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Patent Trolls Are Losing More. Will America's Supreme Court Change That? (nytimes.com)

jespada writes: New York Times has an article warning that the Patent Appeal and Trial Board is being challenged on the basis that patents represent real property and that a government agency is not empowered to take real property.
Here's a quotes from the Times article. (Non-paywalled version here): In the five years since it began its work -- a result of the America Invents Act of 2011 -- the Patent Trial and Appeal Board has saved companies more than $2 billion in legal fees alone, according to Joshua Landau, patent counsel at the Computer and Communications Industry Association, offering an expeditious and relatively cheap avenue to challenge patents of doubtful validity. The benefits of stopping bad patents from snaking their way through the economy have been even greater. Companies no longer have to pay ransom so the threat of lawsuits over dubious royalty payments -- filed by aggressive litigants known as trolls -- will go away... But for all the benefits of culling faulty intellectual-property rights, the board is under existential threat. Next week, the Supreme Court will hear a challenge that the patent office's new procedure is unconstitutional...

12 of 127 comments (clear)

  1. Property taxes? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 5, Insightful
    If patents are real property, and a company testifies in court that theirs is with a billion dollars, then surely they’ve been paying property taxes on that $1B, right? Because if not, you and I are subsidizing their welfare queen asses by paying our taxes to support the court system that they are using to enforce their “property” rights.

    I don’t want to hear a damn thing from a patent holding company until they show tax returns demonstrating that they’re paying their fair share to maintain the legal system they disproportionately consume.

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    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    1. Re:Property taxes? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Court fees cover a teensy part of the government that protects those rights. I pay all sorts of fees for my home, too, but that doesn’t get me out of paying property taxes on it. As far as I can tell, this is yet another way for corporations to avoid the taxes that the rest of us have to pay.

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      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    2. Re:Property taxes? by BankRobberMBA · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Rather, let's hope sanity breaks out in the SCOTUS and they point out that patents are merely PROTECTIONS GRANTED by the feds. As such, they are not, and cannot ever be, real property.

      This would be a great outcome, both in terms of stopping patent trolls and in terms of eventually simplifying the patent grant/challenge system.

    3. Re:Property taxes? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Exactly, yes. Your damages should be limited to the amount that you declared and paid taxes on.

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      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    4. Re:Property taxes? by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can't believe this was modded up.

      There is no general blanket tax on property in the US. A very limited form of property (real estate, and in very few States cars) are subject to tax, but that absolutely doesn't apply to any asset that has value. Think about it, do you have to declare your Playstation or 3D printer as property and pay the IRS every year?

      So they are not "surely been paying property taxes" and you won't find it on their tax returns because no part of the tax code actually says anything they have to pay anything remotely like this.

      [ FWIW, I'm not even unsympathetic to the idea that we should change the law to have such a tax, depending on lots of details. But to say "how dare they pay a tax that doesn't exist" is placing things complete backwards. ]

  2. I'll accept that logic by king+neckbeard · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'll accept that logic as soon as they also acknowledge that "a government agency is not empowered to create real property," meaning all patents are invalid, and we can shut down the PATB due to it no longer being needed.

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    This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    1. Re:I'll accept that logic by Insanity+Defense · · Score: 4, Informative

      Patents are in the Constitution along with copyrights so they are legal.

    2. Re:I'll accept that logic by king+neckbeard · · Score: 4, Informative

      And in that same clause, the government is legally required to take eventually take them away (that's what "for limited times" means), clearly meaning that they are not property in the terms of the fifth amendment protections they are citing here.

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      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    3. Re:I'll accept that logic by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 4, Informative

      You're mistaking the copyright term (which Congress, in a monumentally bad idea, had repeatedly extended) and patent term, which has been been pretty stable in the 15-21 year range (it's 20 now).

  3. Re:Yes, it will by king+neckbeard · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The entire reason we have any protections against trolls is completely because the big companies get sued by trolls. That's why patent apologists are always making the BS claim that patent reform is just to allow the big guys to rip off the little guys. These reforms are enough to hinder trolls, but not enough to make their massive warchests useless.

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    This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  4. Not going to work by eddeye · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'm a lawyer. I work in this field and have been following this case. It's very unlikely to overturn PTAB trials (known as IPRs).

    The apellant's argument about "real property" is weak. The Supreme Court has held many times that patents are in essence a public right, or at most quasi-private. They haven't ruled on that question explicitly, but that's consistent with all their recent patent rulings (past 30+ years). A ruling against would also upset settled administrative law precedent in many other agencies that have nothing to do with patents. I expect a decision that's 9-0 or 8-1 in favor of PTAB. Not even close.

    The S Ct likely took this case not to overturn the law but to settle the question once and for all. Many patent holders who lose at PTAB appeal to federal court on Constitutional grounds, among other things. This case should finally put those appeals to rest and quit clogging up the lower courts.

    FWIW the best interpretation I've heard is that while the rights to exploit a patent are private property, the scope of the patent itself is a public right. That means the scope is properly subject to administrative adjudication by competent federal agencies such as PTO, while the right to exercise that patent is not. That view is entirely consistent with both the appellant's position that patents are real property (at least in part) and that PTAB trials are constitutional. However I don't expect the S Ct will adopt such a clean distinction, given their lack of expertise in this area.

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    Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch.
  5. Thanks to pj and Groklaw by Cutterman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If the patent trolls have retreated under their bridges and judges and juries are more awake about patent abuse and IP extortion then I think we all owe a great dept of thanks to pj and Groklaw - http://www.groklaw.net/

    Way back in 2003, Darl McBride thought that his company SCO (pretending to be the defunct Santa Cruz Operation) decided on a scan to monetize Linux, through some disputed Novell IP.

    pj, a paralegal, aided by a growing cohort of assistants, tracked down and followed every slimy twist and turn of the multiple cases brought by SCO against Novell, IBM and several others. They dug up so much forgotten information, case-law and witnesses that even the lawyers admitted to using Groklaw as a source.

    Eventually it was decided that Novell did in fact own the IP in question, and "millions of lines of :copied code" turned out to be a couple of headers of no consequence.

    Finally Darl's dreams of wealth beyond belief collapsed and SCO went into bankruptcy.

    The whole saga, and SCO's ultimate ignominious collapse, was a big wake-up call for patent/IP trolls and Groklaw played no small part in it.

    Groklaw stopped in 2013 because their messenger anonymizer was forced to close, but their archives are still online.

    We owe a big dept of thanks to pj and Groklaw

    Mac