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EU Agrees To End Country-Specific Limits For Online Retailers (reuters.com)

An anonymous reader shares a report: The European Union has agreed a plan obliging online retailers operating in the bloc to make electrical goods, concert tickets or car rental available to all EU consumers regardless of where they live. Putting an end to "geoblocking", whereby consumers in one EU country cannot buy a good or service sold online in another, has been a priority for the EU as it tries to create a digital single market with 24 legislative proposals. The agreement late on Monday between the European Parliament, the EU's 28 member states and the Commission will allow EU consumers to buy products and services online from any EU country. The agreement applies to e-commerce sites including Amazon and eBay.

72 comments

  1. Does this apply to prostitutes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some countries have way hotter women than others.

    1. Re:Does this apply to prostitutes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you're paying for it, you're doing it wrong

    2. Re:Does this apply to prostitutes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since when are prostitutes "geoblocked"? The Shengen Area says, bring them on!!

    3. Re:Does this apply to prostitutes? by TheCastro1689 · · Score: 2

      Despite your downvote, this is an interesting question if the prostitute is available online and legal in your country, I would assume there are higher travel costs though.

    4. Re:Does this apply to prostitutes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Buying sexual services are still illegal in some countries, but hopefully the rest of the EU will follow Sweden's example and then it will be illegal to pay for sex all over EU.

  2. Catch 22 for small companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They have to sell to every EU country. At the same time they are not allowed to sell to other EU countries unless they have a tax (and depending on the type of goods also a recycling) representative in those countries.

    1. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by Carewolf · · Score: 4, Informative

      They have to sell to every EU country. At the same time they are not allowed to sell to other EU countries unless they have a tax (and depending on the type of goods also a recycling) representative in those countries.

      Small retailers are excempt from having to handle tax in other countries. Generally it is up to the consumer to declare the goods for taxation in those cases (which is a commonly used loophole to get things "taxfree" over the internet)

    2. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Isn't VAT charged in the member state where the retailer is based, irrespective of where the buyer is, assuming the goods are being shipped inside the EU.

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    3. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by nospam007 · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Isn't VAT charged in the member state where the retailer is based, irrespective of where the buyer is, assuming the goods are being shipped inside the EU."

      No that has changed a couple of years ago. Now it's the buyer's country that is relevant.

    4. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      Correct.

    5. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      That is only true for services, not for goods.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    6. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by Freischutz · · Score: 1

      "Isn't VAT charged in the member state where the retailer is based, irrespective of where the buyer is, assuming the goods are being shipped inside the EU."

      No that has changed a couple of years ago. Now it's the buyer's country that is relevant.

      The seller is supposed to deduct the local VAT from the list price. What they normally seem to do is sell you the product with local VAT, rip you off on the shipping, and then they presumably pocket the money. The only online shops that ever deduct national VAT on products that I buy are German shops who do so very conscientiously. They also don't rip me off on postage although the delivery can be a bit slower but their P&P charges are also much lower than what US and UK stores charge me, even for bog standard Royal Mail or USPS shipment.

    7. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by TheCastro1689 · · Score: 1

      Just like the States! Tax free shopping online should be the norm, it makes zero sense when you live in a state that has a gas tax to pay for the roads separately that the delivery truck is using. At that point I'm literally getting zero benefit from whatever a sales tax is used for. We can justify that the vehicle delivering goods has to pay registration/tagging fees, fuel (with said road tax), property tax or rent that goes towards it for their warehouse. Why should I pay fucking sales tax too?

    8. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by TheCastro1689 · · Score: 1

      I purchased some Euro headlamps from the UK for my S60R years ago and the guy over the phone, Paul if I remember, goes "Oh you're in the US, let me subtract VAT" and it saved me a ton.

    9. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      "Isn't VAT charged in the member state where the retailer is based, irrespective of where the buyer is, assuming the goods are being shipped inside the EU."

      No that has changed a couple of years ago. Now it's the buyer's country that is relevant.

      But only if the sales in the other country exceed the VAT threshold (min 35,000 euros). At this amount they can probably afford to register for VAT in that country. Another option is to use an already VAT registered agent in the country.

    10. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Just like the States! Tax free shopping online should be the norm, it makes zero sense when you live in a state that has a gas tax to pay for the roads separately that the delivery truck is using. At that point I'm literally getting zero benefit from whatever a sales tax is used for. We can justify that the vehicle delivering goods has to pay registration/tagging fees, fuel (with said road tax), property tax or rent that goes towards it for their warehouse. Why should I pay fucking sales tax too?

      VAT is not salex tax. And it is used as an alternative to income taxing as it has fewer loopholes and is less regressive.

    11. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      That is only true for services, not for goods.

      No also for goods. And it wasn't changed recently. It has been that way for a long time, it just not required of smaller online retailers to deal with it.

    12. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Was this ever even a problem? The only thing I have seen that you could not buy from another EU country was copyright protected content, which is exempt from this new regulation. Usually the problem is that the seller will not ship to you (then they need tax representation in your country, or be very small), but if you know someone local (or travel there) it was never a problem given you declare it when you get back.

    13. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For computer components, Poland had the lowest prices and VAT, but somewhere like UK or France has VAT about 17.5%. So in theory, it would make more sense to buy from Poland and ship to your home country. But there is import duty and now local VAT.

    14. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. If I shop on Amazon Germany and select Belgium as a country, I get charged the Belgian VAT. Smaller shops probably sell using their local VAT though.

    15. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      VAT is charged at the point of sale. Currently that's considered to be the country from where you access the website.

    16. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Theft is theft.

    17. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by Picodon · · Score: 1

      How is VAT less regressive than income tax?

    18. Re: Catch 22 for small companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Loopholes are only there because incompetent or malicious lawmakers. Loopholes are possible with sales tax or VAT or whatever other mechanism is instituted.

    19. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      UK VAT is 20% on most things. there's a lower 5% rate thats on a few things (home heating oil i think being one). Then there's things that are 0% rated, food kids clothes and books etc

    20. Re:Catch 22 for small companies by TheCastro1689 · · Score: 1

      It isn't.

  3. Also for Software? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Will this also be valid for Software like Solidworks or Ansys?

    1. Re:Also for Software? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From TFA:

      The proposal does not extend to copyright-protected content, which includes music streaming services such as Spotify and Apple’s iTunes, electronic books, television series and movies.

    2. Re:Also for Software? by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 2

      The proposal does not extend to copyright-protected content, which includes music streaming services such as Spotify and Apple’s iTunes, electronic books, television series and movies.

      This is really a pity.

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    3. Re:Also for Software? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was originally intended to apply to digital goods, too. I expected that wouldn't happen when I read about the draft a couple of month ago.

    4. Re:Also for Software? by jonwil · · Score: 1

      They should exempt digital goods but require the new rules to apply to physical copies of goods that are copyright protected.

    5. Re:Also for Software? by maglor_83 · · Score: 1

      Why?

    6. Re:Also for Software? by v1nce29 · · Score: 0

      You can thank French lobbyists

  4. EU is not a single market by Richard_at_work · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As much as the EU heads try to fake it, the EU is not a single, contiguous market - there is a *huge* variation in what pricing the markets will bear between the "senior" economies of the UK (not as much an issue shortly), France, Germany etc and the "junior" markets of the eastern states, Spain, Portugal etc. This is why there is significant economic migration to the former countries from the latter - a lot of the money earned is sent back to the "junior" states to support families etc.

    Removing the geoblocking means that companies will migrate pricing toward the higher paying markets, which means the "junior" markets will lose out as Amazon etc will no longer be able to offer lower "market bearing" pricing specifically for them - which means its going to have an overall negative effect on the ability of those nations populations to buy online.

    1. Re:EU is not a single market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or they could just tack on shipping fees to normalize the price.

    2. Re:EU is not a single market by nospam007 · · Score: 2

      "Or they could just tack on shipping fees to normalize the price."

      Indeed. Personally I don't get it. Small retailer go to the post-office and pay for the shipment, the only thing they have to do is to have a list of costs for 28 instead of 2 or 3 countries.

      My post-office (Luxembourg) even has contracts with 2 Logistic companies in border towns, one in Germany (Trier) and one in France(Metz) who receive goods for buyers from Germany- resp. France-only shippers and transports them to us for 5 bucks from there.

      It's also useful for shipping-free-locally stuff, if the international shipping is more than 5 bucks.

      Germany and France are the worst 'offenders', some retailers in France even ship only in the Parisian region. Some German companies don't ship to their own islands.
      I guess they don't want the money of the rest of the 7 billion people on worldwide web.

    3. Re:EU is not a single market by Malc · · Score: 1

      Alternatively, could it possibly give a boost to the bricks and mortar shopping experience in those 'junior' markets with the added benefit of a higher tax take for their governments?

    4. Re:EU is not a single market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the seller's ideal, every customer pays exactly what they are willing to pay, and anyone willing to pay more than the average cost of production is a customer.

      In reality, when you try to make stratified prices without some form of concrete difference in those layers, you create a minor industry of people who can get the lower price and resell at slightly lower than the higher prices. While people end up paying closer to what they are willing to pay than in a single-price scenario, none of that extra payment is going to the manufacturers.

      The morality and long-term economic effects of training the poor to be middle-men and the environmental significance of the extended shipping distances are all debateable at this stage.

    5. Re:EU is not a single market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing is being sold at a loss in the "lower bearing" markets. It is already common place for Europeans from "higher bearing" markets to travel to the "lower bearing" markets a few times a year to save money. The only course of action for Amazon is to lower their high prices in other markets and utilize the manufacturing and shipping ports of the lower priced markets for distribution of goods within the EU (which they are already doing but with a heavy mark-up on prices.)

    6. Re:EU is not a single market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Errr... you might be surprised that media products, such as DVD and Blu-ray actually tend to cost more in poorer Eastern European countries than in the West. And not only those. Even many food products are sold at higher prices (and lower quality) in the East. Don't believe everything the lobbyists are saying.

    7. Re:EU is not a single market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You just described "trickle down" economics as it gets implemented in the real world.

      It's supposed to be that the benefits trickle down from those "senior" economies to the "junior" ones. What really happens is that when the trickle itself begins to happen, it erodes an ever-more-efficient path, shaping policy and increasing the trickle to a torrent. Then the rich, "senior" economy guys decide they want to keep more for themselves, and charge more money. This, in turn, nukes the "junior" economies and takes the legs out from under the "senior" ones, bursting bubbles and starting recessions and depressions. This is because rich assholes are not smart enough to avoid cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

      I wish they'd just start calling it "piss on you" economics. It would be far more accurate.

    8. Re:EU is not a single market by dabadab · · Score: 1

      Amazon etc will no longer be able to offer lower "market bearing" pricing specifically for them

      Thing is, there is no such pricing. It simply does not exist. Living in Eastern Europe and regularly shopping on Amazon (using an Austrian bank account and an Austrian delivery address) I have yet to notice any meaningful price difference between stuff on Amazon and in local shops (or for that matter between the prices of Lidl in Hungary and Lild in Austria).

      Sure, you can get a haircut, a dinner in a restaurant or a house much cheaper in the East - but that's the stuff that you can not order from abroad. As soon as you get to stuff that you can buy on Amazon, there is no real difference between West-EU and East-EU.

      --
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    9. Re:EU is not a single market by green1 · · Score: 1

      Amazon etc will no longer be able to offer lower "market bearing" pricing specifically for them - which means its going to have an overall negative effect on the ability of those nations populations to buy online.

      I don't think you grasp how "market bearing" prices work. This pricing scheme is used to raise the prices of goods in richer markets, never to lower them in poorer ones. If the item wasn't profitable to sell at a certain price, they wouldn't have been selling it at that price to start with. The fact that they're charging more in the richer market means they just want even more profit (simple greed).

      This is especially egregious because we don't have "market bearing" pricing on the wholesale or labour side of things, so those companies invariably took advantage of low cost jurisdictions on one end, and high cost jurisdictions on the other.

      I don't see why we should give companies the benefit of choosing the best deal in the world for producing products, while at the same time actively preventing consumers from doing the exact same thing on the retail side.

    10. Re:EU is not a single market by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Do you honestly think this sort of economic migration does not happen within nation states as well? A lot of people have migrated from the country to the cities historically. The US even does it in cycles, people migrate from the countryside to the cities to go to college, work there, then retire back in the country (because of housing prices) then the cycle repeats itself over and over.

  5. Pickup at warehouse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That will be my delivery option for people buying from my webshop from outside my country. Or perhaps a special €500 delivery service.

    How will it not be that easy for others to circumvent?

  6. It's the INTERnet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Erecting artificial barriers goes against its very purpose and limits its usefulness.

    1. Re:It's the INTERnet by alvinrod · · Score: 1

      This has nothing to do with the internet itself and is merely a byproduct of European countries having economies of varying strength. You could get the exact same situation without an internet and people placing orders over the phone or through the mail.

      Personally I don't mind the move. I think trying to create artificial barriers to commerce is just as silly for essentially the same reasons you suggest. Yes, there will be some short term pain and grumbling as things change, but it's not the end of the world.

    2. Re:It's the INTERnet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Erecting artificial barriers goes against its very purpose and limits its usefulness."

      You are woefully ignorant about the history of the Internet. For the first three decades or so, Commercial use was strongly discouraged and actually banned in some regions. Some small-scale sales were allowed, such as with the .forsale Usenet hierarchy in some Countries, modeled on the Ham Radio Swapnets, but there were no other authorized ads.
      After the NSF in the US relaxed its rules against Commercial use there did the decline rapidly happen, with the Canter and Siegel obnoxious and massive Spamming proving you could not only make money off of an up to then Non-Commercail Internet, they would face no legal repercussions for doing so.

      "Erecting artificial barriers validated its very purpose and expanded its usefulness."
      FTFY, twerp.
      Now get lawn my off!

  7. Private eBay sellers? by mccalli · · Score: 2

    Interesting - what if I'm trying to sell on eBay, can I no longer say "will post to UK only"? I'm not a merchant, just a private seller who auctions the odd thing off.

    (Obviously switch for any EU country there - the question is general.)

    1. Re:Private eBay sellers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Companies will no longer be able to re-direct consumers to a country-specific website without their consent. However, consumers will still have to organize how to pick up a product if the company does not offer cross-border delivery. "
      So yes you can still do that.

    2. Re:Private eBay sellers? by EvilSS · · Score: 3, Interesting
      FTA:

      However, consumers will still have to organize how to pick up a product if the company does not offer cross-border delivery.

      --
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    3. Re:Private eBay sellers? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Private sellers will likely be excluded, this only seems to apply to businesses. Obviously the buyer will have to pay more postage.

      Having said that, eBay has a global shipping thing now where as the seller you just post to a local depot in your country. From there eBay handles shipping it overseas, with the buyer paying all the additional costs. It works quite well.

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    4. Re:Private eBay sellers? by mccalli · · Score: 1

      Thanks. I should have phrased slightly differently - do I still need to sell to an entity outside of my country?

      At the moment I can decide as a private seller that I don't want the hassle of international dealings, whereas it looks like I can't do that anymore, whereas now it looks like someone could buy it, say they'll arrange collection etc. and then simply not do so (and yes, I've had that happen in the past which is why I stopped offering sales internationally).

    5. Re:Private eBay sellers? by EvilSS · · Score: 1

      The article really didn't say. I would imagine it wouldn't apply to private sellers not running a business selling on ebay (just selling your random crap on ebay) but it's the EU so it's hard to say how they will view it. They could try to apply it to eBay as a whole, forcing ebay to say sellers can't georestrict.

      --
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    6. Re:Private eBay sellers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting - what if I'm trying to sell on eBay, can I no longer say "will post to UK only"?

      You can when we leave. Many smaller retailers and most micro businesses would prefer not to deal with EU VAT rules. Bunch of fucking clowns.

    7. Re:Private eBay sellers? by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Interesting - what if I'm trying to sell on eBay, can I no longer say "will post to UK only"? I'm not a merchant, just a private seller who auctions the odd thing off.

      (Obviously switch for any EU country there - the question is general.)

      This legislation is only for large retailers who use geoblocking on their websites.

      You'll be perfectly safe as there is no law requring you to ship to the whole of the EU, you just cant block someone in Romania from seeing it (which you already cant do with fleabay).

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  8. Airline Ticket Prices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I will believe it when I see it.
    Same for Europass tickets that are cheaper when purchased in France.
    Travel insurance, Health Insurance... interesting.
    Cost is a function of consumer protection laws as well.

    1. Re:Airline Ticket Prices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The so called intangible barriers and market incompatibilities. These of course are on the long term roadmap for the EU, and can only be achieved by normalising these through EU-wide 'federal' laws. Little wonder the UK wanted out with the Tory leaning England despising grand socialism that they would be subject to, and it will be interesting to see how the particularly protectionist countries like France fight this.

    2. Re:Airline Ticket Prices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tory leaning England despising grand socialism

      Huh, I'm a left leaning liberal and I despise the big government, central planned economy the EU has become. It's a criminal theft of wealth from every nation state in the EU and every time we've seen this before it's ended in disaster. Some people really should fuck off to live in their socialist paradise (ie: Venezuela) and leave the rest of us alone.

    3. Re:Airline Ticket Prices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huh, I'm a left leaning liberal and I despise the big government, central planned economy the EU has become.

      How can one despise something that doesn't exist?

    4. Re:Airline Ticket Prices by dave420 · · Score: 1

      You're cute.

    5. Re:Airline Ticket Prices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some people really should fuck off to live in their socialist paradise (ie: Venezuela) and leave the rest of us alone.

      Unfortunately Jeremy Corbyn's not listening. Even more unfortunately he seems intent on aping the efforts of his buddy Maduro, and continues to insist that somebody else will pay for it, so it's ok. I'm no fan of Maggie Thatcher, but every time Corbyn or McDonnell open their mouths, I'm very much reminded of that famous Maggie quote.

    6. Re:Airline Ticket Prices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't know as I only despise things that clearly do exist -- like the EU's central planning. Unfortunately for you, they no longer have a butter mountain that'll help you treat this burn.

    7. Re:Airline Ticket Prices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think the EU is 'big government', what do you think of the national governments?

    8. Re:Airline Ticket Prices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think the EU is 'big government', what do you think of the national governments?

      Not much. Institutions of state should be as small as possible and their employees should be accountable to the taxpayer. That's not the situation in the EU. Why would EU civil servants require immunity unless they know what they are doing is criminal?

  9. so 3pm games can be viewed in the UK under this? by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    so 3pm games can be viewed in the UK under this? Non local sat dishes with cheaper plans?

  10. End of geoblocking != Geo-based pricing ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    TFA only mentions making products equally available across the bloc, nothing about equal pricing.

    Although it mentions copyright content is exempt e.g. Apple iTunes, since they (Apple et al.) argued it could lead to increased prices in weaker markets within the bloc. Perhaps this implies equal pricing across the bloc for non-exempt products, I don't know - if not, then I expect to see wider availability but geo-based pricing for products instead. Which probably defeats what they're trying to do with introducing this type of legislation. Then it doesn't matter if you try to browse the site as seen by another country, it will still serve you prices based on /your/ location, not where you are looking.

    It pains me but I have to agree with the likes to Apple about how this will cause increased prices if it really is trying to end price disparity as well. I don't see why this argument wouldn't apply to any other product either, and not just for digital services.

  11. CARS by cloud.pt · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Yeah. While they don't apply this to actual car purchases (read: not rentals), it still won't be a single market.

    The fact cars are taxed differently when bought in different EU countries, yet are forced to pay many of taxes again when one person decides to move the car between countries in a more permanent fashion, especially when the move is closest to purchase date. Which is really awkward when you think that at the very least, emission taxes should be homogenous across the EU, which apparently they are NOT.

    Currently, if you buy a car on another member of the EU, and you plan to bring that car to your country up to 6 months in of the purchase, you have to pay VAT over the car TWICE. Even if that car was purchased used. And when 6 months go by, you still have to pay a lot of taxes other than VAT for permanent legalization. Obviously due to these regulations (which are NOT very characteristic of a single market), things like same-model cars having upwards of 50% cost difference in across countries is pretty fucking common. It is actually one of the reasons why MANY in my country move to central Europe and work there for 2 to 10 years - specifically to amass salaries and expensive goods that are much more expensive in gross price but critically higher priced when local purchasing power is taken into account.

    I actually have friends that have moved to a country for a year or two in order to purchase cars there, one for them, another for their parners, then proceeded to use special rules that ONLY apply to long-term migrants to bring the car with them on return "for free". They basically made 3 times their salary in the stay, and bought cars that cost 2 years of saving at half price which is pretty much another year of "proffit" when compared to being in the origin.

    Well, but at least we can go back and forth freely and use cars in any country as we please without legal implications.

  12. Re:so 3pm games can be viewed in the UK under this by TheCastro1689 · · Score: 1

    From TFA:

    The proposal does not extend to copyright-protected content, which includes music streaming services such as Spotify and Apple’s iTunes, electronic books, television series and movies.

  13. Postage costs need to be uniform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To make it work, they need to make postage costs uniform otherwise you got practically the same thing with postage cost controlling the red tape instead of red tape.

    1. Re: Postage costs need to be uniform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dhl sends stuff for pretty much the same fee over eu.

  14. this is garbage. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it dont matter a few percent here or there.
    french people dont learn german. germans dont learn english and so on. so how is a swedish guy going to buy stuff from a polish webshop even if it is 10% cheeper. he will never find the product to begin with. so removing technical geoblocking dont remove the language blocking when most of the people in big euro countries cant be botherd to learn 8 or 10 languages. well not even english to be honest.