. It's a big market by jasonma84 · · Score: 1

    Electric and self driving cars are definitely a good area to be in. My guess is silicon valley will pave the way and the automobile industry will just buy them out at some point and market into their existing vehicles.

    1. Re:It's a big market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt Silicon Valley will play a role. They don't have any expertise in automobile technology.

  17. Re: This just in by PoopJuggler · · Score: 1

    WHOOSH

  18. In German, it is pronounced "Yes-us" by Latent+Heat · · Score: 1

    In many languages-other-than-English, the "J" is actually a "Y" sound, that is how we got from Yahshuah to Jesus and from YWYH to Jehovah -- see http://www.bing.com/videos/sea...

  19. Typical Volkswagon Quality Engineering? by pubwvj · · Score: 1

    Will these cars be rated to run 1,000 miles on a single standard D-Cell battery based on Volkswagon engineer testing?