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Ajit Pai and the FCC Want It To Be Legal for Comcast To Block BitTorrent (theverge.com)

Nilay Patel, reporting for The Verge: FCC Chairman Ajit Pai released his proposal to kill net neutrality this week, and while there's a lot to be unhappy with, it's hard not to be taken with the brazenness of his argument. Pai thinks it was a mistake for the FCC to try and stop Comcast from blocking BitTorrent in 2008, thinks all of the regulatory actions the FCC took after that to give itself the authority to prevent blocking were wrong, and wants to go back to the legal framework that allowed Comcast to block BitTorrent.

24 of 553 comments (clear)

  1. Ports by hackwrench · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Are ports really necessary, because this sounds like it will just result in all sessions being routed over port 80 and a cat and mouse game of avoiding deep packet inspection.

  2. It would be okay if competition actually existed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When you have only 1 or at best 2 Internet providers available, you don't have competition.

    Society's use of and dependence on the Internet has gotten to the point where the Internet needs to be a separate non-profit utility entity.

    Comcast needs to go back to being a cable TV / entertainment company.

    The fix will be VPNs to 3rd party proxies.

  3. BitTorrent vs. Guns by jmcbain · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Serious question here. What's the difference between these arguments?
    1. You shouldn't ban BitTorrent. It's just a protocol. Just because some people use it to steal digital content doesn't mean BitTorrent is inherently bad.
    2. You shouldn't ban guns. It's just a device. Just because some people use it to kill innocents doesn't mean guns are inherently bad.

    1. Re:BitTorrent vs. Guns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There you go again, using logic with Republicans. They very strongly believe in one thing, until they don't. It's the same with Federal power vs State's rights. The GOP takes both sides of that argument depending on the issue.

    2. Re:BitTorrent vs. Guns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      For example, I use Resilio to sync *MY* files between computers. It uses the bittorrent software.

    3. Re:BitTorrent vs. Guns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wrong argument. You are anthropomorphizing the guns.

      BitTorrent cannot harm anyone permanently in any way and certainly cannot be used to take a person's life. BitTorrent is a tool that is *used* to move data around and to "store" that data in a distributed way.

      Guns are a tool *used* both to protect and to harm.

      In both cases it is the actor or user that determines the merit of that tools' use. Their impact on society is very different though. It is the larger impacts that legislation or bans are meant to deal with. If people could handle both responsibly there would be no need to regulate or ban anything.

      At the heart of both problems is the fact that people are unable to use their tools with the appropriate responsibility and care. The other problem is the uneven involvement of large lobbies that perverts the conversation. Have fun trying to solve either of those problems...

    4. Re:BitTorrent vs. Guns by ilsaloving · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except that's not the what the arguments are.

      A more accurate version would be:
      1. You shouldn't ban guns. It's just a device. Just because some people use it to kill innocents doesn't mean guns are inherently bad.
      2. You shouldn't deregulate the ENTIRE INTERNET just because you don't want a few people to pirate with bittorrent.

      Because that's what his proposed changes will do. Sure, he will get his wish and allow ISPs to arbitrarily block bittorrent. But only a truly naive and ignorant person would think that that would be the extent of it.

      Giving the major ISPs the ability to control whatever strikes their fancy would give them the ability to go godfather on the internet. You want people to be able to access your site/service at a reasonable speed/at all? Better pay a fee. Both you AND the end user. Why? Cause fuck you we can, that's why. They will be able to hold literally every internet facing small business over a barrel. Gee, that's a nice business you got there. Would be a shame if people couldn't get to it any more.

      Not only that, but free speech goes right out the window cause they would be able to arbitrarily block whatever strikes their fancy. They've already demonstrated in the past that they would happily do so before NN provisions were in place. If you think it's bad enough that Twitter or Facebook or Reddit arbitrarily censors users, imagine companies that have absolutely nothing to do with those services doing the same thing. It's like a mailman denying your ability to receive mail from a particular business cause they happen to not like that business.

      The internet has basically become a utility so critical that it's almost impossible to go without, so the ISPs will be able to jack up rates because they know you have no choice but to pay or lose access to a massive variety of services that no longer even have physical equivalents anymore. Imagine having to pay an extra electricity surcharge because you want to hang neon decorations from your window? Imagine having to pay extra gas surcharges because your basic package only allows you go to work and buy groceries, but you want to take your kids to the local amusement park? That's the ridiculous situation you are risking with your internet connectivity without Net Neutrality.

    5. Re:BitTorrent vs. Guns by CaptainDork · · Score: 1, Insightful

      One is addressed in the US Constitution?

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  4. Re:Next step by burtosis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Step 3: Block VPNs.

  5. Good question by mnmn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's actually a good question. Bittorrent and guns are both tools that are enablers for crime. Banning the tool instead of the crime affects legitimate use of the tool by law-abiding citizens.

    Here's the difference:

    The law is supposed to allow as much freedom as is possible, up to a certain extent. It then puts up a wall even for legitimate uses once the chance of damage has gone high enough. You can legalize hand grenades for recreational use too, or how about selling plutonium for educational purposes. Plutonium doesn't kill people, people kill people. But at that point the chance of damage is so high, basically screw it all and ban it, even for legitimate uses.

    This balance was moved with flights where sharp objects and liquids are banned.

    On the flip side, a baseball bat can kill a person, and so can riding a bicycle without a helmet. But at this stage, damage potential is relatively small and personal freedoms are important. Instead of trying to put in a sliding scale for everything (bats of certain sizes, faster bicycles, similar to liquid amounts for flights), it's just better to leave personal freedoms be, because a cyclist falling or an angry person with a bat cannot kill dozens of people.

    This is why knives are legal to own, hand grenades are not, and guns of different sizes/capacities is where that threshold lies. With this argument, I believe assault/automatic rifles, high capacity magazines have been proven to cause excessive damage compared to the rights and personal freedoms of wanting such firearms. This is in contrast to say bolt action hunting rifles with 5 rounds. And certainly illegally downloading movies and music which you most likely would not be paying for anyway (and impact the financial earnings of artists by a small amount), is far far away from this threshold.

    --
    "Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
    1. Re:Good question by Neo-Rio-101 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Banning the tool instead of the crime affects legitimate use of the tool by law-abiding citizens.

      The difference with guns - especially the assault types obtainable in the US - is that they have no legitimate use.
      You would have to define killing other people as legitimate for you to be able to use that argument with guns.

      --
      READY.
      PRINT ""+-0
    2. Re:Good question by Loki_1929 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The difference with guns - especially the assault types obtainable in the US - is that they have no legitimate use.
      You would have to define killing other people as legitimate for you to be able to use that argument with guns.

      Self defense is not a legitimate use? You don't believe in self defense? Just lay down and die?

      --
      -- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
    3. Re:Good question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you bother to look even further, and read the Federalist Papers

      Indeed. in Federalist 29, Hamilton wrote:

      Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.

      So, lets make membership in a local militia with regular exercises a requirement for gun ownership.

    4. Re:Good question by Baron_Yam · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > And the Amendment was specifically for enabling the overthrow of a tyrannical government, as well as having the population armed in case of foreign invasion.

      Those purposes no longer apply. You're not going to get through the cops, the FBI, the ATF, the national guard, the reserves, and the US military to overthrow your government. And if a foreign force gets by the world-supreme US military, no gun you carry will make a lick of difference.

      >Self defense is also an entirely valid purpose.

      Only because the bad guys also have guns. If they didn't (or had them less frequently) you wouldn't need one. There are quite a few Western countries that have had a great amount of success with those types of policies.

      > So yes, killing people is absolutely defined as a legitimate reason to own guns, as it should be.

      If you're in law enforcement or security, sure. Other than that it should be hunting and the range, because the more people walking around thinking they're Rambo, the more dangerous society gets.

    5. Re:Good question by Altrag · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't believe self defense is a legitimate use. Not because I don't believe you shouldn't have the right to defend yourself, but because if your attacker is constantly worried that you'll pull a gun, they're going to be damned sure to pull theirs first. Either way, someone ends up shot and possibly killed. And since the attacker is usually the one with the opening advantage, the risk that you get killed in such a scenario becomes higher in a gun-prevalent society. Its the same story you hear about cops over and over again -- they don't want to risk anyone they stop pulling a gun on them so they make sure to shoot first when you make even the slightest misstep at even the most benign traffic stop.

      Of course, being the one guy who doesn't have a gun in a gun-prevalent society is a problem also, making the US gun troubles significantly harder to solve -- its a downward spiral of violence that's extremely difficult to climb back up. You buy a gun because you're scared of a robber. So your neighbor buys a gun because he's scared of you. So his boss buys a gun because he's scared the employee will go ham some day. So the other employees buy guns in case the boss goes ham. So all their neighbors buy guns.

      And at the end of the day you have dozens or hundreds of gun purchases out there based on one individual's fear of a situation they may or may not ever encounter, which ends up increasing the risk that they will encounter it because that 6-degree neighbor of a guy who's boss hired a guy who's neighbor bought a gun.. that guy way at the end of the chain turns out to be the robber that you're now in a shootout with.

    6. Re:Good question by Uberbah · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your post implies that once you are employed, appointed, or elected to the government you are immune from treason charges.

      Where was that, exactly.

      I am so pro-gun gun my brain has ceased to function logically.

      FTFY

      as any government willing to violate the constitution in a flagrant enough manner to rile up the 2nd amendment loving crowd so much that they march on their own politicians would not give two shits about trials, evidence, attorneys, etc.

      Except that crowd is the worst bunch of bed-wetting tough guys on the planet. Talk a good game right up until its time to put their necks on the line, in which case their shit is immediately lost.

      Now, back to the point. The Constitution completely and unequivocally calls bullshit on the gun cultist storyline about the 2nd being about giving citizens the right to fight their government with force.

  6. Re:Good by Aighearach · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Before bittorrent, downloading linux distributions could take days, and it cost the distro money for the server load. With torrents I can download a whole distro in a few minutes! And it doesn't add to the costs of publishing the distro.

  7. Re:Deregulation now works both ways by ilsaloving · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin, but your argument basically boils down to "the free market will fix it".

    And there is more than ample evidence that that flat out will not happen.

    There are still plenty of areas where there is only one provider, sometimes none. Cities that tried to start their own ISPs were sued and forced to abandon their efforts. There are more than enough dirty tactics employed by the encumbant ISPs to make it incredibly difficult for small ISPs to get off the ground, and eliminating net neutrality will just give the existing ISPs that much more power to crush emerging competition.

  8. I'd like to announce my new protocol ByteFlow! by quantaman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's just an arms race, the moment you block BitTorrent someone makes a new protocol. You block that protocol too and they make a 3rd protocol that disguises itself as normal traffic.

    Soon Comcast is gives up entirely, or gets in an arms race with the protocol authors trying to detect P2P traffic with legitimate traffic getting caught in the crossfire.

    --
    I stole this Sig
  9. Re:Good by thegarbz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As a copyright holder, I've been very happy with Agit Pai so far.

    On behalf of all of the internet, fuck you and the horse you rode in on. Your assault against the internet and the platform which you should see as an enabler in the name of a few bad apples should be met in kind. I hope you get what you want.

    I hope your precious Agit Pai enables mega corporations to stamp on your little copyright. May you be screwed over in more ways than you're proposing to screw the common man. God speed.

  10. Re:Next step by burtosis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Step 4: charge additional fees to reinstate corporate VPNs problem solved.

  11. Re: Appcast should block LUDDITE software! by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Talk about an apples to oranges comparison. What the OP is saying is if you have Comcast, most likely you can't get another suitable ISP this no competition. Mobile isn't a viable substitute. Satellite isn't a viable substitute. For many consumers, there isn't another cable company they could use and fiber isn't everywhere.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  12. Re: Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    No, the GOP is reversi a major policy to stick a finger in Obama's eye, and they're doing it because the whole policy was implemented illegally. We should not have cheered when Obama ruled through imperial fiat. We knew a Trump was coming, if not when.

  13. Re:That's the FCC's argument. (Verge is full of sh by Desler · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That's what chairman Pai wrote, that the Comcast and torrents issue should have been addressed under anti-trust and consumer protection laws, rather than the failed way they tried to it, which the court threw out due to lack of legislative authority.

    Except the FTC would have limited powers of enforcement and would essentially be a paper tiger.

    http://thehill.com/blogs/pundi...

    His statement that what they did was a mistake is true almost by definition - the court threw it out.

    The courts threw out the previous version but upheld the current version.

    The FCC isn't Congress, they can't make laws.

    And yet Ajit Pai is making up his own rules all the time. But just like the lie of “judicial activism”, the right is always fine with something as long is it’s for things they like. It’s always “activism” whenever they disagree.